My g/fs son is home from school for a week because of an operation.Mon she goes to the school to pick up his work for the week.He just came in here and asked to use the calculator,asked him for what,he says he has to do his math homework.i said get a paper and pencil and do it he says he cant its wages lol eg 15hrs at 15 $ = ?
i told him again to get the paper and pencil.he says they never taught times tables(6th grade) they all use the calculaters I didnt belive him so called the school,yes thats right sir we feel with the technology availible now they are better off learning how to use it than trying to understand basic math.what kinda sh!t is this?anyone ever heard something like this?just mad i’ll get over it lol
the funny part(not really) is that was why i was home figuring payroll for tommorow,tried to have him sit and explain it to him.it was talking to a rock.Got the mail while i was home taxes are due again (city).wonder how much the school does or doesnt get of them.If there was a way i could afford home school you can bet he would know geometry trig and all the stuff i use every day and dont really think about.maybe even spellin lol
Edited 8/21/2003 1:01:38 PM ET by bud
Replies
As a point of comparison, I have a 10 year-old who's just completed grade 4. He's been vigorously taught the "times" tables since JK. While they are occassionally permitted to use calculators for certain homework exercises, they are not permitted in the classroom during math classes. We're told that in the higher grades there will be increasing use of calculators when solving logic problems as a matter of speed and accuracy.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
That school is totally failing the students.
I can think of nothing dumber then not teaching children how to do basic math on paper. There are many many instances when I don't have a calculator with me that it makes sense to add up prices, or times things to see how many of whatever I can buy with the money in my pocket.
>>yes thats right sir we feel with the technology availible now they are better off learning how to use it than trying to understand basic math.
How freaking lazy and incompetent can you get? It takes what 2 seconds to teach a kid how to multiply on a calculator. I guess it's much easier for the teacher, but they haven't really accomplished anything when the student knows to push (15 x 15 =). When they know how to do that, they still don't know math. You have to understand what the calculator is doing if you're gonna advance into higher level math. Of course, today you can type (2X+3Y=5Y) and have the calculator solve for X or Y. So, it is possible to do even higher level math without any knowledge of what you are doing. But, I'm not sure what good it actually does you.
Sounds like that school is an abject failure, and are patting themselves on the back for being a failure. Pathetic.
What the heck - just figure your 15% tip on your PDA while trying to look like you are reviewing an important message.
They are at least teaching them how to read a PDA manual aren't they? Oh, never mind. Just have them download the audio version...
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
while I agree that multiplication/division tables should have been memorized, starting in 1st grade, how can it be that the student gets to 6th grade before anyone notices he has not?
ive seen his report cards as and bs mostly so.The school doesnt send homework home and the students are not allowed to bring their books home from school
very sad - I was going to edit to say that 1st grade might be a little young for multiplication - probably second, if I recall - of course we were working with roman numerals back then - -
What? No Abicus?
tell him to learn it now, cause when speaking from recent experience some college professors don't see it the same way.
At least I wasn't allowed to use calculators in a few college math courses
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
As CAG said, some college profs are not going to let you use the calc, and those that will will ask for the exact answer, try pluging Pi into your calc and getting the exact answer, better know how to do it without the calc.
Doug
Interesting thread.
The smarta$$ in me that attended a "better than I deserved" jesuit prep school immediately wanted to reply, "Maybe the kid doesn't know numbers, but the poster could use some help with grammar and punctuation."
However, clearer heads prevailed and I will refrain;-).
In principle, I totally agree with you. Calculators in lower grades are a bad, bad idea. I also agree with the statement about Avogadro and Plank. How they did it makes it even more amazing. I guess anything is possible when there is no TV to watch or Message Boards to read. My favorite "slide rule" comment comes to mind whenever I see the SR-71 "Blackbird": "Hard to believe that paper, pencils, and slide rules put that thing in the air. . ."
Steelkilt Lives!
edit (misspelled grammar -doh!)
Edited 8/22/2003 6:45:46 AM ET by Jim
Edited 8/22/2003 7:42:02 AM ET by Jim
It's August. What's the kid doing in school this time of year anyway?
_______________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
been there since about the 6th or 7th.I really dont know why i posted that was just pissed i guess and was looking at bt while figuring time sheets.dont know where your from but some schools goyear round here.Lived in north carolina for a long time same thing there at least in the area i lived in.every year the restaraunt owners etc would try to get school opened after labor day because they didnt want to lose thier cheap help before the tourist season was over.if yall wanna just ignore this thread that would be fine by me like i said was pissed and happened to be here
i think that schools are for socialization, and a parent needs to educate, or at least supervise someone else educate ones children. i can't teach what i don't know, but i can find someone who does know. frequently a good teacher is someone who has just learned, and is relaying the information and how they came to grasp it.
make a game out of it, did you ever hear of dominoes? i played dominoes a lot with my kids, starting them at about 3. they real quick get the concept. my youngest son was quite gifted at this and most other games. after i noticed his proficiency i would ask him questions in front of friends and family so he could show off his basic math skills. one afternoon while visiting a friend i asked son what is 2 + 4? etc. when he was able to do simple addition and subtraction calculations in his head, (not memory but figuring it out), my friend said " if he can do that he can multiply and divide". my friend spent a while explaining it, all verbal, nothing on paper. later that afternoon the young man was able to do square and square root, cube and cube root for simple problems all in his head. he was aged 5yrs 3mos, and born in april he was yet to start kindergarten when he did this.
i think he was able to do this by using skills he had learned in the practical application of math, in what, as a game is basically childs play. if you can visualize by counting the dots what will be a multiple of 5 and score points you can extrapolate on that and do all the basic math.
look out skids...
look out? for what? no worries here! actually i wouldn't have it any other way. i have 4 children, and love them all. i will admit that youngest son can be difficult, 15 yrs now, but he answers all my questions on material quantities for free and faster than you can push the buttons on a calculator.
Look out...
I expected the "conservatives" to chime in and to deride your post as being "coddling and liberal."
Perhaps I was wron . Or perhaps they haven't read your post yet.
Either way, I would agree with your previous post.
Actually I think that I am a conservative, actually more a libertarian.
But I think that skids is right on. It is the parents responsibilty to see that their kids are educated.
Not just ship them off to "government schools" and take whatever comes.
Agreed. I was an A/B student throughout school. The reason was simple, get a C get grounded. not for a day or for a week either. Mom and dad looked at homework constantly. Many parents today simply do not get involved. They expect teachers to handle it all.
My mom teaches at a Catholic school, retiring this year. I asked what has changed in her 30+ years of teaching. She says parents used to send their kids to Catholic school because they knew they would get a first class education. Now they send them because they have been kicked out ofpublic schools.
My parents are both teachers and even at their late age still very involved in teaching associations. I just asked them online if they are at all familiar with the notion of using calculators and not teaching math. Neither have heard of such a program.
I would contend that your school disctrict has some serious problems. This doesn't appear to be the norm at all. Many scholls ae restricting calculators all together.
On the homework front that you eluded to, we had a group of parents tell the district last year that there is too much homework. Little Bobby and Susie don't have time, what with the music lessons, french lessons, swimming, ballet , soccer... You get the piont.
Our schools are troubled to be sure. But in most cases look deeply and you'll find the problems reside with the parents not the schools. Kids can tell if you don't give a d##n.
I've got to get in on this thread and move the discussion to a higher level. Education level that is. I finished my masters degree a couple years ago at a state school in the midwest. I found out that every undergrad had to pass a school-wide literacy test before s/he could receive a diploma. The following question/observation seems obvious as heck, but it seems to me that the school/faculty would have found out whether any particular student could read or put a sentence together before 4 years was up?
He needs to learn. I grew up in a calculator free home and when I got to Chemistry and Physics old Avogadro and Planck were damned for all eternity with what I mentally heaped on their heads for coming up with numbers that really need a calculator to use. But they came up with those numbers without the benefit of a calculator! Thus, my instructors felt that I could do the math without one as well. When calculators were allowed in chemistry class I BEGGED for one, and finally got one a couple months after the rest of the class. I should have taken Dad up on those slide-rule lessons though. My guess is that there are still plenty of teachers at the high school and college level who do not believe in the use of calculators. And I don't understand how one could possibly do algebra, trigonometry or calculus without knowing the basics.
Were this my child I would waste no time in hiring somebody to teach him. My second call would be to the school board to lodge a complaint. By the time they get rolling on it will be to late for your friend's son, thus hiring a tutor. Places like Sylvan learning centers aren't cheap, but at least you know he will get what he needs.
Which part of the country do you live in?
I thought of the same question a long time ago. If you can use a calculator to get around doing whatever problem you encounter, do you really need to know the times table?
Friend of mine lives in Sydney, Australia. He told me to prepare for the university entrance exam, the teachers at his daughters' school told the girls just to remember all the formulae and plug in the numbers. Of course my friend was real mad but he was running out of time to correct their method of study.
Like everything else, the schools should teach basic principals and how to use them for problem solving. All those electronic gadgets are just aids.
When I use a calculator, I would mentally do a rough check just to make sure the answer makes sense.
Oh yes, I guess everyone who posts here knows what a slide rule is and knows how to use one. I showed one to my son not too long ago and he didn't have the vaguest idea.
Tom
Edited 8/21/2003 4:19:52 PM ET by TOMCHARK
Edited 8/21/2003 4:22:34 PM ET by TOMCHARK
Edited 8/21/2003 4:23:14 PM ET by TOMCHARK
i live in central fla right now and just kinda got on the scene as far as he goes.I try to teach him alot of stuff and he learns but when it comes to math he doesnt want to hear about anything but a caculator.I guess if thats all you were ever taught.......obviously i dont agree but i am trying
Tutoring is the way to go, either by family members or professional tutors.
Used to be tutoring was a way to get ahead. I don't know if it's because of parents' mistrust of the school systems or the increased competitiveness, now tutoring is a necessity just to stay with the pack.
Tom
I'm sorry Tom - I actually agree with your post - but the whole time I was reading it I just kept thinking of that Far Side cartoon where the dog in the back seat of a car is laughing at the dog in the yard as he is is saying, "ha ha, I'm going to the vet to get tutored!"Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Didn't come across that cartoon... really funny.
So are you saying that those kids who think they are getting tutored are actually getting screwed? :)
Tom
bud, Hi, I am a math teacher.....Basic facts are part of any good math curriculum and are taught, not only at school but at home.....Perhaps you should look into your son's school and how they are aligned with National Math Standards......
Second, addition and subtraction are an integral part of any 1st and 2nd graders' math curriculum......Multiplication and Division occurs, most often, in 3rd and 4th grade.......If your son needs help with the basic facts, there are many, many mathematics programs available online or with math software...
3rd, using a calculator is not a crutch......
The school sounds like a total loser. Probably run by slap-happy feel-good twits who would sh!t a concrete block if a kid got unhappy about something like having to actually think.
I was not allowed to use a slide rule in math class (except for the class they taught on how to use it, in senior year) until college. I had daily morning arithmatic tests from 4th grade on. Times tables by rote, recitation in front of the class. Long division, with Remainders. Fifth grade was Fractions and the lowest common denominator. Decimal conversion. 3 digit x 3 digit multiplication. In 7th grade we had to learn how to extract a square root with a pencil and paper. In 10th grade we were allowed to learn how to use log tables.
My dad had to learn the times tables up to 20x20. I only had to learn them to 12x12. Quick: how much is 15x15? Uh, where's the calculator? My old man woulda smacked me on the knuckles with a slide rule. We are quickly digging ourselves an electronic intellectual grave. Watch what happens when the batteries go dead....
'Not allowed to take school books home from school...??!!' Bud, I think you'd better talk your girlfriend into transferring that kid to a school where they've got a clue. No time to waste. Do it yesterday or the kid is doomed to carrying hod or plywood the rest of his days....
PS--my five year old starts school in a week. Kindergarden. He will stop you in your tracks to tell you that 7 plus 2 equals 9, just for fun. He reads. He writes. The bloody school he's going to attend had better have their act together or they're gonna have me all over them like stink on sh!t. Parents who ignore how good or bad the schools are are a waste of space. Your girlfriend's kid is lucky to have you around to bitch for him. But he probably won't realize it until he has kids of his own....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Quick: how much is 15x15? Uh, where's the calculator?
Binary analysis/propositions are often too limited - memory or calculator? How about mental "calculator" - invocation of the good old analytic processor?
I don't have the answer memorized - I don't need that answer enough to make it worth while (but I can spit out 12x12 at the drop of a ream) but I can figure it pretty quickly in my head: 10 x 15 = 150; 5 x 15 = (uh ...) 75; 75 + 150 = 225. took, say, 7-10 seconds.
One thing schools need to teach (and often [usually?] do) is how to get an answer.
See, e.g., this NPR story:
Friday, August 22, 2003Employers are using some unconventional job-interview techniques these days. Increasingly, they are focusing on problem-solving and situational questions. NPR's Wendy Kaufman reports on who is using them and what they're asking. [Emphasis added.]
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1405340.html
(I don't know how long that link will be good for - I think they move stuff around as the days pass.)
Religio-phobes should stop reading here ....
_______________________
Worship is not an hour in a building; even in a building dedicated to God.
Worship is an encounter with the holy presence of God!
You milage may vary .....
>> Quick: how much is 15x15?
Let me see... 1x(1+1)=2, so the answer is 225
One more example. What's 125x125?
12x(12+1)=156, add the two digits 25 behind, you get 15625.
It works but I have yet to prove it. Want to try?
Tom