Hello All,
One of the things I have been doing since I was about 5 years old was to take great interest in residential construction. When I got into my early teens, I actually started walking onto construction worksites to see ‘how it was all done’. This behavior continues today, and along with a great deal of good construction to see, from time to time I see stuff that puzzles me, surprises me, and once in a great while scares the living daylights out of me.
Case in point. When learn more about the engineered I-Joist products in my home (BCI400s) I learned from Boise-Cascade that any opening in the webbing of the I-Joist should never come within a 1/4-inch of the top and/or bottom stile (flange), otherwise the structural integrity of the I-Joist suffers greatly. This was further confirmed when I spoke with BC on several occasions.
Well, I took this to a point probably being the same condition on all wooden I-Joist products, including those by Georgia Pacific and many others. Common sense seems to say this without having to ask the question–especially when you are one of the subcontractors! This isn’t me I’m talking about (not in construction), but the HVAC sub.
Today I walked onto a worksite for a new subdivision. Aside of going through the normal bits of looking, I ventured into the basement. While I was impressed with what appeared to be a well constructed structure, the HVAC sub did something that bothered me greatly. In trying to recess the tube-conduit for the AC/furnace, openings in the web were made. This in of itself is not a problem, but the HVAC sub cut the opening all the way to the stile (flange)!
This was done not to all, but many of the I-Joist that support the greatroom, breakfast, and kitchen areas. The opening was so large, the absolutely no sqeezing of the conduit’s insulation could be seen (i.e. I think the wholes were accidentally made to big even for the conduit).
I was thinking of letting the agent onsite know about this, but they’d probably simply suggest ignoring the fact as the propert (80% finished) was sold. I do not know if I believe the SOLD sign as every single home under construction was SOLD. Still, the homes future owner will certainly not want to go placing anything heavy in those rooms, like a nice 65″ RPTV (like the one in my greatroom).
What would any of you do in a situation like this?
Replies
I don't know what I'd do, but I know that my inspector would've caught this. He actually measured ours, and we survived one hole by 1/8" (and that was in the middle...one of the other rules about not eating up 1/3 or 1/2 of the depth or something like that). Our plumber and elec just hacked away at them despite me handing them the data sheet and telling them to be careful.
True, about the hacking of the webbing by the electrician and other subs. The BC I-Joists in my home have nothced holes that only need a good single strike with a hammer to knock them out. Instead, the electrician drilled holes right beside them.
Go figure.
Contact the local building department and try to speak with an inspector. Like are occupations there are great varying degrees of competency. Obviously the inspector that looked at this structure didn't understand the requirements of BCI's.
I have a really hard time with answering this one.
No doubt but that the sub screwed up and if it were on my job where I am the general or prop/job manager, he would find himself responsible for the fix. As general, I would make sure it was right for the customer because that is my job.
Maybe he would already know that he made a mistake...
Maybe I was planning to place another partition wall under that spot anyway...
maybe, maybe, maybe,,,,,,,
I don't know.
The general and the inspector have the job of seeing that things are right.
You don't.
If I were in your shoes, I would be spending more time in my garden or walking them to the library. But if your shoes insisted on walking me down into a basement of somebody elses house, I would mind my own business and shut my mouth.
Be careful no one nails you for tresspassing. I infer that you were observing, and aren't one of the trades.
I had the permission of the builder's site-host. Just because I go walking through construction worksites does not mean I do not get permission. In fact, most builders and developers around me look at this as being a method for showing off their work and enticing people to buy--unforunately, this was not a very effective example for case in point.
Some of the reactions seem to come from some wishing to hide potential quality issues in their lives than simply address the problem(s) at hand.
Sounds like the steak's on the grill.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Some of the reactions seem to come from some wishing to hide potential quality issues in their lives than simply address the problem(s) at hand.
You totally misread these folks. They are trying to point out a CHARACTER FLAW IN YOU. Not defend the problem.
If I was the builder and you called the building department I would pursue any legal action possible plus I would serve you with a restraining order. Of course I would also plan on fixing the problem too. And that is why I would be pissed.
You are a busy-body do-gooder who better stay off my jobs.
Edit #1 PS. I will go on the record as saying I think he is wrong in what the spec sheets say. If I am wrong prove it by using a direct quote from a current spec sheet.
Edit #2 I personally deleted my other posts in this thread. I was right in what I said but not how I said it. My apologies.
Edited 8/13/2002 11:43:36 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
Edited 8/13/2002 11:45:26 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
Edited 8/13/2002 11:46:16 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
Ya know Warrior, some day I'd like to take the day off and go to the workplace of one of these busy bodies and just walk in a make myself comfortable at their desk.
Start going through all their papers and correct them with red markers. Call their boss and tell him that you've found some items that may be illegal and you're going to copy IRS, just in case.
Fill up my arms with some of their files because it's used paper of course and if it's just lying around, it means that it's there for the taking.
Oh I forgot, I'll ask the groundskeeper for permission to enter.
Ya that works,
Gabe
"Male bovine feces."
LMAO
Trying hard to avoid being banned again, Gabe???
I guess maybe I've over done myself with this jerk. Ooops, is jerk a four letter wurd?Excellence is its own reward!
You were apparently running around where you didn't have permission to be. My suggestion would be to stay out of outher people's houses and mind your own business.
If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn?
Actually I had the permission of the site host (builder's agent). In fact, I do not know of any developer in North Georgia that once a house has reached a rough-in stage does not allow people to walk-through provided the necessary safety features are in place (hand rails, stairs, 3/4-project clean-up, etc.).
So, Boss, you a) made the wrong assumption about me and the situation (I had permission), and b) the house was still the builder's property (i.e. no closing yet). Are you a builder, Boss?
Maybe I made the wrong assumption about why you were in the house. But you didn't provide that in your 1st post.
I don't have much use for people who wander through other people's houses during construction just to be nosey. But I'll give you credit for asking permission first.
I still maintain that this isn't really any of your business.
Don't know if I'm a builder or not. I consider myself an expert on selling low quality, fast selling spec houses, though. (You'll find out the truth if you hang around here anough)
I poured Spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.
Boss, the reason why I mentioned that I thought the SOLD sign may be untrue was that the host more than welcomed me to go into the homes. This was on a Sunday and no subs were working, the home was still owned by the builder, and the builder's rep gave permission.
With all this in mind, how is it not my business? My wife and I are still weighing the necessary evils of our next home (custom built vs. modified spec home) and one way we can get a feel for a builder/developer is to have a look at their work. This being a brand new development (about 8-10 homes, between 50 and 80% complete), we got the permission and had a look around.
How is it not any of my business as a potential buyer? Please explain. Also, as far as I was told (by the builder of my current home), even homes under contract are typically Open to the public until closing (my current home was Open to the public right up until closing).
Hey, I will admit, though, that I did find one builder/developer in the last year that is nuts about quality. He is out of Texas, building in Georgia, sells homes with a hell of a lot of quality, and gets down into the grit with respect to construction. The host and I stumbled upon the owner of the company putting in trim one day--I guess he likes to 'work' and he was very encouraging about having me have a look around. I may see if this individual will custom build for me in the near future.
The two important facts are that a: you had permission to be there b: you have knowledge on performance of the engineered piece of lumber in question c: you observed the gross missuse of that engineered lumber. Having been given permission to be there allows you to critique the job. Some may say that with your knowledge you have a resposibility to warn people of the potential danger. I believe an engineer should make the final call. I don't think you are crying wolf. I might even consider calling the local builing inspector to see what he knows about them and then drop it on him what you saw.
There are a lot of old threads here on jobsite security concerns (try the search feature if you're interested). It seems a common problem across the nation that people feel they have the right to walk around unannounced on job sites, which poses obvious security/liability concerns for builders.
It's great that you got permission first, I think you just hit a nerve of many peoples concern (unfounded in this case apparently).
I don't think this is an assertion that people want to keep you out to hide shoddy work. Then they'd have to call this place "Quick and Crappy Homebuilding" ;)
I think you ought to contact the inspector and tell him you are "mad as hell" because he is not doing his job and letting violations slip by and you are going to be spot checking his houses in the future, Oh and while your there you might want to pull permits for your new home since the inspector all ready knows your name .With your experience from early childhood maybe you should become an inspector, all you have to do is read "the" book and you can say " I are one" . We are just mere mortals Cmon out and play.
Nails, what seems to be your problem? I'm not saying I am not tolerant of subs making mistakes or inspectors overlooking something. We are all human, including you! But, this observation did scare me and I thought it wise to ask others for how they would have handled the observation.
I'm not looking to admonish someone, but to ask if I should FYI the builder, inspector, etc. as this condition was questionable and may need a second look by some interested party. I know that if this were my house being built I'd certainly to be thankful if someone else caught the condition if I did not.
Of course, more builders need people like Nails to draw a defense first than offer reasonable options for reporting the problem so no one gets possibly hurt.
Must admit I agree with the other guys on this one. If there's one thing that get's my shorts in a knot is someone's friend's brother-in-law or somesuch, who used to be a builder or knows one, coming on my jobsite (especially when I'm not around) critiquing the quality or technique of the construction.
The cry of "mind your own business" seems inappropriate in this situation. If you are at an auto repair shop, and see a car in the parking lot with the lugnuts loose (believe me, it happens), should you assume that the mechanic knows what he's doing, and not mention it?
It is not an attack on the builder's integrity to *politely* bring a possible major safety issue to his attention.
Dave
I guess my last post to this thread was too direct so it got censored by the bland police so I will try to get my point across the long way.
The project has an individual called the site superintendent. He or she is the only one that can give you permission to enter the site. No realtor, no sub, no supplier, no one but the super.
To enter the site without his or her permission is disrespectful and you are trespassing to not obtain it first.
That person is responsible for the site and all the people who enter it.
Sidewalk superintendents are not recognized as qualified construction professionals. They are a hazzard on any site.
Gabe
You are wrong. Most builders give their sales people the right to enter and sell their property even during construction (how else do you avoid all of the extra finance charges unless you sell before completion). The real point is that this guy may have found a very real problem and all you can do is bitch about that he is not authorized to be on the job site. Give me a break. He should contact the builder and share his concern. I would not contact the building department unless the issues were not resolved. Sidewalk supers sure, ignore them, but this guy seems to have some knowledge and the builder should respond.
ARCHYII, I would also tend to agree. The builder is not 100% finished developing the subdivision where I am now and the realtor has that authority. Of course, I do not expect this to be the case everywhere, not even in the same city. I do know the builder for the subdivision I am in now has been seen about 3 times in the last 20 months, as the super (host) and realtor open, show, etc. the properties.
As it is, I get the feeling that the anger Gabe has would still be there even if I had been lucky enough to speak to the builder himself and gotten the same permission. Gabe seems to just not like potential buyers 'noticing' potential problems. So far, he has completely ignored the potential problem and certainly offered no constructive means to politely reporting it to anyone--maybe he'd prefer it kept gone unnoticed.
Male bovine feces.
An architect doesn't set foot on my project unless he or she has my permission to do so. And once you are allowed to enter you will wear proper attire c/w safety boots and hard hat. NO ONE IS EXCEMPT. We have rules and you will follow them.
Any prior arrangements, decided upon by the builder and his representatives with the realtor of record, normally allows for the entry of prospective clients during certain times of the day or weekends. It does not allow for sidewalk superintendents to freely roam and interfere with construction.
This individual, is not a client. He was trespassing and that's a fact.
If he would have stepped on a nail, he would be the first to sue the builder for negligence.
Good builders have quality control mechanisms in place and code violations are rectified as part of an ongoing process.
If this is a fly by nite contractor working for a greedy developer, they still have to satisfy building officials, banks and client's lawyers.
Our industry doesn't need a savior. It's a model that others would be well advised to follow instead of whinning about.
Gabe
Male bovine feces (back to you or perhaps female bovine feces since your so cranky)
I did miss read his first post and I thought that he was there with a reality agent. The story keeps changing. But I do believe that you are wrong about access to a construction site. The owner and his/hers agents (architects, engineers etc.) have the right to access the site. You may set the conditions (hard hat, safety glasses,etc.) but you cannot deny access unless your contract specifically states that you can. A typical contract also states that the owners can hire his own separate contractors to perform work on your job site (kitchen contractors, window blinds, security, A/V, etc.). They do have to follow your rules. The original poster did post an interesting issue. If you notice something wrong how should you proceed. On a large (and many times small) project the super does not see all of the problems or issues.
Archy, I think we all agree that such a problem should be reported up the proper chain of authority. Problem here was that kartman was so far outside any authority that he didn't even exist!Excellence is its own reward!
Where do you get this cranky thing?
I'll throw him off the site and not even frown.
In residential, more often than commercial, there are real superintendents and make believe superintendents.
I'm referring to real superintendents in my comments.
You may not be familiar with this person so I will take the liberty to introduce him or her to you.
This person is a trained professional, takes pride in his project, brings it in on time and on budget. This person puts the quality of the project first and will not allow anyone to compromise that quality.
If the owners interfere with this objective, they have the honor of finishing the project without him. He will resign before handing over an inferior building.
He is responsible for all the men and women who work on his project and he puts their safety above all. No project is successful if a life is lost achieving it.
Architects, engineers, consultants and inspectors will respect his position at site by entering his trailer office before entering the site and they will ask his permission to enter the site.
Most trades share that pride and are responsible at site.
These individuals who make up a construction team have nothing in common with hacks and construction wantabees.
If you're an architect, learn the difference between the two.
Now in our discussions, the subject of trespassers and nosy busy bodies was examined and commented on. Are you saying that trespassers have a place on busy construction sites?
Competence to comments was also discussed. Are you saying that a site visitor is more competent to give an opinion on engineered joists than a qualified building official?
What makes anyone think that if there was a code violation, that it wasn't going to be picked up as part of the normal ongoing inspection process?
Trades are made up by people and people, as individuals, make mistakes but people as a group, fix mistakes.
Gabe
Very good reply Gabe, especially the tag, "Trades are made up by people and people, as individuals, make mistakes but people as a group, fix mistakes"
Excellence is its own reward!
Gabe and Piffin, the two of you apparantly aren't aware of common practices here in GA. The way you run your own sites and the way many if not most subdivisions here in the metro Atlanta area could quite possibly be very different. There are also frequent problems with code violations and dishonest builders here. Many are using illegal labor and many will cut any corner they can. When I had my house built I was there for much of what went on and saw plenty of it first hand. The framing inspection took all of 20 minutes. That is on a house/workshop with a total of 8,000 sq ft enclosed and 4500 finished. You can't tell me that the inspector was looking very closely. It is common practice in the Golf Course subdivision down the street for finished homes/near finished homes to be open for anyone to look at and it is encouraged by the agents on site. If I were looking at homes in that subdivision I would not hesitate to go right in and look at them. Sorry, but with the current building environment her there is no way I would trust the builders to correct damage done by subs. It is far too commonplace here to find shotty work on 400k-500k homes. Sad but true.
Tom, I'm just curious about the rationale of having a custom sized house built in a run of the mill housing subdivision by some average building contractor.
To me, a standard house is under 2000 sq. ft., most under 1500 sq. ft.
Spending a half million to buy a 5,000 sq. ft. production built house in any subdivision defies logic.
Why would you have bought a custom priced home, off the rack at walmarts?
Again, just being curious.
Gabe
Depends on the housing market as to price.
A house across the street from me, 30+ year old split, 2000sq ft sold within the past 6 months for $285K.
spec houses in the $400K-500K area are not out of the norm around here (outside Boston, ma), I might even be low in that estimate.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
We've got a mess of em here too but it's the why part I'm curious about.
Would you buy a 1000 dollar suit off the rack at walmarts?
Gabe
Gabe,
It blows my mind on the price of housing, I don't know why people do what they do. except they have little choice.
A spec house went up on a very busy corner of the main street in my town. The lot is very steep. Getting into and out of the driveway is going to be a nightmare. But it sold!
I'd like to move but wouldn't be able to afford anything.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Gabe, I didn't build one in a subdivision, it is on acreage. The fact is that custom sized homes are common in subdivisions here in the 400-500k price range and quality is no better than the starter tract homes. I don't know why people are attracted to such homes but they are the norm here. The average homebuyer knows nothing about construction and is easily taken advantage of. Quality construction here is the exception, not the norm. All the homes in that golf course I spoke of use the lowest efficiency HVAC systems available. Is that good for the consumer. I don't think so.
Finding a quality builder is difficult at best here. I know of at least five people personally who ended up with leins on their property and lawsuits against them because of builders who filed bankruptcy in the middle of their homes and didn't pay subs with the money they had been paid. I know of at least two builders who are/were being prosecuted for such actions and were building homes again in other counties. There is no way to track dishonest builders.
Tom,
Is there such a thing in your State as a registered home warranty program. One in which the builders have to show competence, financial stability before they are allowed to build?
Gabe
I don't know if a program like that is available or not. I think the biggest problem here is that growth has been so explosive that corruption and greed are a big problem in new home construction with quality taking a back seat.
Tom,
Have a look at our system of home warranty and tell me what you think of it.
http://www.newhome.on.ca/about/
Gabe
I'm not trying to insense or cause rage here, but let me ask a question:
If I wanted to hire one of you guys for my house, would you have a problem with YOU personally showing me around one of your current sites? I'd think all of you would be proud of your work and stand by it...and would be proud to show it off.
I'm somewhat surprised to hear how everyone is ragging on this guy for asking about a potential real issue.
As a reader and subscriber to Fine Homebuilding, the magazine and the techniques...and you are all too...I'd think you'd all say anyone can look and criticize your work anyday.
My folks are paying lots of money to have a house built...we stopped by last weekend. My wife has been sanding, pre-staining, staining, polyurethaning, sanding, more poly etc all the windows in our new house. Bitches with every stroke....BUT she walked into my folks new house, built by "professionals", and all the trim was rough (never sanded), stained without prestained and looks HORRIBLE, drips and runs in all the poly, etc. The painting has big globs...the tectured ceilings have big globs (out of tecture)...the wall paper seams can be seen from a mile away. Personally, I feel very bad for them (mom and dad) but they seem to be rather happy...so I don't say things to cause problems. Structural, the LVL's were set in concrete pockets without any treated lumber or barrier beneath...they did some really crazy insulation thing in the basement...like insulating only the top 2/3 of the wall with unfaced fiberglass, then covered it all with a poly tarp...because code required 6' below grade to be insulated (why no polysytrene....leave the bottom 2' exposed????)
All sorts of things...and far as I can tell, my parents (especially Mom) has ALWAYS been talked out of what she wants by her builder. I feel bad for them...but don't dare say anything that has then become unhappy with what they have.
I'm just surprised to hear you guys not stand by your work...or feel like folks should stand by there work. Yes, there are insurance issues of a visit...would you ask the GC if you could bring me on-site to show me your job?
Bruce,
let's not confuse anyone with a genuine interest in the house, inspecting and commenting to the builder.
What this guy represented was a nosy trespasser and nothing else.
Somebody has a house that they're going to build, or is building and or is buying, comes to this forum and asks legitimate questions, I think it would be fair to say that they get good advise to choose from. By and by, they are treated with respect.
Let's not loose sight of the fact that this fellow might not have a clue as to what are good building practices vs bad construction. He just came across as a want to be building expert.
Gabe
Pingerbruce, you mis the point. I am pleased to show off my work to anyone and if they catch something I did wrong... hey... they just did me a favor and I thank them (it has happened as I am not perfect even though I try)
But I would run this guy off so quick he wouldn't know what happened. he is a better-than-thou busy-body and has no place on any job.
Besides... nobody has confirmed that there even WAS a problem. I have a hunch what he saw was entirely up to specs and legal although I can't prove it. I do notice no one has answered my challenge to say it was in fact wrong.
PS. Your story about your folks makes me mad. Sounds like some hacks built their house. Sorry to hear that.
I don't think Kartman is outta line at all...I like checking out constuction sites ,too, and just because my eyaes are open shuldn't make me an interloping a s s h o l e, in the trades or not.
But, as some of the more levelheaded have advised, during constuction is exactly that...but the guy's got a legitimate question,you see something you know is wrong, what are you going to do? I'd go to the builder first... if he doesn't deal wih it come back for the next installment(You gonna feel real great if the house falls down on a little kid?)...personally, I like visitors on the jobsite(unless they have kids that can't keep their hands in their pockets, had problems there) most have generated other jobs, or we get to make clear the job at hand...come on site where I'm working, see something funky,let's talk...I hire folks, sometimes they think less is better,we'll straighten things out...some of you folks freak me out with the shut up and go away attitude...I always want to do better work, if a pedestrian can help it's better than paying a consultant...and when did a consultant ever get you any work? Kartman' s a threat? I don't see that, and I've see some wacked out folks...sorry, I see this guy as more of an asset...even if he can't spell)
whacked.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
I dislike his attitude and that is enough.
I am total alignment with you BB.
My first response to go to the building inspector may have been a little short sighted though. You certainly wouldn't make any friends that way. However, I bet the contrator that would allow a sub to destroy his work would probably allow such a problem to slip-bye if he could get away with it.
How would you all deal with a sub that destroyed your work. I'd say that It looks poorly on you if you can't hire professional subs.........Right!!
I'd make sure the body didn't float.
Dale
That program looks fine but I don't see it happening here anytime soon. There are no licensing regulatios to be a builder here. All you have to do is say I am a builder andyou are one. I don't know what this has to do with the original thread though. The guy saw potentially serious problems on a nearly finished home and most of the people here jumped on him. The fact is there ain't alot of Fine Homebuilding going on here even at prices that should warrant it.
The jumping on him was brought on by him.
Time to be an activist Tom.
Print out a copy of the Act along with the introduction. Make copies of it and mail it to all the homeowner and condominium associations in your State along with a suggestion that they mail a copy to their State Reps. and demand protection.
Next you and your friends get more copies and mail them to every activist group in your State.
Last on the mailing list is a copy to every city building official in the State with a request for comment and support.
Make a point to remind them that election time can be a renewal time.
Gabe
Who knows, you may be the one to make a difference........
All right I am sick of people blaming builders for "using the cheapest A/C possiable", buyers are responsable for this, they do not care about quality as a whole its ALL PRICE. That is why only build custom now, for the small percentage of the public that care and can afford it. How many times have you heard "I am only going to stay here for a few years", "we are about to sell the house, it just needs to look a little better" etc. etc.
If you want to educate and do someone a service talk to your fellow home buyers, dont complain about the builders that are building what the common idiot wants.
P.S. Twenty minutes for a trained inspector that inspects framing day in and day out is a longg time.
The homes with the systems I am talking about are marketed as quality homes. They are not custom homes and the HVAC systems installed in them are not really an upgradeable item. I had my house built larger than what these homes are, using better materials and geothermal HVAC for half what they are asking for them so you can't tell me that there isn't some room for better systems. There is NO effort whatsoever by the builders to educate buyers as to what a more efficient system can do for them. My builder tried at every turn to talk me out of geothermal in favor of his regular HVAC crew. I had seen their work and would never use them. Most his subs were excellent.
I may agree with you on the framing inspection if he actually looked at anything but most of that 20 min was spent talking to the builder about other projects. He never went upstairs or looked at the roof framing. He never so much as glanced at the cut outs in the I Joists for HVAC and never went in the basement of my shop. Hard to inspect framing that you don't look at isn't it??
Tom
I have never met any one in business that would market there Widgit as a "low quality widgit". Every home is QUALITY HOME, but owners need to educate themselves to what a SEER rating is, or hire someone that will do it for them. There are plenty of builders, architects, etc that would love to work with intelligent owners. We generally get pushed by the way side, when you are told sure i can build it for $65 a foot. Greed set in and we are not considered for the project.
And last time I checked this was AMERICA, and a builder(myself included) is entitled to charge as much as they can for there products. So as long the consumer doesn't care what type of "STUFF" is in the attic, why should a builder cut into his "smaller than you think" profit margin. Because it is a QUALITY home that has room in the price for Upgraded "Stuff" I don't think so.
This is not the way I do business, but I'm the type that doesn't blame the drug dealer for selling drugs,
It the Idiot that buys them.
Edited 8/14/2002 10:53:15 PM ET by David Dansky
I guess I'll just have to disagree with you. I think it is the builders responsibility to educate consumers (his client) about seer ratrings, window technology, insulation, siding etc... Who else are they going to learn it from. Certainly not home depot. Given a bit of knowledge about such things they may actually want to upgrade them which would be beneficial to both parties. You seem to be of the opinion that if the idiot doesn't know any better, so be it. Pretty sad.
Educated consumers are your friend unless you are trying to rip them off.
Tom,
I think you haved missed Davids point. When a consumer shops for the lowest price the builder must shop for the cheapest materials and the cheapest labor he can find just to compete in the marketplace. The cheapest material and the cheapest labor don't make for the best product.
I have stopped trying to educate proposed clients. The idiots never learn and the smart ones already know that you get what you pay for. Even if it is a $500k home.
dl
where is grandpa piffin when you need him?Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
OK How many of us have installed a beam and nailed those joist into it, and keep on framing. Maybe for a week, two, or till the whole house was framed. Then when a good super, head carpenter, etc. is punching out the framing(straighting studs, fire blocks, fixing odds and ends) he installs the joist hangers. When customers(engineers exspecilly) start pointing to this and that, I politly but firmly remind them that we are BUILDING there house, and when we are finished(with each phase) we would be glad to walk thru and discuss any problems that they see. There isnt any house in america that is under construction that someone could walk thru and find a dozen "problems"
David
Tom, as a reputable builder it is things like you've outlined that make my blood boil. As a whole I am for less goverment and less govermental control, but it is way too easy in most states for anyone with a pickup and a hammer to call themselves a contractor and get a bond and get licensed. And in many states the bond is like 20k, now how far is that going to go when the foundation mr. slaphappy did fails and the 500k house is tumbling down?!?
You're also correct that it's hard to find out much about contractors in some states. Others are taking steps where you can at least check out history, bond and insurance info. online. And face it, most people educate themselves more prior to buying a car than buying a home. The HVAC systems you mentioned is a good case in point. That is precisely why I have a book of each home that photographically shows that very home being constructed, from site work to the last nail being driven. I include examples of OSB sheathing that has been exposed to excess moisture, and plwood that has also. Not pictures of those, actual samples in a small bag with three ring binder holes in it. I try to educate people somewhat about the differences in construction practices, and why I don't consider the minimums to be enough in some cases.
I'd like to have a buck for every home that I've seen that has drainage TOWARDS the home! That certainly doesn't meet standards, but it obviously passes all of the time. I don't think a lot of builders even take the time to set grade stakes any more, and figure where they want their finish elevation to be. Just dig a hole that looks right and slap a house up.
The way many Americans are the price doesn't matter. People seem to buy about the biggest home they can possibly afford. So whether it's a 100k house or a 900k house, to the buyer it is a huge purchase, and they deserve to get a product that represents a good value.
I'm not sure if grandkids of the future will be visiting the home that ol' grandad grew up in, they may not stand that long any more!
And what about the poor homeowner that get's liened because a sub wasn't paid? Sure, that contractor files banko and is set up under another corporate name in no time at all. Screwing subs seems to be a big sport with some of these guys. They do the work, pay for the materials, and then get squat?!? Sounds like time for the subs to get together and read up on vigilanitism and take appropriate action.
Here is one hint that I've found useful. Most builders will do business with at least one rental outfit. Some times the owners of such places, if they'll talk, can tell you a bit about the character and payment history of a contractor. I've asked about subs I'm considering using and found out information this way before.
I agree that there aren't enough safeguards to protect the consumer when it comes to housing. I don't blame people in the least for being mistrustfull of contractors, there are too many true horror stories out there. It makes it much easier for ethical, quality conscious builders to really stand out though.
Work with a seasoned Realtor that you feel you can trust, as for references from builders and actually talk to people. Find projects that they've done a few years ago and go talk to people. Pay someone that knows about building to visit one of their sites with you where you can view homes in various stages of completion. Look at the materials being used, especially anything that will be hidden by insulation and drywall. Look to see if there are 16d nails blasting out through the sides of plates and things like that. Little things that you can see can speak volumes about things that you might not see. I wish someone would start a national advocacy agency for home buyers. They could send knowledgeable people out with them to explore homes they're interested in.
Sorry to rant, you just hit on something that I have an opinion on.
Here are two stories that where in yesterdays Atlanta papers about this.
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0802/18lemoninspect.html
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0802/18lemonhomes.html
Thanks for the links Bill, I read both of them. There is no excuse for builders like those that are outlined, but the state of Georgia has some culpibility, in my opinion. The state is making it too easy for builders like this to continue doing business.
I think there is an opportunity in Georgia (and elsewhere) for someone to offer home purchasers the service of inspecting their home throughout the construction proccess. Of course there would have to be some type of agreement by the builder that they would fix anything found to not meet building code requirements. Overworked inspectors aren't going to catch every thing, and it doesn't sound like some of the builders care enough about their own products or the people that are buying them.
This is a personal prejudice, but I trust builders that have been around the trades for some time and actually worked on homes more than I do some fresh MBA with a business plan. A competent carpenter that has worked on homes has been around the other trades and knows if something looks "off" with the plumbing or electrical systems. Sure, a contractor can hire this expertise, but they don't really have any basis to know themselves if that person or person's is accurate. Sub's know the difference. When I show up on a job site the people there know I'm looking, and appreciate good quality, and will not tolerate any less, and I know what I'm looking at. If a engineered floor calls for a double I-joist under an interior wall I'm going to catch it if it's not done right. That's an example of something easy for an inspector to miss, and that somebody that hasn't been around might miss too.
If I were a home inspector in Georgia I would start offering construction inspections on new homes.
After reading those two articles it looks like the original poster may have a point doesn't it.
Tom the original poster never had a point.
He was just a trespasser puttin his nose where he had no business. He wasn't a buyer, a pro or anyone who would be taken seriously. He may have simply misunderstood what he thinks he saw.
Across North America, the industry is second to none when it comes to quality of workmanship and while there will always be some that take advantage of clients in our industry, the same can be said of every industry.
If the situation is so bad in one state, then it's up to the residents of that state to band together and get the quality found in the other states or provinces. No one has to put up with shoddy workmanship or fly by nite builders.
If you do then no one can help those who refuse to help themselves.
Gabe
Gabe, I can go to several subdivisions near me and find similiar problems all day long. The homes are open for anyone to look at. It is a common practice here. I often do that because I have many freinds looking for homes and or looking to upgrade from the starter homes they bought ten years ago. I don't report them to anyone but I sure as hell tell my freinds to stay away. I am by no means an activist and have no desire to be. I have built my home and shop and plan to stay here. That doesn't preclude me from going and looking at the quality of the homes being built near me and refer good builders to my friends who may be in the market.
Let's assume that the original poster knew that the problem was real. Should he report it to anyone or is it simply a matter of buyer beware even though the average buyer doesn't know (and shouldn't be expected to know) about structural matters.
Tom, there's a national shortage of activist and an over abundance of busy bodies. One should never assume what is inside someone elses' head. This one had no credentials other than being a frequent visitor to construction sites. Hardly the qualifications required to judge the structural elements or even to evaluate the assembly of what he thinks he saw.
There are many ways of cutting out sections of joists (including engineered ones) and there are many ways of ensuring that the integrity is maintained. Engineered joist manufacturers have warrantees that demand that the contractors follow their installation guides to the letter or the warranty is void. Contractors are normally liable for damages in the case of neglect.
I worked on a case where a contractor had installed weather beaten TJIs on a new house. The clients had moved in and the house was complete, including wood floors.
In the end, the contractor had to pay for the removal of several joists, which included the removal of the hardwood floor and replacement after the joist were replaced and inspected.
Yes of course, there's nothing wrong with sharing information with your friends regarding good and bad builders. But there's nothing good about sticking your nose into something that you don't understand and going around reporting on it.
Gabe
Gabes last post shows to me that there is a either a miscommunication or Gabe has a very strong bias and neither will change . I think that this thread should end. We have all said our piece and now lets move one.
How about those Cub's.
Nice try archyHalf of good living is staying out of bad situations.
And Tom and you have a very strong bias and refuse to change so maybe your idea of moving on is a good one. You guys REFUSE to see why this guy pissed us off. Makes me wonder what YOUR problem is....
Oh well. This will be my last response. Why does this guy piss you off? Do you try to hide construction defects? Is it a safety issue? Is it that you've been wronged in the past by incompetent people (this guy did not sound incompetent)? Did you have a sidewalk super ask questions when you were busy? Did a home owner question why you did something? Did someone question your ethics? I've worked with a lot of builders and your attitude and Gabe's attitude suck.
Have a nice day
How about those Brewers.
I had to try.
Did you have a bad day or something?
You must be a draftsman.
Gabe
Very last response. I thought I was done but Gabe brings the best out of me. Draftsman, no I've had my own firm for 20 yrs. Still have the my first 4 clients and keep doing work for them (I also have new ones). You must be a hack wood butcher who endangers the public by your lack of concern over inferior products.
Back to you.
I really will not respond to the next moronic response. I just had to respond to God Gabe since his attitude is the only thing keeping this thread alive.
Archy,
Do you beat your wife ?Quittin' Time
Gabe, How nice of you to assume that I don't understand things. You don't know me or any of my qualifications. You want an activist yet you call someone a busybody, many people see them as one and the same. I posed a simple question and you once again lecture me. I'll try one more time, maybe you're reading comprehension will improve or maybe the thread has run it's course. .
Assuming someone with full understanding of building practices and codes walks through a home, with the permission of the builders agent, that is for sale or under contract finds serious structural problems who should he she report it to. Should it remain a buyer beware situation?
Tom, where did you get this notion that I was refering to you being the unqualified busy body?
I think that I made it clear that I was specifically pointing to the original poster as the busy body and certainly not you.
Gabe
From your last reply to me which stated
"Yes of course, there's nothing wrong with sharing information with your friends regarding good and bad builders. But there's nothing good about sticking your nose into something that you don't understand and going around reporting on it. "
That was a direct reply to me saying that I may look at homes for friends. I don't think the original poster ever mentioned that scenario so I would guess you were talking to me. Apology accepted. You still haven't answered the question though. Nevermind.
Tom...... get a friggin life dude.....
Tom,,
Don't try to read between the lines. There was never an apology offered and none was needed. You were the one who misunderstood.
Gabe
Gabe, I didn't misunderstand anything. You wrote what you were trying to say and I took it as written.
Wet Head, you got a problem with me come out and say it. I see why the guy pissed you off but the question still remains. What to do if you know problems exist.
The constructions problems in this area are real and common. No one can seem to answer a simple question. Most on this thread have done nothing but imply that poor construction is no ones business if they are not directly involved in the transaction. If you see poor or dangerous construction should you report it to anyone or not. Most of you seem to be of the opinion of shut up and mind your own business. I hope you treat your clients better.
Okay Tom, so you think that you have a problem with contractors in your area.
So that we may all benefit from this, can you tell us how much construction is done on an annual basis in your area and what percentage of it is good and what percentage is bad?
Of course you should have backups to your numbers.
In this city we have had 1 billion dollars worth of building permits issued last year. In order for 10% of it to be listed as bad would require 100 million dollars in litigation or arbitration. For 1% of it to be listed as bad would require 10 million of it in litigation or arbitration.
Not even close.
So if better than 99% of all construction in this city rates from great to acceptable I would be safe to ASSUME that very few hacks are in our domain and the construction industry is second to none in quality of work and people.
Let's see your figures, Tom.
Gabe
The articles posted earlier are very typical and can be found often in local papers.I don't have exact figures but and have no intention of getting them. That doesn't even begin to touch the ones that aren't reported. I have no less than eight friends with recent or pending litigation regarding inferior or fraudulent building practices. Many just don't bother filing because it costs less to have the repairs made than to hire a lawyer. I don't know if the figures are even available. Many problems can't be seen until well after the builder is gone. Should painted trim last more than three years. Probably should but primer sure would help. There is no recourse if your paint fails after 2 years. If you had a warranty it has expired and most of them only cover structure anyway.
I wasn't trying to incite a riot here. I thought that someone might have an answer as to whether or not real structural defects should be reported if there are found by a casual observer or should be left alone in the hope that the prospective owner knows enough to find the on their own.
I know I'm stepping in late and probably not where I should be BUT.
I my real life trade that of an aircraft mechanic we rely on anybody walking by and telling us something is wrong. We accept and solicit opinions on our work. Before that aircraft gets anywhere near the door let alone in the sky it has been checked by at least two other people before it is signed off. Would YOU want it anyother way?
However, the only people in the hanger are employees of the company. That said, If you are on an aircraft and something is wrong with even the seat you are sitting in, it can be reported to the salad queens (flight attendents) and ask that they log it in the flight log. It must be answered at teh next station or that aircraft is grounded.
Now dissregard why and how he got onto the site, What does he do now? My bet is to contact the GC and ask that it be "logged". No opinion on how to fix or even if it's a violation in the first place. After that MYOB. The system should take care of itself.
Just my humble opinion.
Now back to our regularly schedualed program.
Weekend,
Well said.Quittin' Time
Tom,
I really have trouble believing things are that bad in your area. If this was the case then my advice would be for you all to move or get rid of the problem because you all can't seem to be able to agree on what is good or bad.
If all the people in your area are hell bent on accepting second rate workmanship then they're getting what they want. End of story.
On the original post. Even forgetting the part about his being a nosy trespasser, if there is as many deficiencies as claimed, it would be a waste of oxygen to report it to anyone. Obviously, this is what the clients want and are getting.
I wouldn't allow work or products onto the site that was inferior and none of my trades would either. So if you want quality you pay for and demand quality. If you want to buy second rate then.......don't whine about it later on.
I refuse to accept the claim that people have no choice in the housing market. If what you all say were true, good housing wouldn't be available anywhere on this earth and I can assure you it most certainly is.
Gabe
Gabe, people don't always know when they are getting inferior workmanship. Can you tell that the paint will fail in two three years because the trim was not primed. Can you tell that your foundation will crack and the house will settle unevenly because a trash pit is under your home. Can you see that the integrity of the framing is sound. The answer is no. You are relying on the builders integrity and the integrity of the code enforcement in the area, both of which have been shown to be lacking. Most of the homeowners do not know until it is far to late that their home was built poorly. Often times it is well beyond the scope any warranty or the cost to pursue it so great or the subject builder has filed bankruptcy and you have no recourse. The reasoning that if people are willing to accept poor quality then it is OK to build it just doesn't wash with me. At the prices the homes are selling for there is no reason they shouldn't be built well. The adage "there is a sucker born every minute" only applies if there is someone willing to take advantage of them.
Tom,
I never said it was okay to build anything inferior....what I said is that people will get what they want or are willing to accept.
No one should have to live with inferior housing but.....you can't help those that are not willing to help themselves or at least try.
Gabe
Pretty hard to read this any other way Tom....
So you are saying that people paying 500k for a home want the trim painted without being properly prepped. I'm sure that is the case. They accepted it without knowing. By the time they found out it was a problem it is too late. Of course none of this is the fault of the builder according to you. The people are buying so it must be acceptable.
The problem comes down to one of builder ethics. At what point is it OK to sacrifice quality to increase profit margins.
Are you reading a different post than this one?
Never said that and I don't know how you can screw up a discussion as much as you have.
In general terms.....(read general)......If your State has such poor construction....(read State).........then it's up to the people....(read people as in all the people of that State)....to stop whinning and do something about it.
Your State probably has poor automotive repair shops as well that rip off the people. This is not and I repeat for the hard of reading a case of only the builders in this State that are fly by nite but the entire State industry would have to be as well. Is this the case?
Gabe
"I wish someone would start a national advocacy agency for home buyers. They could send knowledgeable people out with them to explore homes they're interested in."
Well, they are called Home Inspectors, and unfortunately they charge a few hundred dollars to look over a house. But I agree with your desire for this type of group. Having gained some knowledge from my renovation work, I do look at houses my friends are interested in. I will point out Federal Pacific panels, I'll take my circuit checkers and test/count outlets in rooms, look at pipes, etc. If they are truly interested in the place, then I'll tell them to get a certified inspector. I do the same for cars, and if they are really interested I tell them to call the "E-lemon-ator", who I'd call too if necessary. As some have suggested, I understand my limits.
I never have work done by someone who I haven't found out about via a knowledgable referral. And I don't give out the names of good people to homeowners are flakes. It goes both ways. I may want those people to come back and do more work for me, so I try to be as good with them as I want them to be with my friends.
This has been a very interesting thread. I've found myself agreeing with both sides. I'm currently on the consumer end, but I also grew up in a heavy highway construction family, so I can appreciate the arguments from both sides. While some have been inflammatory, most have provided the rationale behind their practices and opinions, and that is how we all learn. I'm not the type to sue someone following my own stupidity, but I now see why it is bad to explore building sites without permission. Of course, as a child I was pretty much free to roam as long as I had my hardhat on and didn't get killed, so I never really gave it much thought until now.
You need to read some home inspection contracts. All that I've seen specifically say that they do not check for code violations, or wording to that effect. In addtion, though there are some fine ones', there are many inspectors that barely know what they're looking at when it comes to a completed structure, let alone looking at one in various stages of completion. And having someone that has a passing knowledge of construction might not always cuts it either.
Our houses are selling before we complete them laregly because we've set ourselves apart and offer a high quality product at a fair value.
Tom,
et al,
I never said this guy or anyone else would not be welcome on MY job. I live and work in a small community. I welcome folks wandering in as long as the access is safe and I am there. I use it as a marketing opp. If they don't have a job in mind, they know a naighbor or friend who does.
And I commonly hear comments about how clean my jobs are, or well constructed, or very organized, etc, compared to _______.
But this guy Kartman didn't come across that way, like a neighbor on a visit or a potential customer. He changed his story, casting doubt on all his other statements. He presented himself as a knowitall.
My personal experience with this sort is that they cause more accidents in construction work than they even dream of preventing. They are a distraction and a waste of time at the very least. They are more interested in atracting attention to themselves than to seeing that quality and safety concerns are attended to. They give out half-assed uninformed advice which then has to be corrected for customers, another waste of time.
I believe the comparison to loose lug nuts is not valid. That is a situation that places someone in imminent danger. We are compelled to act in defense of life in a situation like that. There is no such clear and present danger in the case of these trusses. The failure of wood members is slow and progressive, unlike steel or glass. There is time for consideration. If the situation is as Kartman describes, it is a financial and quality concern between the owner and his builder, under the authority of the inspector. It is none of his business. The only compulsion to act on his part comes from his own internal obsessive-compulsive behaviour.
I would like to nominate him to the Ralph Nader Panzer Division.
It is a shame that some states have such lax controls over such issues. It is an even worse shame that there are so many fools willing to part with good money but are not willing to investigate the quality of the product they are buying with it. Gabe's registration program is a greaat idea. It seems to work within the free market and is backed by insurance. Builders with track record of quality are approved. To stay approved and registered, they avoid errors like Kartman reports here as well as customer complaints. A standard is set and adhered to. Homeowners can presumably buy from a nonregistered builder but do so at their own risk, much like buying health care from an alternative medical practitioner is more risky than from most board certified physicians. The insurance program is incentive for the group to police itself, since rates would raise for all when too many claims are filed.Excellence is its own reward!
Again I disagree (the cranky part is because you state that your post was deleted by the "bland police"). I am an architect that does mainly commercial work but I have had my share of residential projects. I have found that many inspectors do not see or catch problems. In my work I have been involved in projects located in 18 different states and four different countries. The last house I worked on called for 4" steel columns with 1/2" base plates in the exterior wall to support a wide flange beam. The foundation wall was to have 2 -1/2" anchor bolts to secure the base plate. No anchor bolts in the foundation (inspected by the city). I told the site super and he said that they were going to use epoxy anchors so that the bolts were in the right place. Sounds good. I come back a week later and the walls are framed and the columns have 1/4" or less base plates that have been nailed to the wood sill. I told the super that this was not acceptable. He replied that he passed his framing inspection and there for it was OK. It wasn't. Made them rip it out and do it per the the drawings (needed the owners support (ie not paying) to get them to do the work). This is on a $700,000.00 house with a recommended contractor. In my own house I had an electrical inspector make me remove the BX that had been exposed when I removed the plaster on one face of the wall with EMT. The problem was that the BX went from a switch to a light fixture in a room that was not being remodeled (five locations). He told me to run EMT up to the ceiling and install a J-box to connect the existing BX to the EMT. I said that I did not want all of the exposed J-box cover plates in my hallway. He said to just cover them up with the new drywall since no one will need to get access to them. I taped recorded his final inspection where he approve the installation and then went back and repulled new BX from the light to the switch.
You just proved my point.
You didn't need a sidewalk superintendent to point out or get these items rectified.
Gabe
Thank you! I've been trying to compose an answer to all these defensive folks and you did it for me. I'm recently retired from 40 years in construction and I've always loved to walk job sites (still do) and I've never thought twice about people walking mine -- and sometimes they they find things that aren't right, or they think arn't right and thats ok.
"a problem properly handeled becomes an opportunity"
Just a little off topic, but I think the problem with the ductwork in the first place could have been avoided by proper supervision of subs by the GC. No way that type of damage to structural members is acceptable and should have been forseen and dealt with either when the floor was framed, or the ductwork should have been rerouted. Either way, it's the responsibility of the GC to make sure that stuff doesn't happen.
It doesn't matter who notices it and brings it to someone's attention. Don't shoot the messenger. Yes it's embarrassing. No one likes to have some stranger looking over their shoulder. Still, that sounds like shoddy work and I just shake my head when I see stuff like that.
I agree that some uninformed subs do some pretty confusing cutting, but the plumber doesn't have any choice where he puts the tub valve - you do have a choice to start your stud and joist layout 8" from the wall instead of 16, avoiding dead center on that tub. Quit hiballing and stop and think for a minute about what you can do to avoid some of these problems and you might be surprised how cooperative subs can be.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Gabe, I suppose I should chose my words more wisely the next time, huh? Ok then, the person I spoke to was not a realtor. He wore denim, work boots covered in clay, drove a pickup and kept chatting on the 2-way to someone about something 'being delayed'. He also told me the realtor was not there yet and I got 'lucky'. He gave me permission; of course I did not ask to see any written credentials or ask to see proof of him being able to give me permission.
All I know is that when I asked if he was the builder, he said no. The realtor? He said no, but would be my 'host'. With this said, that is how I treated him. This took place at about 10:30AM on a Sunday morning and it was 30 minutes before the realtor showed up.
Still, it makes absolutely no difference in the world if God came down and granted me permission as it does not change what I saw. Maybe if some of the builders out there having such a hard time with your sub's ability to do good work you would need to be blasting me for a) getting permission, and b) taking note of something that may be a dangerous problem to whomever buys the house.
I'm not trying to play inspector--try homebuyer!
"I'm not trying to play inspector--try homebuyer!"
Are you thinking of buying the home in question?
"I spend my money wisely, and like to kick the tires on the car I'm thinking of buying. To each his own, I guess."
Who's tires are you kicking? Walk up to a new car lot, find a salesman out with a prospect and pop the hood on the car that they're looking at. Then, tell them exactly what's wrong with the vehicle. I'm sure they will both be appreciative.
First you introduce yourself as an avid "looker". Now you are thinking of buying the house. If purchase is a consideration, I have an easy answer for you. Tell them to fix it or you won't buy. End of story. Now, if you're not considering buying then it just seems that you're sticking your nose in the wrong place.
Jon Blakemore
Jon, I have a habit of looking before I buy something or contract someone to build me something. I am not one to throw money at someone and hope for the best. There are too many poor builders in North Georgia (even most builders will admit that!), thus I think will continue to look before I buy/contract/seek-bid.
"I'm not trying to play inspector--try homebuyer"
You got permission to enter a site from an unknown worker. You already stated that you have not intentions of buying the house in question. So these are not your tires that you are kicking.
You state one thing and defend another.
Sorry, but you have no business on that builders site and you are a liability to him or her.
Gabe
If, by chance you are comparing home building to auto manufacturing, might I suggest buying one of those fine pre-made "fab" homes that walks of an assembly line...Rather than a home built in an environment subject to weather, and many other "uncontrollable variables.
Guess I'd have to say that a little "libel" damage lawsuit from a "curious ","potential" homeowner, who steps on a spike infested two-by....Would far outweigh the cost or eventual problem incurred by a an opening in a TGI web center....???
Drew, is your world really that paranoid? I may be naive, here, but aside from fixtures, trimwork, appliances, and carpeting and sodding, the home was finished. I walks from a paved road onto a concrete driveway and through the front door to a rather clean home. No boards were laying around (trim sub had not begun work), no rebar sticking out of concrete, no trash anywhere (this is part of what impressed me about this builder--he actually kept the place clean during the construction).
Also, I suppose I should be more descriptive as to what I considered to be '80% finished' as builder's may think of '80%' as being at a different stage of construction. I can say that do find "spike infested two-by" scarry, too, and would much rather avoid them by watching where I walked than simply running around like a person with mad cow disease.
So you don't understand what I'm talking about, eh?
You are a nosey noodled nit picker is what I am saying!
Now you suddenly say that the reason you were looking is because you are intrested in buying which infers that you have a right to be making inspections.
Nothing along those lines was presented in your first post.
Matter of fact, you clearly said that this house had a sold sign on it before you walked in. That made it clear that you were trespassing on somebody elses property. Nobody but the owner had any right to let you in and damn sure nobody assigned you the task of inspecting the framing. You stated quite clearly that since you were five years old, it has been your practice to visit, view, study and now inspect, houses under construction. You have appointed yourself big chief knowitall.
The way your story has changed through the course of this thread makes me doubt that you know what the truth is or whether you saw what you think you saw. You are making up reasons to be there in defense of your story. You already have a home (with a big F***ing TV) but claim you are looking at buying this one
"The house had a sold sign on it but I didn't really believe that it was sold but I was thinking of buying it just like all the other hundreds of houses I walk through looking for things to nitpick to death. And anybody like Gabe or Piffin who challenge my right to do so must be poor quality builders with something to hide because I obviously am right and know more than they do because I have seen it and have read the GP website and actually spoke with GP"
You said, "the HVAC sub did something that bothered me greatly."
My post directed you to several things in this world that have the potential to bother you greatly. You have gone on in such great detail in this thread that there is no doubt that you are anal about thiongs that are none of your business. You asked the Q "What would you do?" but do not accept statements answering that Q if you do not agree with them, you insult and argue with some of the best builders frequenting this site.
Your personality is clear. Are you a Harvard man?
.
You can always tell a man from Harvard.
But you can't tell him much!
Hey Piffin:
have learned a lot from your posts, so the "can't tell him much" musn't apply in at least my case. Your response was well deserved, the ditty is all so true, but only Yalies can reach his level of arrogance....
Color me crimson,
Rework
Well worded re-Worker!
It was actually a Harvey who told me that one but the reason it stuck in my mind is that the three I have come to know since then have underscored how true it can be! So it comes to mind when running into it again.
Sorry to redden your facial features.
Excellence is its own reward!
Ya having fun yet? Ha ha ha .
Maybe a re-state of the question will refocus everyone:
"If I have occasion to see a house under construction, and without intending to, happen to notice a situation that, if memory serves, is potentially dangerous--to whit, the inappropriate creation of holes in some I-joists, is the best course of action:
1. Say nothing to nobody?
2. Say something to somebody?"
Then, if there's continued interest, a corollary question is:
"Under what circumstances is it acceptable to visit a building under construction?"
And for bonus points, or if you're a glutton for punishment:
"If a person represents themselves as having the authority to allow someone (me) to tour a construction site, which forms of ID should I check to verify that in fact they have that authority?"
Good luck. Come out fighting and keep the punches above the belt. Timekeeper, ring the bell for the next round.
Drew,
How did you get from my reference to auto repair to pre-fab home manufacturing? I was describing a situation in which the wheels of a car might come off while driving. (This is not a hypothetical illustration. I have repaired the damage to cars that occurred when where the lug nuts were not tightened and the car was driven. I have seen cars in an auto repair shop parking lot with the wheels visibly cocked because the mechanic didn't tighten the lug nuts.)
If you apply the reasoning of some of the posters here, it would be an unethical, immoral, insulting, and possibly illegal act to ask the shop owner or a mechanic "Should the lug nuts on that car be loose?"
Perhaps my example would have been more appropriate if , instead of the parking , the car was in the shop, with the engine running, and the customer who owned it was paying the bill. Should you mind your own business? After all, it's not your car, you are (presumably) not a professional auto mechanic, and you don't have permission from the shop foreman to look around the shop...
Dave
You actually think that it is wrong for a potential buyer to have a look of a builder's work PRIOR to buying from them? With all do respect, I would easily place you in the 'not to trust as a builder' category. If you seem offended when someone you are trying to make money off of is having a look then you must have something to hide.
I got permission from the builder's rep and looked on a Sunday when not one sub was around. I do not see this as being anything wrong. Then again, I would not be the builder so inclined to hide, or continue to overlook, such a potential defect, danger, or jeopardized integrity of a product.
I spend my money wisely, and like to kick the tires on the car I'm thinking of buying. To each his own, I guess.
I hope you don't lose any sleep over people speeding on the turnpike, teenagers not using condoms, The half gallon of kerosene spilled in my yard, the pesticide my neighbor sprayed on his fruit trees, the way chickens are butchered, how many nails are driven on the shingles of the White House, the number and size of the fish that Gabe landed last weekend, the number of knots in the studs of this home, whether the builder used E-caotings on the windows, how many coats of paint are on the homes in your neighborhood, whether your friend's SUV is riding on Firestones, if your sister is getting enough MPG in her car, and last but not least, whether or not the EMT's from the power lines are affecting your brain yet.
If so, you'll never get any beauty rest.
Excellence is its own reward!
What exactly are you trying to say? :)
Lets just say for the sake of argument that Kartmano was in the house without permission and he saw this problem, regardless of the reasons that he should mind his own business what should he do about it?
Piffin, I think that you would say something about it, your standards are high enough that it would bother you. Tell me what would you do, don't get me wrong I've enjoyed your input on many a subject and I think that it would bother you to see shoddy workmanship. Would it be so wrong to contact the inspectors office and let him/her know about the problem, sometimes they don't do a complete job for what ever reason. Maybe it was overlooked.
Just wondering, it seems that things got off track here.
Doug
My standards are for my work. I share my expertise with anyone who wants to learn but not with fools. (Not you Doug) I answered Kartmans Q in my first reply.
There are certainly situations similar to this where I would say something to someone;
If the HVAC sub was a buddy, I would gently teach him what he needs to know.
If he were my sub, I would demand that he learn it quickly.
If I were a friend of the builder, I would mention to him that he needs to study the HVAC installation and the way it damaged his TJIs but only if he were a friend - as a competitor, any 'advice' I gave migtht be mis-interpreted.
If I were hired as a building inspector by the bank financing the sale, I would flag it and write a detailed report tactfully castigating the builder that let it slip through.
I really have enough concerns to worry over without going into somebody elses basement to find something to fret over. If he's in that mindset - he should start counting how many nails each shingle get when the roofing sub shows up at the next one and counting how many screws of what length the SR hanger uses on the ceiling.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Thanks, appreciate the honest answer, besides your right you do have more things to worry about, you have that big trip planned, dont envy you on the long drive nor the trip to Branson, but thats JMHO.
Doug
I second the motion. (or is it like 32nd the notion?)
Kind of looks like mr. kartman is just looking to get some people irked.
In the only two complete builds and my own remodel that I have experienced, the worst subs I have ever seen are HVACs. I prefer to call them butchers.
What is with these guys? Are they only trained to moved air? Is it their special mission to try and destroy the hard work of the engineers and framers?
There must be some good ones out there, they are just not keeping up with the spread of hacks.
As you can see by some of the brow beating responses some people get upset about "visitors" coming on the job site. It is with experience from people who are a real pain that you get these responses so don't fault anyone for being upset with you. People like yourself are for the most part harmless. You sometimes get peole that are retired They are for the most part bored and have nothing better to do. They want or need to feel useful so they will sometimes nose around a bit, and occasionally wonder where they are not supposed to go. Some of these people get extremely annoying. They will sometimes actually tell you that you are not doing something right when they have no idea what they are talking about. Sometimes "sidewalk superintendents" as they are referred to will actually yell at you, and can at times be a real nusiance. So understand why some people become upset about "visitors".
In this case I think you were OK, but it would have been better to ask the builder himself and not the agent. Someone knew you were there and said it was OK, and we commend you for that. However, it should not have been the builders agent but the builder himself that you asked for permission.
You are correct in wanting to check out the work of others before going with a certain builder. The quality of a person's work can tell you a lot about how serious they are about their trade. However, I would have been very upset with my agent if he were inviting people on the site while I was not present. I would have also shot off a nice nasty letter to the agency and demanded that they not do that again without my being present. It's not that I would be concerned about some deficiency being uncovered in the process it's the safety issues that always concern me. The difference in my situation is that I have typically worked commercial jobs and not residential.
Their is a huge difference in security issues between the two types of work, but the level of concern is no different in the minds of the guys on the job. They have tools and material that disappear on a regular basis even when reasonable security measures are taken. Any suitably equipped tradesman has several thousand dollars invested in tools and materials on any given job, so understand why they are sensitive about what they see as strangers snoopy around.
I'm a project manager and I have woke up in the middle of the night wondering, did the super lock all the gates? It's raining, did all the material get covered well enough, or will the wind blow it off? Is there anything left open or exposed that someone wondering the job site after hours may not see and hurt themselves? It can be very stressful, tedious, and nerve racking trying to keep a job safe. I also made a promise to myself years ago that I was never going to have to check the "death" box on an accident report so I go out of my way to make sure that everyone is working safe. Most builders are very good about keeping a job safe, and most sub contractors follow the rules and do their work with reasonable knowledge and skill in their trade.
Now I can put my soap box away and tell you what I really wanted to say. You should first tell the builder (not the inspector) that you noticed something that looked unusal, and that you are inquiring if it is a normal practice. If you don't hear the answer you think you should hear, then state your reason for questioning the work. Tell the builder that reasonable thinking from your point of view tells you that it somehow doesn't look complete (not unsafe, you be putting his integrity in question) and ask if there is some structural element that has not yet been installed. If you still don't hear the answer you think you should be getting then ask the builder to explain further why the joists can be cut in the way that they were. Tell him that your going to build a house and that you want to learn what to expect. If the builder really knows his materials and methods he will be able to give you a straight forward and reasonable answer to satisfy your curiousity. If after that conversation you still feel that the builder is trying to cover up unacceptable work then contact a local code enforcement official and take it from there.
I believe in this case the HVAC contractor either by stupidity or ignorance made these modifications to the joists without asking anyone simply because it was the quick and easy way to get the job done. Now keep in mind that ignorance is an honest mistake without knowledge of having made one and that stupidity is doing it anyway even though you know it's wrong. I think in this case you have an HVAC contractor that makes a person like you question all of the rest of us that really know what we are doing. It's an unpleasant truth of any business.
Remember that you get what you pay for. Use a reputable builder. It will be worth the extra $5K-$10K that you may save with someone not as reputable. Always get 3 or more bids for anything and rememeber that the lowest priced sub may not be giving you pricing for everything that you may want or expect so be sure to review the scope of work with sub contractors when you are dealing with them directly. Don't be afraid to ask questions, and steer clear of those who refuse to answer any reasonable question that you have. Good luck with your house.
SRDC, well put. It was never my intentions to say anything to anyone. I was simply looking for feedback on how to politely inform the builder. Others did suggest I inform an inspector, but that never really solve the 'real' potential problem, in this case the HVAC sub possibly.
I also see that most of the brow beaters seem to think that only the builder can give permission to be on a worksite when its not a workday and no subs are around. I have noticed rather quickly upon moving to Georgia some 7 years ago that in only one instance did the actual builder be found anywhere near the worksite in question. Often times one finds their host/super, the real estate (or realtor) person, or someone else.
Being that my interest was drawn to this particular floorplan, the builder, etc., my interests went from a looker (i.e. looking for a builder) to actually buying this builder's spec house.
Anyway, before saying anything to anyone I will have another look on the product manufacturer's website and give them a call in the morning. If what I remember from previous conversations with BC about their I-Joists then I will attempt to ask the builder or the gentlemen I spoke with on Sunday.
Kartman0 -- Try to keep your story straight... it improves your credibility.
In your original post, you wrote "I was thinking of letting the agent onsite know about this...", but now in note #22332.30 to SRDC you write "It was never my intentions to say anything to anyone. "
Which is it?
WOW! I thought we were talking about floor joists. A few years ago Fine Homebuilding did an article on I-joist manufacturers. There were, to be less than exact, a-lot of them. I worked for one for a few years and know that the size and loading are not the only determining factor for the size of hole in the web. What were the chords made from? Were they solid yellow pine, solid spurce-pine-fur, laminated veneer lumber (LVL), laminated strand lumber (LSL). Also, what was the depth and width of the chords. Those would come in to play. A floor system can be designed to fit large duct work such as you mentioned.
DON"T let your regular wood peddler sell you such a floor. The manufacturer needs to design it.
Did you really mean to say 'scary construction' in your post? I'm not hip to 'scarry constrution'. Wazthat mean?
Maybe check out MarthaStewart.com or something.
Id hate to be your builder.
You remind me of the kind of client that stands around looking over the shoulders of the workers with calculator, ruler, machinist's square and the code book. Hovering your prey ready to pounce at the slightest thought of a possible infraction.
If youre so leary of tract/developers homes, why were you there? My guess you went there looking for find something wrong. How long did it take you to find something wrong?
Hey kartmano.........Why dont you do us all a favor and go to the job site and tell the GC and subs to go to a computer read all the commments made here ? Since you have permission to walk on thier job I'll bet they would be more than happy to talk to you and shed some light from their perspective and maybe pass on to us some info.
"Why dont you do us all a favor and go to the job site and tell the GC and subs to go to a computer read all the commments made here..."
Better yet, take a bag of doughnuts and your laptop out to the site. "Hey fellas, come take a look at this. Your internationally famous!"
Brinkmann for president in '04
Just make sure you've gotten plenty of variety in the doughnuts and double up on the cream-filled. I think these guys need some themselves.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
I see you all have been having lots of fun while I was gone on vacation.
I really wanted to respond to Tom's rheotorical question as I read through here. It's kind of hard to separate the objective question he poses from the nosy and inflamatory position that Kartman put himself in.
I really liked Weekends suggestion from the airline industry. We can all recognize that some things can slip through the cracks, even with the best of building teams and those who are the best appreciate knowiung where they go wrong. Some of us make call backs within a year to be sure that customers are happy or even to inspect out own work.
So it might salve Kartmans feelings and help him sleep at night if he were to write a lettre stating the following,
"dear builder,
On (date) I happened to be at (adress) where you are apparently building a residential structure. While on the premises, I happened to note an item that appears to be a flaw in the building, one which would concern me if I were the potential purchaser or the building inspector so I thought that I might bring it to you attention (you are undoubtably too busy to have noticed) for correction so your unblemished reputation may continue.
This is the flaw that I observed________________
Sincerely.
Kartman
cc.builder,inspector"
Excellence is its own reward!