I do mostly trim carpentry and cabinets but I am going to put up a small wall to make closet. (48″x 84″) I don’t have framing nailer, and I was wondering if it is okay to use 3″ screws to “nail” the 2×4’s together.
thanks,
marion
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Replies
Absolutely.
3.5" screws would give you better 'toenail' action though.
Do either of those count as sex?
As a proper lady, I could only say that 3 1/2" might be a bit lacking and the nailing is done mostly with 3 1/4" (what disappointment)--so no, neither is sex.Marion
ROFLMAO... That was good!
Before I opened the thread, I was thinking this belonged in the tavern.
Keep that up and it'll get there very quickly.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
It's not recommended to use sheetrock screws for anything other than sheetrock, but I have been known to use them to frame something non-load-bearing like closet walls. I would use 2 1/2" screws for toenailing, or 3" for attaching studs through the end plate.
Why mention SR screws? Just use structural screws like deeck screws. The SR screws are too brittlefor framing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was afraid you'd catch me for mentioning Piffin screws!
For anything that was subject to stress I'd spring for GRK's or another structural screw. For a closet, I don't see anything wrong with using cheap/easy to drive sheetrock screws. To be safe, the OP shouldn't use them. I still will on occasion though ;-)
GRK are what I use. I do a lot in homes with old horsehair plaster so driving a screw produces no big pounding vibrations that loosen the plaster or crack it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have been very quiet about this, but since YOU bring it up, I use lots of screws on my ancient house for that very reason. Houses this old do not like to be hammered on!
I've had far more deck screws snap off than SR screws.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
keep the ratio up...
buy chinese...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What the Heck ar sheet Rock screws.???????? Here they are called Piffin screws. Geeesh Rookie
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
I screw everything together around the house. I don't own a framing nailer either, and messed up my arm a few years back so if I try to hammer, my elbow starts to feel like I am driving the nails crosswise through it.
McFeely's has "optimized shank length screws, with the unthreaded portion of the shank 1-5/8 long, so they go through 2X material, and can pull it together instead of locking things apart.
I saw something similar at the local lumber yard last week. You might want to see if you can get something similar. Also, I suggest either torx or square drives, the Phillips tend to try and cam out if you put much torque on them.
I was thinking of using deck screws. If I had the time I would order from McFeely's. I use impact driver so screws drive real nice. Thanks,
Marion
you could have told her to use 4"...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
they deck screws you need are at the Big Boxes and are up to 5"...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Marion
Home depot and most hardware stores stock screws with phillips head, square drive(McFeelies) or torq head (starhead)
Given a choice select the torq head, nearly impossible to cam out the way you can with phillips head or square drive..
Nope. We've discussed this at length in other threads, but no, screws are not replacement for nails. They are very different in how they react to movement.
Simply put, during movement the heads of screws snap off where the heads of nails simply bend and maintain their grip on material.
There is no code provision for screws as opposed to nails.
BTW, from a proper man to a proper lady; stop comparing length, width is where it's at.
It's all in the angle you drive it in.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
very funny!
....screws are not replacement for nails.
I thought I was the only one who felt that way.
Oh well....closets don't count in matters of fine homebuilding I suppose.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
No actually I agree also. Like was already mentioned nails will bend where screws will break. They are made for different applications.
The guy could always rent a framer. It would save him some time and effort and maybe having to repair it down the road.
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Actually....I believe the OP is a she.
Why she can't use a hammer, I dunno.
We're talking about a closet here....not an entire development.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Yea thats true....
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Absent a power nailer, it can be just about impossible to nail framing in tight quarters, such as a closet. It takes much less clearance to use a standard full-sized drill/driver than it takes to swing a hammer.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Dan.....you know I love ya man....but that is pure bullocks.
Difficult at times? Yes.
"just about impossible"? Horsehockey.
This aint the mystery of the pyramids.....closets were routinely built before the advent of the framing nailer.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
You can get a drill/driver into a spot that's about 12" deep (+/- depending on size of drill and length of screw and bit), and can do it while the arm holding the drill is fairly contorted (wraped around pipes, etc). You need a minimum of about 18" to swing a hammer, and need to have the arm able to move freely. Folks that aren't regular carps need more room (closer to 3 feet) to swing since they have less strength/speed in their swing.That's the way it works out, unless you've got a different kind of physics from the rest of us.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Wow....yer really stretching to make a point here.
How many of those nails will have to be driven in such tight quarters?
If the OP feels confident enough to believe the space is adequate to accomodate the use of a framing nailer, I'm confident enough that there will be enough space to swing a hammer comfortably.
But as neither of us (you/me) are privy to the exact site conditions, I'll stick to the original point of the thread, in that I disagree that it is "OK" to substitute screws for nails as a regular practice.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
A framing nailer will fit in about the same amount of space as a drill-driver. Either will work in much tighter quarters than regular nailing.Now, a regular carp can probably think ahead better, and knows a few tricks of the trade, so he can avoid awkward nailing situations better than a DIYer. Eg, he's more likely to see in advance where he needs nailers and won't have to piece them in after the rest of the framing is in place. He can "see" in his head the way a partition should be framed up, and will know which pieces should go in first for easiest nailing. Plus he'll have that power nailer.And there's nothing "wrong" with doing non-load-bearing framing with screws, even if they're only Piffin screws. Once you have the drywall on you hardly need the framing fasteners at all.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
And there's nothing "wrong" with doing non-load-bearing framing with screws, even if they're only Piffin screws. Once you have the drywall on you hardly need the framing fasteners at all.
Really?
Whole lotta wasted hours securing "no-bearing" framing members on my jobs then. Shoulda just got the drywall up quicker.
Maybe she ( OP ) shouldn't bother with the screws either than?
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
> Whole lotta wasted hours securing "no-bearing" framing members on my jobs then.That may well be the case. ;)
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Jaybird,
I have to disagree with you here. Screws do have their place in leu of nails.. My authority? Fine Home Building magazine..
Check the article they did on roofing.. compared nailed rafters, nailed rafters with simpson and other brands of brackets and lag screws..
Lag screws won, well actually a single lag screw.. they never compared multiple lag screws. When tested to destruction the wood always failed and the screw never failed..Plus the screw was improperly installed, read the text and you see where they went wrong..
Yeh, if we are speaking of Piffan screws (sheet rock screws) you have a point
I disagree.
Fine Homebuilding "the authority"?
Sorry guy....I like the mag pretty good. But they aint the "authority" on anything.
Any mag that would print an article in which hanging doors without the use of shims was acceptable isn't any authority I'm looking to for definitive answers.
Screws are not an acceptable alternative to nails for framing.
Aint an inspector around that would allow such to pass.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Jaybird
I took a short cut, the authority was the University of wisconsin school of wood (I hope I remember the details correct). if you check the book the full credentuals are there.. they fully tested each connection to it's failure point and repeated it. well documented.
Easy enough to repeat if you doubt them..
"Screws are not an acceptable alternative to nails for framing."
Respectfully disagree, my friend. Installing nails may be faster and/or cheaper than installing screws, but I fail to see how nails are inherently superior to screws. After all, screws are just "threaded nails". If both are of equal strength and installed with equal care, I have to believe that a threaded nail beats an unthreaded nail by mere virtue of its interlocking design.
Am I missing something?
Screws are not an acceptable alternative to nails for framing.
Any fastener that meets the code requirements and the load requirements is fine. - both nails and screws are allowed per BOCA and UBC. Like nails, though, they have to be the right type and size. Piffin screws are NOT framing screws!! You wouldn't (legally, per code) frame a wall with 8d nails, and you can't do it with drywall screws either.
Screws are typically used for steel studs - haven't ever seen nails used in that application, though they probably could be. Nothing wrong with using screws for wood framining though.
Edited 1/4/2007 4:08 pm ET by woodturner9
....both nails and screws are allowed per BOCA and UBC.
I don't build by minimum standards.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
....both nails and screws are allowed per BOCA and UBC.
I don't build by minimum standards.
If that's the case, why aren't you using screws, since they exceed the holding capacity of nails and are therefore a "higher standard".
I guess by your argument, everyone who uses nails is building to minimum standards :-)
Im with you . Nails are made with different metals and shear strengths etc....
If nails were better you'd see framers with screw guns.
but I did find a very interesting site.
http://www.mcvicker.com/vwall/page031.htm
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Edited 1/4/2007 5:30 pm by Sancho
You don't see more framers with screw guns because it takes longer to drive screws than nails with a nailer. Even with an auto feed screw gun, you would be lucky if you managed to get half as many driven as nails. In a production or piece work environment that is a killer.
However, you wouldn't have situations where a guy misses the stud while sheathing, and seriously injures or kills a coworker as the nail turns into a projectile.
The screw is probably going to be a better connection, if it is a screw designed for the application, and installed correctly. But again that is a problem, a nail gun is pretty much a straight forward proposition, either it drive the nail home or it doesn't. When it doesn't you adjust it, and it does. With screws, you can screw up.
Improperly installed (too much torque) you do pop heads, suck them down so tight that they split the wood, or when going into end grain you can strip them.
I know, I have done all these things with my impact gun.
I love screws because I can undo them when I "screw up" . When in tight quarters use a palm nailer,it will drive 20D galvies like a hot knife through butter,and it takes a lot of work out of nailing hurricaine clips.
You need a minimum of about 18" to swing a hammer, and need to have the arm able to move freely. Folks that aren't regular carps need more room (closer to 3 feet) to swing since they have less strength/speed in their swing.
I'm not a carp, more of a sparky :-)
In any event, I have driven 16d nails into framing in tight spots, where there was only 1/2" to 1" clearance between the hammer head an nail - maybe 5" total clearance. It's a pain in the behind, and I don't like doing it, but it can be done. A bit of strength helps - maybe you need to bulk up a bit? ;-)
So I'd say 5" or so is the minimum clearance to drive a nail - and I think it would be tougher to install a screw under those conditions.
> In any event, I have driven 16d nails into framing in tight spots, where there was only 1/2" to 1" clearance between the hammer head an nail - maybe 5" total clearance.I'd have to seriously doubt that, unless you're a regular gorilla. You can't get enough momentum going in a 1" swing to move a 16d nail through framing, at least not if there's the slightest bit of give to the framing (and it seems that the tighter the spot the more give the framing has).> So I'd say 5" or so is the minimum clearance to drive a nail - and I think it would be tougher to install a screw under those conditions. Actually, when you're talking something like a narrow stud cavity, you can often do a lot better with a drill/driver and long extension, layed right against the adjacent stud.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
> In any event, I have driven 16d nails into framing in tight spots, where there was only 1/2" to 1" clearance between the hammer head an nail - maybe 5" total clearance.
I'd have to seriously doubt that, unless you're a regular gorilla. You can't get enough momentum going in a 1" swing to move a 16d nail through framing, at least not if there's the slightest bit of give to the framing (and it seems that the tighter the spot the more give the framing has).
Well, I'm not a gorilla :-)
As I said, it's not easy, but can be done. The technique I use is to use both hands, near the hammer head, and "push" the hammer more than swinging it.
Great way to give yourself carpal tunnel, BTW :-)
Actually, it's possible to drive a nail with only about 1/4" of clearance between the nail head and the obstruction.
Hold the bent end of a flat bar in your left hand. Position the nail, and hold it in place with the far end of the flat bar. With the hammer in your right hand, hit the flat bar as near the nail as possible. Give it a few moderate whacks, to get it well started, but without hurting your left hand. Switch to a bigger crowbar when space permits, and finish it off. Doable, but neither fast nor easy.
As to the OP's question, for a non-bearing partition, screws other than drywall screws are fine.
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is a palm nailer. They're at least as easy to use as a screw gun, and generally fit in tighter spaces.
-- J.S.
> Hold the bent end of a flat bar in your left hand. Position the nail, and hold it in place with the far end of the flat bar. With the hammer in your right hand, hit the flat bar as near the nail as possible. Give it a few moderate whacks, to get it well started, but without hurting your left hand. Switch to a bigger crowbar when space permits, and finish it off. Doable, but neither fast nor easy. Which hand do you use to hold the nail?
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Being right handed, I position the nail with the right, pressing the point in slightly, then hold it in place with the flat bar in my left, and pick up the hammer with the right. The first tap, if I get the angle wrong, can sometimes flip the nail out of place. It can take two or three tries to get one started, but it's not too hard after that.
If the obstruction is strong enough and in the right place, you may also be able to start the nail well enough by using the bar as a lever and pressing it in enough to hold. If there's more room, you may be able to start the nail this way, and switch to the palm nailer when you get far enough to make it fit.
I've also tried pressing nails in with C-clamps. That hasn't worked out, except once in a while to get one started. For some reason, they tend to bend more under constant pressure rather than impact.
Another handy gadget I've made for this is a piece of #4 rebar about 18" long, with a 3/8" diameter by 1/8" deep recess in one end (did it with an end mill in a lathe). If you can make the angle work, it lets you do the hammering where you have more room to swing.
-- J.S.
I've tried that sort of thing once or twice. The nail slips loose before I can even get the hammer raised. I have had success in this same general situation driving the nail through a piece of lath and then securing that in place somehow, but regardless of how I get the nail started, I can't make much progress pounding on the bar -- the bar hand will go numb before the nail's in.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
I know what you mean about the numb hand. The important thing is to make the impact point to hand distance a lot larger than the impact point to nail distance. Ratios under, say, 10:1 will kill your hand in a hurry. Better to get 20:1 or more. Forget the macho two swat thing, tap away moderately so you don't hurt your hand, and switch to a bigger bar when you've made room for it.
The other thing, of course, is that this is only for a few nails once in a while -- those odd special places. If you had to do a whole day's work that way, it would definitely be time to re-think things at a higher level.
-- J.S.
When I redid my downstairs bath, eg, every other nail was like that -- too tight to swing a hammer. I tried every trick in the book before switching to screws.The bath had been butchered by the original "professional" builder, such that nailers were missing where needed, etc. The ceiling wasn't even level (off by over 2 inches in one corner), because he didn't want to spend the time to install the required blocking & nailers.Then I had to fit in extra studs to suit the requirements of the shower stall I was installing, spaced in-between the existing studs. So a lot of studs with 6-8" clearance that needed to be toenailed in. Then blocking for the plumbing between those.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
...spend the time to install the required blocking & nailers.
AHA! They're not called "screwers" now, are they?!
; )
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Closest I came to success in this sort of situation was when I had to pull a nail OUT in a tight spot (toenail holding a truss end in place, working through the soffit). I used a crows foot with a forked tail, placing the tail around the nail head. Then wailed away on the head of the bar with a 3# hammer. Drug out four 20d nails this way, even though I was effectively pulling them out sideways.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
"I'd have to seriously doubt that, unless you're a regular gorilla. You can't get enough momentum going in a 1" swing to move a 16d nail through framing,"I knew there was a reason for these hairy arms!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I('ve driven lots of framing nails in 12" to 14" of room.
Where's this book that says you have to have 18";)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah....and where's this closet she's building?
Rabbit hutch?
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Sancho,
Screws are better and Fine Home building proves it.. Would you be interested in the page number?
Sure why not gimme the issue number to while your at it.
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Sancho,
It's Tauton press's book on roofing, I believe page 99 I've referanced it many, many, times before, every time the subject comes up. The article was in an earlier publication.
So that makes it right. As usual you just blow off any referance that shows your incorrect.
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Sancho,
Blow off any referance? No, I simply showed you where actual tested data didn't support your conclusion..
If you want to use nails go right ahead.. They meet requirements..
Like MY link said..Its up to the building inspector and the local/city codes
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Sancho,
I can give you one example of where screws will work while nails won't.
Hang an upper cabinet on a SIP's panel..
It's done with a french cleat and requires enough screws to safely carry the weight involved. If nails were used they'd simply cam out. While screws afford the required grip to hold..
I can think of a dozen other application where nails are inferior to screws.
Now there are certain applications where nails are OK and they certainly can be installed much quicker but try to hold a twisted board flat with nails and you will quickly learn the limits of nails..
Frenchy, have you made any of these french cleats? What have you used?
I think I may have made one in my time.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Blue-eyed-devil
I hope you aren't having fun at my expense. So I'll describe them to you, you probably have done this sort of thing before only didn't know they were called french cleats?
Basically they are two sticks of wood cut at a 45 degree angle and put on "backwards" That way the weight of the object tries to wedge the cleat off the wall. Nails would simply pull lose. To carry the weight you may have to have several cleats running full width.
They are remarkable to use.. carefully determine level and where they go and screw everything in place. Then simply lift the cabinet up into place and let it slide down the 1/2inch or so.. Now the more weight in it the firmer it's held in place!!! Installing cabinets becomes a much faster job. I used to have a jig to ensure that both cleats carried their share of the load it made installation a few minutes job with no strain.
My tool cabinets used simple gravity to keep everything in place but you might need to add a couple of back up screws so customers don't think the cabinets are "Loose"
I'm not funning you Frenchy..just checking for regional differences in verbage.
I did exactly that when I built one over my washer and dryer in my first house. I fretted over that installation and still fret about it today. I had to bolt the member onto concrete. I had to scribe to the wall. Of course I was a framer so the cabinet was extremely rough framelike LOL!
I also framed a wall in that basement with ....1x2s!!!! On the flat! I used to try stuff like that (french cleats and 1x2 walls) for fun!
blue
"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
well talk about being bored! i just read all 127 posts and i've came to the conclusion to just frame out the closet in solid steel, welded joints. no screws or nails!
Nah! Reenforced concrete.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Fine where you are, but here in earthquake country we can't always depend on gravity to hold still for us. ;-)
-- J.S.
Get with the program!! They're FREEDOM cleats!
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Well frenchy ,
heres what the editors at JLC say
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/459d73ce0016a96627177f00000105fe/UserTemplate/82?s=459d73ce0016a96627177f00000105fe&c=44a0a741b1ba36f3cf6f807478f832b6&p=1&q=1
wheres your link?
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Sancho,
There are plenty of others who have the Tauton press book. You could actually buy it and read it which considering where you are posting should be a requirement. <G> I don't know how to link to a book so I won't link (never have, never will)
Simply because you can post a link to something doesn't make it right and because you can't doesn't make it wrong..
Geez - lots of replies to this one!! I had to give my two cents worth...
1. Screws are stronger and have more holding power than nails. I've been in Japan for 13 years and have had an impact driver for 7years. Ever since they were invented, screws have become the fastener of choice for anything once the framing is done.
2. There are lots of screws (like deck screws) that can be used for fastening framing members. If you are building internal walls, I'd recommend screws if time is not an issue. Screwed studs/corners do not pull apart, ever. Impact drivers also make the work so easy.
3. I've seen lots of issues where screws could have done the job a lot better than nails, plus they can be removed afterwards if a mistake is made, with little damage to the framing/finished area. They allow for super clean work, even in framing. While some carpenters might say making the frame look nice and neat doesn't have any effect on the structural, it does have an effect on the customers. Screws can help achieve a nice, neat finished product, even in framing.
4. I spent the summer in Calgary, AB backframing and fixing mistakes of framers who were racing to get the job done and doing incredibly sloppy work. I left Japan in May, and brought only my impact driver, circular saw (Japanese Makita not sold in North America) and some hand tools. Spent the whole summer fixing other peoples mistakes and getting houses ready for inspection, sometimes spending days in each house after the framers were done, and all my work was done with screws.....3 1/2" square drive zinc coated wood screws.
Screws are the future.
Scott S
...screws have become the fastener of choice for anything once the framing is done.
Thanks for your input.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Everything has its place when used properly, but - "Screws are stronger and have more holding power than nails." is just plain wrong. Some screws may be better than some nails in some situations, but a blanket statement like that is like saying the weather in Florida is always nicer than the weather in Maine, or men are always stronger than women, or JLC is always better than FHB, or women always smell better than .....might be true sometimes, but asserting that it is always so is ignorant.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're right, I was making a generalization about screws, but I'm sure you know the point I was trying to make. The fact is, with the invention of drill/drivers and impact drivers, screws are becoming prevalent and are being used more and more in applications that used to call for nails.
Scott S
Exactly. I have no problem with screws in an application like this, but hesitate where shear strength is important. in any case, There are screws and then there are SCREWS!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That statement is nonsense.
Screws hold better, don't withdraw, and not all screws have heads that snap off. come in a variety of degrees of hardness just like nails do and are just fine for this sort of application.
There are a lot more types of screw out there than just Piffen screws a little investigation will find one suited to the job.
Whether the heads snap or not isn't my main concern. The splitting of the studs as the screws go through is a common occurance. (Unless of course you are pre-drilling?)
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Edited 1/4/2007 2:36 pm ET by JDRHI
> Whether the heads snap or not isn't my main concern. The splitting of the studs as the screws go through is a common occurance. (Unless of course you are pre-drilling?)Maybe you're just getting a lot of bad lumber.I can't say that it's been my experience that screwing causes more splits than hammer nailing. Again, a power nailer can often sink a nail without splitting where other techniques would have caused a split, but splitting in screwed framing is rare if you use the right fasteners and a little common sense.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Jaybird
I see plenty of split studs in framing when nailed..in fact I'll bet it's just as easy to split a stud with a nail gun as a screw gun.. wanna bet?
U might not be awarte that a lot of screws are available with self drilling tips that will even enter hardwood without splitting
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffan,
Come on!
If you won't say bad things about screws and the rest of us don't argue about it, we might be forced to discuss politics to get a decent rant going <G>
Looks like I'm on both sides of this one doesn't it? I'm suffering from gridlock in DC already!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am aware.....but screws by nature do much more "damage" while passing through wood than do nails.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Allon,
Yes there are code provisions, it comes under the heading of alternative methods..
Second the heads may snap off on sheetrock screws nearly everyone admits that but proper screws not only hold better they have more retaining power..
I know that you are going to challenge me on that so I'm ready with a good source for you..
Ready?
FINE HOME BUILDING
They wrote a book about roofing and on page 99 (I think) there is a comparison properly done of all the methods used to attach rafters to top plates..
Nails, Simpson brackets, other brands of brackets and screws..
Actaully one screw and it was even improperly installed, yet it was tops!
When the connection failed in most cases it was the fastner or bracket. IN the case of the screw the wood failed.. One screw compared to the best nailing and nailing brackets..
They never tried two screws!
Home Depot carries the Phillips Square Driv deck screws, available in different colors. They are coated for outdoor use. You the 3" #8 and the #9 3.5 inch are what you will use, I personally think you should use the #9 as much as possible - I don't like #8 for framing.
You're not building a load bearing wall - screws are just fine for this application.
The Ryobi impact driver is great, as is the Ridgid 12v angle impact driver - both are cheap too!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
xxPaulCPxx
May I suggest that instead of phillips head or even square drive screws that you look at star drive screws?
I cannot cam out of them like I can out of square drive or phillips head. They are priced where the square drive heads are and come in a variety of sizes including 8 Inch long #10's (7 corners hardware in st paul is the only place I've found them ion that size though normally they are available in up to 6 inch size..
Driving screws into hardwoods has tought me that they really are the cat's meow!
Hey guy's, remember nails? time it took you to argue which screw he could have framed up half a dozen closets that size. Jim
I had a short ceiling joist that the building inspector didn't like. He didn't feel that it was properly attached to the stud and initially wanted me to install a short stud immediately adjacent to support it.
I offered to use #12 Square Drive, forged steel screws from McFeeley. He looked at them, asked a couple of questions, and said OK.
(And, the #10 screws do NOT break their heads, even when screwing a 3" screw into a stud without predrilling!!)
I do most of my work in old homes and I choose to screw all the framing that I do. I don't have a air nailer (yet). I don't hand nail because if you start banging around in a old house you can start damaging the wall finishes. I use 3in course thread drywall screws.
I've had nothing but success with them. Stronger than hand nailing in my opinion.
~Mike~
You don' need a framing nailer, just use a hammer.
Marion, you could balance the studs till you put the board on and they'd do their job as vertical wall stiffeners. I've seen it done many times on metal studs.
blue
"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Just a closet wall. Nail it together with your trim nailer.
Doodabug,
NO nailer!
No framing nailer he said.
PL400 and a trim nailer....
and it was "she" said...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks for the correction.
so that aside...
we gonna go with the PL and trim nailer???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think it is good enough, yes.
I think by now we would have had it all finished including rock and we be sitting there drinking coffee along with a pastry watching the lady paint her closet..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
....watching the lady paint her closet..
What is she wearing while painting this closet?
Sorry Marion. I'm just a man.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
WHEW!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Holy moley!
I had no idea that this was such a hot topic. I do trim carpentry. I have 4 compressors, one for shop, five gallon craftsman, hot dog, and little senco with 5 small nailers. The biggest one a is a 15 gauge PC250--which I would no more try to use to frame any wall, than I would use my Grex 23 pinner to install 8" base. I do have a palm nailer(senco) but it stopped working on a basement wall I built this summer. I will buy another, but thought I could save $70-80 and use screws.
Renting a nailer(Bostitch) is only $25 bucks, but I have to buy $50 in nails for a nailer I wouldn't buy, if I were buying a framing nailer.
A hammer is the best choice of weapons. I can assure you that I can swing a hammer, and I own about 6 of them that are not 12oz. or 10oz. heads. I also spilt my own fire wood with an 8 lb. maul.
This closet wall is in a restaurant kitchen. And in a city where the word sheetrock/drywall requires a permit. The owners are dividing off a large "sandwich" shop to turn it into office space. Another wall 10'tall,72" long with 3/0 panel door was to be the other part of the job. The closet wall was a fire wall with added insulation. I was going to remove the base in "closet" and install 6" tile as base and re-use base to match in wall with door. I called the owners the other morning to make sure they had removed the big things from room before I started. And they told that the women who were renting the space where going to do the walls in exchange for a months rent. I had bid the job at a little under $1000. To the owners credit(I've known them for about 15 years)they thought the women who are renting were going to use me to do the work.
I have lost work before because I was not the cheapest bid, but I have never lost work that was agreed to and I had gotten "the start as soon as you can". No I did not have deposit or signed contract--I've known these people for a long time. I may need to re-think this part of doing business.
Thanks for the helpful info.Edited to remove ****'s and provide a word that won't get me kicked out of here.
Edited 1/9/2007 9:43 pm ET by Marion
Marion,
We regulary get our undies in a bunch over this topic.. Some of it's in fun, some is just reaction, and it will never ever be settled.. (if it were I'd change sides just to keep it going <G>)
You see there are these frustrated hairy chested types who feel they aren't complete unless they are bashing away at things. While there are the more informed intelligent types who feel such crudness is simpy uncalled for..
(That should pizz just about every body off!)
<G>
so use screws...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
just wait till ya ask which nailer to buy.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
So you got screwed.
yea or using drywall screws to hang cabs that usually gets everyone going to :>)
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Yeah I love that.
Getting everyone going on the Great Screw Debate that is.
And using sheetrock screws to hang cabinets ;-)
try a pencil thread as in where do you get your pencils or framing or standard pencils post it then GD&R fast :>)
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
Ooh, I'm feelin' naughty, I'm gonna do it.
Your a bbbbaaaddddd mmmmmaaannnn :>)
View Image Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "
It depends if your going to frame up the walls and stand them in place or stick frame them. You still don't need a framing gun unless the size of the job warants it. If you end up stick framing and you need to do a lot of toeing, remember that two 8ds = one 16d and you could pre drill with a slightly smaller diameter bit. So you don't have to smash giant 16ds overhead with a framing mallet, not fun. Of course if your framing up and standing the walls in place, then a framing mallet and 16ds is definately what you want to do. Screwing is good too, especially with a good impact driver. Your not commited to one over the other since both are acceptable to the authorities. Just use whatever it takes to make the job more fun and easy for you. I some how doubt that an inspector will accept finish nails and pl though. you could ask them though. They usually go by shank diameter or the eqivalent. I don't know if heads or the absense of makes a difference to them, I would think that it does, if nothing else just because of the holding purchase that the head of the nail or screw affords.
Pasties. (What?? Oh, yeah, pastries.)
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
I can't eat a pastry while watching a lady paint any more than I can talk on the phone while driving over a cliff wondering if I have my clean underwear on....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can watch... no problem...
I'll do that for ya...
now for the phone, clift, underware deal - that's yur problem...
I'm sure if you are on the phone you won't notice the over the clift trip but if you do I'm sure more than yur undies will need changing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
> while driving over a cliff wondering if I have my clean underwear on....What difference does it make? Won't be clean for long.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
What do you need the trim nailer for? The office I'm sitting in has two of its walls PL'ed to the concrete floor, wedged (and screwed) to the joists above, and held at the corners by a few screws into the plastic webs of my ICFs. And some drywall tape and mud, if you want to count that!
Get a grip, guys, this is a frickin' closet! Two of my closets are separated by a piece of 1/2" MDF that serves as the back-side of two shelves and does double duty as the wall too! Why waste storage space on studs and drywall?
A closet is cabinetry inside a house, not structural framing. So it's dovetails, hide glue and contrasting wood pegs all the way!
use the trim nailer pins as clamping till the PL sets up...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If it's a 15 ga trim nailer, no need for the PL! (grin!)
yur right...
couple extra pins... call it good..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
There is a story (not sure how true) that Charlie Chaplin hired studio carps to build his mansion in Hollywood. Now studio carps build sets that are just supposed to last a few days, and would never use two nails when one would do. The manison was falling apart within a couple of years.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Marion, sorry but you've inadvertantly rekindled the ongoing "Screws vs. Nails" war. Just to catch you up on where the trenches are here's some things I've picked up along the way - I'll try to be fair to the nail side but I am a screw partisan.
Nails are used everywhere, have been used for centuries in various forms, their most common application is of course residential home construction. The men (and some women) on this board who are proffesional home builders can drive home a 16d 3.5" nail in two swats from a hammer. More than a few of them think that if you are going to fasten two pieces of wood together, you should first drive approximatly 1000 16d 3.5" nails FIRST so you will then be able to fasten those two pieces of wood together with the requisite two swats from a hammer. Some of the proffesionals here even believe that if a nail is fastened with more than two swats from a hammer it will have a weaker hold on the wood.
A perfectly good alternative for the nail only crowd is the use of a pneumatic nail gun, it and a compressor could be rented for about $200 I would imagine, plus nails. Be aware that this tool will no-stih kill you if you use it wrong. This is a firearm whose use happens to help join wood instead of bringing down large animals.
You could also use a palm nailer, another alternative nailing device, that is much safer. However, it does drive in the nails using dozens of blows instead of the premium one or two. Some pros here do not believe a palm driven nail will hold like a two stroke driven nail. Again, this is a rented tool set, though cheap palm nailers are easily had for $50.
These people have seen numerous examples of screwed together framing gone bad. The drywall screw in the early days of its use was a prime culprit. These screws were not intended for connecting anything but drywall up to wood. They are usually #6 size, and they can snap very easily. Other authorites seemed to have last looked at screws in the 1950's. There is no refference to modern cold rolled threaded screws, only the soft metal tapered wood screws that are now only really associated with boat building.
Personally, I believe most of the preceding is cpar. That's just me personally, of course. I'm brighter than a small appliance bulb... usually... when sober... but I am not a professional home builder.
I have however done some rudimenary comparisons of screws and nails, side by side, in the same wood. I posted my results here about a year ago - do a search here on screws vs. nails if you want to see them. I used a few examples of nails and screws in shear connections where it would seem that nails would show their obvious superioritiy... and they didn't. Time after time the nails pulled free of the wood while the screws stayed put at the same level of force. Now, this cannot be used to prove that ALL screws are better than ALL nails. During the tests I found some pretty crummy screw brands. I intend to run a much more in depth test series, possibly this summer, to give a more in depth look a comparing screws and nails.
Welcome to the war!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
... but I am not a professional home builder.
As this thread drags on, I've started to wonder which camps the various posters fall into.
From what I can tell, it appears that more than a few of the "screws will do" guys, do not build for a living.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
If you build for a living you have the power nailer, and you drive enough nails that the speed and cost factors of nails vs screws are significant.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Jaybird,
Your observation is valid.. but not for the reason you suppose.. A professional is not always going to do a superior job to an amature.. some may but not all and not always..
The reason a pro uses nails has to do with his pay.. The reason he's a professional..
He doesn't do it for love but for a paycheck..
An amature has other motivations.. he may very well be in a position where the time differance is of no consequence..
With the advent of nail guns An amature can nail nearly as fast as a pro the nails are set just as deep and in the same pull of the trigger.. I own 7 nail guns but still my home is assembled with screws.. The reasons have to do with craft rather than speed..
Its just like deja-vu all over again Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Your observation is valid.. but not for the reason you suppose..
I didn't "suppose" anything. I was making an observation.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Jaybird,
Well if we didn't have our regular arguement about screws versis nails we'd be forced to talk about politics to get a decent rant going <G>
So true.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
I could not have said it better than JDRHI in all of his posts.-Allon
Just like everything, I suspect there is alot of middle ground that you and I will never hear about in a debate so polarized as this. I'll bet there are a whole lot of people here who do this for a living and might sometimes use a screw or two (or a dozen) for things that carry more that one lb. of weight. I'll bet they never say a word about the subject becuase they don't wan't to get caught up in a holy war.
Me, I'm going to take a long hard look at those new Hurriquake nails. I'll buy a box and slap a few into some OSB and rip it apart - then do the same with the Senco screws that are my current favorite. If they are even close to the Sencos, then I will Crazy-Go-Nuts with them when I shearwall the interior of my bedroom.
BTW, can you give me a plausable explination why she would need a building inspector for 48"x84" box in the corner of a room that no one will live inside? Is there a real reason she needs to figure out on her own how to use a potentially lethal tool (nailgun) that professionals seem to keep misusing on themselves on a regular basis? Do you thing the nail job of a first time framer is going to be any where near your quality - compared to something as easy to do as driving a screw? She has her own shop, and might even have her own compressor for a palm nailer - great for her! I'll bet a palm nailer is in her future... if we haven't burned a smoking hole in the ground for her enthusiasm for this board by now.
What about the next person who asks the same question... what swats a hammer using two hands? Framing a simple 48"x84" box with a two handed hammer swat in ludacris. You've seen my hammer work before - it's not much better! (tap, tap....tap...tap tap...tap) Your skills and technique are hard won over year of work and millions of nails driven carefully by your strong and manly grip. Now go duct tape your first two fingers to your palm, have your buddy punch you in the bicep as hard as he can - with knuckle - and nail yourself up a wall. That's close to what it's like for the rest of us. No matter what, we will never be able to keep up with you on a framing gig with the limited experience we have - and we aren't going to get enough new experience on the limited small projects we have for ourselves. We will never achieve that nail nirvana you have reached.
While she probably doesn't have to finish that closet in and hour - like you would (or you better for the amount you charge :) , she can take her time, measure precisely, pre-drill the holes, carefully drive each screw... get it wrong, back it out and send it in again correctly without destroying the pieces she's working on. She can make a mistake, take a few things back appart them put them together again without having to go back to the lumberyard for more wood. She can take eight times the time it would take you... and she will still end up with a sheetrocked box in the corner of her room. But she could do it at a pace she was comfy with, using tools she could master easily (and aren't normally deadly), and be able to easily correct mistakes. JD, you haven't made the mistakes she, I, or any DIY have made in decades. I'll bet you haven't had to take the same piece of wall you just put up right back down again seven times during the course of a project because you keep forgetting litle important things - you are way too experienced for that. Well, alot of us aren't like you and the tools and methods we use are better for us if they are different from the ones you use. Just because the tools and methods are different, doesn't mean we are trying to achieve different goals though. We are all trying to improve our finished product.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
You would think that one of the Nail only crew who lives nearby would be gentleman enough to go build it for her. Can't get more "Studly" than that. ;-)
Naah, they's go there and hold a nail gun to her head until she could reliably sink a sinker with two swats. For her own good, of course.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I would think that anyone capable of doing trim and cabinetry work wouldn't be in need of some chauvenist pig bargeing in to save her from a simple framing project.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
Good Point.
Probably doesn't need a lecture about how to bang nails when screws are easier, hold better and are what she wanted to use either.
She asked the question. I provided my opinion.
Worth as much as yours.
Gotta run for now. Got some drawer boxes to screw together before the caulk dries.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
So lemmesee if I understand the arguments here.
Nail only side: All framing connections are always under too much shear stress for all screws.
Screw only side: Enough screws will handle any shear stress.
Takeyerpik side: Any connection has certain shear and pullout requirements that may be met by some combination of some nails or some screws.
That about it?SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
What are you trying to do here? - inject sanity into this "discussion"?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Checking reading comprehension depth before I decide to dive in.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Marion (the original poster), stated she does trim and cabinetry. You, and others, are making it sound as if she is some helpless housewife, clueless to the methods of typical home improvement projects.
I may be wrong.....but I'm of the impression she has done her fair share of carpentry, and was/is asking a question that concerns an area outside of her expertise.
I don't think she will need to "two hand swat" at the nails. I don't envision this closet being built inside some dark, cramped cave either as some have suggested.
As for the "dangers of framing nailers"....all the more reason not to rent or use one before the individual is capable of setting nails by hand. (Which again, I am of the impression the OP is capable of)
This is a closet.....I doubt anyone is going to develop carpal tunnel syndrome in the process of building it.
As for needing an inspection for a closet.....I never said she needed one. I simply stated that were this part of a larger project being inspected, it would not pass if done with screws.
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
"This is a closet....."So there is no reason she can't use some decent screws
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"From what I can tell, it appears that more than a few of the "screws will do" guys, do not build for a living."Ahem,
..............................................never mind
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That would make you the acception that proves the rule?
J D Reynolds
Home Improvements
ROFLMAO... My Thoughts Exactly.
Okay, stop the presses! I just spent all day with my new Makita cordless impact driver. I am trimming out a large attic room in a '20s house.
Using 10 x 3-1/2" Grip Rite "deck" screws to sister 2x8s to old hard full 2x6s for joists - also tie in knee walls to full 2x4 rafters. Used 9 x 1-5/8" thru the 3/4" Advantech decking.
Didn't break a screw, or fail to sink anything.
Worked GREAT.
Forrest - so excited, I'll probably work on this job during the weekend
are you still with us...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Whether you use screws or nails you should pre drill first, it cuts doen on splits and makes it easier to drive.
I don't really care as long as after all the screwing or nailing is finished on my part I get to roll over and go to sleep undisturbed by the need to talk about it.