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Discussion Forum

screws for lap cedar siding?

chrisjohns | Posted in General Discussion on September 27, 2006 05:20am

anyone think using small stainless steel deck screws would work to hold vertical lap cedar siding when the sheathing is 1/2″ CDX? 

the general recommendation is to use galvanized or ss nails into 1-1/2″ minimum solid wood every 2 vertical feet.  for 8″ wide boards, two nails per board at each elevation spaced horizontally 3″, none in laps.

would the ss screws work in 1/2″ CDX?  has anyone seen anything like that done?  the smooth shank portion of the screw would rest in the cedar (no thread in the cedar).

I don’t want to block every two feet.  pacific nw. thoughts?

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Replies

  1. davidmeiland | Sep 27, 2006 05:28pm | #1

    There are various types of trim-head SS screws that would work reasonably well... but why isn't there a stud every 16 or 24 inches for you to nail into?

    1. chrisjohns | Sep 27, 2006 05:45pm | #2

      vertical siding.  need to add blocking if the nails will hit solid wood.

      i wonder if narrow head quality ss screws will hold the cedar on exposed sides of the house.  they'd only need be 1 1/2", with 5/8" smooth shank so as not to be engaged with the cedar.

      1. davidmeiland | Sep 27, 2006 05:49pm | #3

        My feeling is that trim screws secure the siding pretty well, but they don't do as much to pull it tight where needed. I put vertical board and batten on my shop and we ran horizontal blocking so as to have nailing. It didn't take that long, but it was new construction will all walls open and no wire or pipe. Deck screws would pull the siding tighter but those are big heads and would be ugly on sidewalls in my opinion.

        1. chrisjohns | Sep 27, 2006 06:08pm | #5

          I was hoping to avoid blocking, either inside the walls (I'm stripping the walls to the studs inside and out) or outside with furring strips. 

          i'm wondering if screws into 1/2" CDX would hold the siding down over time.

          thinking that strips of 2 ply 30# felt would provide adequate circulation behind the siding.

          I was thinking about the composite type screws with the small heads.

          1. User avater
            BruceT999 | Sep 29, 2006 05:02am | #16

            Trim-head galvanized screws (ss is only necessary for use with PT lumber, I think) run in at a 60 degree upward angle into your 1/2" sheathing should hold very well and would not provide a path for water to migrate inside. They come with star bit for good control. With vertical lapped siding, I would definitely want to run a thick bead of caulk in each joint before putting the next board on.BruceT

  2. User avater
    BillHartmann | Sep 27, 2006 05:55pm | #4

    Are you talking about board and batten siding?

    Lap siding one row is lapped over the row below.

    I don't think that there is just a thing as "vertical lap" siding.

    1. Piffin | Sep 28, 2006 12:57am | #6

      There is, but not because it's a good idea. It lets too much water in the lap 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

    2. chrisjohns | Sep 28, 2006 02:34am | #7

      The house was sided with lap or channel siding since 1972, although it is likely two of the sides were re-sided since they had different and counter intuitive choices of nails used.  The weather sides had nails of about 15 gage that were pushed out.  The other sides had galvanized nails of something like .10" diameter.

      The boards may have been coated on the exposed side but do not appear to have been coated on the inside.

      http://www.wrcla.org/pdf/WRCLA_Installing_Siding.pdf#search=%22cedar%20siding%20installation%22

      ...shows channel siding installed vertically.  It is a style thing, but, I guessed that veritical would drain better than horizontal...but with Piffin's 2 cents, I should revisit the idea.

      okay, i revisited it and think water will get held up more on the horizontal edges when the boards are run horizontal.  when run vertical, with the "groove" pointed away from the predominant weather direction and the boards are properly face nailed or screwed ...

      ...vertical may perform better than horizontal.  but i'm not sure either does very well.  34 years isn't too bad and I will treat these board with two coats of Penofiin prior to putting them up....

      the old trim, even when painted (but not maintained) rotted on the top sides when drip edge was not installed.

      1. Piffin | Sep 28, 2006 03:37am | #8

        Intuitively, I would also asssume thaat vertical would shed water better.But the facts are tht it doesn't. Think about it more - for water to penetrat horizontal lap siding, it ihas to run uphill against aa prssurized lap, disregrding knots or but ends. But with vertical, water only needs to weep sideways 1/2" or so. It happens regulaarly. I would not build B&B or vertical without a very well planned rainscreen system 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. chrisjohns | Sep 28, 2006 04:14am | #9

          okay, that makes sense that the water would seep/get drawn into the vertical seems more readily.  so Dave's point about pulling the wood in tight is important to get the best possible for the desire repeat of the old style.  good ring shanks into blocking makes the best sense if I' going to repeat this mistake.

          ASTM 30# felt, Grace Ice and Water around all openings and openings to flanges, corners, and top, siding to barrier1/8" gap set with two ply 2" wide intermittantly broken strips of felt, every 2 feet vertically.

          that is my half baked rain screen so far.  got to start this weekend. 

          i did j metal flanges around the windows and doors on my last structure (guest house/boat house/shop).  but prolly not this time.  too late in the season (the worst reason).

          Edited 9/27/2006 9:19 pm ET by chrisjohns

          1. GOLDENBOY | Sep 30, 2006 02:50am | #25

            I think rainscreen refers to a system which provides a vented airspace behind the siding.  This is used mostly in wet climates. 

            I do not like the idea of vertical siding.  Water will get in.  If lapped horizontally it does not.  Have you thought of running it horizontally?  I think it would solve all your problems/concerns.  Don't forget to caulk any horizontal joints.

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Sep 28, 2006 06:59am | #10

        I see the confusion.Now I may be alone in this, but I see two basic classifications of horizonatal siding.LAP and DROP.Drop - all of the siding is one plane. That includes T&G and rabbeted pattern (channel). Within these there are several patterns with beads and the like.Lap - Where the top board angles out over the one below. That includes plain flat boards, beveled boards, and rabbited bevel siding.

        1. User avater
          BruceT999 | Sep 29, 2006 05:06am | #17

          Where do you classify ship lap in that scheme?BruceT

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Sep 29, 2006 07:40am | #19

            DropThe only difference between ship lap and channel is the realative size of the laps.Then you have ones like v-rustic that that is ship-lapped, but with a profile.http://www.tinytimbers.com/pdf_gallery/wwpa_patterns.pdf

  3. Crabby1 | Sep 28, 2006 07:04am | #11

    The danger in using screws is with constant flexing of the timber the screw will eventually snap at the first thread next to the shank regardless of what the metal is. you dont have the same problem with galvanised nails as they have no thread.

    1. Stray | Sep 28, 2006 04:29pm | #12

      I'm also reading this thinking that drawing the board in tight with screws (with their nice bugle "wedge" shape) could run the risk of splitting cedar.  Cedar spits if you just look at it funny. 

      Nails don't have that problem because they have a flat head tha pushes the siding to the house, like a washer.

      I'd at least try screwing your particular sideing tight on a sample and see if you have a problem with splitting.Ithaca, NY  "10 square miles, surrounded by reality"

      1. Piffin | Sep 29, 2006 02:31am | #13

        good point 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  4. User avater
    artacoma | Sep 29, 2006 04:31am | #14

    About 20 years ago I did it with hot dipped galvys and it still looks great except for the side with a sunny exposure, about 1/4 of the boards fell off in 3 or 4 years and the wall was redone with stucco.

    put in the blocks

    regards

    Rik

    1. chrisjohns | Sep 29, 2006 08:43am | #20

      The blocking is going in, thanks.  It is noteworthy that old siding on the house is the same product form that I'm putting on. 

      On of the advantages I'm going to employ is to use kiln dried product that can have a chance to come to equilibrium with the atmospheric conditions.  I'll coat it with a couple of coats of Penofin.

      Did you use a green, dry, or kiln dried product?  What dimensions?  Did you use a coating on it?  Oil? 

      I've got salt air to contend with, and have seen how galvanized nails and 15 gage nails corrode.  I suppose the streaking is not really a bad look and could be made into weathering nail art! 

      thanks.

  5. MikeCallahan | Sep 29, 2006 04:33am | #15

    Here is what I would do. Block the walls with blocks laid flat at 24"OC.
    Use a coil Nailer like the Hitachi with 2" ring shank stainless nails.
    With nice cedar pre primed costing as much as 2.50/ linear FT, it is worth the extra effort to keep it tight to the wall.

    Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
    1. chrisjohns | Sep 29, 2006 08:47am | #21

      thanks!

  6. RedfordHenry | Sep 29, 2006 05:52am | #18

    My thoughts on vertical siding are that it's a great for outbuildings the desert southwest.  That said, I have seen plenty of it here in New England, mostly shiplap pine, but also some cedar T&G.  It seems to have been the siding of choice on many contemporary houses that were built during the late 60's through early 80's, and of course on many barns and outbuildings as the shiplap pine is abundant and relatively inexpensive.  I've replaced a lot of it.  Most of the houses that I've seen it on have stick frames with no additional blocking.  Almost always with 1/2" CDX sheathing.  Without horizontal blocking, the most succesful nailing seems to be hot dipped, spiral shank siding nails, nailed about every 2' on both edges of the board.  I've only seen them in one length which is about 2".  As long as the sheathing is sound, these nails DO NOT pop out.  They have a smallish head, a bit larger than a finish nail but smaller than a common.  With the roughness of the zinc coating and the spiral shank, they really suck the board into the sheathing and hold it there, much better than any ring-shanked stainless siding nail.

    1. chrisjohns | Sep 29, 2006 08:54am | #22

      Spiral shanks are not very common out here.  I used them for some 2x6 T&G siding recently (nailed into blocking).  Not sure why they are not used much out here.  Thanks for the good idea.  My guess is they cannot be shot from a gun and that is why they are out of favor here.

      mine is a 1972 contemporary designed house so this style of siding, well unlikely to last more than 20-30, suits it well.

      1. davidmeiland | Sep 29, 2006 05:29pm | #23

        Just noticed you're in WA.... whereabouts?

        1. chrisjohns | Sep 29, 2006 11:17pm | #24

          tac. at the narrows.

          Edited 9/29/2006 4:18 pm ET by chrisjohns

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