Screws or Nails – Installing a Door Jamb
DavidAndersen
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’ve got an exterior door and 2 sidelights in a frame that is about 83″ wide and 86″ tall with a 5″ jamb depth. Does it make any significant difference if I use screws (stainless or decking screws) instead of nails to attach the jamb to the studs? I typically like to use screws when I can so I can more easily back out of a mistake.
Thanks.
David in Iowa
Replies
1 vote screws
David. I lived in Iowa most of my life and I have always used screws (typical deck screws) to install exterior door jambs. My technique has been to pull out the weather strip and install the screw in the area where it will be covered by the weatherstrip when you stick it back in. this way you don't need to mess around with lots of putty 'n stuff, and if you ever have to come back and tweak the door, it's pretty easy. Most of my compatriots in Iowa thought I was off my rocker because I was doing it differently than how it's always been done.
"You're s'posed to use nails!"
"Why?"
Because that's how it's always been done!"
I just recently moved to Florida, and have discovered that it is actually required by the building code here that you must use screws when installing exterior doors.
Screw my friend! Screw til your heart's content!
By the way, what part of Iowa do you live in? Maybe we were neighbors.
I recently moved
Cedar Rapids, Mark. I also lived in Ames for 5 years. Thanks for the information. Screws seem so much easier. The only drawback I've found is that the screws do not allow the frame to move when tapping in shims. At least some of them need to be released from the studs in order for that to happen.
Oops! I didn't notice the part about ther being double skylights. Neverthless I still use screws . I like the counterbore and plugs idea, But, if that is too involved or scarey for you, I would recommend finish head screws. Then just putty the holes with color putty just like you would a nail hole.
Make sure you get screws into the top jamb at each corner of the actual door. You'd be suprised how much flex there is at those points where the sidelights are attached to the door. Some people are somewhat reluctant to attatch to headers. If this is the case with you, I have in the past attatched a ripped down 1x6 across the top of the assembly to add strength .
By the way neighbor... I'm from Iowa City. Glad ta meetchya!
I'm pretty sure you can buy finish screws at Puckett tool 'n fastners over on first avenue by 380. If they don't have them ( they used too, years ago) drive down to Iowa City, and go to Kel-Welco on S. Gilbert street" If I were a carpenter"
People are reluctant to screw into headers because shrinkage can distort the jamb.Lignum est bonum.
Speaking of shrinkage, I was walking out of the water at the nude beach the other day....
Sorry, Couldn't resist." If I were a carpenter"
I always set heavy doors w/ nails then finish up w/ screws. I guess when I install the door I picture it getting slammed alot and think the screws will help hold it better.
Edited 11/14/2005 10:29 pm ET by MSA1
I'll vote for screws also
I like to use one screw per hinge into the framing on the hinge side and like the other poster, in back of the weatherstripping on the strike side.
that said with 2 side lites it ain't gonna happen :)
I'd still use screws, is the interior painted or stain/finished?
Stained on both sides.
I would get a piece of the same type of wood and a plug cutter, countersink the screws, plug them, then finish it.
The hole's should be pretty darn hard to see.
If you used a dowel to plug the holes the end grain on the dowel will show up a lot more.
I agree with using screws for adjustability and reversibility in the advent of an error. However I don't like to use plugs on the exterior side of a door. I've found the extra weather exposure typically causes them to move and pop eventually. Inside is fine, and use a plug cutter as you say. Lignum est bonum.
I was asz-uming the screws would be on the interior :)
Screws it is.
And in FL you don't get to hide behind the weather stripping. The inspectors want the screws to be in the fat part of the jamb not in the rabbet. Including the head jamb and the threshold.
Also required is a manufacturers installation diagram, based on the required, approved testing of like components. Follow the diagram, to the inch, or do it again.
Also two screws per hinge leaf into the framing.
Can't overlook the R/O either. Absolute max of 1/4" all around or pull it out and put in solid blocking/shim material and start over.
Almost forgot. Certain products, such as doors, windows, shingles, anchors, etc., have a state product approval code, as well as limitations of use notations. These product approval codes and therefore, all the products affected, must be provided to the plans examiner before a permit will be issued. If, in the middle of a job, a door spec is changed, the permit must be revised with a new product approval code submission. Permits can only be revised IN PERSON.
And in FL you don't get to hide behind the weather stripping
Ralph- You should start a new thread on Florida building code differences. Many of us would find it informative and propably start putting it into use.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Nails!! - from a 15 ga finish nailer first through the brick mold and then through shims on the jambs. Easiest way to "get it right. Then maybe 2 screws on each side jamb to anchor it the rest of the way. As long as it's got sidelights, maybe 1 or 2 on top. The problem with starting with screws is that if you run them down 1 turn too tight, it pulls the whole thing out of wack. With a nailer, hold in place and bam bam!! - then repeat. Much easier and better results.
Right now I've got a monster... 8'x3-0 with sidelights and a transom. 3/4 glass on the door. Took 5 guys to get it in the hole... My normal "test fit" method got vetoed in a hurry!!!
Using only 15ga nails to secure an exterior door is lame at best.
You don't need to drive the screw's all the way home when you first install it, just leave them a little shy, shim tight, then drive the screw home.
If you're suggesting installing a door that takes 5 guys to get it into a hole with 15ga nails and "maybe 2 screws on each side jamb to anchor it the rest of the way" something is wrong
>> Using only 15ga nails to secure an exterior door is lame at best. <<
That is not what I said, is it?
>> If you're suggesting installing a door that takes 5 guys to get it into a hole with 15ga nails and "maybe 2 screws on each side jamb to anchor it the rest of the way" something is wrong <<
The big door assembly installation was augmented with 16p gal casing nails. The long screws in the hindges were not an option since it is a double sidielite unit.
Edited 11/15/2005 7:06 am ET by Matt
Matt, I used to nail 15g 2 1/2" trim nails through brickmold. Nailed one door up from the house to the garage, came back back next day and wondered why the contractor had laid the door on the garage floor<G>...he didn't, the wind blew it out......and, don't pay any attention to the whippersnapper...he knows a lot more than he thinks he does<G> What in the gosh darn golly have you done to Rez?
dare we discuss PT decking *G*
oh, and btw, I'd like our coach back now....
Edited 11/17/2005 6:50 pm ET by CAGIV
Ya know, I'm not trying to be insulting, but there are a lot of folks here who actually do this well for a living. Oh yeah, they've been doing it for a long time, too. Matt is one of those. You're not. Learn when to bow out.As far as coaches...hey Roy is our boy now, but sure gotta thank youse for givin' him the experience he needed. Hey, when he went to Kansasa, I pulled for him, as long as he wasn't playing the Heels<G> Still hard to believe he pulled it off with Matt's team...but, I bet it isn't long before he does it again...Folks that are older than your parents have probably figured out ways to kick your butt without you ever seeing it coming...you better pay us off now<G> What in the gosh darn golly have you done to Rez?
bitter?
Yeah, several years back we bought a door to replace our front door. The instructions said to nail it through the brick mold, then just long screws in the hinges and latch plate.I did it with casing nails through the jamb, IIRC. Couldn't have done the brick mold thing if I wanted to since on a retrofit we had to remove the brick mold while installing, then rip it to fit before putting it back.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
The good news is we really do "overbuild" in this country. And that is good. Case in point: I just did a garage service door replacement and when I took the original door out it had been secured with one 6d nail mid jamb height in each side! That was it, 60 years that door had been in use and still as true as could be. 2 nails!!!!
O'B
Minneapolis
Matt,
Although I think screws are better because they're adjustable and reversible, nails certainly worked before cordless drill made screws the fastener of choice. However, I would never use gun nails to initially set the door in place since they are driven below the brickmould surface and thus very difficult to remove or reverse if adjustments are needed.
Drill pilot holes though the jamb - concealed locations if possible - and then 3 1/4" finish nails into the framing, shim to perfect fit and THEN go ahead and use the gun to secure the brickmould. If you don't secure solidly through the jambs, the door won't be nearly as stable and resistant to forced entry, especially at the latch area.Lignum est bonum.
If you are going to use screws, use the Phillips Deck Mate Square Drive screws. The #9 3.5" is darn near indestructable. You might also look at the screws from http://www.mcfeelys.com. Try to use screws larger than #8 if you can manage it.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
#10 x 3" screws through rabbet behind weatherstrip. Through the shims. 3/16" pilot hole in jamb. 15 ga. x 2 1/2" nails through brick mould into jamb and trimmers.
I vote for nails. I just got done installing all the doors in my house & I used screws (mainly because they were easier to back out in the event of an error), however, I found that it's next to impossible to adjust the frame with shims while the screws are embedded in the studs even partially.
It seemed to work much better with finish nails partially driven until everything is shimmed up & then driver them home. As for strength, one poster said he liked screws because of the door slamming & such. However, that would be more of a test on the fasteners sheer strength than its resistance to pull out. Nails tend to have more sheer resistance than screws.
Use longer screws, with a sufficiently long smooth region below the head.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I found that it's next to impossible to adjust the frame with shims while the screws are embedded in the studs even partially.
shim first......then apply screw...
What do you use to keep the door frame from falling out while you shim?
"Pinch it" with shims at the two top corners . don't shove them in so hard that they bow the head jamb, just enough to hold it in place while you are doing your shimming." If I were a carpenter"
I guess I still don't get it. What keeps the door in place while you go around to put the shims in?
Don't you have to fasten the door in some way before you can go around & shim it? I guess it doesn't matter if you have a helper on the other side, but what do you do when your alone?
I drive a couple of nails partially through the jamb into the framing to hold it, then go around & shim it. Onces it's square, I drive the nails the rest of the way & place a few more for good measure.
Finally, I put put some long screws through the hinges into the frame.
Read my post above. After installing doors for a number of years that is the best combination of a quick install and a solid end result. I used to do the thing with the partially driven nails/screws, but after a while I relized that spending 1/2 hr or 45 min per door was just a waste of time. Now somebody will criticize my methods (again), but it works great for me. Don't et me wrong, I feel that it is essential that expecially exterior doors are installed perfectly plumb, etc, so that they seal perfectly, and they need to be anchored well to stay that way, but unfortinately I have limited time on this earth.
"Go around"?
I guess I don't know what you're saying. I stand on one side of the door, stick a couple of shims in between the jamb and the framing at the two top corners, shove them tight until the door is held securely, then go to town on it.
I've never had a helper, except for when I've occaisionally been asked to train a new guy.
One thing I have learned after more than two decades in this business is that there are as many ways to install a door as there are carpenters. Some methods are better than others, but in the end, it comes down to whatever works best for you.
There have been many times when I was sure I had the best, most efficient, most effective, fastest method, and then I read something in this forum, or saw another carp. do something different, or just had an epiphany, and said to myself, "That's a better way" ! Many times I have dropped my preffered methodology in exchange for a better way. I'm certain I will probably keep changing and honing my technique.
Mr. miagi said: "Man with closed mind, never learn"" If I were a carpenter"
I'm just going by the installation instructions that came with my doors (thermatru).
They have you place the door into the opening from the outside, drive nails or screws in part way, go around to the inside (through another openning) & shim the door until it's in straight (I don't know how you'd shim it from the outside unless you removed the brick molding first), go back drive everything home, open the door & screw the hinges to the framing.
I'm definitely not claming to know the best way, I'm building my first house. I was just trying to figure out what you were saying.
Sometimes I will tack the brickmould with two nails but I really don't like to nail through the brickmould. I usually do everything from the inside. Unless I need to get the door centered between something that's on the outside, then I start out there and do the tack thing." If I were a carpenter"
Every door jamb is different. When I was young I was taught to nail them. When I got older I learned to screw them. Hanging new doors is a natural, with old doors it's always a Caesarean.
(them doors will soon be a'hangin' out there!)
I have to agree, I always set doors with screws. Usually get the door set tack with finish nails the screw away.
Definitely screws, preferably countersunk. you can use the to pinch or release the shims to exactly where you want them.
Edited 11/17/2005 10:23 am ET by nag champa