Hey guys (and gals),
Need some suggestions.
Got another screen porch to build very soon and would like to hear opinions about flooring systems, specifically subfloor, where the HO wants the finish product to be indoor/outdoor carpet.
I’m not crazy about using the t&g OSB sub like I did on my last porch, so what do you suggest that will last? Customer is elderly woman so zero maintenance and upkeep is a primary goal here. Geography is approx. 50 miles NW of Charlotte, NC. Same climate, not in the mountains.
Thanks in advance,
David
Live in the solution, not the problem.
Replies
We put I/O carpeting over our regular (redwood) decking. This was about 20 years ago -- now I'd probably go with plastic decking. I can't see the need to use a solid subfloor, if the decking is reasonably tightly spaced.
The carpeting is loose, but secured at the edges by being tucked under the trim.
With this arrangement we don't worry too much about rain getting in -- it'll soak through and dry from both sides.
David,
Dan has a good solution.
Redwood is pricey. Have you looked into composite decking. I thought about PT T&G plywood for your job, but the water would be trapped under the IO carpet.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
In my limited experience, the PT plywood is crap anyway. It's so saturated that the thicknesses vary from 3/4" to 1 1/8" easy. Then, when it dries, the edges absolutely explode. Seen it snap Piffin screws.
She definitely wants I/O, so whatever I use has to be FLAT. Guess that negates 5/4x6 SYP decking. It's going to have knee-walls, but I'm still concerned about wind-driven rain. Maybe overly so?
Live in the solution, not the problem.
David,
You are right about 5/4 cupping. How about 2x? with a layer of noncorrosive expanded metal below the IO carpet?. If money budget allows, I would consider a precast or formed suspended slab with a healthy pitch. This would involve steel and an engineers stamp.
The key word is 'porch'. Any porch is subject to the elements.
Chuck S
NOT GOING TO AMS TOMORROW. BEEN THERE. DONE THAT. TOO MANY WANNA BE FANS.
(actually the traffic keeps me away. GO 01)live, work, build, ...better with wood
Is it pitiful that this is the best we could come up with on a Sat. nite @ 10:30???Live in the solution, not the problem.
The whole job is 10K, so concrete is out. Gonna look closer at a product I saw at Tarheel Lumber the other day while we were talking. It's by Diamond Hill Plywood Corp. (former sponsors of the Busch race @ Darlington), and looks to be a composite of 3/4x6 dimentions. Never used composite yet. Always been a wood guy, but lately the wood ain't all that.Live in the solution, not the problem.
Just some comments.
If you are going to have knee walls, then you will have wall scuppers to allow for trapped rain to exit?
Off the rack common board and dimensional lumber products have a low tolerance for being in a "trapped water' environment and soon begin to rot.
If you use treated for the floor framing and a composite for decking, followed by I/O carpet then the decking may telegraph its pattern into the I/O.
Would your customer accept the composite decking as a finish surface? Lots of choices. No rot, no scuppers. Allow for drip through rainwater to move away from under the porch. Use composit for knee wall bottom plates
Would your budget allow for a treated frame at the perimeter with YP joist at the interior, 3/4 Advantech, glue down EDPM and then I/O glued down with the same glue used for the EDPM. Your knee walls and scuppers would do well with this also! Basically build a covered flat roof with parapets and scuppers.
Instead of EDPM, would vinyl flooring sheet goods do the trick as a watersheild layer to glue the I/O to?
...............Iron Helix
PS---I agree about the P/T plywood........if you can find KDAT (kiln dried after treatment)treated ply you will have less variance and warping to deal with......more $ and often not common stock at local yards.
Appreciate your comments Helix,
What's your ideal detail for the scuppers in a knee-wall situation?
I don't want to re-invent the wheel here, and I'm wondering if enough moisture will ever accumulate so that there's an actual "flow" in any outward direction.
If I use a composite decking, I'll have airflow to aid in the drying out through evaporation. IMHO, evap. is going to ultimately be what keeps this thing dry as opposed to outflow, save for hurricane type situations. However, a well desinged porch needs to consider all possibilities.
The "telegraphing" you mentioned has me a bit concerned.
Keep the suggestions coming, that's how we all learn.Live in the solution, not the problem.
Scuppers are drainage openings in a parapet or knee wall that allow water to drain through. The roof/floor membrane is continuous through the opening to convey the water out of the structure.
Not sure of the size of the porch, the screened s/f area of exposure, size and ferocity of the local mosquitoes, height of knee walls, amount of overhang, direction of prevailing winds/storms, total average rainfall per year...so the size for a scupper is would be a hazardous guess.
.............Iron Helix
Another advantage of using open decking -- no scuppers needed.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Another advantage of using open decking -- no scuppers needed
Unless it lets the skeeters in <g> . . .
Ugh, always hated nailing off a deck laid over window screening . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The carpet keeps the skeeters out.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Not sure this will work, but what if you used Advantech subflooring, then add a layer of 15# roofing felt overtop, and then install 1/4 inch thick Hardie Board (cement board)on top of the felt. Just screw down the Hardie.
Glue your I/O carpet to the Hardie.
Haridie is water proof,, so when carpet gets soaked, Hardie should stop the water infiltration, but if Hardie gets a bit wet, the felt paper is a great defense, not to mention that Advantech has a 50 year warranty against water damage/rot.
Besides, how much water are you gonna get anyway? Make sure you have large soffit overhangs and that's half the battle won right there.
In this scenario, carpet will dry out from the topside only, but that shouldn't be a problem.
Several years back I was building a 12X20 shed attached to my garage...didn't get it all closed in before heavy rains fell ...rained continuosly for 2 days straight. My flooring was 3/4 T&G Advantech plywood. When the rain finally ended, I took a floor squeege and swept off the rain...floor was completely dry...all the rain did was bead up on the floor like a newly waxed car. After that, I was "sold." I put a 4 inch square piece of Advantech into a bucket of water and left it for a week. Afterwards, I removed it and checked it against a dry piece to determine swelling difference...there was none...both pieces were identical. Good stuff.
I haven't used Advantech in the last 2 years, cause most of my remodeling work has been kitchen/baths, but at that time it cost me around $18 a sheet for 3/4. Probably up to $24 by now.
All in all, you most likely could skip the felt and the Hardie Board and simply install the carpeting overtop the Advantech.
Personally, I HATE I/O carpet...period. That stuff causes more damage to floors than people think. I'd try talking them into just a deck floor and forget all about the stupid carpeting...but I know it's hard for people to change their ways.
Just thinking out loud.
Good luck with your project.
Davo
Having been out of the building "loop" for about 5 years, I'm unaware of the differences between Advantech and plain old OSB. Apparently they are significant. Mike Smith, for example, seems to swear by A-tech, and wouldn't allow a sheet of OSB on one of his job-sites. I have to give ample consideration to such a strong opinion from someone whose knowledge and experience I respect immensely. It sounds to me like A-tech is the real deal.
I think you're on the right track Davo. I'm not a big fan of the I/O either, but that's what the cust. wants. I'll let you know how it all shakes out.
ThanksLive in the solution, not the problem.
If the subfloor is to be other than concrete, personally I think you need to come up with a subfloor for this carpet that will encourage drainage and drying. No doubt that I/O carpeting can get wet, but nothing, especially a wood subfloor is going to give a long life of service in a swimming pool environment. I'm in Central NC so I understand your climate. We had rain blow in our screened porch this past Friday. It has 18" overhangs.
Advantech is a great subfloor - I'm a staunch supporter, but it's not an exterior product that is meant to go through wet and dry cycling for 5, 10 or 20 years, as I think you will find if you take a look at their web site.
Hate to say it, but I looked at that other thread where you posted the pics and was a bit appalled at the way non-exterior grade materials were used in an environment that will get wet. I declined to comment on that thread and didn't give it a lot of thought though.
Edited 3/18/2007 12:20 pm ET by Matt
Thankfully, the decision to use sliders on the other porch will make up for the poor planning on my part (and HO). Nothing in there will ever see water.
Lesson in planning learned! That's why I'm trying to explore all the options for this next project.
Looks like I'll end up with composite on the floor. Spoke to HO this AM, and suggested an I/O area rug as opposed to wall-to-wall.
Thanks for the suggestions and constructive criticism.Live in the solution, not the problem.
OK - good - I didn't know about the sliders on the other project.
Re this project, If you do go with wall to wall I/O carpet, I don't see any significant advantage to composite over a good grade of PT 5/4 board - unless you are thinking about a composite that is of a t&G style so as to yeild a pretty flat surface.
Edited 3/18/2007 4:04 pm ET by Matt
For budget reasons I'd LOVE to use a #1 grade, 5/4 PT if I thought it would STAY FLAT. I run the risk of cupping with any "board" floor, except for t&g, which I haven't ruled out completely yet.
The downside to the t&g is now I'm back to the possibility of trapping water. Do you see the vicious circle developing here?
At the moment, I'm liking the composite b/c it gives me several things I think I need:
1. A flat floor
2. A durable, long-lasting, and maint. free floor
3. A means of escape for blown-in rain water
4. Air circulation from below to aid in drying
With treated SYP, items 1&2 are questionable at best.
Live in the solution, not the problem.
Edited 3/18/2007 6:40 pm ET by davidhawks
What about that textured vinyl sheeting stuff (can't remember the name) on top of Structurewood Gold? It's a non-slip surface, no maintenance.
Dave
Here's a pic of a porch we did within the last year that we took 2 x 6 treated and turned them into "shiplap" with a couple of circular saws each set with correct depth and edge guide - it went pretty fast. The floor looked good and won't allow bugs to come through. Where the ceramic/fireplace is we used "detra" as a isolation membrane. Sorry I don't have a pic of the ends of the interlocking 2 x 6 's. It seems like it would do everything you're asking. We nailed it down with 16 hot dipped casing and a palm nailer.
Fonzie,
Thanks for the idea. BTW, nice porch.
Circular saws huh? Pretty cool. What was the relief cut, 3/4x3/4 or so? Do you know if it has stayed flat?
Live in the solution, not the problem.
Thanks for my part. It has stayed flat, also another porch we did about 14 years ago with the same floor has stayed flat (attachment), so I am confident recommending it. I don't know of any other option that doesn't allow space for insects - (or would trap crumbs). The setting is probably a little over 3/4 x 3/4 but close - trial and error on the setup. We make some sort of a jig to hold the board on edge for one cut. I forgot to mention that while we're at it we make a slight chamfer with the router to knock off the edge. We clamp the boards as tight as possible with pipe clamps w/extensions. The boards shrink a little but have stayed flat.
Fonzie-
Did you put the schluter ditra right over the shiplap? Any concern with food and stuff getting between the shiplap seams/grooves?
Kevin
Yes we stuck down the ditra with thinset right to the treated wood. I don't think crumbs in the small chamfers are a problem - they are pretty subtle grooves. I forgot to mention that we capped off the ends of these with a 2 x 2 that ends up under the wall plate of course. We used 2 x 6 decking outside the screened in porch, so the transition from ship-lap to standard decking isn't noticeable.
Do you by chance have a closeup shot of the grooves? Trying to picture the detail of it.
Thanks...
Kevin
I saved a couple of sample boards. I took a couple of shots of them on the dryer - let me know if this does it for you. I haven't been over there in a while and I guess I neglected to get a shot of the floor.Wait! I just found some pics from that job. Here's a shot of the floor: At the wall plate it changes to butted 2 x 6's (with chamfer).
I see, that really helps... thanks. I guess the chamfer eases the edge, making it less likely something will catch the freshly cut edging. Guess like they do with engineered flooring.
Kevin