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Replies
Oh gaud! Here we go again!
I'll sit this one out.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I like 3" drywall screws for framing, especially with ACQ lumber. As I recall, you're a big fan too.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
"I like 3" drywall screws for framing, especially with ACQ lumber. As I recall, you're a big fan too."Don't you have to soak 'em in salt water for a week to improve their hardness? If some of the heads snap off later on, the rust will hold them in place.
The surface corrosion from the brine solution gives each screw a little more "bite" as well. Only here on BT are these little secrets of the profession revealed.
maybe we can get the jump on this and round up those other threads and add them to this one...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Those were my exact word (feelings) when I read the first post!
My words exactly--Oh, gawd... (oh, wait, I spell it with a "w" instead of a "u", so not exactly).
I know, why don't we stitch our houses together with needle and thread?
I just opened this! Tempting as it is, at 101 posts, I'm not going near it![email protected]
I'll bite - at the risk of being accused of having no sense of humour if you are joking, or trying to drive Piffin to drink.
This topic is without doubt the most discussed here. An advanced search would probably eat up your whole hard drive.
Antagonist!
I thought this thread was going to be about east coast framing tecniques...
There are two kinds of people who never amount to much:
those who cannot do what they are told, and those who can do nothing else.
surprised you when your methods were brought up to topic....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
no habla
There are two kinds of people who never amount to much:those who cannot do what they are told, and those who can do nothing else.
Framing walls on the floor before standing them up... pieces are cut and laid out... 3 minutes to shoot #12 spikes... or 20 minutes to drive all those screws, and don't forget to predrill near the ends. Need I say more?
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.net
See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Gun nails for pre-built walls. Screws for in-place stick-by-stick remodeling situations or where you think you might need to make adjustments for indecisive owners (or indecisive selves).Steve
jouneymanCarpenter T
Massive increase in labor times.. too often the wrong screws are used..extremely rare that correct method is used. My whole house is screwed together instead of nailed..
How about this?
View Image
Are looking for tips, methods, or suppliers?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Paul, What's going on there? You can't just post a picture like that and leave us hanging.
My guess is those straps and the other brackets are for wind and/or seismic reasons. The screws are likely Strong Tie brand SDS screws. They aren't your run of the mill drywall screws.
Here on the West Coast, mostly west of the cascades and the Sierras. seismic and wind potentials brought about the strapping of rafter pairs over ridge boards and a host of other financial benefits to Simpson Strongtie.But I've never screwed them down. Don't want to. Don't need to. Don't have to. Don't have time to. Getting to gimpy in the knees to.I am an Animal
That is an example picture of my rebuilding my garage.
View Image
Like all DIY projects it started small "I'll only have to replace these two rotted rafters" and ended up being "Lets add 12" to the wall height and replace ALL the roofing!" OI!
Since I wanted to minimize any design related aspects, I cut the new rafters exactly like the old ones were - I figured they were cut that way for a reason. D'OH! I should have extended them each past the ridge beam and cut them on the plane of the opposite rafter. Thats why that strap is there wrapping around each side in a spiral.
I added a ridge vent and more block vents at the sides. Since it was on 24" centers I didn't want there to be a soft spot near the top, so I added that 2x4 angled blocking in the center for support.
For fasteners, I used McFeely's #10 1.5" Round Washer Head with No Corrode galvanized finish, #10 x 3" ProMax Round Washer Head No Corrode galvanized finish, and #9 3.5" Phillips DeckMate Square Driv. Sheathing attached with 2" Senco exterior gun screws. My tools of choice for this were the Ryobi 18v impact driver and angled drill, and the Rigid 12v drill and angled impact driver. I think I dropped that Ryobi impact driver on the concrete - from the roof - dozens of times. Just replaced the bit if it got bent in the fall.
All inspected and approved by my local BI, though I had to get the head guy there to personally check it out and really look at what I was doing.
While screws can be much stronger than nails, it's not the main reason why I use them.
For me, it's all about the mistakes! How many times on a given project does a Professional have to completely disassemble something they are working on? Hopefully only once in a very long time! For me, who's figuring it out as I go, it's more a matter of "how many times will I have to pull all this apart because I forgot something"?
As an example - that ridge picture - I must have pulled the sheathing off there 8 different times... either correcting something, finishing something I forgot the first time, adding something the BI wanted, or adding another feature I didn't think of when I first got started. Just think of how shreaded those rafters would be if I was tearing out ring shank nails each time - let alone having to recut new radiant panels that were going for $20 a sheet when I did this.
Sure they take longer to drive, but the biggest time slice on my projects is not fastening - it's standing there looking at thing, figuring out sequence of installation, trying to imagine where everything will be and how it will function. Looking for a detail to add now that will enable something cool later. If a Pro did that on a project, they would be quickly smacked on the back of the head with a board and told to get back to work!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Edited 5/6/2008 12:50 pm by xxPaulCPxx
Thanks Paul, I was a bit confused. The sunlight on your ridge beam makes it look like a thin piece of steel in the photo. Once I got that everything makes sense.
I don't usually have to do things twice, but for some reason when I built my own house, I must have pulled 200 nails. The floor was littered with them. I think my wife, having only seen me frame during that project, thinks I do it on all my jobs. She is nice enough not to bring it up though.
Anybody use screws instead of nails for framing?
Yes, Homeowners because they think it's stronger. No professional would frame a house with screws. Don't even think about it.
Framer,
I'm sorry but screws are stronger! That has been proven many times including in this magazine.
If you own their book on roofing I think it's like page 91 they tested the strength of various means of fastening rafters to the top plate. (it's also in old copies of their magazine).
Lab test I think done by Forest Products Lab in Wisc..
They compared various nailing methods, various simpson connectors, and a couple of lag screws just jammed in like most builders would do..
Surprise! The strongest connection of all was a single lag screw jammed in (not even properly installed.
In the test the wood clearly failed while the screw was firmly in place on the top plate..
If it had been properly installed with a pilot hole and one for the shank My belief and experiance would indicate that most likely another 1000 pounds would have been required before the wood failed..
Just for information properly installed toenailed rafters failed at 208 pounds!
While that doesn't seem critical next time you see a tornado peel off a roof on the news imagine if that roof was attached by 2700 pounds at each joint rather than 208 pounds.. Once the roof is peeled off the walls fall down..
Just so you know I own 7 differant nail guns and only 4 impact wrenches.
I am fully prepared to conceed that screws massively increase the time required to build a home.. I wouldn't expect any professional to take such time.. I'm the only wacko I know who drilled pilot holes shank holes and counterbor holes for 10 of thousands of stainless steel hardened 1/2 diameter up to 12 inches long lag screws to build my house..
However I believe you could park a cement truck on my walls without failure! <grin>
Edited 5/6/2008 9:24 am ET by frenchy
I'm sorry but screws are stronger! That has been proven many times including in this magazine.
Frenchy,
Alright, they're stronger in every application? They are not at all necessary for framing. They are not needed for framing. A house will not stand up any longer using screws for framing.
What nutjob would frame a whole house using screws on every single mudsill, joists, shoe, stud, top plate, header, window sills, window jacks, king studs,liners, nailers, ceiling joists, rafters, collar ties, sub-fascia, sheathing...............?
I know, Homeowners.
Let's take a pole and see how many hoses are framed using nails compared to screws.
Also, if it was a better and stronger job, every single house would be framed with screws and not one nail.
Joe Carola
You could frame a house with loose-fitting pegs. Standard framing techniques place virtually all joints in compression, and the nails are really only serving as pegs, to prevent joints from sliding laterally, and to hold things together during construction.Framing with screws will, in most cases, make a given joint stronger in some axis, but will not significantly increase the strength of the overall framework in the vertical (downward) axis or relative to simple racking. Of course uplift is a different matter, but generally that should be handled with straps that are, again, basically just pegged.Maybe we should start a discussion about gluing framing.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
DanH
You made some clear cases for why screws are used.. In my case I choose to use lag screws over hiring an engineer to approve my unique method of building..
What wacko wants timbers on both the inside and the outside of SIP's? I mean the foam inside of panels isn't a really good nailing surface. <grin>
It would have been so easy to use timbers on just the inside like most timberframed houses are.. or loose the depth of timbers and infilled between bents with an insulational material.. like traditonal European timberframing has..
Check back in a few hundred years and see if my unique double timerframe is ever repilcated <grin>
Maybe we should start a discussion about gluing framing.
Better yet.........gluing and screwing framing and not using on nail.
Or.......
Start a pole.....How many houses are built using nails compared to houses built using screws.
Other wise this whole conversation is useless because I doubt houses will ever be built just using screws only. If they are in my life time, I would be very surprised.
As of now, homeowners will use screws framing a house or addition, never a professional would screw a whole house and not use nails.
Joe Carola
Edited 5/6/2008 12:46 pm ET by Framer
Houses aren't built using screws because it's not cost-effective. It takes more time and money to use screws, and that runs up the cost of the house without similarly increasing it's apparent value. Ie, nails are code minimum, so they get used.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Houses aren't built using screws because it's not cost-effective.
Houses are built using nails because that's all you need to build a house, not because it's not cost-effective.Joe Carola
That's what I said. Any time/money spent doing more than necessary to meet code is wasted, so far as a building contractor is concerned. Not cost-effective because you don't get back (with profit margin) the additional money you spend.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Not cost-effective because you don't get back (with profit margin) the additional money you spend.
It has nothing to do with that. Even if it was cost effective and you did get your money back and increase your profit, your getting money back for something that wasn't necessary to begin with and people are stupid enough to pay for something that's unnecessary.
It's like saying that you should use 3/4" T&G glued and screwed on walls and rafters and you can make a profit on that because you did something that wasn't necessary and made no sense to do and someone was stupid enough to pay for it.
You might as well nail floor joists, wall studs, ceiling joists, rafters every 6" and if someone is stupid enough to pay for that and you make a good profit fine. It's still something that's totally unnecessary and a waste of time like this thread is about using screws for framing a house.
Joe Carola
One word: McMansion.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
OK, two words. If simply doing the minimum was all that SHOULD be done in all cases then we'd just have houses with code-minimum plastic trim, code-minimum vinyl flooring, single-basin sinks, etc. But (some) folks are willing to pay for nice wood trim, plush carpets, fancier kitchens, et al. Because folks are willing to pay for these, (some) builders build them. (And some don't, since there's still a market for low-cost homes.)Likewise you could just build 2000 square foot homes, since 90% of home buyers don't NEED anything larger. But people want larger homes, so they get built.For most builders, at least, it's not an ethical issue. Certainly there's more satisfaction in building a fancy house, but satisfaction doesn't pay the bills. Rather builders build what they think will produce the best profit margin within the limits of their resources.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
OK, two words. If simply doing the minimum was all that SHOULD be done in all cases then we'd just have houses with code-minimum plastic trim, code-minimum vinyl flooring, single-basin sinks, etc. But (some) folks are willing to pay for nice wood trim, plush carpets, fancier kitchens, et al. Because folks are willing to pay for these, (some) builders build them. (And some don't, since there's still a market for low-cost homes.)
Dan,
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about any of what you said above. I'm not talking about buying a 100.00 faucet compared to a 1000.00 faucet or a 10k kitchen compared to a 200k kitchen.
I'm talking about framing which is the HOUSE that holds everything up. You don't need to frame a house using unnecessary lumber and screws like I said in post #37.
So, what you're saying is, framing 16" centers compared to 6" centers. Using 3/4" T&G glued and screwed on walls and roofs compared to 1/2" on walls and 5/8" on a roof, is the same thing as a 100.00 faucet compared to a 1000.00 faucet, or a 10k kitchen compared to a 200k kitchen is the same thing?
It's not the same thing. Using all that extra lumber and screws isn't worth it and totally unnecessary and means nothing. The faucet and kitchen example does mean something because your getting a better product. Is it necessary, maybe not to someone who doesn't have the money, is it worth more money, yes it is. The framing isn't worth a dime more to use all that extra screws and lumber for no reason.
It';s not just building to minimum standards either. It's just building what's needed to build a house that is structurally sound. Why add more to a house if it's not necessary? If houses were falling down after 5 years, then you can say that there's something wrong. Houses are still standing after 100-200 years to your code-minimum standards.Joe Carola
And of those failing after 100 or 200 years, I've never seen it to be the fasteners that are failing....except for maybe a deck ledger lag-screwed to a rim joist that pulls out when overloaded.I am an Animal
You don't NEED a thousand dollar faucet. They wouldn't be made if people didn't buy them.People (with very few exceptions) won't pay extra for glued/screwed framing, so it doesn't happen. Come up with a fancy ad campaign and maybe people WOULD want glued/screwed framing. Then builders would glue/screw.It's a simple matter of cost vs payback -- cost-effectiveness.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
And re "structurally sound", a house with, say, joists on 12" vs code-minimum 16" centers, 3/4" vs 1/2" sheathing, et al, will be quieter, have less bounce to the flooring, and overall "feel" more solid. Using 12" vs 16" stud centers will produce flatter walls with less tendency to bow between studs. Not overkill at all -- for the customer who's willing to pay for those attributes.You're somehow hung up on "cost-effectiveness", but ultimately that where the game is -- that's what determines how much money you make off a house. Ignore it at your peril.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I believe that I will back up joe in this arguement. To me if you use screws when nails work, why are you useing screws?
I don't remember too many screws in those 100-200 yr. old houses!
That isn't the point. The point is that builders build what people will buy (or else they get out of the business). Even if screwing were in many ways superior there would be no market because it's an invisible feature.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
You're somehow hung up on "cost-effectiveness", but ultimately that where the game is -- that's what determines how much money you make off a house. Ignore it at your peril.
Dan,
I'm not hung up on anything.I could care less what a builder sells a house for. I'm framing it according to Architectural plans that detail the size and spacing of lumber that's designed to build a house. Call it code-minimum or whatever you want, the houses are designed to stay up and that's it.
You're still not getting it. I'll say it again, you do not need to screw off a house and don't need to nail joists 6" centers or use 3-1/2" x 9-1/2" lvl's 12" centers for joists or 6x6's 8" centers for walls to build a house. Even if a bullsh!tting builder sold a customer that house with all that garbage in it, you don't need it. Good for him because he made a big profit selling BS like a car salesman.Joe Carola
So you're opposed to building any house larger than 2000 sf, using anything other than T-1-11 siding, using anything better than paint grade trim? Not necessary, so don't do it?
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
You my friend are missing the point. No one said that here.
Are screws necessary, no, not in frameing a house. Are screws better, yes, in some circumstances. Not in frameing though. Unneccesary and expense for anyone doing so.
Does that make joe and Me a hack, I don't believe so.
I have framed many multimillion dollar houses with the only screws, being on the subfloor to guarentee no squeaks. That I believe were unnecessary because we use ring shank 8d.
So you're opposed to building any house larger than 2000 sf, using anything other than T-1-11 siding, using anything better than paint grade trim? Not necessary, so don't do it?
I don't know what else to say other than you obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.Joe Carola
I'm with you on this. Improving the connections between materials only makes sense if the connections are a problem, or fail before the material itself.
The reason there are 5 bolts holding on my car's wheels are because experience and engineering have shown that's the optimum number. If I went and welded on 5 more it would in no way make my car safer, perform better or last longer.
This is true of pretty much everything we use. The thickness of the material in our clothes, the size of our cutlery, the welds on a bicycle frame...
> Improving the connections between materials only makes sense if the connections are a problem, or fail before the material itself.
Take a good look at earthquake and hurricane damage. Do you see mostly broken wood with the ends still nailed to other broken pieces, or is it mostly the nails that gave way and pulled out? That's a reasonable starting point for deciding what to improve, deciding where the next dollar or the next man-minute of work will do the most good. When we get the engineering perfect, there'll be an equal mix of failed connections and failed materials. ;-)
That being said, there are places where screws are the right choice, provided you use the right kind of screws. There are a lot more places where nails are the right choice. Adding glue can be a good thing, provided you have enough surface area for it.
-- J.S.
I know what you're talking about but you're not listening to me. You said if screws were better everyone would use them. I simply pointed out that it doesn't matter if they're better or not -- what matters is whether they help sell the house.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I know what you're talking about but you're not listening to me. You said if screws were better everyone would use them. I simply pointed out that it doesn't matter if they're better or not -- what matters is whether they help sell the house.
Alright since your main purpose is the sale of the house and selling a client BS, why not advertise screwing the windows, lag-bolt the doors, screw down roof shingle, screw in the siding, screw in the trim also if it helps sell the house.
Same nonsense garbage about screwing the framing.
Joe Carola
Because there's no money in it. Lacking a screw lobby to build up an image you can't sell a house with screws for any more than a house built with nails.(Oh, and a lot of people do screw the trim.)
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
look out trim guys, now he's talking about ya!!!
I've worked on a multimillion dollar house where the HOers wanted the best house their rich fathers money would buy, they were not interested in saving anything to get this house.
They got a geo thermo heating system that would make most people envious, a movie theater that probably cost in the neighborhood of 1/2 a mill. Kitchen cabs that probably came close to the movie theater, granite counter tops, crown and three piece base in the garage, ..........
But you know what, there was never a mention of screwing the frame together to get a better built house. THAT'S BECAUSE SCREWING IT TOGETHER DOES NOT MAKE IT A BETTER BUILT HOUSE! Money has nothing to do with it.
Doug
I love your term "HOers"--just in case you didn't speak Ebonics and didn't get "HO". Work for any nappy headed homeowners? (Please don't anybody take that wrong--depending on the wind and hunidity, I'm pretty nappy headed myself. And some of my best friends....)
>But you know what, there was never a mention of screwing the frame together to get a better built house. <
probably more due to the fact they've no clue about any of the subtance (structures/mechanicals) of a house but know all about the (sometimes green) shiny beads and trinkets.
nail it if you can!
DougU
except those who do really know such things Forest products labratories and this magazine have published data that says you are wrong!
a 30 foot house with 24 properly toenailed rafters will require 4,992 foot pounds to lift off the roof..
the same house with improperly installed lag screws will require 66792 foot pounds to lift off the roof..
Lag screws are 13 times stronger than properly toe nailed rafters!
IF you are in an area where roofs never come off houses then you're right.. doesn't matter..
(Oh, and a lot of people do screw the trim.)
Those pineapples must be related to the pineapples who screw the framing.
Happy Screwing!!Joe Carola
I've got the marketing strategy--some Manly Man like Ahnold or Gene Hackman or Jack Nicholson or David Spade (is that his name?) saying, "Why not screw up your next home? Buy Piffen Brand Framing Screws. They come in colors! Change orders, remodeling? No problem with our new Framing Screws! Completetly reversable! Screw up your house this week, take it down and take it with you when you are laid off and have to move to Alabama next week." Something like that.
Yeah, and it would work IF you had enough money to fund the campaign. Think of the Kohler and Price-Pfister ads that sell $1000 faucets.One real reason why it doesn't happen, though, is that there is very little brand identification for Piffin screws vs, say, BossHog screws or even Danno screws. So Piffin would be advertising for his competitors.(But the main reason, of course, is that it would just take to much effin money to hire Ahnold and air the ads.)But let me make the point again that I never said that, in general, framing SHOULD be done with screws. In general I believe that it would produce a stronger structure, but the additional strength is unnecessary or can (for necessary cases like uplift) be achieved more simply/cheaply with other techniques like hurricane strapping.But the assertion was made that if screws produced a better structure they would be used all the time, and the fact that they aren't proves they aren't superior. That argument is bogus, as I have illustrated several times.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
When i lived and worked in NJ i worked on many homes built around the Revolutionary war time frame, While the square cut nails were still there the drywall screws they used had long since rusted away;}
Building on 12" centers would provide more paths for heat to escape from the building--more transmission through the framing members, less insulation.
It remind me of guys that nail on trim with 16 penny nails--or seem to think that if one 8 penny nail will hold something well, then a half dozen 16 penny nails will be that much better!
How come you guys use common nails all the time? Or hae you started using ardox (twisted-spiral) nails?
Have a good day
Cliffy
I use twisted spiral nails on the subfloor framing.
We've got some spiral nails coming out for the next time we sheathe the floor. They are old stock from the nail supplier and about $20/box cheaper than the rings if I remember correctly.
I've seen those screw shanks walk out more often than ring shanks.
You mentioned code. Here in CT and MA where I work I have had to remove screws and replace them with nails because I could not satisfy a building inspector that the screws were actually stronger then the screws. Also most of simpson strong tie connectors specify nails only. And have shear data only for nails. And on those that spec screws it is only tested using simpson's screws. To satisfy building inspectors you need shear data for screws being used.
MFournier,,
Too bad you don't own a copy of the UBC as well as the Forest products book.. the justification is in there. I satisfied my building inspector..
I needed the shear data for the specific screw used (including brand) but for nails I just needed to use the correct size. Much easier to just use the nails.Also in many cases screws will snap before a Nail of the same diameter does and a screw will be harder to pull out but most loads in framing are not applied in that direction.That said there are times I use lag screws or Deck Screws in framing but in most framing they are not any stronger in the load direction then nails. thing is it does not matter if if a header nailed with 16d nails is not as strong as one glued and screwed as long as the header is stronger then the load that will be applied to it. No need to make something stronger then it needs to be and if a nail meets or exceeds the needed load then a nail is fine. I do not see house nailed properly failing.As for a stronger house well my 250 year old house has no nails in it's frame all pegged together. The frame is all Oak and chestnut and all the studs are mortised and pegged the rafters are pegged. the only nails are to hold sheathing boards, trim and flooring. and those hand made nails hold very well even after 250 years of storms, floods and old stone foundation shifting. Houses like mine (on cape cod and nantucket (not my own house) have survived hurricanes. Others were not so lucky but the forces of nature can take down just about any wood framed structure and screws instead of nails are not going to save your house if it gets a direct hit by a strong tornado or big hurricane. I think the weakest link is not what fastener you use but the junky KD spruce framing lumber so commonly used.It does not matter what you fasten it with the wood fails before the fasteners do. I do not expect us to go back to framing with oak studs and chestnut beams (especially since the American chestnut is for the most part history except for a few surviving trees)
But wIth more and more lumber coming from fast growth trees that do not have the strength of old growth lumber we need to look at engineered lumber more and more. That would do more to improve the strength of house framing then to start screwing everything. As for hurricane tornado and earthquake areas code already is in place for that.
Like I said, this is one reason that screws are rarely speced in architectural/engineering orders -- too much paperwork on the part of the archie/engineer to clear them with AHJ. Says nothing about which is better but talks volumes about "inertia".
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Joe,
As I said most houses are nailed.. no one disputes that.. However there are certain places where nails are typically used where screws or simpson straps should be used.
I think it's an absolute sin to nail the roof rafters of any house in potential tornado or hurricane areas.. Plus areas with known high wind potential.. Either use the big Simpson straps or a single lag bolt.. Certain seismic areas as well will benfit from careful placement of screws..
The rest if it? Let people do whatever they want as long as it meets the minimum..
frnchy... don't talk like a doofus...
<<<<I think it's an absolute sin to nail the roof rafters of any house in potential tornado or hurricane areas.. Plus areas with known high wind potential.. Either use the big Simpson straps or a single lag bolt.. Certain seismic areas as well will benfit from careful placement of screws.. >>>
anyone who builds in a hurricane area has to comply with the wind codes for that area
here it's 110 MPH... 3 miles closer to Block Island Sound , it's 120 mph
none of thse requirements include screws
AND all requirements have to be verifiable by the Building Inspectors... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Smith
You'd sure think so wouldn't you?
Well I know for a fact it's not required in my community! Yes we've had tornados here, I've lost a couple of trees from one in my yard . My neighbor lost the roof of his house. In spite of that when a new roof was put on it was toenailed into place..
Please remember I used to visit up to 50+ jobsites a week and I saw strapping used rarely!
Next time I see a house in the rafter stage I'll take some pictures for your benefit..
Framer,
No Joe I didn't use screws for everything.. I was tempted just for the sake of saying I did but reason prevailed and I nailed on the trim etc..
My house is massively differant than any house has been built.. It's built with all hardwood (it was cheaper) double Timberframed (timbers inside and outside with SIP's in between) (yeh! 16 to 17 inch thick walls)
Some pieces required screws.. For example the bow in front wouldn't stay together with nails. In fact screws strained to hold the black walnut boards in place after I steam bent them. (yes black walnut.. the whole outside is black walnut!{told you I was differant,<grin>})
I absolutely agree with you that screws are not needed.. most houses for centuries have gone together well with nails..
The only way I could build my house the way I wanted to required screws.. . You don't need to build a house that way. Like I said most houses for a century or more are nailed together..
We all tolerate differances red hair, blue eyes, tan pants or brown truck .. differances make the world go around.. screws are simply a differant way.. not a threat to you.
Check out some pictures of my place at 85891.1 & 94941.1.
It is bad logic to say that if screws were stronger, then all houses would be framed with screws, and not nails.
Screws are stronger. Nails are strong enough, and that is what the code was written around. Nails being far faster, particularly if you have nail guns, it makes no sense to use screws in most situations.
Remodel work where there are tight quarters, or you don't want to pop the nails in the existing drywall, screws make more sense.
Pre-panelized things, like concrete forms, that will be flown into place with a crane, screws make more sense. If you are going to use the same forms, for the basements of twenty tract homes, screws make even more sense.
And, now that I have "trigger finger" in most of the fingers of my right hand, I drive lots of screws. A hammer used to be faster, but not any more.
It is bad logic to say that if screws were stronger, then all houses would be framed with screws, and not nails.
Screws are stronger.
Alright, I'll make it simple for everyone. A house built using screws only does not produce a stronger built house. Those of you who think that a house that is built using all screws and using nails is code-minimum, how come you're not screwing the house?
If you think you can build a stronger house using all screws, how can you guys live with yourselves and not screw the house. I can live with myself because I know I'm building a strong house and have always built a strong house. Screwing a house has never been mentioned to me in 24 years of framing. I've only heard of Diy'ers doing this. I've changed my framing over the past 24 years according to today's standards that are on every Architectural drawing I get.
The day I see a set of plans that call for screwing and no more nailing, that's when I'll screw. Until then, screwing a house is useless and unnecessary and a waste of time.
Remodel work where there are tight quarters, or you don't want to pop the nails in the existing drywall, screws make more sense.
Agree, 100% with that scenario. I do a ton of remodeling, but that's not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking new work.Joe Carola
"A house built using screws only does not produce a stronger built house."I would wager that a house built with good quality screws in the framing would hang together better in, say, a tornado.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Well wager away, don't believe it or they would already be required.
Man, you guy's are riding this one till the wheels come off.
Can't we argue about say Shellac?
or whether we should toe nail the framing?
So we should shellac the drywall screws?
Bobby Dylan!
Have a good day
CLiffy
"or whether we should toe nail the framing?"Don't you mean, shouldn't we toenail the framming ?;o)
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
frammer 52
According to this magazine screws do hold together better.
Buy Fine Home building's book on roofing., Framing roofs. Best of fine Home building. Library of Congress # ISBN1-56158-147-X page 126
StainleyH Niu professor of department of civil engineering of the university of Missouri wrote the article. Professor henry Liu supervised the reaseach for full details see the Forest Products Journal July/August 1991
Tests done at wire rope corp of America (Simspon Connector factory)
Rafters toe nailed according to code required 208 foot pounds of effort to remove from the top plate. and 3/8ths inch lags improperly installed (just jammed in) took 2,783 foot pounds to fail.. when they did fail the wood failed not the fasterner..
Let's make this simple share we? a 30 foot house with 24 toe nailed rafters would require 4,992 foot pounds to lift off the roof.
A house with lagscrews would require 66,792 foot pounds to come off.. That's over 13 times stronger!
Simpson connectors add to the connection starting with the H4 at 339 more pounds and going up thru the H6 which adds 2942 pounds. Since no attempt was made to properly install the lag screws it's pure speculation on my part but a sizeable increase if the lag screw was properly installed could be expected..
Mind you that was a single lag screw, not duplicated which I believe would be required..
Just for information my rafters are connected to the top plate both thru traditonal timber framing and through three 1/2 by 12 hardened stainless steel lag bolts into solid white oak timbers.. since western white woods commonly used for framing aren't nearly as strong as 9"x6" white oak timbers fit into 12"x6" timbers I feel safe to say that my failure rate would exceed 15, 000 pounds per connection that's somewhat north of 180,000 pounds required to lift off my roof..
Given the lifting effect of a 17/12 pitch roof I feel secure in stating that my roof is as tornado proof as there is.
180,000+ pounds versis 4,992 pounds.
you'd loose your bet!
I don't know about Joe, but around here most house are useing hurricane clips for tyeing rafters or trusses to top plate. duh!
That means that your research is moot. sorry frenchy!
Frammer52
Hurricane clips as you call them start around an improvement of 289 pounds. you need to get pretty elaborate to even equal what a single improperly installed lag bolt can achieve..
The orginal arguement that nails were superior to screws doesn't carry water..
Those test figures refer to one type of joint and one kind of screw tested with force applied in one direction.To take that out of context and then say that all screws are stronger than nails is idiotic.You siad earlier that the book from Taunton said that screws were stronger, yet you fail to prove it. The test you cite shows that the JOINT made by that particular screw is stronger in the uplift stress.
But the cat is that most joints in residential framing are subjected to shear stress, where screws are far weaker unless you go to 3/8" lags, but by time you chew up that much wood for the steel placement, you are damaging the stud and plate so you then weaken the JOINT itself.For most joints in framing, nails are the better choice.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You know, you're making assertion that you've never proved. In fact, of all the data posted here over the years on screws vs nails I can't recall one single test that showed nails to be superior in any sort of joint.IIRC someone here did some decently designed homebrew tests on screws in shear about two years back and found them to be significantly superior to nails.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
That was CRX paul who did tests as screwy as this thread. He is the one whop posted the photo of the wrap with screws and no nails here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Please Piffin it's not nice to call some one a "Whop"! He is the one whop posted the photo of the wrap with screws and no nails here.
typo "he is the one who..." not whop
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
DanH
that was xxPaulCPxx who performed that test.
And you said you were going to "sit this one out".....;-)
I can only tolerate idiotic presentations just so long
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, I'm more into bolts.The seismic codes out here require, in most cases, an engineered prescribed placement of Simpson SSTB anchor bolts onto which lengths of all-thread are joined with coupler nuts; the all-thread is carried through the bottom plate through an HDU hold down, which is cinched with a coupler nut(the HDU being attached to a doubled stud with 1/4" X 3" SDS screws).Then the assembly is continued with all-thread and a coupler nut through the top plate where it is cinched with a hex nut against a heavy square washer (If there is a second story, the assembly is continued).Now after all this, it wouldn't take much additional effort to run the all thread into a counterbore above the rafter birds mouth and suck the whole structure together.Beats the hell out of screws and lags.BTW, the last house I built had 40 of these hold down assemblies! All 7/8" steel. If I'd thought of it I would have put them through the rafters just so I could be one up on Mr. Frampiers.:-)I am an Animal
Any good salesman knows how to take one set of facts, and then extrapolate them to a totally different scenario, and use that like a bludgeon to make his point. This is a case in point.
Whether screws (or screwed joints) are stronger than nails (or nailed joints) does not, in itself, have anything to do with whether or not a house that is screwed together is stronger than one nailed.
A house frame is a complex system of joints, panels, struts, load bearing members, all acting in different ways under different loads. Extrapolating from an isolated joint example does not work.
Piffin,
So according to your statement until we go to a 3/8ths lag bolt no screw can provide greater shear resistance than a nail?
Hey Frenchy,You've proved over and over again (and over and over) that lag screws are stronger than toe nails. Big surprise!Have you ever looked at the amount of steel in a lag screw? Or compared the time it takes to install three nails vs. a lag screw?Still, you haven't proved that using lags is a better way to construct a home. For instance, why didn't you build TRIPLE timber frame? That would theoretically be 50% stronger than a mere double timber frame, no?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon.
Surprise, I agree with you! I never have claimed otherwise and have constantly wrote about the requirements to properly install screws.
Far from jamming a screw in with a driver is required to maximise it's strength. A pilot hole and a shank hole is required. Depending on application a counterbore may also be required..
As to triple timberframe, I wasn't going for strength.. While I got massively more stength than any normal home what I wanted to achieve was a certain look. I believe I've achieved that. The added strength is one of those isn't that nice things.. I really don't plan on parking semi's on my walls anyway. <grin>
Frenchy where did you come up with those #'s?
A nail as riversong showed in one of his posts, show a shere strength of 1000lbs. per nail. Start multiplying and you have more strength.
Personally I have seen in person only one tornado in person and I had to be in Kansas to see it.
Just like you didn't build for strength you will find that nailed houses except in extreem situations are sufficent.
Frammer 52
Those numbers came from the article I quoted, what 5 times? OK again, Forest products Journal july/august1991 as published in Tauton Press's book Best of Fine Homebuilding Framing Roofs Page 126 thru 129, chart on page 129. There are also countless graphs and charts to choose from regarding the rentention cabability of screws. The test was done to pier review standards. and varified by other professors.
However I have a simple test for you to use to confirm the data yourself.. Take a ordinary 3 inch long #12 screw and run it 4/5th of the way into any piece of wood. Then take a 16 penny nail 3 inches long and do the same right next to it. Grab your claw hammer and try to pull them out.
When you've pulled out the nail with your claw hammer see how much more force is required to pull out the screw.
Go ahead use a crow bar............
As for tornados well since I live inthe part of the nation where tornados are frequent all I've needed to do is look out my front window to see the one tearing out my trees and smashing my neighbors roof..
I've seen plenty of tornados in my lifetime, enough so they hold no particular terror to me nor are they seen as this inevitable force of destruction.
However it's not merely tornado's which pose a risk and kill people, it's Hurricanes, high wind locations, and earthquakes. Where superior fastening strength can make the differance..
As I repeatedly say to everyone willing to listen screws are superior But they require massively more effort to install.. in many cases that effort is unjustified. Nails are OK.. Finally screws as installed in the test do not achieve anywhere near their maximum strength. To do so a pilot hole is required as well as a shank hole plus most likely a counter bore.
Had the test done so I feel that an additional 1000 pounds of force would have been required to remove the top plate..
Frenchy,
I remember reading the FHB article that showed the testing done you are talking about. It seems though that in those very high wind areas or tornado country that the requirements go beyond attaching the rafter/truss to the topplate.
A fair amount of the hardware is designed to tie the truss/rafter to the topplate, and the stud below in the wall ie http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/LTS-MTS-HTS.asp
A friend of mine in Long Island was describing to me the hardware that is now required, it really is quite amazing.
Reason I bring that up is because the issue of which is better, really can't be answered because there are factors that have to be considered and the issue just can't be boiled down.
Timuler
I dislike the word better. Too vague.
Better how?
To what standard?
Nails are faster! They are cheaper!
If that is your standard then nails it is..
If other considerations enter in, well then we have to put all sorts of conditions on things..
Jamming a screw into some wood isn't better,, not when it can be installed properly and gain strength over just jamming it in..
A proper pilot hole and shank hole are required and most likely a counterbore hole as well..
Suddenly if we are speaking of cost screws lose big time. If we are speaking about the optimum way to join two pieces of wood together we must acknowledge that screws are superior to nails.. however glue would add strength to that as would proper timberframing techniques.
But all of those together won't work either!
It get's extremely complex!
I agree with you on the word better. That's what I was saying in my post, the issue really can't be boiled down.
If you add up all the pros and all the cons, nails will win in nearly every case.
So I don't understand why this thread has gone on so long.
Timuhler,
I do it to shake up The troops.. If I could get as much interest in a hand nailing versis nailing gun but I suspect that ship has long since sailed..
When I first started posting here it was even more intence than this is.
Once done with this I'll respond about shellac again.. always good for 100+ posts.
If I could get as much interest in a hand nailing versis nailing gun
That comparison is just as insane as comparing nailing a house vs screwing a house because you have people saying that hand nailing a house is stronger than gun nailing a house.
Joe Carola
frenchy, you are missing my point completely. Simpson has designed the clips to be used in framing roofs. Surprise surprise, the are designed to be nailed. I believe that clips installed with nails are sufficient in strength to withstand forces of wind.
What I was questioning was the statement that it only required 289 lbs of force to remove.
A properly nailed house with connectors are sufficient to build houses. It is ridiculous to say that screws are needed.
Frammer 52
I understand your point but that was not the way the question was posed by the OP..
To answer you more completely, 289 pound Increase over the 208 pounds that toe nailing provides.. The maximum gain using a Simpson H7 connector over toe nailing is 2518.. That requires using 14 nails.
To maximise full strength you would also need to use a H6 strap to hold the top plate in place which requires 16 more nails..
I defy you to point out anyplace where I have said screws are needed. I have always said that screws provide added strength over nails.
Do you believe in free choice?
If I can nail something together but choose to screw it together have I broken any laws?
of course you are free to use whatever you want.
But again is the expense worth it?
Not in my opinion or the opinion of arch. or engen. who design the houses most of us live in. Therefore making this an unnecessary expense.
Frenchy,When you start comparing Simpson hardware to the FHB test results, I don't think you're comparing apples to oranges.In the FHB test, the lags were stressed to failure. No safety factor was applied, they're just saying that at 4,992 lbs. the lag broke.The Simpson hardware probably has a pretty healthy safety factor, so you can't make a clear comparison.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Are we speaking of the same test? On page 126 they show a picture of the rafter itself failing. Thus reinforcing my statement that just jamming a screw into wood weakens the wood . Properly installed a screw needs a pilot hole and a shank hole. drilled to the proper depth..
Compared to the nails which were actually predrilled with a 5/32 dia. hole.
They also show the Simpson connector in failure as well same page picture right next to the lag screw falure. They tested at least 15 connections pulling at each untill they failed and averaging.
I don't have the FH book on roofing, so I have not read the test.
I mistakenly assumed that the figures you were quoting for the hurricane ties were from the Simpson load tables. I didn't realize that they performed destructive testing with the Simpson hardware as well.
I'm surprised that the H4 only added 131 lbs. to the assembly. The Load Tables on the Simpson site show the H4 as being much stronger than that. I would have thought the destructive testing would have been somewhere around 800-1,000 lbs. for failure.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
547 pounds total, less the 208 pounds is 339 pounds greater than toe nailing.. according to the chart. However you must remember that they sort of cheated to get the toe nails numbers so high.. in order to keep from splitting the wood, something that's easy to do. They actaully predrilled holes in the wood of 5/32 .
Reality is that one or two splits aren't uncommon in toenailing and that would reduce the holding power by a significant amount..
In my opinion I would say that 208 pounds is probably something like 50 pounds high. That makes an H4 even stronger relatively..
All that aside I was reading another book more than a decade ago that gave even worse numbers. I can't remember exact details but it was what started me looking for alternatives to nailing..
All that aside I was reading another book more than a decade ago that gave even worse numbers. I can't remember exact details but it was what started me looking for alternatives to nailing..
and that's the biggest flaw in most of your arguments, you read something, sometime, but you can't begin to source it or provide a link for much of anything about the study you're beating to death.
You're talking about lag screws, most of these guys are talking about #8 3" screws at best. So as buck says, some CRX fan, you're self, and Mike Holmes likes to screw frames together... where's the creditability?
This argument is a freakin joke. What kind of screws? In what type of framing? Where are they located? What type of load are they under? Sure in some instances they may perform better but not all and are mostly overkill even when they are stronger.
I really don't see why this dicussion even matters, if some j/a wants to frame their home with screws who cares? They're an idiot in my opinion and innovative in their own mind.
CAGIV
You have extremely poor reading skills. Please go back and find someplace where I said you must use screws? In fact you will find many posts where I confirm that installing screws was massively more time consuming and that nails were the norm or commonly used..
Second I have listed many many many times the source for the information I used to confirm that screws are stronger than nails.. that source is nothing less than this Magazines book The Best of Fine Home building Framing Roofs Page 126 through 129. Its done in a laboratory and repeated at least 15 times per joint to eliminate variables.. it's withstood peer review and
How many times have I repeated that same thing? 6,&7? I should go back and check..
OK it was only six although previous debates on this subject probably add another 20+ to those tally's
Edited 5/8/2008 6:18 pm ET by frenchy
Several times you mentioned drilling a pilot hole and a “shank” hole.<!----><!----><!---->
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A pilot hole is the most common pre-drilling I do. When I drill a pilot hole, I use a bit the same size as the screw’s core, which is the diameter of the screw’s shank (or length of the screw minus the thread). That way, instead of splitting the lumber, the screw carves into it.<!----><!---->
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A countersink is the second most common pre-drilling I do. The countersink ensures that the screw’s head will sit flush in the lumber without crushing it.<!----><!---->
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What, though, is a “shank” hole? Are you referring to a properly sized pilot hole? Or, are you referring to another hole drilled specifically for certain screws (such as wood screws and lag screws) that have no thread for the first part of their shank? Please explain.<!----><!---->
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I’m guessing that if it’s common practice to pre-drill a pilot hole the diameter of the screw’s core, than if you wanted to pre-drill a hole for the screw’s shank (shank without threads), you would drill a hole relatively close to the size of the actual shank. Perhaps I would even drill the hole just ever so slightly smaller. That way, while the screw wouldn’t split the lumber, it would squeeze it’s way into it – like a nice and tight mortise-and-tenon.<!----><!---->-T
Jouneyman CarpenterT
You've pretty much got it altough I've read conflicting advice regarding the exact size of the pilot hole. I do pretty much as you do with regard the size of the pilot hole although there are several sources who insist there is an exact formula for pilot hole size based on a complex formula involving wood type and drill diameter.. Old guys who are aware of this say to just use one drill size smaller as your pilot hole than the core of the threaded portion.
As for the shank size that is the portion of the screw which has no threads on it..
In addition a counterbore might be required..
In addition I also use a thread lubricant. Believe it or not there is some real strength gains when a thread lubricant is used..(Fine Wood Workin) . Soap and wax don't perform as well a a proper thread lubricant design for exactly that job..
Anybody use screws instead of nails for framing? And I’m not talking about a subfloor, I’m talking about 2x’s.
The answer is no! No sane person would screw framing a house together. Is that your question? What really is your question? Is this something that you want to do on the next house or addition you frame. Is that why you're asking this question?<!----><!----><!---->
Joe Carola
I am asking this question because a few years ago when I said I was using nails to frame a (so called) garage; Jerald Hayes told me ‘I should be using screws.’ That made me wonder ever so often: “Do some guys really frame with screws?”
"Well you are really giving this client of yours a gift. The nails (and you really should be using screws) while only an incidental cost are still cutting into that under-loaded Billing Rate of yours. Next job use the billing rate you get from the PILAO worksheet times the number of hours you estimate the job will take.You might also want to pick up Ellen Rohrs book How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love for a a lesson on just what to charge for your services and/or read David Gerstels Running a Successful Construction Company starting on page 166 for more on what and how to charge.Here's a link on this site for you too one of my posts regarding Logically Thinking About Markup."
That is why I am asking this question.<!----><!----><!---->-T
I am asking this question because a few years ago when I said I was using nails to frame a (so called) garage; Jerald Hayes told me ‘I should be using screws.’ That made me wonder ever so often: “Do some guys really frame with screws?”
I can't answer for Jerrald, but I doubt that he frames a whole house or addition using only screws. If he does he 's one of the few in this Country that does and more power to him.
Think of the millions of houses and additions that are framed with nails and every single house and addition designed by Architects and Engineers using nails. Doesn't that tell you something!!!
Joe Carola
Actually, quite a few buildings designed by architects and engineers are framed with screws.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Actually, quite a few buildings designed by architects and engineers are framed with screws.
Buildings maybe, but never a house or addition that I've seen in all my years of framing.
They day I see a house or addition that specs all screws instead of nails is the day I hit 6'.
Joe Carola
You mean to say there's never been a house built with steel studs?
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
You mean to say there's never been a house built with steel studs?
Wow Dan, you're pretty funny. You know I'm talking about wood, and you know that I'm right.
Joe Carola
Funny, you expect me to read your mind, but you refuse to listen when others try to explain (again) what they said clearly several times.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Funny, you expect me to read your mind, but you refuse to listen when others try to explain (again) what they said clearly several times.
Dan,
Are you feeling alright? You know I'm talking about wood and never once mentioned metal studs. I could care less about metal studs and what others are saying about screwing houses together.
Your little trick question was cute though. You still know I'm right and there are no house or additions designed with screws.
Just to let you know, I'm talking about wood.
Joe Carola
framer,
So nails are always superior to screws?
How come you screw the sill plates down rather than nail them?
Ooops?
Ok why is door hardware installed with screws instead of nails?
Common to see towel racks nailed in place?
How come you screw the sill plates down rather than nail them?
Frenchy,
Now you are showing your ignorance because I never said that I screw sill plates down. Where did you get that insane idea from?
Joe Carola
Ok why is door hardware installed with screws instead of nails?
Common to see towel racks nailed in place?
Now who's dancing like a Politician. I've been talking about framing which is what this thread is about, comprehend? Screws have there place. Comparing towel racks and door hardware to framing has nothing to do with this thread.
Joe Carola
framer
Was it you that insited screws wouldn't stand up to repeated loading and unloading? I can't think of anything that gives a better example..
Was it you that insited screws wouldn't stand up to repeated loading and unloading?
No, it must of been the nutjob that screws down sills that you said I do, which I never said or do.
Joe Carola
"You mean to say there's never been a house built with steel studs?"
But this kind of proves our point- The screwed connections in metal stud framing are of negligible structural value, right?
The main shear and moment resisting aspects of the metal framed buildings I worked on were welded and bolted wide flange moment frames, and the studs were more or less infill. Could have been duct tape holding them, really...;)
(By the way, I haven't blown off your request for stats. But the charts I have only show shear values for members and panels nailed together- for some reason engineering charts don't give shear values for connections with screws... I wonder why?...)
And yes, I know SDS screws have shear values- they're really screws in name only, more like self drilling 1/4" bolts, actually.
k
This is all your fault and if I were the moderator here you'd be banned from this place for 1 year, or until you promised to never bring up the subject again!
I know I’m going to regret writing this because most people posting on this thread seem to have, let’s just say, less than an opened mind, but here I go. . .<!----><!----><!---->
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First of all, it seems pretty apparent that using screws for a new frame is very uncommon. Is it because nails hold better than screws? I don’t think so. However, I do think nails are the most practical choice. That is, they’re the perfect balance of cost combined with value.<!----><!---->
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Will I ever screw a frame together in new construction? That depends. Most people don’t think that $10,000 dollars of extra labor is worth properly fastening a new frame with screws – that’s because usually it’s not.<!----><!---->
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The first exception comes about though when you acquire a client that sees $10,000 as a drop in the bucket. He may very well know that nails are all that are necessary. What if he doesn’t care? If he values a frame screwed together as being worth $10,000 more than one nailed because it may be somewhat stronger, even it be unnecessary, then who are we to argue? It is his money, not ours.<!----><!---->-T
Let me tell you guys a brief story that illustrates my point. I’ve recently been remodeling one of the buildings at a university I frequently work on – Notre Dame. I spent countless hours removing trim, cabinets, and fixtures, only to replace them with items that were either of less quality – or often exactly the same! Imagine that, I’ve spent countless hours scribing and fitting trim, cabinets, and countertops to perfection that were already scribed and fit to perfection the first time! Not only that, but as I mentioned, although most of the items I’ve been installing are exactly the same, some of the items are of a lesser quality. I’ve been replacing real hardwood IN EXCELENT CONDITION with MDF! Yes, I’ve spent countless hours making perfect joints with MDF to replace perfect joints IN EXCELENT CONDITION in genuine hardwood.<!----><!----><!---->
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Now let me tell you my point. The whole idea of earning a living is to be a productive member of society. If you want society’s money, you have to provide society with what they want. If you want more of society’s money, you either have to provide what more of society wants, or you have to provide what society with more money wants. So if somebody’s going to pay me to screw their new wood frame together, I’m going to do it!-T
There are a couple of exceptions. I’m not going to do anything unsafe for a customer, and if I’m running my own business, I’m not going to do anything to less than average standards – even if the customer demands it. That rules out screwing a frame together with drywall screws. However, if they’re willing to pay me to screw together their frame with lag screws, or deck screws, or stainless steel screws, more power to them!<!----><!----><!---->
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The other exception is if I build my own house. Now I’m not paying the actual $10,000 – although I am paying the equivalent in time. However, what if I do it when there is no work for me anyway? I probably would screw my own house together, simply because it doesn’t cost as much for me to do it myself if I schedule it right, and I do think it would hold up better in a tornado.<!----><!---->
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Do you think that’s a stupid idea? Good! Then don’t screw YOUR house together! Leave mine alone!<!----><!---->-T
to screw together their frame with lag screws, or deck screws, or stainless steel screws, more power to them!
You're displaying your ignorance again T, Both Deck Screws and SS screws are going to have less shear strength then a 16.
"You're displaying your ignorance again T, Both Deck Screws and SS screws are going to have less shear strength then a 16."
Shear strength is only part of the equation.<!----><!----><!---->
Yeah, deck screws are no good. That's why contractors everywhere build decks using many 3" deck screws.<!----><!---->
Why don't you go get some experience with the farm help for a while before you try and tell the experts which screws they should use.-T
" before you try and tell the experts which screws they should use."This thread just never loses its entertainment value!
You calling your self an ex-spurt now!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"This thread just never loses its entertainment value!You calling your self an ex-spurt now!"
Piffin, I don’t want to be as arrogant as you’re being right now, so I will concede that you are somewhat of an expert because I’m trying to look at things objectively. However, from reading your posts in many different threads, it’s obvious that you’re not as good as you think you are. That’s the simple truth. Perhaps that’s hard for you to hear, but it needed to be said.<!----><!----><!---->
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Most of your pull on this forum does not come from knowledgeable posts (which, by the way, you used to have a lot more of), it comes from your spending more time than anyone else on this forum. Don’t get me wrong, we all love this forum. In your case though, I have to wonder, when do you actually build anything?<!----><!---->
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Despite how much it offends your pride, you need to realize that you are not the most excellent builder of the entire world – or even of the entire forum. There are people on this forum – even homeowners – who can build many things better than you can.-T
I'm not talking telling anyone which screws to use, nor did I suggest any type of particular screw.
Lets see who backs the use of screws here... You, someone who has continuously displayed you don't know what the #### you're doing or talking about, and two homeowners who have no real experience.
I'll just leave it that I'm glad I'm in the "camp" I am...
It's a mute point with the steel prices now.
Soon enough we'll be arguing about the best method
of "Lashing" houses together. And whether jute or sisal is the best choice.
>>> It's a mute point with the steel prices now.
Soon enough we'll be arguing about the best method
of "Lashing" houses together.And whether jute or sisal is the best choice. >>>Obviously you are an idiot because everyone knows hemp is best for lashing houses together. Go play in the sand.
You gotta be kiddin me!
Hemp?
What are you a closet hippie? I suppose next you'll be saying you prefer a half hitch.
Half hitch. Is that like common law marriage?
(I'm not sure these last posts don't make more sense than the previous 200 some odd...)
Square knots are OK on houses. Half hitches would only be used on modular homes.
Everyone knows sisal's for kids.
Houses of Hemp might be cool.I am an Animal
If you could make hemp houses, my neighbours would be millionaires.
" Soon enough we'll be arguing about the best method
of "Lashing" houses together.And whether jute or sisal is the best choice."One thing is for sure- if you think this discussion is heated, try getting a rock climber, mariner, and rescue worker together and ask them which knots are the safest. This discussion about screws & nails will look like a tea party next to the knot discussion that will ensue.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
CAGIV
please stop for a minute..
The claim was that all nails are superior to screws.. So far we've factually refuted that a number of ways.
Since doors and their hardware aren't nailed up, I've given you data on rafter strength, etc.
Now you're turning into a popularity contest?
Well You win.. nails are faster and easier. (I guess I've said that on nearly every post thus far)
In addition they are cheaper..
Those who understand and appricate the differance are a tiny minority.. those willing to pay the far higher costs associated with screws is even smaller!
Just like the number of people willing to pay for the finer things in life are far outnumbered by those who want cheap McMansions and fast food..
You win! Nails are more popular!
So can I still use screwsIf I choose to?
If the inspector allows it.
onder
I used to know where to find the exact Verbage authorising screws in the UBC
I also used to know exactly where in the UBC you are allowed to use ungraded lumber.. I'd have to go looking for it, but I'm sure it's still there.
IT's how I got my place past a relutant building inspector. Knowing chapter and verse. This is a town full of regulations. entry level homes start at 2million + so nothing get's approved without it meeting code..
CAGIV
You seem to jump at all sorts of assumptions.
Let me illustrate my point.. Ever nail a board in place only to have it curl as it dries? As it curls,warps, or twists while drying that connection is getting weaker and weaker as the nail is slowly pulled out.
If that board had been screwed in place the retention of screws would have prevented that weakened connection and thus resisting the boards twisting warping or curling..
Yeh, I know! You buy all KD wood. KD stands for Kiln Dried. However you choose to ignore the next two numbers, KD19. That stands for kiln dried to 19% moisture +or- 2%.
Wood indoors will dry to as low as 5% moisture during the winter heating season. drying from up to 21% moisture down to 5% induces all sorts of stress and that's why we get nail popping.. It's not because your guy didn't hit it hard enough, it's because wood shrinks and twistsand warps as it dries. Nail popping indicates a weaker than normal connection.. Since some of the strength of nail retention comes from the inital melting of the coating on nails when installed, once that bond is broken nail retention is reduced and pulling is easier..
>>> Let me illustrate my point.. Ever nail a board in place only to have it curl as it dries? As it curls,warps, or twists while drying that connection is getting weaker and weaker as the nail is slowly pulled out. >>>Frenchy, maybe some nails pull out easy, like smooth shank brites, but cement coated ringshanks don't. I reuse shipping crates to build whatnots with, and there is no way to pull those nails out. Some pull out with a bit of wood ripped out along with the nail, but most break off. I broke a claw off a 3' crow bar trying to pull something apart once. Theres nails, then there's NAILS. I try to not pull nails anymore than I have to now. I like to get screwed together crates cuz I can take them apart. And frequently they break off because they have bonded to the wood too tight to rotate, so they don't seem much of an advantage.I save the good ones and hammer them into my projects though.
MarkH
So you're saying that with rings tangentally to the shank it's harder to remove that fastener?
OK, I'll agree with that statement..
There are all sorts of things I won't do for customers simply because they are rich, and screwing their house together would be one of them.
I am sitting here in my own house. One I built with nails. Still waiting for someone to explain to me, even if I had unlimited time and money, how having screwed my house together would have appreciably improved it. Setting aside arcane arguments about relative shear strengths, practically, how does it affect my house now or in the future in any way that I would notice?
fingersandtoes..
If your house should never be exposed to any extrodinary foces then nails will work. However should your house be exposed to Tornados hurricanes high winds earthquakes or other ground movement, or any load beyond designed amounts the screws will provide additional strength. Finally, please read the previously posted comments about warping and twisting wood..
Bottom line, we all decide what to do and where to spend our time you are as free to nail as we are to screw.
Frenchy,
I am fortunate not to be subject to tornados or winds high enough to threated my house structure, but I live in a very active earthquake zone and know a fair amount about seismic design.
When I built I concentrated on insuring that my house would go some way towards limiting the damage if an earthquake occurs. It is well secured to the foundation which has quite a bit of reinforcing, and walls that contain large areas of glass are designed as shear walls.
Could I have done more? Sure. A continuous path of metal structural connections from foundation to roof deck. A concrete or steel shear core for the building to rotate around. Build on a thickened concrete raft slab, and on and on.
I don't know how long the list would have to be before I came to screwing the framing. Let's just say pretty long. In areas where the connections are important, like shear walls, the engineering simply calls for closer nailing patterns. In every case I can think of the screw is not a primary solution to the problem.
So again, if it's not the best way to solve any of the problems structurally facing me, why would I resort to it?
fingersand toes,,
I don't know where anybody go the idea that I insisted you do anything! I am telling people what I've done and why..
I don't ague with anybody that drilling a pilot hole and then a shank hole is a lot of extra work. Few can justify that. add the time I spent lubing the thread and the time I spent with a torque wrench to ensure I didn't strip out the wood and weaken what I was trying to achieve. You have someone who is trading a massive amount ofof time for gain few appricate.
You don't have to do that.. you could if you wanted to or something between the minimum and the best you can do..
I made my choice, you;re free to make yours..
JouneymanCarpenterT
To someone who only has a hammer everything looks like a nail.. please don't challenge some of thse people.
They Nail doors up and put towel racks up with Nails.They throw away those pesky screws they come with. I mean those flimsey brass screws can't stand the slamming and pounding they get so all the screws are replaced with nails..
The towel rack in their house is stronger because it's nailed up, oh and their foundation sill plates aren't screwed down they are nailed down..
IF you cause them to think for a moment you can expect as many personal attacks as I get..
Frenchy, unfortunately that’s very true. There are way too many personal attacks on this forum. It’s too bad, because I think that may be why Sonny Lycos left. Now if I want to talk to him, I have to visit JLC. I don’t like that.<!----><!----><!---->
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In times past, most of us have been very patient with the delinquent behavior of such personal attackers. However, personal attacks are a violation of forum regulations. If things get too personal this time, I’m going to have to report these violations.
If that means that some of these posters are banned from the forum for a while, well, I’m sorry. Maybe they’ll finally learn some respect for this forum.<!----><!---->
-T
Edited 5/9/2008 11:04 am by JourneymanCarpenterT
In times past, most of us have been very patient with the delinquent behavior of such personal attackers.
What personal attacks?
You came here and asked a question which you already in your mind had the answer to. Two people agree with you and the rest don't. You already have your mind made up, so why ask the question and get insulted if you don't like the answers?
Your right about everyone having an opinion and your right for your own opinion. If you think you can sell a job to a client by telling them you can give them a better product by screwing their house and no one else does and are better than the rest of the world, than go for it.
Joe Carola
>>> I think that may be why Sonny Lycos left. Now if I want to talk to him, I have to visit JLC. I don’t like that. >>>I thought that everyone knew Sonny died, bless his soul. I loved to read his posts, and since we're both conservatives, I agreed with him a lot. He had a stroke, then died of an infection that went to his heart. Check on JLC.
I have to visit JLC. I don’t like that.
If you don't like to visit JLC much, how come your over there all the time, and how come you started about 75 threads?
Post your questions like screwing houses together on a DIY'er forum then.<!----><!----><!---->
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=926581Joe Carola
He comes here because he'd get laughed off JLC
You have just seriously insulted us here by suggesting that we don't laugh at his posts
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
He comes here because he'd get laughed off JLC
Who, The Journeyman or Frenchy?
Joe Carola
Frankly either.
Though more Journey Man then Frenchy... At least frenchy doesn't pretend to be a professional.
Though more Journey Man then Frenchy... At least frenchy doesn't pretend to be a professional.
I wonder how the guys at JLC would react if I posted what he said over there.
Joe Carola
By gosh, I think he's got it!
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
because most people posting on this thread seem to have, let’s just say, less than an opened mind,
Wrong!! The minds of every Architect and Engineer have been open for hundreds of years and that's why they figured out that nails are the best solution to frame a house and not screws. Who are you? Do you know more than they do? Doesn't it prove something to you that millions of houses are framed with nails and not screws for a reason?
It has nothing to do with the cost. You just don't need screws. Why not screw the windows, sheathing, trim, siding, roofing while your at it. It makes no sense when nails do the job.
First of all, it seems pretty apparent that using screws for a new frame is very uncommon. Is it because nails hold better than screws?
I would say yes. Wouldn't you since the whole Country uses nails and every Architect and Engineer specs nails. Do you think that the whole Country is wrong and your right and you know more than they do?
Will I ever screw a frame together in new construction? That depends.
You probaly will since you obviuosly no more than the rest of the world who uses nails.
Most people don’t think that $10,000 dollars of extra labor is worth properly fastening a new frame with screws – that’s because usually it’s not.<!----><!---->
Nailing is Properly fastening a new frame. If screwing was the whole Country would be doing it! Are you trying to reinvent the wheel???
The first exception comes about though when you acquire a client that sees $10,000 as a drop in the bucket. He may very well know that nails are all that are necessary. What if he doesn’t care? If he values a frame screwed together as being worth $10,000 more than one nailed because it may be somewhat stronger, even it be unnecessary, then who are we to argue? It is his money, not ours.
If that's the case and you put it into the clients mind that a screwed house is stronger than a nailed house and he wants to spend 10 grand and waste his money just because he has it, fine. Your selling him a product he doesn't need and pissin away 10 grand for no reason.
Obviously you think that this is a good sales pitch and you think you will separate yourself from the rest of the good contractors out there by telling a client this nonsense. Your nothing more than a salesman selling something that's not needed.
Hello Mr & Mrs client, my company will screw your whole house together at an added 10k and make your house stronger. We provide this service and no one else does.
Client; Well, how come every house is nailed together and every Architect and Engineer designs them this way and your the only one offering to screw our house together?
You; Well because I know more than the rest of the Country and more than every Architect and Engineer and think it's stronger than nailing a house.
Client; So, should we spend the extra 10k and believe you or the rest of the County?
You; Me, because they are all wrong and I build a stronger house using screws.
If you want to separate yourself from the rest of the professional contractors, offer your potential clients building their house using all 3-1/2 x 11-7/8" lvl's for floor joists 12" centers, two layers of 3/4" t&g plywood sub-floor glued and screwed with 3" screws, 2x12 walls, double 5-1/2" x 11-7/8" lvl headers on every opening in the house, 3-1/2" x 11-7/8" ceiling joists and rafters 12" centers, two layers of 3/4" t&g glued and screwed sheathing on the walls and roof.............. because you think it's stronger.
Continue to use these sales pitches to your potential clients and sell them something that they don't need and rob them blind because they can afford and extra 10k because 10k to them is like 10 cents to someone else.
Joe Carola
Sigh. "Architects and Engineers" use nails in large part because they've always used nails, and so the specs for them are well known. If they used screws they'd have to provide extra engineering calculations (ie, extra work) to show to the BI that the screw assemblies are OK.I'm quite confident that if you talked to some engineers they would almsot universally acknowledge that screws are better, but would quickly add that nails are sufficient to meet spec, and meeting spec is what they're about.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
DanH
Well it's a chicken and egg thing. All Carpenters are skilled with a hammer so they make building a house a hammer thing. Note simpson connectors! ;-)
Screws are used in every house!
Last I heard you don't nail the sill plates down, they are screwed down! A lot of finish hardware goes on with screws.. if nails were so superior why aren't towel racks nailed?
Try nailing your door hardware on..
Oh!!!. this is simply too much fun!!
I love it when those who's mind is made up get a little light shined at them..
stand by for persoanal attacks..
Screws are used in every house!
Prove where screws are used to frame a whole house.
Last I heard you don't nail the sill plates down, they are screwed down!
Last you heard. That's funny. You're not even a framer or out there framing and your going by something you heard. I'm a framer and out there framing every day. Never once heard or seen that a sill plate is screwed down. Where did you here that, on a DIY'er forum?
So far there are three people here (DIY'ers obviously)that will screw a house together compared to ..........millions that don't and yet me and everyone else here who are professional contractors build by code and believe in what we are doing are are just code-minimum builders and don't build a strong house.
What in the world is this forum turning into!!!!!
Joe Carola
framer,
See those nuts with washers holding the sill plate down? Those are screw threads! Not nails! You screw those nuts down you don't hammer them down.
17 years in construction watching houses being built, watching thousands of builder building houses, apartments and every other kind of building I know more than a bit about construction.
As for millions? I'm sorry, watch nearly any high rise go up and they are bolted and screwed together not nailed!
Go a head and try to nail together a 6 story building.. see if it passes.
See those nuts with washers holding the sill plate down? Those are screw threads! Not nails! You screw those nuts down you don't hammer them down.
Yes, I put a nut and washer on j-bolts and then I NAIL the sills down. So j-bolts are the screws that we're talking about?
What's your answer to the straps that we use instead of j-bolts? The straps get nailed to the sills and then the sills get nailed to the foundation and into eachother.
Joe Carola
Framer
Tell me next time you use nails to put a door handle on or nails to put up a towel rack will you?.
But those threads the washer and nuts go on are screw threads. Not nails <grin>
A for those who strap sill plates to the foundation, well if we don't lose a few homes during torando season the news wouldn't have anything to report..
Tell me next time you use nails to put a door handle on or nails to put up a towel rack will you?.
That would never happen because they're not designed for nails, they are designed for using screws that come with the handle and towel rack. What does this have to do with nailing a house together that are specked with nails and not screws? That's like saying you would screw a house together instead of nailing it together.What professional contractor would screw a house together when nails are specked and that's all you need?
But those threads the washer and nuts go on are screw threads. Not nails.
Those are specked on the plans form an Architect or Engineer. You need to use those. The things next to them holding the sill into the foundation and the second sill into the first one are nails that are specked, not screwed.
A for those who strap sill plates to the foundation, well if we don't lose a few homes during torando season the news wouldn't have anything to report..
Those are specked on the plans designed by an Architect or Engineer. For a homeowner like yourself you are really clueless to what happens in the real world. Some day if you go out there and frame a house you will see that nails work.
Like I said before, what's happening to this forum. Screwing houses together.........................
Joe Carola
Edited 5/9/2008 1:53 pm ET by Framer
See those nuts with washers holding the sill plate down? Those are screw threads! Not nails! You screw those nuts down you don't hammer them down.
I'll keep nailing three story buildings together and watch them pass like they always do. 6 Story, heaven't framed one yet, but we're not talking 6 story now are we.
Joe Carola
We use the Simpson MASP strap because it is more cost effective. It is also a real time saver.
Last I heard you don't nail the sill plates down, they are screwed down!
Actually, they are bolted down. I don't think I've ever seen a sill plate screwed down in new construction (retrofit is another animal), although I haven't seen all the houses under construction that you have.
You do bring up a good point. Why are we fixated on using screws when bolts are obviously superior. If a lag screw fails at 4,800 lbs., I bet a properly installed bolt would be twice that. That would be really great.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think you are onto something Jon.Frenchy...stop using screws and bolt everthing with 3/4" grade 10 bolts! Use stainless steel ones too. Toss in a couple of 1 1/2" bolts every once in a while to really hold things together. Also, put the bolts 8" oc when you are holding down the interior partitions to the wood subfloor. I don't want the fan to blow the bottom plate out of alignment when we turn it on. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
several points there are no grade 10 bolts, only goes to grade 9 above that we meet specs such as AN, NASA, etc..
Stainless steel won't go above I think it's grade 5 and to achieve that requires hardening and other treatments..
Sorry to tell you but I know the secret to make grade 10 stainless. If I give you the formula, I'll have to zombieyze you. I'll spare you that because I like you. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>If I give you the formula, I'll have to zombieyze you.<
I think someone else already told him the secret and performed the necessary post-memo operation.
"You do bring up a good point. Why are we fixated on using screws when bolts are obviously superior. If a lag screw fails at 4,800 lbs., I bet a properly installed bolt would be twice that. That would be really great."
Yes, that is a good point. Didn’t someone mention bolting a wall frame together for earthquake areas earlier in this thread? I believe that system was invented by engineers. The poster also mentioned that it wouldn’t be much more work to extend the bolts through the rafters. All we’d need is an engineers approval to extend the bolts through the rafters and we’d not only have more protection from an earthquake, but also a tornado.<!----><!----><!---->
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There, it’s settled. As per building wood frame houses with the hardware available right now, bolts are the strongest. It has the engineer’s stamp of approval.-T
Instead of bolts, the structure should be built on shock absorbers. There's no sense being too cheap to add the proper shock absorbers if we're going to abandon nails and switch to screws, right? It's only money! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jon
Buddy those are screw threads on that thing the washer and nut go on.. ;-) so much for semantics. <grin>
Yes when loads do become serious bolts are stronger.. railroad bridges aren't nailed together they are screwed together with bolts .
Rail road bridges are suspended in the air and require specific fasteners....probably lots of rivets. Rail road tracks are on the ground and they NAIL them! Ps...I can't believe you chose a railroad to make your argument! That's the biggest gaffe I could think of LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
If you check old wooden railroad bridges are all bolted together I know most railroad ties around the world are now days screwed down and have been since prior to WW2 I do know they used to be spiked down. I'm not sure all modern railroads in America screw them or not.
Rails have never been screwed to ties.
Modern wooden ties still have the rails spiked to them.
Concrete ties use a steel clip device.
No screws.
Sometimes the rails are screwed. I've seen the screws -- a sort of lag bolt with an agressive thread. Not sure why they decide to use screws when they do.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Hammerharry,
Go to Europe, go to Asia, go to most places in the world.. I have seen screwdriving machines at the local Gandy Dancer manufacuring place here. So I don't know that all Rails in America are spiked. IN fact I'm pretty sure that someplace out east where they were planning to put in high speed rail they've already converted that track to screws.
Those spikes could be why our railroads aren't on par with the rest of the world. You can take a train from the center of London to the center of Paris and it will only take 75 minutes.. Speeds in excess of 300KPH. Our best and fastest trains rarely will exceed 1/3 of that.
Make the same trip via airline and it's the better part of two hours. I rode the Bullet Train in Japan Going from Osaka to Tokyo. I think we were going something like 400KPH
PS if you ddon't know what a gandy Dancer is you really don't have a dog in this fight..
Frenchy
I've worked on the railroad and if you think that the reason that our railroads aren't up to snuff with the one over in Europe and other parts of the world are because we spike rails down instead of screw them down then you been standing around watching again instead of actually doing! And I make no claim to how the railroads are built over there, don't care.
BTW, you mention that you've seen hundreds, thousands, Hell I don't know, maybe millions of homes being built, well I've seen hundreds, perhaps thousands if you count my whole life, airplanes flying overhead but would you let me fly you someplace? Quite using the spectator aspect as your proof of knowledge, not a good idea. Just think of a football game, see if you can go out and do it like the pro's cause you've seen it done.
And I know what a gandy dancer is!
You've been comparing apples to oranges for the whole time on this thread and you just don't get it.
Doug
DougU
OK since you don't get it all. Your job is to go back and find any place where I said you had to use screws..
DougU
Your arguement is wrong. The coach who tells the football players what to do may not be able to catch a football or block a tackle.. but he knows.
The designer who plans the building may not be able to drive a nail straight but he knows..
I've provided you with data and given you plenty of common sense reasons why screws will work..
I haven't told you that you must use screws.. Have I? In fact I've given you plenty of reasons why screws aren't used.
However because they aren't strong and durable isn't one of them..
You don't care that almost everyplace in the world screws down railroad tracks instead of spikes them down is exactly why you are losing this arguement..
Tradition is outdated. Even American railroads are starting to screw down tracks. Save those railroad spikes,, Your grandchildren can be entertained by your stories of I remember when..
is exactly why you are losing this arguement..
They say that half the battle is believing and you sure as hell believe, but that still don't make you right!
I'm not losing any argument cause I know better then to argue with you.
Oh, and please quite using the term common sense, you you haven't used any on this thread yet!
Doug
DougU
OH?!!! So you do use nails to hold your doors hardware on and hang towel racks with?
However for a person who believes he isn't argueing you sure post a fair amount in conflict with my statements..
What do you call that?
High speed rail uses concrete ties and clips from Pandrol and the like. Not wooden ties.
I've been on a gandy dancer, you don't have to pretend your stuff with me. I'd like you to show me a line in North America where the rails are held down with screws. Unlike some, I'm always open to learning something.
HammerHarry.
There is a place nearby That I sold forklifts to that make gandy dancers and other line maintinace equipment and they are busy making them..
Very impressive equipment, they do it while rolling!
Frenchy, there is a time and place for screws as well as nails. Sometimes screws don't do the same thing as nails and sometimes the nails don't do the same thing as screws. Sometimes the screws are needed because they can be removed.If making the strongest walls is the goal, then wood, nails and screws should be abandoned altoghther. I'm thinking that the entire house should be carved out of a giagantic block of special steel alloys, whose formulas are so secret that if I told you, I'd have to obliterate your mind and turn you into a blabbering zombie. Err..... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
I don't disagree that using screws is an added step. One that is extremely laborious and in some cases totally unneeded.
Never argued that have I?
IF you want to use a Simpson H6& H7 on your rafters that's fine. that's 30 nails to do what one lag bolt will. But maybe you're more comfortable nailing than screwing.. Then you would have a rafter assembly as strong as a single 3/8ths inch lag bolt improperly installed..
There clearly are places where screws are called for.. doors, most hardware, etc. etc.
Boards warp twist and pull loose when nailed that won't do that with screws..
Code isn't the maximum a person needs to do, it's the minimum.. Going beyond the minimum is always expensive and seldom easy to justify..
I'm reminded of the argument a while back where I claimed my house would withstand a level 5 tornado.. everybody ridiculed me for that statement.. and if my house was built like any other house they may have a point..
but screws will remain in place long after nails are pulled out.. Hardwood makes it even harder to pull screws loose..
Just like ring shanks are an improvement in smooth nails ability to retain screws are an improvement over ring shanks..
Code isn't the maximum a person needs to do, it's the minimum..
So what does a guy like you and the other 1 or 2 guys do if and when you ever get a set of plans to frame a house. Do you sit there and say;
1) 2x6 sills specked......not good enough, I'll use 2x8's because 2x6's are code-minimum and I want to build a stronger house than the rest of the guys out there.
2) Nails in the sills........not good enough code- minimum, I'm using screws.
3) 2x10 floor joists.......not good enough, code-minimum, I'm using 3-1/2 x11-7/8" lvl's.
4) Sub-floor 3/4 t&g glued and nailed with rig-shank.....not good enough code- minimum, I'm using 2 layers of 3/4" t&g and 3" screws.
4) 2x4 walls 16" centers.....not good enough, code-minimum, I'm using 2x12's 12" centers.
5) Double 2x10 Headers....not good enough, code-minimum, I'm using two 5-1/2" x 11-7/8" lvl's.
Should I continue..............
Joe Carola
Framer
I did..
I think 2x6 wall will take something like 150 pound loading per foot if properly assembled.
MY walls will take something like 20,000 pounds per foot.
shall I go on?
I think 2x6 wall will take something like 150 pound loading per foot if properly assembled.
I have no idea or could care less. I build according to Architectural plans and pass all inspections.
MY walls will take something like 20,000 pounds per foot.
Wow!! could've done it for 150 per foot and have your house still standing. When the F-5 Tornado hits or Tsunami hits your street, your house at 20,000 pounds per foot will be twisting or floating next to every other house at 150 pounds per foot.
Why didn't you make your house 100,000 pounds per foot..............
Joe Carola
Framer,
Joe it's strength is a by-product of the look I wanted to achieve.. Some may decide between cedar shakes and hardieplank.
I decided that black walnut beams and stone would look good on the outside. While I still wanted to look at a timberframe on the inside.. so the inside timbers are white oak the outside timbers are black walnut and there are SIP's in between which are 200% stronger than stick framed walls..
Massive over built? So what, it wasn't expensive..
If you haven't seen my place you can do so at 85891.1& 94941.1
This thread is dead. Frenchy is beating a dead horse because he obviously wants to stir things up again. BTW Frenchy, you didn't answer the three questions about screws I mentioned to Joe.
Those of you who want to continue arguing about this subject, go ahead. I have better things to do. I'm starting a new thread.
See ya.-T
jouneymanCapenterT
I'm sorry, which three questions?
Umm.....Frenchy....I hate to tell you this....but......lag bolts are not screws! They are BOLTS!. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
technically they are called lag screws.. Common usage is to call them lag bolts.
Lag bolts...lag screws....either is correct. Look it up.And railroad rail plates are still being spiked...er....nailed down.Keep this inane argument up and you'll soon pass Piffen in the post count....I am an Animal
"Last I heard you don't nail the sill plates down, they are screwed down! "after forty years building,I haven't seen that happen yet. You have the most vivid imagination I have ever heard of, 'cept for maybe sci-fi writers
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Piffin,
Do you see those things with the screw threads sticking up that you put washer and a nut on and screw down? You sure don't nail them down now do you?
You must be smoking your hemp instead of building your house with it! The difference between a screw and a bolt is greater than the difference between a screw and a nail
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Well about the only thing that I've learned on this thread is that Frency likes screws, loves to pretend he's an engineer, probably has a screw or two loose and needs a job really bad. Please, cant someone at 7-11 give this guy a chance!
Oh, and JourneymanCarpenterT AINT!
Now if I could only get back some of that time I wasted.
Doug
If you were paying attention, you might have also learned that I don't know as much as I think I do, I think.But if you are like me, you already knew that.
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PAY ATTENTION, I'm to numb to pay attention!
I like you.....even if you are dumb! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
guess not Pif..
you asked for it....
you said you were staying clear of thei thread and didn't...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yeahBut this earwax is finally good for something
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
on the hand it's easy to keep windex and paper towels handy ot just remeber to drink yur beverage between posts...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
how would that era wax work as screw lube???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
new accessory for the Piffinscrew line of products
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Calm down man . . .<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I never said I thought I was smarter than all of engineers, architects, and contractors in the world, I just think that they spec nails for a different reason.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Ditto what Dan said:<!----><!---->
“I'm quite confident that if you talked to some engineers they would almost universally acknowledge that screws are better, but would quickly add that nails are sufficient to meet spec, and meeting spec is what they're about.”<!----><!---->
You have a lot of experience in framing, and don't think the fact that you regard nails as better doesn’t mean something to me, it does. In fact, there are a lot of factors regarding screws verses nails that haven’t been addressed yet.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For example . . .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Which nails would bend more than screws before snapping?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
While one 3/8” lag screw resists uplift better than 16d nails, would the only one lag screw per rafter resist less lateral force?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
What is the result of a closer equivalent to two or three 16d nails? That is, how would two or three 3/16” thick and 3” long lag screws hold up?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m entitled to mine also.<!----><!---->-T
Not interested in the old screw/nail arguement. but steel studs are very structural as of late. Commonly used on multi-story buildings with shear drywall.
Link; http://www.sureboard.com/Default.asp Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Cool! Thanks for the link.
k
I think it's funny (and sad) for us who have spent our time reading this thread that the answer is obvious....... There is none. There is no right or wrong. You have Framer who is set in his his ways and for him it would not be practical to use screws (That would screw up framing!) Then you have Frenchy who is trying to beat a dead horse by preaching to everyone and impress them with his knowledge of engineering. While it is entertaining, I think we all at this point see the big picture (except for maybe Framer), it's discussions like these that help us think outside the box. Hopefully new ideas can be spawned from such mundane and basically mind numbing questions. Because god knows for us that have been tortured by this thread there is no getting back the time we have lost engaging in it.
Edited 5/10/2008 1:41 am ET by deliamey
No, no, no!! You're not allowed to be rational in this thread.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
deliamey
I do agree with you in that a large percentage of my opponates will never consider using screws.
I'm not trying to impress anyone as I've said it was my choice to do this and I have also said that I didn't do this to obtain strength. Rather because I wanted a certain look.. I figured out how to achieve that look and a by product of that was a massively strong wall.
I've repeated and repeated how labor intensive it is to build this way and therefore I am not telling anyone they have to or should build this way..
What I sincerly hope is that builders do start attaching roof rafters with something more than the traditonal toenail.
Those simpson connectors all work, they are tested and well proven.. Plus you can use nails!!!!!!!!
Frankly I think it would be faster to install a single lag bolt thru than the 30 nails required when the H6&H7 are combined.
However, so many people really seem to hate screws so much I think that nails would entice them to use them..
PS with regard to the data I provide. I really am sorry about that.. NO I'm not trying to be an engineer, but there are enough psuedo experts around here that if you don't provide them with source information they will call you a liar..
Calling others a liar seems very big on this site when there are disagreements..
Edited 5/10/2008 11:40 am ET by frenchy
"What I sincerly hope is that builders do start attaching roof rafters with something more than the traditonal toenail."We have been for 10-20 years now
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Piffin.
Good for you!
I am so sick to death of looking at roofs around here toenailed I want to puke!
This is tornado area yet I haven't seen 10 houses use clips on the rafters in all the years I spent searching for customers.. (Most framers office is the dash of their pickup and the kitchen table, thus requiring a lot of driving and looking)
When those toenails pull loose the wind blows down the house and people inside are in harms way.. A little more cost and effort would avoid that.
" I am so sick to death of looking at roofs around here toenailed I want to puke! This is tornado area yet I haven't seen 10 houses use clips on the rafters in all the years I spent searching for customers.. "Observations are critical to determining the facts Frenchy. I'm glad that you have a good handle on what the building practices are. Now, to complete the equation, we need to know how many homes you have observed that had their roofs blown off as a result of those toenails.Then, give us the failure rate of each types of construction as a percentage. That number will be the important one to consider.My guess is that your area has experienced a failure rate of .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
How many homes are ruined every year by tornados, hurricanes, high winds, earthquakes?
The process is simple, the roof lifts off & the walls fall down..
Keep the roof on and many homes would remain standing. thus providing the occupants with a better chance of living..
So if we save 1/2 of them because clips are used and it costs as little as $35.00* per hundred to install according to the data (maximum of $95 per hundred of the H6) are we being frivolous with money?
I think 1/2 would be an understatement.. but that's my opinion, I don't have access to the actuarial tables to confirm the numbers.
In addition fewer houses would be total losses then and the pressure on insurance companies to raise rates again would be lessoned.
So if you don't feel that spending a few bucks to make a home safer is worth it don't do it.. be sure to use that logic with your buyers.. They'll appreciate your taking that decision out of their hands..
*ask Piffin for currant install costs these are a bit dated.
you accuse others of ignorning questions... why don't you answer Jims.
And when did this discussion turn from screws to hangers?
Seems that he thinks that comparing toenails to nailed hardware is somehow connected to screws
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It's a wonder his head doesn't explode with all the various to and fro thoughts.
Frenchy:
Why is it, as soon as you get corned in an argument you either A) can not produce the documentation to support your claim, and forget about the stats you mentioned eariler... I get it. B) Refuse to answer a questions, or C) Completely change gears.
as for JmanT. What a joke.... Journeyman my ####... he's a wanna-be with to many lame questions and not enough sense to listen to reason. Frenchy I can handle/ignore.
Journeyman T is part of the reason this industry has such low credibility. People who either act like they know everything and know nothing and then are to ignorant to realize it. Sure he asks a lot of dumb questions, he just can't seem to listen to the answers. In the end the customer and industry suffer. Though with any luck his "new" business endevor will go the same way the last did, and for good reason, and they'll be one less hack out there.
CAGIV
I've provided you with all the documentation needed.. I will repeat the source.
The Best Of Fine Homebuilding
Framing roofs
page 126 to 129
To the very best of my ability I have answered every single question no matter the number of times the same question has been asked and answered..
Frenchy, you skipped this question..."we need to know how many homes you have observed that had their roofs blown off"I think I know the answer: NONE!It's a false issue unless you are in hurricane country. Then, houses should ONLY be built with concrete.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Fair enough, I did skip over that question about how many roof's I seen removed from tornados.
I assume you don't want me to count those only partly removed like my neighbors?
Do you want me to count those I've seen in newspapers and on TV as well?
How far back can I go?
For roofs completely removed from houses, I've personally seen and not on TV or in Newspapers I suspect we're speaking a few hundred.. double that number if we allow TV and newspapers.. I'm not counting barns and commercial buildings etc..
But we're speaking a 55 year period.. (I won't count those I saw as a small child before age of 5) That at best is a guess. (and to those who are checking No I don't have a link to how many I've seen <grin>)
Your numbers seem high compared to MI's. I've seen millions of homes and maybe 30 without roofs when a tornado went through and I worked in the sub. I'm not losing any sleep because there aren't simpson straps on the trusses above my head when I visit MI. Interesingly, in the tornado zone I worked in, the top plate was gone along with the trusses on one house. The simpson fasteners might not have helped on that one. Also, in MI, they allow walls to be sheathed in 1/2" foam. That means the top plates are held down by the spikes into the end grain of the studs. The foam sheathing doesn't provide any additional holding power to the top plates. Simpson "t-braces" are installed and they have two nails holding the plates. But.....they all have simpson "hurricane" ties LOL! It's nonsense. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I forgot to mention. Everyone has a basement in MI. (almost everyone for the nitpickers...) If we all were truly worried about tornados, it would be mandatory to build a tornado shelter below grade, such as a basement. That would most certainly save lives instead of the bandaids (simpson hurricane ties) that are currently specced. I don't mind safety measures but I do mind the hypocrosy of it all. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Minnesota is well known as part of Tornado alley. That's why my numbers are so high.. we always have several tornados a year in this state and during the early summer when they are most common it's not unusal to get several tornado warnings a week..
Simpsons H6 in conjuction with their H7 would have solved that issue. Or a single lag bolt thru the rafters, past the top plate and into the vertical would have. (the way my house is built).. <grin>
What I sincerly hope is that builders do start attaching roof rafters with something more than the traditonal toenail.
Why Frenchy because your the only guy on the planet that screwed his whole house together? Nails work and have always worked. Look at houses that are hundreds of years old. Rafters are still there with nails.
Your one person who built his house with screws. What is it that you know and the rest of the world doesn't know? You know more than Architects and Engineers?
The rafter is toenailed through the top plate. The ceiling joists is toenailed through the top plate. The rafter is nailed to the ceiling joists. Where does the rafter go? Where does the rafter not go using screws in the same situation?
For the people who believe that using screws is better, how come your not???
Joe Carola
Joe you have way too much patience on this thread! Up here on the west coast of Canada we always have an engineer framing inspection as well as the building dept inspections. One thing he always checks on is to have minimum six toenails in the rafter/plate connection.
Funny thing is, there is no common working ground with the two parties. The city building inspector comes (ex builder gone broke) and specifies hurricane ties! All three engineering firms we have here don't ask for them but the one city inspector does!
He probably screws his house together too!
Joe you have way too much patience on this thread!
That's because you deal with Homeowners here like Frenchy and a few others a lot and you have to have a little patience. Real contractors wouldn't be having this conversation and entertaining the thought of screwing houses together.
I've been framing for 24-25 years now and follow every plan drawn by an Architect and sometimes Engineers step in with some Architects and change things. I change with the times as do the plans. I don't deviate from the plans.
If I see something that doesn't look right especially structurally, I call the Architect up in 2 seconds and have it resolved. I know how to frame a house and everyone makes mistakes. Architects have made some big mistakes on plans structurally that I'm bidding on and I caught them and they were resolved.
With all the talk about shear this and shear that and all the hold downs and hardware people use, we don't use any of that yet. When the day comes that I see a set of plans with all this hardware, I will not question it, I will bid the job installing it and do it, it's that simple.
I have had many conversations about all this talk about all the hardware used especially on the West coast with Architects and builders. We haven't adapted to that yet. When we do, I do.
The only thing I've done different is towards the Jersey shore. I just framed my friends house and he's right on the water. No cathedral ceilings. All 2x8 ceiling joists and 2x10 rafters. I had to put hurricane ties on, something new because the only time I put hurricane ties on are when we frame for a cathedral ceiling.
Where I live, no hurricane ties on with ceiling joists nailed on the top plate and along side the rafters. These are the [plans I have to follow. With all that said, there has never once been a conversation about EVER screwing down framing, such as sill plates, floor joists, shoes, wall studs, ceiling joists, rafters............etc.
Am I supposed to look at every plan and dissect it and say that every plan is code-minimum and I should change them and try to make the house stronger by adding screws instead of nails or trying to beef up the lumber.......never! If I see a 2x10 floor joist spanning 18', I will say something because it's not right to me because I've never spanned them that far.
If I was crazy enough to even try and do that I couldn't because I can't change the plans, I don't have the authority to do that. If I framed with screws instead of nails or changed the size of joists or anything structurally, I'm in trouble.
I don't design houses, I build them, I'm trusting that every Architect and Engineer is going to do the right thing (which is not always true)and I'm trusting in myself after all these years of framing that I can pick something out that doesn't look right and solve it BEFORE I frame it.
I'm not the type of guy that frames an addition or house according to the plans first and frame it wrong and when the inspector shows up fails and says, "Well I followed the plans" I would be and idiot to say or do that. I should've known better before I framed a roof and the rafters were only 5' off the floor for a ceiling height in a bedroom. I know a lot of framers that do that and these idiots and have no idea what they're doing.
Joe Carola
framer,
OK with all your knowledge and experiance how would you have nailed my house together?
Gotta go by the basic plans.. black walnut timbers on the Outside, SIP's between, and white oak timbers inside.
OK with all your knowledge and experiance how would you have nailed my house together?
Gotta go by the basic plans.. black walnut timbers on the Outside, SIP's between, and white oak timbers inside.
Which ever way the plans specked is the way I would've nailed it together, if they specked nails, if they specked screws, I would've screwed the house together.
I have no knowledge at all of how to frame what you did. I would find out first how to and what fasteners to use. Sounds like you didn't have them specked and you just guessed at it.
What does your house have to do with the houses I frame and everyone else frames? That's what we're talking about. You keep talking about your house which means nothing.
How would you frame the same house that I frame? You would use all screws and no nails?
Joe Carola
Edited 5/10/2008 12:12 pm ET by Framer
Joe,
You just don't get it do you? I keep telling you nails are fine for you.. I also say there are reasons to use screws. I give you data, I give you examples, I give you common sense.
Finally I give you an option to second guess my design ability.
I screwed my place together because that is the way it was designed.. Nails would not have worked in my case
There are just some places where nails are inferior to screws.
Yet no place have I said you have to use screws have I?
You just don't get it do you? I keep telling you nails are fine for you..
You keep talking about your house which means nothing,nailing towel racks,door knobs and screwing rafters instead of toenailing and screwing sills in. You even said that I screw sills in. What made you say that I screw sills down?
Where are you getting all this nonsense from?
I also say there are reasons to use screws. I give you data, I give you examples, I give you common sense.
Those are your reasons.Your data means nothing if the Architects and Engineers don't feel the need to use screws on houses and keep using nails that work.
You also talk about how your house is built for 2 zillion pound per foot compared to the rest of the world. I also told you that your house will be twisting with the rest of the houses on your street in a F-5 tornado and your house will be floating next to the rest when a Tsunami hits your street.
What good are all your screws going to do.........
Joe Carola
Right, that's it I can't stand it anymore. The next one who post's is a sisal (I mean sissy)!
Joe,
I have every reason to believe that my house will withstand an F5 tornado.. as for a Tsunami if one reaches my neighborhood we're all going to be dead.
I have every reason to believe that my house will withstand an F5 tornado..
That was a good one Frenchy. It almost sounded like you were serious. I know that you realize your house would be spinning around next to your neighbors house with Dorothy and Toto.....
Joe Carola
framer
I said it, I've debated it, and I've provided clear logoical reasons why My house would survive a F5 Tornado structually secure.
(for what it's worth the highest recorded tornado in Minnesota is a recent one concentrated In the St Peter area.. That was an F2)
Wood is easily capable of withstanding wind speeds well in excess of 400 MPH
For proof look to the British Misquito of WW2. That was made of wood (spruce) and tiny little brads and glue allowed it to those sorts of speeds and endure the ravages of war.
"and tiny little brads and glue allowed it to those sorts of speeds and endure the ravages of war."LOL, you mean small nails, don't you?
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piffins,
No I was correct.. they used small brads to hold the pieces in place while the glue dried. Once dried the bards did nothing.. (It's sort of the like the pins used to hem a skirt before sewing)
Point of fact - a brad IS a small nail. They did not use screws
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That's true.And furthermore, the wood structure of those airplanes was designed to withstand distributed forces on the outside surfaces and the fuselage structure was covered with a thin shell that provided the aerodynamic assets and, as a side bonus, protection of the wooden and steel and aluminum structural members with the aircraft hull.Those wood structural members, including the spars and wing roots were not subjected to direct 'true air-speed' wind forces.I am an Animal
I was wondering if the skin of those planes could adequately hold the shingle nails for archtectural grade shingles? If not, then his analogy does not pass the debating criteria for logical arguments. On the otherhand, if the plane can keep the vinyl siding on at 400 MPH, then I guess he's got a point. I'll ask him.Hey Frenchy....did the vinyl siding fly off the house-plane when it was flying at 400 MPH? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Notchman,
So removal of the wood and the plane would fly? It was the strength of the wood (and glue) which allowed the misquito to be one of the fastest planes of the war..
you guys crack me up with your semantics..
You crack me up with your analogies. It must be the natural saleman in you...no tactic is too silly LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I once warned Dieselpig that argueing with Frenchy would lead to high blood pressure and the accelerated onset of male pattern baldness.Now here I am, age 61 and too stupid to follow my own advise!I am an Animal
And all this time I've been blaming pattern baldness on Mom's genetics
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Piffin
Or a big pin. it had no structural strength , I repeat they were only used to hold the wood piece in place while the glue dried..
So the fact that you brought it up in this context means you were diverting attention from the fact that you have no real true information to back you up.
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I think we should jsut glue the rafter down to the top plate.
I'd use brads too for peace of mind.
But I would screw the shingles on. I've seen lots of shingles blown off.
Shingles are a good example of where better technology isn't universally accepted. Interlocking tab shingles are virtually blow-off proof and have an "architectural" appearance, but are rarely used outside of a few high wind areas.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
>But I would screw the shingles on.<
But would you screw the flashing too?
Gotta bolt that down
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would that be bolt or screw? And how big of a hammer would you use to drive them?
I think we should jsut glue the rafter down to the top plate.
You forgot screws. Stop being set in your ways and close minded. You have to learn how to think outside the box..........;-)
Joe Carola
Edited 5/10/2008 6:22 pm ET by Framer
the screws would only be temporary 'til the glue set up, then we could take the screws out and use them for the shingles.
Sure, the brads will hold it until the glue sets
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Piffin,
Now what are you whining about?
I'm sitting here LMAO, no whinecount how many posts you have here in this thread all saying the same thing and compare them to mine and tell me again who is whining.
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I said it, I've debated it, and I've provided clear logoical reasons why My house would survive a F5 Tornado structually secure.
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought you were joking. I feel sorry for you Frenchy because if you really believe what you just said, you are in serious trouble. You need some professional help soon!
Good luck!
Joe Carola
Framer
I think this is worthy of it's own thread. On second thought this has been debated here in the past and those who have visited my home agree that it's likely.
When you look at the actual numbers you'll see why.
Would you like me to go into those or do you just want to mouth off about something you know absolutely nothing about?
Edited 5/10/2008 2:43 pm ET by frenchy
When you look at the actual numbers you'll see why.
Would you like me to go into those or do you just want to mouth off about something you know absolutely nothing about?
There are no numbers that you could possibly produce to prove to me that your house will stand up in an F5. Don't even bother.
Sweet dreams!
Joe Carola
Framer,
Look at the numbers in the article then simply extrolate them to my situation.
Just in case you don't own the book, here they are..
75 MPH wind speed 3/12 pitch roof, 30x 60 with 86 rafter connection points.. up lift at 370 pounds,
100 mph wind speed, uplift at 957 pounds,
125 Mph wind speed up lift at 1496 pounds..
Max recorded wind speed in a F5 tornado is 354 mph.
single 3/8ths inch lag screw improperly installed in SPF wood.. 2783 pounds..
Triple 1/2 inch stainless steel hardened 18/8 lag screw properly installed into white oak timber. 18, 500 pounds per rafter.
Failing that get an architect to crunch the numbers for you.. My brother-in-law has and it stands up.
Those numbers mean nothing.Joe Carola
I agree Joe. If the tornado lands on his house, there won't be anything left. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If the tornado lands on his house, there won't be anything left.
Jim,
Not according to Frenchy. I guess Dorothy and Toto are travelling without Frenchy....Joe Carola
Actually, I'm counting on our properties being beachfront in another 50 years.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I'm hoping for next month! It's gettin hot here and a beachfront breeze will be the Cat's Meow! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
framer.
Do you have trouble with the english language? You keep using the word better. I don't.
I've given specific instances where screws are stronger. Provided you with data to confirm that. Given you plenty of specific instances where they would be superior in retention and durability.
I've also said repeatedly that screws take more time and doing the job really correctly requires even more time.
No place did I ever insist that you use screws. If you want to nail your door knobs on Be my guest. If you want to put your towels on a rack that is nailed to the wall go ahead..
framer.
Do you have trouble with the english language? You keep using the word better. I don't.
I've given specific instances where screws are stronger. Provided you with data to confirm that. Given you plenty of specific instances where they would be superior in retention and durability.
I've also said repeatedly that screws take more time and doing the job really correctly requires even more time.
No place did I ever insist that you use screws. If you want to nail your door knobs on Be my guest. If you want to put your towels on a rack that is nailed to the wall go ahead..
Frenchy,
You must have forgotten to take your meds. I think you should go find them because you are seriuosly sick. Good Luck!!!
Joe Carola
"What I sincerly hope is that builders do start attaching roof rafters with something more than the traditonal toenail."Don't lose any sleep if someone only uses toenails. I'm attached a picture of the northern suburbs where we built millions of homes without any foundation bolts or straps and no truss ties. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue,
I'm not terribly familar with Detriot, do you ever get struck by tornados or high enough winds to knock roofs off?
I know Texas does.. so If you aren't strapping the roof rafters and screwing the sill plates down wouldn't that make you liable? More to the point if someone is killed or injured because a tornado stikes and the roof blows off how would you sleep at night?
Yes, I worked a tornado zone back in the 70's. We put temp roofs on houses for a couple weeks. I can say for certainty that the simpsons straps that they require today in the metro detroit area would not have helped one bit. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Notice that I'm talking about a few dozen houses that had SOME damage back in the 70's? We also could worry about asteroids hitting. I've read that they do incredible damage when they land on top of a house. What is your suggestion for preventing that possibility. One more thing....trailer parks ALWAYS sustain major damage in every "tornado-like" weather. If the powers that be are truly interested in saving lives, they'd ban them instead of forcing builders to put needless simpson garbage on.Note: I'm sure there are areas of the country that do need simspson straps, so the above statement does not apply everywhere. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue.
Since there is such a differance between straps from as low as 339 to 2518 pounds per rafter more than toe nailing I suspect that your statement isn't completely valid..
According to the data in the article a roof will withstand a basic 75 MPH windspeed with a typical toenailed rafter. However when the speed is increased to 100 mph 957 pounds of lift are felt by each rafter and 125 MPH winds require 1496 pounds per rafter. extrapolating that data a level 1or 2 tornado demands would be met by and H7 and marginal at a F3 tornado..
The use of 3/8ths inch lags properly installed would likely survive as high as an F4 if the rest of the house was capable..
I am going to remind you that as early as WW2 a British misquito fighter bomber made virtaully entirely of wood was capable of speeds well in excess of 400 MPH.
That's right,, it used tiny brads and glue to not only go that fast. It was subjected to harsh demands of war including being blown to bits and still expected to fly home.
You have Framer who is set in his his ways and for him it would not be practical to use screws (That would screw up framing!)
How am I set in my ways? I change my framing as the years pass. When the plans come in and there are changes in the way we frame, I change with them. It's that simple, plus I have no choice.
So far in over 24 years of framing, screwing houses together hasn't been one of them. So, it's not up to me to come up with screwing a house together instead of nailing it together. If it was up to me, I would have to ask the Architect who drew the plans and he would have to ok it and so would the building inspector.
I think we all at this point see the big picture (except for maybe Framer), it's discussions like these that help us think outside the box.
What big picture am I missing.....screwing houses together? Screwing houses together is thinking outside the box?? That's ridiculous! You must be a homeowner also.
If your not a homeowner and you are a contractor, are you screwing your houses and additions together? If not why aren't you?
This is what I do for a living. I have to know everything there is to know about framing. So far I have a good idea on how to frame and how to look at a set of plans and see if something is wrong structurally. I don't know everything about framing and I'm always willing to learn more and have to learn more. I pass all framing inspections. I have to or I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm doing.
This screwing houses together is certainly not something I am willing to even consider because one or two homeowners suggested it on a Builders forum unless for some reason I start getting plans that call for it. I doubt it in my lifetime though.
Joe Carola
Look framer, all I'm trying to point out is that it sometimes it helps to question the way we do things. We should have some mind of our own and not only do things because a set of plans or an engineer tell us to do things a certain way. For example we use to use 1/2 inch plywood for roof decking and if humidity got up the stuff would warp. We started using Makita quickdrive screws on the decking and found it did not slow us down and was a better way hold the plywood. All I'm saying is for some of us we have an opportunity to experiment and try to do things better. I don't think anyone expects us to throw out what works (If it's not broke don't fix it.) But I believe we all need to be open to different methods in order to advance in our trades.
Look framer, all I'm trying to point out is that it sometimes it helps to question the way we do things.
Deliamey,
I already told that I do in my last post to you, especially when it comes to something structural. I always question it when I see something that dont look right. I seen many things change over the years and many conversations about future changes. Screwing houses together instead nails has never once came up in 24+ years. I will not question nails, period.
For example we use to use 1/2 inch plywood for roof decking and if humidity got up the stuff would warp. We started using Makita quick drive screws on the decking and found it did not slow us down and was a better way hold the plywood.
Well, that's good, but I would question the type of plywood your using because I've never seen that happen before. The plywood shouldn't warp. But you fixed the problem your way, that's fine, doesn't mean that you should have to screw down every roof you sheath.
All I'm saying is for some of us we have an opportunity to experiment and try to do things better. I don't think anyone expects us to throw out what works (If it's not broke don't fix it.)
In believe in experimenting and trying to do things better, but like I said, screwing houses together isn't one of them and I will never believe that it should be done in my life time. I will say, "If it ain't broke don't fix it" to screwing a house together.
But I believe we all need to be open to different methods in order to advance in our trades.
Just because I don't believe that screwing houses together makes any sense, doesn't mean that I'm not open to different methods to advance in my trade.
When I started framing, all we used was 1/2" sub-floor and oak floors sat right on top of that. We used underlayment where carpet went. Now all we use is 3/4" t&g glued and nailed with ring-shank nails and that's it.
Joe Carola
Edited 5/10/2008 9:42 pm ET by Framer
Fair enough, I'm not trying to convert anyone to do anything different. I myself frame with nails but I do believe there are some aspects of framing that could be improved with screws. particularly subfloors and roof decking. When using quickdrive screws on subfloors I reduce any chance of squeaking. But more importantly with an extension arm on the quickdrive I reduce back pain from not having to bend over with a framing nailer. Which at this stage in life I'll change any method I can to save my back.
I came from Calif. with all the earthquake requirements to a place with none as far as strapping and shear wall requirements. They all look at me like I'm nuts when I do some of the stuff I'm used to doing for nailing, blocking, etc. I think one place screws would be a better installation is at the connection of hangers or clips to a 2x member. Too many times the hanger nail splits out the lumber and when it shrinks I can almost pull some out by hand.John
unfortuneately they don't meet simpsons requirements without useing simpson screws.
Therefore useing screws are not best because they are not specced for the product used. If you use a gun on the hangers you will eliminate the problem you are talking about. Then try to pull out by hand!
Mike, have you installed some of that sureboard yet? If so, can you describe it? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yes. It is basicly a piece of 5/8"sheetrock or densglass (exterior) with a piece of 20 guage sheetmetal on the back. Similar to the lead lined board used for x-ray rooms etc.
A special screw is used and it must be screwed to specs required. Usually cut with a skillsaw although we try to special order to length for minimal onsite cutting.
It is heavy but not unmanagable. I was surprised to see on their website that it is used on wood framing.
We have used it on a few light guage steel multi-story condo projects similar to those pictured in their website.
I am amazed at the rate this thread is going! As time goes on there is becoming more hybrid construction, blurring the lines between wood and metal construction. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Your information in your last post is the only worthwhile info in the last 400 posts in this thread. I've just been in here harassing Frenchy for fun. Do you know if the product is cost effective or just another "improvement" that does the same thing but cost more? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
By the time we start some of these projects they have been "value engineered" extensively. A lot may have to do with speed of assembly because of labor costs, and everyone knows sheetrockers are faster (and cheaper) than anyone. ; ^ )
As far as I know, these type of buildings were started in the Northwest and are spreading out fast. I suppose if they are not cost effective then they won't last long.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Yeah, steel studs aren't usually nailed together!
use you're own reading skils there frenchy, maybe even put on some glasses, where did I say that you said, anyone MUST use screws.
and you arguement holds for one type of connection, is that the only connection in a home? yeah... didn't think so.
Beyond that, the "screws" that are in that article are not your typical garden variety 3" screw that I would argue most people are talking about
Who is talking about 3" #8 screws?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Do you remember where that thread was posted - or what the subject was about? I missed that one and I'd like to read it.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I do not remember, but if you search under riversongs posts you should be able to find.
What a colossal waste of time. In normal circumstances, house structures to not fail, not are they compromised in any way due to their connections.
To avoid structural failure in catastrophic conditions, like earthquakes or hurricanes, builders would be well advised to follow the specific advice of an engineer - none of whom to my knowledge would tell you the answer is to screw your house together.
fingersand toes.
I've never disagreed with your statement.. except that even the very best strapping methods offered by Simpson connectors fall short of the ultimate potential of properly installed screws..
Test it yourself buy a 3 inch long #12 screw and install it properly
then take a 3 inch long 16 penny nail and install it properly. Leave both a little proud of the board so that you can get a claw hammer under them and measure the amount of force it takes to withdraw the nail now comapare the amount of force required to pry the screw out. go ahead use a crow bar!
Well if we are going to play that game, why do you get the #12 screw and I only get a 16 penny nail?
I want a 4" galv. spiral nail and you can have a 4" #8 screw.
Like I said, a complete waste of time.
By the way, this is nothing personal. I enjoy your posts.
(edit for spelling)
Edited 5/8/2008 11:40 am ET by fingersandtoes
fingersandtoes,
My chaulk, my chaulkboard <grin> another words I set up the test so that flat statements like nails are superior to screws could be easily disproven. I never said I had to play fair did I? <grin>
besides, to properly install a screw requires something few people do.. which is drill a pilot hole, and one for the shank to the proper depth.
Now I did but doing so is extremely time consuming..
All that test will really prove is it's harder to extract a screw than to extract a nail.. I don't doubt most would agree with that statement.. that's not what this conversation is about..
I would wager that a house built with good quality screws in the framing would hang together better in, say, a tornado.
I would wager that a house built with nails in the framing would hang together better and screws would break in half in, say, a tornado.
Joe Carola
"I would wager that a house built with nails in the framing would hang together better and screws would break in half in, say, a tornado."
I'm with you.
I was taught (FWIW!) that while (some) screws are indeed stronger in static shear, the repeated back and forth stress of an earthquake or tornado will cause them to snap, where regular old nails will bend back and forth and deform but keep doing their job.
k
KFC
Not according to forest products lab..
It took 2, 783 pounds to pry a rafter off a top plate with a single improperly installed screw
it takes just 208 pounds to pry a properly toenailed rafter off a top plate..
Pretty well documented stuff. read Framing Roofs, start on page 126 the charts on page 129
Frenchy sez: "It took 2783 pounds to pry a rafter off a top plate... It takes just 208 to pry a toenailed..."
I doubt anyone is debating the axial strength of screws vs. toenails in uplift.
And I will even allow that many screws are stronger in static shear than similar size nails.
My point was that under dynamic shear loading (like eq's, tornados), screws will snap where nails will simply bend.
k
You got any science to back that up, or are you just making it up as you go along?
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Good question. I learned that from an engineering professor at UC Berkeley, but I do not have stats in front of me. I'll try to find the source (in between concrete pours and baby bottles)- your request for science and facts is heartening, and deserves to be honored.
It does stand to reason though, right? Imagine putting a good deck screw and a common nail in a bench vise, with 1/2" standing proud. Then put a vise-grip on each and push them back and forth.
The screw will initially be harder to move (stronger in static shear), but under dynamic shear (back and forth, back and forth, like an eq) it will snap quickly- complete, catstrophic failure. Whereas the nail will deform, but not catastrophically fail.
k
But it should be noted that a nailed joint in shear is apt to fail due to the deformation of the nails and their subsequent withdrawal from the nail holes. Particularly likely in low cycle fatigue scenarios as the nail holes become enlarged. The strength of the fastener is only loosely related to the strength of the joint.The only scenario where I could imagine nails might be superior would be in a shock situation, where all the load is applied in a faction of a second. But even there I doubt it.A simple experiment anyone can do: Nail two 2-foot pieces of 2x4 together at the ends so they make a V. Make another such piece using screws. See how hard it is to make the nailed assembly fail by pressing together the two legs of the V, and do the same with the screwed assembly.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I see what you are saying, but you have set up a false test.
Screws and nails are driven into wood, not steel, so to test out that Dynamic Shear concept the materials applying the forces have to be either wood or shear plate metal (like strapping). Both the wood and metal holding the fasteners plays a big roll in how directly forces are applied to the fastener.
When I was doing my tests awhile back, I found that the nails under severe shear forces seriously deformed the wood holes they were in, greatly reducing their contact (and holding friction) with the wood they were driven into. Basicly they created a curved ramp out of the wood. The harder metal screws on the other hand deformed very little, and the wood kept its integrity for much longer as the shear forces were transfered to the wood along a more evenly distributed face across the length of the screw.
The shear plate metal is also a generally soft metal - similar to nails but much softer than screws. When applying extream shear loads on a 16ga. Simpson strap with a #9 3.5" Phillips Deckmate Square Driv, the strap literally tore while the screw stayed intact. The head was bent over - but that strap was well beyond its own failure point.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I think you're saying the nails have a higher ductility, or are softer and can be bent many more times before they reach their elastic limit and break; and I agree with you on that point if that is what you are saying.
On the other hand, a stiffer formula for the steel that is in a screw, if it is strong enough, is not going to be moving. If anything, the wood will be accommodating the motion by deflecting, flexing, or whatever. It all depends on the strength of the individual screw or nail, which will depend on its size, formulation, and modulus of elasticity (the ability to bend a certain number of times to a certain point without breaking.)
Frankly, even with the help of the scientific and engineering terms and formulas and computer programs, there are so many variables involved in this kind of "science" that even the engineering labs must do testing on specific hardware in specific types of wood to develop tables by empirical experimentation (trial and error). Even then, when you know how a certain screw or nail will hold in, say, douglas fir, or SYP, there is no guarantee because the individual lots and even pieces of lumber will vary, although the hardware will be fairly reliably manufactured.
So I think Frenchy is right and you are right too, and so is everybody else.
KFC
Depends on the screw and the material it's made of.. I'm required to use stainless steel because I am using wood with high tannic acid (white oak and black walnut) hardened 18/8 lag screws are rated for just such application and will be stronger and better retained than the equivlant sized nail.
I will certainly agree that sheetrock screws would fail in such an application since the quality of their content is so low.. there are other screws which might fail as well, however no blanket statement is valid.
Frenchy, Frenchy, Frenchy. This is ridiculous- you're either not paying attention or deliberately mis-interpreting my post. You keep putting up straw men and knocking them down.
No one is debating use of toenails to hold roofs on in hurricanes.
No one is debating if drywall screws are strong.
No one is debating axial strength.
for the third time: I'm discussing static shear vs. dynamic shear. I can explain those terms, if you'd like. And I'm even granting that an average deck screw may well be stronger in static shear than an average common nail. But under dynamic loads like eq's or hurricanes, an average deck screw will fail completely (and catastrophically) where an average nail won't.
If you want to debate any of the last paragraph, I'm game. Otherwise....
k
somebody just tell Frenchy he's right and maybe he'll quit this thread
KFC
I said it very plain.. it depends on the material the screw is made with.
Dynamic shear is a number I'm really familar with ( experiance with race cars provides that background) and can tell you that many nails are not particularly strong in that regard either..
Flat statements like nails are superior to screws is too easily challenged. Clip head nails? Made in China? Are superior to graded screws made In America in that regard?
I'm discussing average deck screws and average common nails of approximately the same diameter, in shear.
Of course there are variances, even in the same box of nails or screws, not to mention in the same sheet of structural plywood. But, average apples to average apples...
k
KFC
Oh, I can agree with that statement right up to the point where we dicuss the metal used to make the screws..
There are screw formulas out there that will allow you in your test to bend the screw back and forth long after the nail has failed.. I'm trying to remember the metalurgy involved but it's stuck at the back of my brain right now.
You may be correct with regard bulk screws found at a hardware store.. That's presicely my point.. Like you admit there are varations.
framer
Not according to tests!
A typical 30 foot roof with 24 properly toenailed rafters would require 4, 992 pounds to come off and a roof with a single lag screw improperly installed per rafter would come off at 66,792 foot pounds.
4,992 versis 66792 13 times weaker! for toenailed rafters!
according to forest products jounal and this magazine..
framer
Not according to tests!
A typical 30 foot roof with 24 properly toenailed rafters would require 4, 992 pounds to come off and a roof with a single lag screw improperly installed per rafter would come off at 66,792 foot pounds.
4,992 versis 66792 13 times weaker! for toenailed rafters!
according to forest products jounal and this magazine..
That's great Frenchy, but it means absolutely nothing with residential framing, nothing at all! Nails are all you need to frame a house, period!
I could care less what forest products and this magazine says also. If screws were required and necessary to frame a house, every house would be designed that way. Forest and this magazine doesn't prove anything compared to the thousands and thousands and thousands of houses built and designed by Architects and Engineer.
If a house should be screwed, than every single Architect and Engineer in this Country should be shot for not specking screws instead of nails.Shame on them for designed code-minimum framing.
Maybe we should start lag bolting the box to every single floor joist, lag bolt headers, top plates, king studs into jacks, doubles for stairwell and fireplace openings, top plates into the bottom of the rafters and ceiling joists, overlapped ceiling joists and floor joists, rafters to ridge.......
Joe Carola
> If screws were required and necessary to frame a house, every house would be designed that way.That's a tautology and proves nothing.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Joe,
You're dancing like a politician! But that doesn't mean we can't use screws if we choose to.
I've established clearly that screws can be superior to nails. , If you are argueing that nails will work I'll agree with that statement. Of course every single poster who has been disagreeing with you has made that statement and you flip it around to saying we're insisting that we are claiming screws must be used..
Massively differant word can be and must be..
if anyone sees a complete house flying through the air in the next tornado it was probably screwed together and NOT tied to the foundation properly
Frenchy, Dorothy and Toto's house........Joe Carola
"if anyone sees a complete house flying through the air in the next tornado it was probably screwed together and NOT tied to the foundation properly"or...it was made with brads and glue. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Saw some mexiframers banging in the screws that come with Simpson holddowns. Couldnt fit a screwgun in the space between the 6x6 and 2x6 so they used their hammer sidewise. Simpson wouldnt provide the screws if it wernt better. OK, thats what they got them approved with. Screws do have good tension strength but shear is going to depend on diameter of the shank and material. We all know "Piffin" aka sheet rock screws aint gonna cut it.
How about these... McFeely's UFO Ballistic Nail Screws. Shoot them in with a gun and take them out with a screw gun.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/BNS-2213/UFO-Ballistic-NailScrewstrade-2-14-x0113-YZ-Phillips
To answer the OP's question: Probably more framing gets done with screws than folks would like to admit. Screws come in handy when dealing with existing framing where pounding a nail can knock loose plaster, etc. (NB: In most cases a power framing nailer will work as well as screws, but many of us don't have a framing nailer, or don't want to haul out the compressor on small jobs if we do.)
Screws also work out well in tight spots. You can often get a drill/driver into a spot where there's no room to swing a hammer, and the drill/driver is probably smaller than your framing nailer.
And of course screws are handy when a joint is under tension and nails would tend to pull out (though this is not normal for framing joints).
The one problem with screws is that your standard deck screw (the screw generally used for framing) is not really standardized in any way, and in particular is not rated for shearing loads. However, you can buy ($$$) "structural" screws that are rated for shear loads and which will outperform any nailing scheme you can invent. (Note that drywall screws are even less standardized than deck screws and generally shouldn't be used for framing since they may be too brittle.)
We always use screws for framing when we're building a wall with 2x10 studs @ 8" OC and six top plates.
Other than that, we almost never use screws in framing.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Anybody use screws instead of nails for framing? "
yeah ...
so far it looks like Paul in Cali, Frenchy ... and Mike Holmes.
so what's that tell ya!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
LOL, that's hitting the screwball on the head
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just don't use bleach on those screws if they get moldy!
Jeff
Always, I mostly do SMALL amounts of frameing. Let's me adjust things easily, and there is no banging going on in the clients home.
I'm a fool for chiming in. . . haven't read the thread.
Spent all day today stick-framing in place in a 90-year old house. Screws are the way to go in that kind of situation, I'd say, and an impact driver sinks 'em nice and quick.
It's silly to use screws if you're framing the wall on the floor. But sometimes I still do, because I'm no framer at all. I don't have an air nailer or good technique with a hammer.
Using screws for production framing is insanity.
Edited 5/7/2008 9:38 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Unless specified very few screws have a good amount of shear strength.(sink a drywall screw halfway into a stud and you can break it right off with your speed square{that's how I clean them off of a remodel wall}) you can't do that with a nail... But I'll agree with Piffin...Awww gawd.. Have fun reading.
All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
"Anybody use screws instead of nails for framing? And I’m not talking about a subfloor, I’m talking about 2x’s."
Yes, I like them because I can whack them in with one lick of my hammer. They won't pass code though, so I can't use them.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
what I think is funny about this whole thread is that the focus seems to be on attaching the rafters/trusses to the top plates & tornadoes/hc/eqs/extremes. What about the roof deck? One opening for the for the wind to enter & pressurize (like a failed garage door) and what's left?
What a waste of energy....
>>> Yes, I like them because I can whack them in with one lick of my hammer. They won't pass code though, so I can't use them.>>>Takes me a couple licks, and then some screws break off anyway. So I just gun in nails instead. It's loads easier to do, and way faster, and cheaper to top it off. I think I'm onto sumpthin!
I have been in the building and reno game for 28years and realized very early on that drywall screws have NO structural strength . they have thin shanks and smooth backs on the heads of the screw as not to tear the paper. course threads for wood and fine thread for steel studs. when I do frame with screws I use green coated screws meant for pressure treated lumber. and if im lucky I get the ones that have cutters on the backs of the heads like a particle board screw A good hitachi coil framing nailer and compressor works best for large jobs