Does anyone know if Schedule 40 ENT Gray conduit/pipe can be used in plumbing applications?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Performance improvements for the prized homes of an influential developer who wanted us all to be able to own one.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
I'm giving this a bump right away.
I am curious about this as well. Only my possible use is well casing.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Yep, I've often wondered myself. I have a problem with UV exposure on some well pipe and an above-ground irrigation system manifold.
Hope someone has the answer.
Greg
Paint your pipes if you have a UV exposure problem.
<!---->This is from Charlotte Pipe and foundry.<!---->
<!---->http://www.charlottepipe.com<!---->
<!---->UV Exposure <!----><!---->PVC pipe can suffer surface discoloration when<!----><!----> <!----><!---->exposed to ultraviolet (UV) radiation from<!----><!----> <!----><!---->sunlight. UV radiation affects PVC when energy<!----><!----> <!----><!---->from the sun causes excitation of the molecular<!----><!----> <!----><!---->bonds in the plastic. The resulting reaction occurs<!----><!----> <!----><!---->only on the exposed surface of the pipe and to the<!----><!----> <!----><!---->extremely shallow depths of .001 to .003 inches.<!----><!----> <!----><!---->The effect does not continue when exposure to<!----><!----> <!----><!---->sunlight is terminated.<!----><!----> <!----><!---->A two-year study was undertaken to quantify the<!----><!----> <!----><!---->effects of UV radiation on the properties of PVC<!----><!----> <!----><!---->pipe (See Uni-Bell's UNI-TR-5). The study found<!----><!----> <!----><!---->that exposure to UV radiation results in a change<!----><!----> <!----><!---->in the pipe's surface color and a reduction in<!----><!----> <!----><!---->impact strength. Other properties such as tensile<!----><!----> <!----><!---->strength (pressure rating) and modulus of<!----><!----> <!----><!---->elasticity (pipe stiffness) are not adversely<!----><!----> <!----><!---->affected.<!---->
<!---->The presence of an opaque shield between the sun <!----><!---->and the pipe prevents UV degradation. UV<!----><!----> <!----><!---->radiation will not penetrate thin shields such as<!----><!----> <!----><!---->paint coatings or wrappings. Burial of PVC pipe<!----><!----> <!----><!---->provides complete protection against UV attack.<!----><!----> <!----><!---->The most common method used to protect above<!----><!----> <!----><!---->ground PVC pipe from the sun is painting with a<!----><!----> <!----><!---->latex (water base) paint. Preparation of the<!----><!----> <!----><!---->surface to be painted is very important. The pipe<!----><!----> <!----><!---->should be cleaned to remove moisture, dirt, and<!----><!----> <!----><!---->oil and wiped with a clean, dry cloth. Petroleum-<!----><!----> <!----><!---->based paints should not be used, since the<!----><!----> <!----><!---->presence of petroleum will prevent proper bonding<!----><!----> <!----><!---->of paint to pipe.<!----><!----> <!----><!---->Reference Uni-Bell PVC Pipe Association 2001<!---->
if you mean electrical conduit....I would be concerned with using it for drinking water,.....even if the couplings makeup tight
Why ?
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I don't know if it is safe to use for potable water... as.the stuff is intended for wire. I thought the schedule rating on conduit was just for the wall thickness, & not a pressure rating ! I might also be FOS... One other thing, someone might look at Grey pipe and think....."conduit"
Luka,This is only a guess, but here goes: Gray PVC conduit has to contain additives to protect it from UV exposure, and it is not rated for potable water. Therefore, there is no requirement that the chemical additives resist leaching into drinking water. The makers of conduit are competing on price, so they will use the cheapest additive that meets spec. What are the chances that what they use just happens to be safe and does not leach out? Who wants to be the test case?It's sort of like eating off the floor. It might be clean enough, but that is not what floors are for, so it pays to be safe.Bill
Whatever additives there might be would be equally distributed throughout the plastic. So, if there were something really bad, it would be all over our garden by now, coming from the outside of the conduit.
Conduit doesn't have to hold pressure, so I'd not want to put any valves downstream of it. But for a drain line or a sprinkler system, my guess is it probably would serve OK. There are other materials designed for those applications, though, so why not just use them?
-- J.S.
OK, I spent a few hours poring over google searches.Never really felt any pressure to do so before. I was just curious. But if someone else wants to know as well....=0)I found several statements that the grey pipe is ok for drinking water. Scotland officially recognizes it as ok for potable/municipal/drinking water.The only statements I found against it are exactly the same as in this thread. It was all, " -I THINK-... it's not good for drinking water..."I think that until someone comes up with official statements that it is not to be used for drinking water, I am going to continue to plan on using it for well casing.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
A P.S. to that...I did see statements that black is not to be used for drinking water. I also saw statements that the grey is not to be used for compressed air systems.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Ok, one last. Just found it:
SAMPLE SPECIFICATION:
All CPVC Schedule 40 and schedule 80 pipe shall be manufactured from a Type IV, Grade I Chlorinated Polyvinyl Chloride (CPVC) compound with a minimum Cell Classification of 23447 per ASTM D1784. The pipe shall be manufactured in strict compliance to ASTM F441, consistently meeting the Quality Assurance test requirements of this standard with regard to material, workmanship, burst pressure, flattening, and extrusion quality. The pipe shall be produced in the USA using domestic materials, by an ISO 9001 certified manufacturer, and shall be stored indoors after production, at the manufacturing site, until shipped from factory. This pipe shall carry the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) seal of approval for potable water applications. The pipe shall have a Flame Spread rating <!----><!---->Emphasis blue added by me.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
The grey cement is also approved for potable water...
View Image
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Gray conduit isPVC not CPVC So the last statement does not apply
Good point.ALL the rest of the statements that I read before that, pertained to PVC, not CPVC. That just happened to be the last one, and the most clear.Don, do you know of any sort of official statement that electrical conduit should not be used for drinking water ?
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I would follow instructions/guidelines that made tthe most sense.......
in this case the statement regarding CPVC was "most clear " so I would opt for that stuff if I were choosing between the two......Even if the conduit is safe to use, I would still be concerned about the belled ends and leakage.just don't start eating off the floor
"Don, do you know of any sort of official statement that electrical conduit should not be used for drinking water ?"You just quoted it.Find some gray PVC pipe that has a NSF approval on it and use it.If it don't then don't.I am betting that you won't find any with the approval.
Perhaps the reason ENT doesn't have warnings about not being suitable for potable water is that it is conduit for wire and not pipe for water. I just bought a piece of dryer vent material, and eventhough I could get water to flow through it, it is not labeled 'not suitable for potable water'.
Just to add to the mix, when I order schedule 80 PVC from a plumbing supply it is a darker gray than conduit. My inspector recognized it as schedule 80 rather than 40 for the main water supply.
Hey Rickie,There is a point where the analogy makes sense, and a point where it stops making sense. It makes sense in the case of the grey pipe. It stops making sense in the case of your vent pipe. If we wanted to continue stretching the analogy into the realm of the ridiculous, we could even say that a balloon with the end cut off could substitute for a water pipe because we could obviously get water to flow through it.The grey pipe can easily and -inadvertantly- be made a part of a normal pressurized water system. Your dryer vent cannot. Your dryer vent is obviously not intended to be a part of any water system. That is not so obvious with the grey conduit.The conduit is so easily substituted, and in fact so easily mistaken by homeowner DIY's, etc... that it makes sense to put a warning on it not to use it as part of a water system... IF there was something wrong with doing so. Your dryer vent would be such an obvious kludge of something not intended for the job that it doesn't make sense to waste the money putting a warning on it.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Your electrical conduit is obviously not intended to be used as part of a potable water system either, mainly because it's electrical conduit. My analogy was intentionally ridiculous because I think it's ridiculous that you want someone to prove to you that ent is not suitable for use with a potable water system. It is obviously, very obviously, a product for the electrical industry. Just because it's not labeled 'not for potable water' doesn't mean that it is. My 5 year old could figure that out. If it is inadvertently used, in my world that would be called a mistake, not a substitution.
Edited 2/4/2006 2:14 pm ET by Rickie
Edited 2/4/2006 2:27 pm ET by Rickie
It says it's for electrical use. The other says it's for water use.Therefore, one should not be used for the other. The sky will fall if you do so !!!Ridiculous reasoning. If you follow that reasoning, then you never ever use anything else for anything that it was not "intended" for.You would probably quake in fear of being arrested if I came over to your place and tore the tags off of your mattress, too.Radar was never intended for microwave ovens. Xrays were never intended for hospital use. Internal combustion engines were not intended for automobiles. Plastic piping was not intended for household use. All of those things were discovered to do the latter job just fine. Just think if those who discovered the other uses had been sheep, afraid to use something for other than it's "intended" use...If you want to stick your fingers in your ears, and repeat watermelon watermelon watermelon, while blindly following all the sheep ahead of you, that is fine by me. But don't tell me that I am the one being ridiculous just because I want an explanation.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
And Maddog3,Good points, and good advice. If you are standing in a store, and choosing which pipe to get.My situation, however, is not one of going to the supplier, or big box, and choosing between one or the other on the shelf. (If that were the case, it would be an easier choice. The conduit is more expensive.)I cannot afford to go out and buy either one of the two. However, I have a lot of grey conduit already here. Enough to do the well casing. If there is some sort of industry statement specifically saying this stuff is not to be used for domestic water, and why, then I need to know that.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I doubt that there is anything "that harmfull" in the gray PVC. But there are more than enough stupid labels on stuff and you can't label everything that you should not do (for example the clothes iron that say not to use on body parts). There is also no label on PVC (either electrical or plumbing) that says not to use it for a pole vaulting pole. Which I am sure some kids have done. And some of them have learned that it breaks. Other have been small enough or used short enough piece that it did not.Nor have I seen a any labeled not to be used for colonic irrigation. Nor for it not to be used car exhaust pipes. Nor have I seen any labled for use in making furniture, although furniture is made with it and also some fittings are made just for that purpose.And lot of the cleaver tricks that are posted here and in FHB are based on using common materials for uncommon applications. 99% of the time they are great ideas. Every once in a while you will see someone find some hidden danger in that application.Hey, but what do I know. I am just Gunner's (13 YO schoolgirl that was suspened for making out in the janitors room) younger sister.
Bill, I know yer the plumber. I am not questioning your credentials. I am like the kid who you tell, the sky is blue. Well you've told him the obvious. But what he wants to know is WHY is the sky blue ???I want to know specifically what makes grey pipe bad for DW use. If there is nothing that makes it bad for the use, then why stick your head in the sand and repeat the mantra that it can't be used because it is not labeled for that use ??? Your examples are stretching the analogy just like Rickie was. Don't be ridiculous. For example: ANYONE -capable- of replacing a piece of thier exhaust pipe would KNOW that pvc should not be put in there. And they would know why. It would be an -obvious- kludge of something not intended for the purpose.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
You need to go back and read what I wrote.In my last post I NEVER SAID THAT IT CAN BE USED (for any reason).And I gave a number of examples of how you can't label everything for every thing that you can't use it for. Thus that is not proof of anything.And I mention how a lot of things are used sucessfully for purposes other than what they where orgininally intended for."ANYONE -capable- of replacing a piece of thier exhaust pipe would KNOW that pvc should not be put in there. And they would know why. It would be an -obvious- kludge of something not intended for the purpose."If you look at all of the "redneck" stores and pictures that have been posted from time to time you will see that is not true.
Bill, I think you are the one who needs to read again.And as for your examples... As I pointed out, your examples do not hold water in the current discussion. (No pun intended.)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
All the things you guys want to argue are superfluous. All I want to know is... aside from the chicken little worries about the label... WHY should grey pipe not be used for water ???
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Edit for typo.
Edited 2/4/2006 2:42 pm by Luka
Because it will make your hair fall out and shrink your nuts.
ROFLMFAO !!!Now show me the industry statement that says that, and explains why...=0)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I read it somewhere on a flier in an old hardware store that is now gone.
I'll try to explain a bit more, what I meant earlier. I don't like the way it turned into insults, and would rather try to explain my point a bit better if that will help...Why the other analogies do not work...If we were talking about bolts, then we would be talking about the difference between stainless and grade 8 or something of that sort.Each has it's specific purpose. Each was manufactured or intended for that purpose. But they can easily be interchanged. Both are bolts. And they are easily mistakenly used in the wrong situation, by anyone not familiar with the differences.While it is true that any yahoo can put in the wrong bolt for the purpose, your other analogies are more like someone using a toothpick or a nylon wire tie, or a candle to replace a bolt. The only analogy that actually works in this comparison is replacing a bolt with another bolt....There are some cases where you can interchange the bolts with no bad consequences. Who cares which one you use on your wheelbarrow ?But there are also cases where the last thing you want is the one not intended for that purpose. You do not want a stainless bolt in a stress/strength critical situation, and you do not want to use a grade 8 standard in a situation where corrosion is a factor, but stress/strength is not....White pipe was intended for water. Grey pipe was intended for electrical. But they can easily be interchanged. When it comes to electrical use, there is an explanation of why you should not use the white for electrical. The one reason I can think of at this moment is because it is supposedly a fire hazard. But no one has yet given an explanation of why the grey stuff should not be used for water. Other than that the label does not say it is for water. That may be a good enough excuse for a 4 year old, but I want to know WHY.The only things said is that it -might- have chemicals in it that the white stuff doesn't. That is not an explanation. That is a postulation. I would like to see specific, industry reasons why it should not be used.ARE there chemicals in it that are not in the white stuff, and which will leach into the water and have some affect on your health ? Maybe... is not good enough. I want to know the chemicals and the affects. Will it not hold up to the pressure ? The temps ? What -is- the reason ???
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
All PVC Schedule 40 and schedule 80 pipe shall be manufactured from a Type IV, Grade I Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) compound with a minimum Cell Classification of 23447 per ASTM D1784. The pipe shall be manufactured in strict compliance to ASTM F441, consistently meeting the Quality Assurance test requirements of this standard with regard to material, workmanship, burst pressure, flattening, and extrusion quality. The pipe shall be produced in the USA using domestic materials, by an ISO 9001 certified manufacturer, and shall be stored indoors after production, at the manufacturing site, until shipped from factory. Because this pipe does not carry the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) seal of approval, use of this pipe for potable water applications will cause follicular degradation resulting in moderate to severe hair loss, and extreme testicular shrinkage (it will make your hair fall out and shrink your nuts).
Emphasis added....
=====Zippy=====
ROFLMFAO !!!Oh man, you just gave my cat a heart attack !! You'll be hearing from her vet, and my lawyers !=0)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Here is a link...
Harvel
This is a pipe manufacturers site. I have read several pages. This seems to be a page explaining the specifications that they have to manufacture their pipe to.
Here is a quote from this page...
PVC MATERIALS:
The material used in the manufacture of the pipe shall be domestically produced rigid polyvinyl chloride (PVC) compound, Type I Grade I, with a Cell Classification of 12454 as defined in ASTM D1784, trade name designation H707 PVC. This compound shall be white or gray in color as specified, and shall be approved by NSF International for use with potable water (NSF Std 61).
Further down, it says that bell ended pipe has to meet the same qualifications as non-bell ended pipe.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Edit for html typo
Edited 2/4/2006 4:24 pm by Luka
Luka -
If you want a definitive answer about why ENT shouldn't be used in a potable water application (or why it wouldn't matter) you'll need to ask a manufacturer or the health department.
I doubt if you'll find an "industry statement" forbidding ENT - or any other material. In fact, you may find out that no one has ever tested it (and proven it safe) for potable water.
Thank you Dave.I'm going to take this advice and start emailing the manufacturers. I'll look for comparisons on chemical makeup. The MSDS sheets may not provide a lot of info, but I'll look there as well. The health department is a good resource as well. I wonder how well they'll take to my asking "but WHY ???";o)Brian made a good point earlier when he pointed out that the manufacturer probably just hasn't even bothered to do the testing because the pipe costs so much more, that it would be wasting money. People will only buy the cheaper stuff anyway.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
The health dept. will not have a clue . Just another not my job . It isn't listed here ,sorry no you can't use it.
I wonder how well they'll take to my asking "but WHY ???"
You may not get a definitive answer, but they may know some reasons why.
If you think about it, no manufacturer could possibly approve or disapprove of every potential use of their product. Nothing would ever get out of the test phase and if it did, the do's and don'ts lists would fill a small library. They invent something for an intended use and (hopefully) run tests to prove that it's safe if used as intended - and maybe a little beyond.
Code enforcement people would take the position that any use outside of the tested conditions is unapproved. Not because there are known reasons, but just because the ramifications aren't known. Better safe than sorry, right? - lol
Luka , do the makers of PVC conduit state implicitly that their conduit IS safe for drinking water ?I found out some time ago that, when heated above 500F .Teflon¯ fumes are toxic to birds ..who bakes at that temp with a parakeet nearby? nobody I know, but Dupont doesn't publish that fact do they ?So why would Carlon have to warn against using conduit for plumbing, or even think of mentioning it at their sites FAQs?if anything they would probably tell you NOT to use it....to keep their butts out of the breeze
True.But from what I read above, it looks to me like the pipe has to be manufactured of the same stuff, and to the same standards...
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
>>>>it looks to me like the pipe has to be manufactured of the same stuff, and to the same standards...Which of course, led me to the question why one was considered a fire hazard and one was not.I don't know if there is anything in the reg about the chemicals and fire hazard... But one thing did occur to me. The fittings and such for regular PVC make for fire hazard in that they can strip the insulation from wires when the wires are pulled. And/or they can cause abrasive damage to the wire insulation after intallation....Everything official that I have been able to find on my own, points to the fact that the grey stuff is superior for either application. With the white stuff being specifically warned against not using for electrical. And no warning not to use the grey stuff for water.Again, I want to make the point, if I were in the store, and choosing, I would use the white for water, and the grey for electrical. I just can't see anything anywhere that convinces me that if I am plumbing my house, and I need a sweep elbow like the grey stuff has... Or I am almost finished putting everything together, the stores are closed, and all I have left that will finish the job is a piece of the grey stuff... That I should not just go ahead and use the grey stuff.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Dude..... seriously..... what did you expect?
You're asking a bunch of tradesmen to co-sign your BS. Put the damm pipe in the ground and drink away..... you be the guinea pig. You're 100% correct..... nobody can find it written anywhere that it'll kill you if you use it for your well. But everyone else is also 100% correct in saying that it's a bad idea. It's just not what it was intended to do and hasn't been approved for use with potable water. Why? Because a bunch of other products already have. Now you're asking everyone here to approve it for you.
Luka... you're much smarter than this. You're playing the homeowner guy who is trying to tell me why I should be framing houses with screws.View Image
Brian, thank you.You do at least give me some clue as to why this is being argued the way it is.I am NOT asking anyone to sign off on any BS.That is your own assumption, and/or interpretation of what I am saying.I am not asking anything at all except one question...WHY is it a bad thing to use the grey stuff for water ?All else is moot. I am not asking anyone to agree with me. I am not asking anyone to sign off on anything. I am not asking for a concensus of opinion. I am only asking WHY is it bad to use the grey stuff ?Do you know the answer, or do you too, just want to argue some other point that I am not even arguing ?
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I am not asking anything at all except one question...
WHY is it a bad thing to use the grey stuff for water ?
Because it hasn't been approved for that use. Why is that so incomprehensible? Why hasn't it been approved? I don't know, but my guess is because there's already a comparable product available that is widely accepted, and..... drum roll please...... APPROVED. What would the benefit be to the manufacturer to have it approved for your intended use? They'd have to pay a ton of money to have a zillion tests run.... and then they'd still have a product that was more expensive than it's direct competition.
Do you know the answer, or do you too, just want to argue some other point that I am not even arguing ?
Yeah Luka.... that's it. Never mind..... keep beating your head against the wall. Why should I try to stop you? I already said you're 100% correct in saying that no one can tell you why it's a bad idea. What the he11 more do you want? I didn't realize that telling you that you are 100% correct is an "argumentative" thing to say. My bad.View Image
Sooo uhhh..how about a nice bagel? LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Save a few posts, fill in your Profile, we can help!
I never knew what the bagel thing is all about dude. Missed that one. Wanna let me into the loop?View Image
I stole it from Rez..he usually interjects a diversionary bagel when things need a diversion..never mind. I'll go back to my reading.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Save a few posts, fill in your Profile, we can help!
I think I get it. Thanks for the bagel. Now what were we talking about? View Image
Brian, We are having bad storms here. The power just went out, and came back on, and I lost a longer response to you.I'll try to remember.You still want to argue that because the label does not say it can be used for water, then don't use it.That is good enough for you and Rickie's 4 year old, and apparently most everyone else.In fact... In the end... It is good enough for me.I am not making the argument that people -should- use it. And I am not trying to convince anyone to use it, or to sign off on it's use.I am simply asking what specifically is the reason why it should not be used ? "Because the label doesn't say it can be used that way", does not answer my question.The label on a srewdriver does not say it can be used for a crude chisel in an emergency, but I'd be willing to bet that you do not heistate to use it thusly if you need to. Your screwdriver was not "approved" to be a chisel. But there is nothing wrong with using it that way. The grey pipe was not approved for water. But so far no one has given a good reason why there is anything wrong with using it that way.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I'm not arguing about anything Luka. How do you keep missing the part where I'm agreeing with you?
It hasn't been approved for your use. That's it, plain and simple. You can't just create a product and declare it to be suitable for something as sensitive as potable water. It must be tested, approved, and accepted. Apparently it hasn't been. Therefore the potential for toxins or other problems is still present. That's why it's probably a bad idea.
In order for someone to give you definitive answer.... a definate "WHY"..... they'd have to test it and see if any of these problems exist. Apparently these tests either haven't been done, or have been done and the product failed. My best guess is the former and not the latter. I already stated my suspicions as to why these tests may have not been done in my previous post.
So until it's been declared suitable for potable water............ it isn't suitable for potable water. It's the potential for problems and not actual problems that make it unsuitable. Guilty until proven innocent, if that makes it any easier to understand.
It's not a complicated theory dude and I'm not trying to argue with you but you're splitting the split hairs here.View Image
Ah. Ok, I understand what you meant.=0)Nonetheless, as long as it is true that the two pipes are made to the same standards, and from the same materials, I am going to go on wondering... and splitting that hair.=0)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
as long as it is true that the two pipes are made to the same standards, and from the same materials, I am going to go on wondering...
But do you know that to be fact? If you do, then I certainly see your point. But I think the point is..... we don't know that to be true, do we?View Image
I made reference earlier here to a manufacturer's page where they are stating the same standards and materials.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Missed it. I believe we've come full circle at this point, no? I guess I don't know what the answer is, and I'm starting to not even be able to recall what the original question was/is. I think that's my cue to bow out of a discussion.
Oh yeah.... and I never use a screwdriver as a chisel. Now a chisel for a screwdriver? That's a whole 'nother story. ;)
View Image
Using a chisel for a screwdriver would get you a slap upside the haid around my place.=0)Screwdriver for a chisel is not so bad, but the other way around just really grinds my grits. LOLPower went out here yesterday at 3 pm. Didn't come back on until 3 am this morning. Otherwise I would have responded sooner.I think I'm going to take my search to the manufacturers and other places. It was never my intention here to cause arguments.My apologies for having done so.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Now that you stirred up the pot, post a report of your official findings. I stayed up all night wondering about using conduit for water.
No apologies necessary for anything dude. That's what the forum's for...... hash something, look at it from a bunch different angles and viewpoints, and still not form a conclusion. LOL. It's all good brother.View Image
Luka,I appreciate your desire to know the why of things. Given the failure of the BT brain trust to give you the definitive answer you seek, it appears likely that you may need to do direct experiments of your own. You may be the only entity with enough motivation to find out the real answer. If any of us knew the answer you are seeking, then we would have told you, but we also do not know that answer. Unlike you, I do not have the motivation to ferret out the hidden truth about this issue.Now, if I inherited a billion feet of gray conduit and needed that much water line, I might have the motivation. My point is, your situation is a rare one, and it is that situation (plenty 'o' conduit, not a lotta dough, and the need for well casing) that is propelling this quest with such urgency. Good luck, I hope you receive a satisfactory answer. When you do, let us know, ok? More ammunition for the Breaktime construction trivia contest.Bill
Thank you Bill.I'll try to remember to come back here and report if I ever find anything definitive.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I don't know of any reason not to use or use it for DW except that Vinyl is a carsonagen and plasticizers are not good for a body and they leach out of plastics . I use PVC for DWV ,copper for potable .
Could you trade for regular well casing? If you are going to use the well for other than drinking why worry just use it.
That may be the end result here, Don.Depends on whether or not I ever find anything really definitive.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Did my own search a few years ago when drilling the well and was going to use 5" grey pvc for the well casing. Went with combo of steel and white NSF instead, used the pvc for drainage.
Found that in the 1970s Kansas city had some problems forced them to dig up some early PVC mains, before the fact was known that
"there can also be residual unpolymerized monomer present in low concentrations. This factor is especially important in PVC pipe, since vinyl chloride monomer is carcinogenic." (from Drinking Water and Health, Volume 4 http://books.nap.edu/catalog/325.html). The conduit does not have the same controls in mfg (at least not a few years ago) as
If buying pipe or conduit, request the MSDS sheet from Lowes or HD (they have the msds for everything by law on their computer , that will say what stds. the particular pipe was mfg to and possible free radicals.
Basically, If it is pipe you already have, it is 99.99% OK for you or me to drink out of but would not use it for something that kids would be exposed to.
Edited 2/4/2006 4:52 pm ET by junkhound
Thank you Art.The voice of reason.I'll say first that I come to the same conclusion as you do. I would never even consider this for someone else to drink out of. Just because I simply do not know...(Plus add to the fact that I never ever intended to use that well for anything but cleaning... Also the fact that all this may become moot for me, because I am collecting rainwater instead. LOL I just have become stubborn in wanting to know specifically WHY the grey stuff is a bad idea.)I do have to say though that the argument that PVC is bad for water plumbing, is a double edged sword. According to what you have just said here, the white stuff is as dangerous for people to use for plumbing as the grey stuff is. With the one caveat... That before a certain time, the grey stuff may not have been held to the same manufacturing standards.But apparently now... it is. So if it is made of the same stuff and to the same standard, then why is the grey dangerous, and the white, not ?The MSDS sheet is an excellent idea. And that along with the fact that the pipe used to not be held to the same standards... Leads me as well, to the fact that I should get as much information on the specific scrap pipe I do have, as possible.My intention for that pipe has all along been just to use for drains. It's too large for anything else around here. The idea to use it for a well casing did not come along until recently.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
There may have been another issue, but I dont' remember any problem in Kansas City that along ago.However, in the early, mid 90's there was a problem that showed up in rural water districts in KS.It only showed up in lines that had very low usage and the water sat in the a long time. And IIRC it was limited to a brand and/or lot.But the potential is there.And I am not sure that the MSDS will be very helpfull although it might give a clue. But it is mostly directed to hazards in normal application and process. So it will cover the hazards of skin contact and dust from cutting and smoke from burning. But the electrical.
It's sort of like eating off the floor. It might be clean enough, but that is not what floors are for, so it pays to be safe.
LOL... that's a classic. Now there's some advice that I can make sense out of.View Image
ENT is definately not intended to be used for potable water applications.
JUST my WAG but if it was dangerous to be used for drinking water they would have warnings all over it for legal reasons... if your wheelbarrow has "not for highway use" and your fishhooks say "not for humans" I think they think their is no danger because they know full well if you need 5ft more pipe that will be buried to finish a job 200miles from nowhere and all you have is grey... grey is what will get installed...
besides i kinda like have'n 3 arms and my center eye serves me well, grandmaw said the turnips planted next to that waste pond grew a foot overnite...must be the water
p
The reason I was looking into the ENT was for sump discharge piping. The 90 degree sweep pipe fitting ( 1" ) looks ideal for a smooth direction change. Then I started wondering............
for discharge , it be fine.. 2+3=7
Yes, NSF rating would not apply here.Frank DuValYou can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
All the talk of labels, speaks to only one thing... That one pipe is manufactured for one thing, and the other pipe is manufactured for the other thing.(The NSF "label", I believe, id "DW".)But the question is not what was made/intended for what. The question is, CAN one be used for the other without health consequences ?I need that question answered definitively. Is there an industry statement somewhere that says that the grey pipe is not to be used for DW... and which explains why. Just saying not to use it for water will not suffice. Because that is simply stating the obvious... Because it was not made for water. I want to know -why- it shouldn't be used. And if the only reason is because it was not made for water, that is a ridiculous reason not to use it, since it is so well suited to the purpose. It works just as well as the white stuff. And in fact will stand up better to UV in any area where the plumbing might be exposed. Which makes it even more desireable...
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Gotta through this in the mix. I use quite a bit of sched. 80 water line and all of I've gotten has been gray. Go figger, Jim
Thought all sched.80 water line was gray? All of i've used over the was gray. it is a slightly darker gray than ent. Jim
BTW, ENT is Electric Non-metallic Tubing. It is the blue corregated plastic commonly known as "Smurf Tube" in the industry. Its fitting are most definately not watertight. It is indoor use only. It is the plastic equivalent of EMT, Electric Metallic Tubing.
The gray conduit is conduit, not tubing, and is watertight when installed properly. Without an NSF lable, you are on your own. Just like white schedule 40 PVC will not pass an electrical inspection but could be substituted in certain instances without a problem, just not legally, so I would never recomend it.
Frank DuVal
I feel sorry for edward3, whose original post has been essentially hijacked. Edward, I have confidence that you would never be so stupid to use electrical conduit for water delivery. For drainage, of course, would be no issue (unless it's a grey water system into your vegatable garden).
The thread has not been hijacked.If you feel sorry for him, you are crying crocodile tears. There is nothing to be sorry about. If you want to talk hijacking, then we might consider your attempt/s to bring this to an emotional argument to be a hijack.He asked if the grey stuff can be used for plumbing, and that is the only thing that has been argued here. "Can the grey stuff be used for plumbing ?"Well, can it ? You haven't provided anything truly definitive either way, except for the perspective of what would be easily accepted by your 4 year old.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I wouldn't use it. Ya know why?
It might have wire pulling spooge in it, and that stuff is gross.<G>
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Save a few posts, fill in your Profile, we can help!
I appreciate the "responses". I have since installed the SCH 40 ENT for a discharge pipe, and all is solid. However, I thought the "Gray" tint was part of the UV protection of the pipe, yet I just saw a Gunite pool installed, and all exposed pipework is "white" SCH 40. Won't the PVC break down through exposure?.
Yes. It will dry up, crack and fail. Of course anything that is outside in Texas will do the same. That is why I move into management.
Holy crap 68 post.
I'm not reading through them all.
So here's the skinny------ you can't go by color---- sch 80 pvc for water is gray too.
604 of the UPC ( uniform plumbing code) materials for potable water.
604.1 inside the building -brass, copper, cast iron, CPVC, galvanized iron, PEX,
604.14 - outside of the building - asbestos cement, PE, PVC, PEX-AL-PEX, PE-AL-PE
So by the code you can use it outside of the building.
IRC is much more specific. They define the specific materials allows.For PVC there are two. For Sch 40, 80, and 120 it is ASTM D 1785.
For PVC pressure rated pipe (SDR) is is ASTM D 2241.
PVC has a pressure rating printed on it near the Schedule number but I've never seen pressure ratings on plastic conduit. Personally, I wouldn't use it for plumbing.
On the top of my head I would say no to the use of grey PVC on a plumbing system, the real answer will come from your local code. Luck.