Is schedule 40 conduit allowed in commercial applications, or do you have to use rigid metal conduit only. This is for surface applications, not in-wall applications.
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Replies
Jimbo,
Are you in over your head? This is a really dumb question. Schedule 40 steel conduit is ridgid conduit. What does your electrician say? Oh, let me guess who your electrician is.
I don't think it's a dumb question. (Check the house rules about personal insults please).I'm not aware of a rule against it here, as long as the conditions that Greg mentioned are met.Scott.
Mcmark made a few assumptions but if this a commercial application there could be huge liabilities for screwing this up.
The assumption being the the OP is doing some electrical with blanket permit (put a blanket over the windows and start working).
If he knows what hes doing, do what you gotta do, but in a commercial application, alot of lives are placed on the line by virtue of typical commercial building usuage.
I dont think the remark was out of line at all. What goods being polite if you kill somebody?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I think we've got a bit off track ... maybe some perspective is needed.
Having been raised around pipe, when someone says "schedule 40," I think first of rigid conduit, which is similar to schedule 40 water pipe. Then I remember, we're talking 'electric,' not 'plumbing.'
At the parts house, if you say "schedule 40," thoughts run to PVC. Only PVC is available in two wall thicknesses; rigid is, well, rigid. (OK, there's also "intermediate," but that's never confused with 'schedule' anything).
Now, where do you use PVC conduit? Generally, only underground, tough you might see it in industrial areas where corrosion is an issue. I say 'might,' because in an industrial setting you're more likely to see a pvc-coated rigid used ("Ocal), rather than simple PVC.
Sure, the NEC (electric code) allows you to use PVC nearly everywhere, but that's mot the 'trade practice.' A lot of things that the code allows just are not done in the trade; whether this is good ia another discussion.
So, when someone speaks of using PVC anywhere but underground, the pros automatically think "untrained person." This assumption will then color the advice they give that person. In an industrial setting, since there is so much else that can be involved, the first thought is to say "get a pro."
Now, this may sound condescending, but it's usually because the pros have run across all manner of complications, maybe even made a few goofs in this area - and have certainly has seemingly simple questions prove to be misleading efforts by an overly clever / cheap customer.
>>>What goods being polite if you kill somebody?It's not. That's why we (you) have a justice system.On the other hand, someone ought to be able to ask a sensible question in a forum like this without being labeled as "dumb".Or perhaps I'm being a bit sensitive?If the OP is OK with "dumb" then I withdraw all commentary. I'm just trying to promote some civil, progressive conversation, as I've been accustomed to on this site since around 1991. And I'm getting tired of sounding like a Moderator for this thread.Scott.
"Are you in over your head? This is a really dumb question. Schedule 40 steel conduit is ridgid conduit. What does your electrician say? Oh, let me guess who your electrician is."Wow.I also don't think it was a dumb question. It is obvious he was talking about Schedule 40 PVC.Again.... wow...
It is obvious he was talking about Schedule 40 PVC.
How is that? He could also be confusing EMT to rigid conduit or IMC. The type of conduit allowed is also dependant on the fire rating of the building.
Jimbo should just have his licensed electrical contractor do the work
How do you know he isn't? Maybe he's checking something his licensed electrical contractor told him that doesn't jibe with the plans.
I have an incredible nose for DIY'ers, wether HO'ers or contractors hacking away at something they don't know how to do
Wow, you may have a future at the Psychic Hotline.
I have an incredible nose for...
And an incredible ego."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Maybe he snuck over from plumbingzone for a little payback
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=123883.1
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/oakum-quality-aint-what-used-4891/index3/
>>>I have an incredible nose for DIY'ersThen I suggest you take your arrogance elsewhere.This site has a historical and palpable mixture of Pros, DIYers, and talented writers working hard to produce an inspirational magazine. While I can't speak on behalf of the magazine, I believe it is in the hosts' best interest to encourage a diversity of opinions, backgrounds, and interests. If you and your nose are hung up on smoking out untouchable DIYers, I think you belong somewhere else.Scott.
"Then I suggest you take your arrogance elsewhere."
Oh really? Pot-Kettle-Black I think.
Why don't you quote his whole statement and then comment?
"I have an incredible nose for DIY'ers, wether HO'ers or contractors hacking away at something they don't know how to do."
This is a completely valid point. This is a very real problem on forums like this. Folks with no clue asking for all the details on how to do something they shouldn't be doing in the first place. Then comes the self appointed saviors who slam anyone who suggest the dreaded "Call a pro" advice, even when it is the best advice anyone could give.
>>>Why don't you quote his whole statement and then comment?What is that supposed to accomplish? I don't see anything worth quoting.And as I and others have implied, the OP does not appear to be "without a clue" as you state. He asked a sensible question, not the least bit deserving of the insulting tone from McMark, IMO.BTW, I see you've made two posts. Welcome to BT.Scott.
Edited 9/19/2009 1:11 pm by Scott
As a semi-pro, I don't mind if someone tackles something that they have no clue about. I get to charge twice as much to undo what they did, and fix it!
I'm with most everyone. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of Breaktime education and information? So now if I go to another thread and ask a Union framer about metal studs, are they going to jump to conclusions and insult my intelligence? I've been in the Electrical Trade for several years now, and trust me, I ask "dumb" questions everyday. In fact, the ones that aren't asking the questions, are the ones that you've got to watch more closely.
Edited 9/20/2009 9:05 am ET by excaliber32
I will assume you mean Sch 40 PVC. Yes it it OK for commercial if it is not exposed to physical damage beyond it's rating (the classic judgment call).
In some cases it might be preferable to metal (like around corrosives).
Typically they will still spec EMT or RMC, just out of tradition as much as anything.
I will assume you mean Sch 40 PVC. Yes it it OK for commercial if it is not exposed to physical damage beyond it's rating
Many places where I work, PVC is not allowed in commercial setting except to 6" above a slab, to allow for buried conduit to adapt to EMT or rigid. Furthermore, it is almost never allowed here in a suspended plenum ceiling, in walls, or in places of assembly. Shouldn't Jimbo own a code book?
Sounds like from the responses that pvc is not allowed, and to go with EMT.In regards to a code book, I contacted my local building department in order to obtain a commercial construction code manual, only to find out that they don't have one. I was told to obtain one at a bookstore.
Unlike residential construction, where the local building dept. sells a manual for $20, it sounds like you have to purchase the NEC, UBC, XYZ, WTF, and so on. I live in California, is there one easy to read manual that covers everything?
"I live in California, is there one easy to read manual that covers everything?"The short answer is no. Each AHJ/state will decide which model codes they adopt and one book usually will not do it all. In Florida we do have a state adopted building code that is based on the ICC codes but it is pretty expensive. Fortunately it is free online. http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/florida_codes/California may too but just plugging "california" into this URL didn't work.The Florida electrical code is basically the 2005 NEC, with a couple additions. 2008 is supposed to be adopted Oct 1, the last I heard.
That has slipped a couple times now. The real issue with PVC conduit is "physical damage" and each AHJ will make that determination. -Opinion bit ON-
Commercial electricians also tend to resist change. They like EMT and that has become the standard. It does tend to keep the weekend warriors off the job.
"I live in California, is there one easy to read manual that covers everything?"
Hardly....California's building code is officially known as the California Code of Regulations, Title 24, and unofficially as the California Building Standards Code. It's been conveniently divided into 12 parts so you won't get a hernia or throw your back out trying to carry it home.
For electrical you are looking for part 3. Here's a link to ICC's store....
http://www.iccsafe.org/dyn/prod/5530L07.html
Or a cheaper alternative
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3812571/Title-24-Part-3-Slice-1-2007-California-Electrical-Code
"It's been conveniently divided into 12 parts so you won't get a hernia or throw your back out trying to carry it home. "That is a good one. I am sure that each one of those 12 manuals is a page turner.
Maybe not a dumb question, but if you have to come to FineHOMEbuidling.com to ask this question then there is a very real chance you are in over your head.
This is a commercial job, IMO you should know what you are doing before you do it, ESPECIALLY if you are getting paid for it.
Greg's answer is completely correct. I'll also note that PVC is highly preferred underground in commercial jobs.
Not to hijack this thread but does it strike anyone else that this whole "code book thing" is kind of archaic in 2009.
I know the various code organizations want to sell their overpriced little books but it would be so much easier to just post it online.
That way everyone could easily use a current version of any code they needed.
but it would be so much easier to just post it online.
That's what we do in NJ, except for the NEC.
I always start a fight with my inspector brothers but I think the whole "code churn" thing is a scam. If people really understood the NEC code cycle they would storm the capitol to force the lawmakers to adopt every other cycle or every third cycle. It is ridiculous that the NEC changes every 3 years and it takes all 3 years to process proposals. The 2008 code has not been adopted by bout half the states, the 2011 is already closed and the next code you can write a proposal for is the 2014. One whole cycle is in the can before people really get to see it.
Bottom line, they should have at least a 6 year code cycle with proposals open for 3 years after most states have had a chance to adopt and use the code.
The book is about $100, the CD for the handbook is closer to $200. Add to that all the study guides, classes and other publications NFPA sells and you see this is a very lucrative business. The NEC is only one of about 100 standards NFPA writes and none of them are allowed to be copied into building codes like the ICC model codes.
You have to buy everyone you need
NEC is on line & downloadable here---->
http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/
Bill Hartman came up with this.
Joe H
Wow. That is a gold mine.Scot.
Yes Joe I have to second scot's motion, that is a goldmine. Thank you
I am totally in agreement with you. I know that on the residential side, where I live, they have compiled a generally simple, easy to read manual that is available in hard copy for $20, or on-line for free.
Yes, public documents produced with public money.
"Yes, public documents produced with public money."No Public money is used to produce them, except for the membership that some larger communities might have in the code organization and the copies of the code that they buy.What public money does pay for is the local ordinations which adopt the codes and in somecase adds amendments. Those are available for free or minimal copy cost and often on the internet.Now there are some state that apparently license the source code and then modify it and publish it as their own. And those are sometime available free on the internet.But when you are printing 500 - 1000 page book that has very limited distribution the cost are not cheap just for the printing cost and storage/distribution..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"But when you are printing 500 - 1000 page book that has very limited distribution the cost are not cheap just for the printing cost and storage/distribution."Then why does the CDRom that can be pressed for a quarter cost twice what the book costs? I still think we would be a lot better off if the book was good for 6 years. They should never mandate hardware in the code that does not even exist at the time the code is published and not before it gets a good field test. I only have to point to this AFCI fiasco. Nobody will tell us how many of the recalled SqD breakers actually got replaced and there are probably a million homeowners who were forced to buy devices that do not meet current code, at inflated prices because NFPA would not let this product mature before it was forced on us at the point of a government gun.
I completely agree with you about the code cycle and adopting things like the AFCI's.My comment on the cost had to do with community that write there own code.Now the my the code bodies charge what they do for CD relative to print copies you will have to ask them.My guess is that started out when people started asking about it on CD and everyone start wonder how they can do that. Remember that they have been printing books long before there where computers, etc. And when they first started using computer the where more dedicated systems just for publishing.And then they realized that there was value interms of being able to search it. Also that it could be copied. So they asked a preminum price and as long as they are getting it they will continue..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Selling them is the way that make the money to operate the organization that developes the codes..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I guess there's two sides to every issue. (On Breaktime there's usually three or four or forty) I know they have to cover their costs and probably a large part of that cost is, as you said, printing, storage and distribution, but those costs would be dramatically less or non- existent if the information was only available online.