Replies

1. 
   JCarroll38 | Sep 26, 2002 10:46pm | #1

   Chad, For that countertop I would make a template out of thin strips of plywood. Along each of the three walls, scribe-fit a strip. Then hot-glue or screw the pieces together to make the template. When you're satisfied with the fit of the template, use it to mark the countertop. --JC

1. 
   Mongo | Sep 27, 2002 06:37am | #4

   I use John's method when forming molds for concrete countertops. They need to be spot-on the first time...and they are.

1. 
   JCarroll38 | Sep 27, 2002 01:59pm | #5

   Mongo, I learned that technique from a friend who specializes in granite and marble fabrication and installation. He has a commercial-grade glue gun (often used to assemble factory-built cabinets), which produces very strong glue joints. His templates have to be accurate and they are. JC

1. 
   Mongo | Sep 27, 2002 02:37pm | #6

   One other tidbit in addition to the info posted by others...

   It's probably common-sense, but consider back-beveling one or more of the edges. The thicker your countertop is, the more important back beveling is to allow the slab to be lowered into place without the opposing top/bottom edges of the countertop chewing up the side walls.

   It may be intuitive, however, just in case...if you decide to back-bevel the sides of your countertop, have the bevel die out as you approach the front edge of the slab so the front edge maintains its crisp 90-degree edge when viewed from the front.

   John, that monster glue gun sounds like a handy tool!

2. 
   andybuildz | Sep 27, 2002 02:40pm | #7

   John

         Your method is the best. I've installed dozens of counters and seen Granite fabricators install them and they do it you way....I found a hot glue gun that uses polyurethane glue sticks of different drying times and strengths..Costs about a hundred bucks......I think I just may order it....Most hot glue guns are kinda cheesy if you ask me

   Be well

              Namaste'

                             AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   FDNA49 | Sep 27, 2002 05:18pm | #8

   thank you all for your assistance!  I had seen the template method done, but forgot about it. What other scribing tricks can we share?

2. 
   kusterer | Sep 27, 2002 08:39pm | #9

   Tick-stripping. My cousin showed me this one he uses for bulkheads or cabinet ends in boats. I have done it a few times and it works like a dream for cutting really complex shapes without even making a pattern first. Get a scrap rectangle (no need for it to be a precise shape)that fits in the space. Cut a piece of trim or anything straight, long enough to reach from about the middle of the rectangle to the farthest point. Cut one end on an angle so it comes to a point. This is the "tick strip." Tack the scrap rectangle into the space. (If the plane you are making is out in space, no sub-layer to put it on, you'll have to put in a temporary x-brace to tack the rectangle to.) Lay the tick strip anywhere on the rectangle and push its pointed end to an angle or change of direction on the perimeter of the panel you are measuring. Draw the pencil along the tick strip on the rectangle and mark the tick strip's end. Repeat for every significant nook, cranny, or bump, and periodically along every curve. Obviously, it's important that the rectangle not move until all the marks are made. Now, put the rectangle on the stock, place the tick strip on every marked line, and mark the stock each place where the tick strip point ends. Connect the dots. Cut. Voila!

   This may be old hat to old pros. I guess cabinetmakers and boat builders know about it, but every carp I've ever done it in front of was as blown away as I was when I first saw it.

   Hope the explanation works. I don't have (or don't know how to use what I do have) any software to make the neat little drawings that some of you all make.

3. 
   Mongo | Sep 27, 2002 11:39pm | #10

   I've used that to cut out trapezoidal shapes for sheathing small bump-outs with hip roofs.

   It is a great technique. Simple and effective.

4. 
   Snort | Sep 28, 2002 12:23am | #11

   Ticksticking FHB #20 pg 49...works great for things like bay window seats, places where yer dealing with straight lines...countertops have to fit to curviliscious sheetrock...1/4" ply templates scribed to fit, as John mentions, hot glued with a craft cheapo gun will work...I've got a Stanley 20 bucker (I'll be glad to part with it for a 100, though) that can be unplugged for 20 minuits (twenty mins) and still keep the glue flowing...push the 1/4" ply to the wall, run a pencil perpendicularly down the wall, belt sand or angle grind 'til you get a tight fit for all 3 pcs , then do like the rest of these yahoos have said;-) It's okay, I can fix it!

5. 
   kusterer | Sep 28, 2002 03:23am | #12

   I've been reading FHB off and on since #1 but I must have missed #20. Shoulda known that a trick so useful would have been covered by now though. Thanks for the reference.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 26, 2002 11:04pm | #2

   There is usually some mention of it in the books on finish carpentry and ones about builtins. Usuualy not much, just a couple of pages.

   one way to scribe a closed area like your is to make an offset pattern.

   Cut a template or pattern about 1/2" smaller than the area.Then make a gauge block that will hold a pencil 1" from the wall. Then use that gauge block to make a pattern 1" smaller than the area.

   Then attach the pattern to your finished top, but reverse the guage block. That will mark the top with the exact size that you need.

3. 
   DCassII | Sep 27, 2002 05:35am | #3

   Scribing is easier with two or three tools, all worth less than the cost of a good six-pack.

   General scribes are about two dollars.  Buy two pairs. 

   Bend the pointy leg 90 degrees on one set, keep the other stock.

   Make a bigger scribe by buying an old flea market compass/divider and heating and bending one leg so your extension is about 1 1/4".

   Keep the scribe at 90 degrees to whatever you are scribing.  If you tilt the scribes, you mark stuff in the wrong place, and you'll cut it threee times and it will be too short.

   A really handy thing (and a cool tool, too) is the Collins coping foot.  Makes scribing boards easier sometimes.

   DC

   And as for the countertop, John Carrol is right on the money.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 9/26/2002 10:46:11 PM ET by DCASSII

1. 
   jeffvermont | Sep 29, 2002 01:18am | #15

   Any chance you could post a few pics of your various contraptions, I just can't see in my mind's eye how the divider/heating bending thing works.

   Thanks,

   Jeff

1. 
   DCassII | Oct 02, 2002 04:05am | #24

   OK, I'll try.  I've never sent a photo before, so it may or may not work

   How about that, it worked.  On the left is the bent scribe, other is the stock General scribe.

   Collins coping foot is on the web somewhere.  I found mine at a trade show.  If I can find a link I'll post ithttp://www.collinstool.com/collins_coping_foot.htm

   Edited 10/1/2002 9:33:59 PM ET by DCASSII

   Edited 10/1/2002 9:36:08 PM ET by DCASSII

   
1. 
   jeffvermont | Oct 02, 2002 11:20pm | #26

   Thanks for taking the time to post the photo of the bent scribe.  Much appreciated.

   Jeff

1. 
   DCassII | Oct 04, 2002 05:15am | #27

   Glad to help.  Plus, I learned how to use the digital camera, make a file of a picture, and how to post it.

   The bent scribe is great for when you have to fit up against stone.  Sometimes the stone is out in front of where the board has to go.  The bent leg gets you in behind the stone.

   DC

2. 
   JohnSprung | Oct 05, 2002 02:07am | #30

   Digital cameras may be another way to skin this one.  I haven't tried this yet, but how about....

   Lay a couple of yard sticks for reference on the plane in which the material will be fitted.  Shoot a digital picture including the boundaries and the sticks, with the camera parallel to that plane.  Transfer the picture to a laptop, and use an LCD projector to project it on the material.  Lay the yardsticks in place to line it up. 

   This would be cumbersome and expensive with existing off the shelf equipment, but perhaps in the future it might turn into something practical.

   -- J.S.

3. 
   DCassII | Oct 06, 2002 03:13pm | #32

   Wife is a drafter in a fairly up-to-date office.  They have this zillion dollar plotter that from time to time goes out of adjustment.  It prints things out of scale by a considerable amount when this happens. 

   Probably best to keep it simple.

   I learned a long time ago to not measure if you don't have to; this is a similar instance.  Sounds like the potential to introduce error is greater, plus more steps means more steps to add errors.

4. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 06, 2002 05:02pm | #33

   With in the last year I saw on one of the Home Improvement shows that they did just that. I forgot the details, but the basically photographed the area and had the generate a template (or directly cut out the material).

5. 
   pm22 | Oct 07, 2002 05:26am | #34

   John,

   The name of this technique is photogrammetry.

   -Peter

   Give me some slacks here.

2. 
   larryscabnuts | Oct 04, 2002 08:00am | #28

   Where ya get the general scribe? I lost my last one and can't find them locally......

1. 
   MisterT | Oct 04, 2002 01:30pm | #29

   An old time boat builder I met in Maine used a custom "tick stick" made from a piece of sheet metal. It looked like a half of a curved lightning bolt with numbers stamped on the "teeth" so he could make sure he was putting it back on the pattern the same way.

   When I have to tick stick I use the blade from my bevel square (removed from the handle).

   TDo not try this at home!

   I am a trained professional!

2. 
   DCassII | Oct 06, 2002 03:09pm | #31

   Homer Depot last time I was there had a pile of them.  I bought a half-dozen because they get lost from time to time.  They are getting harder to find.

   Like the tick stick.

   DC

3. 
   MrPita2 | Oct 09, 2002 07:47pm | #36

   I think the Grizzly catalog has the generic scribe/compass.  I'm not sure which, but I know one of the tool catalogues has 'em.  Grizzly springs to mind, so I'll trust the memory for now.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.

4. 
   larryscabnuts | Sep 28, 2002 06:59am | #13

   Yep! Template it. I use full sized templated from 1/4 " plywood (25"). I then scribe the plywood to the walls then I tempate it to the counter top. If you have any corners 'IN' or 'OUT' square have the counter top shop built the top accordingly. I have a 4'X8' square I made from plywood to check for in or out square. It folds up for carrying in the truck.

1. 
   gbwood | Sep 28, 2002 02:26pm | #14

   another trick for squeezing wall to wall counters in without damaging walls is to have a chunk of thin sheet metal wider than your countertop by about a foot or so, & use it as a shield between drywall & counter to slide your counter into place with 

5. 
   Bruce | Sep 29, 2002 03:48am | #16

   Haven't seen this one in the replies so far.  This works especially well if the vertical surface you're scribing to is uneven ...

   For your 3-sided top, cut out a piece of kraft paper, or similar, that's about 2" or so smaller along the 3 scribe edges.  Lay it in place and tape it down a couple of places keep it from moving. 

   Take a compass, with the pencil side on the paper, and scribe carefully along the 3 sides, keeping the two compass points in a line perpendicular to the vertical surface.

   Now tape your template to your finish material, turn the compass around so the pointy end is on the pencil line, and trace a pencil line onto your finish material.  You need to be sure the compass hasn't changed size during this whole operation, obviously.

   If you did this carefully, your finished top should be an excellent fit.  This is also a great technique for scribing sheet vinyl in a smaller room, say a laundry, bathroom, or small kitchen.  

1. 
   r_ignacki | Sep 29, 2002 05:51pm | #17

   slickest countertop templating ticknique I've seen is a clear sheet pvc something I saw one guy do. First, the guy stretches tape over the dw, sink, and range spaces, that keeps the material from sagging in those spaces.  "Snip... Snip... " ..cuts it to fit, writes some notes down on it, then the best part.. he just rolls it right up, tuck's it under his arm, and goes on to the next job.# # # #   # # # ,  # # #--# # # # !

1. 
   gordsco | Sep 29, 2002 06:27pm | #18

   I agree, but the stuff I've seen used is a thin uncorregated cardboad. Granite countertops are all the rage in the homes I've been working. The template guy lays out these 2'x4' sheets, cuts to fit, and tapes pieces together to fit inside, outside corners etc. He rolls the whole thing up. When the granite arrives it fits like a glove.

   sometimes board sometimes knot 

   gordsco

1. 
   PhilEves | Sep 29, 2002 06:49pm | #19

   "offset",kraft',one inch block....

   you're smilin' if you're spilin'...

   which is a boatbuilding term for the same thing, it works great,I use it to place ply-forms and irregular shapes on floors,walls and boat interiors.If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..

1. 
   Bruce | Oct 01, 2002 06:04am | #22

   If we want to split hairs just a bit finer, spiling usually refers to fitting planks on a wooden boat, while scribing applies more to fitting bulkheads and accommodations.

2. 
   gordsco | Oct 01, 2002 08:00am | #23

   What ever happened to the good old uncomplicated take a little off here a little off there technique? Usually fits pretty good by the third or fifth try.

   sometimes board sometimes knot

3. 
   DCassII | Oct 02, 2002 04:39am | #25

   The big scribes (what you make when you bend the leg of the divider) are a lot like the left side picture, only bigger.

2. 
   NotChuck | Oct 07, 2002 04:22pm | #35

   We usually use the cardboard template trick for these situations, use large enough pieces so the form is not distorted when transferring to the counter top(usually plenty of kitchen cabinet boxes around at this point to flatten and use), seems to always be right the first time this way.SUGARLOAF WOODWORKING

   Architectural Woodworking & Quality Restoration of Older Homes

   "Anything is Possible"

    

2. 
   jeffvermont | Oct 01, 2002 03:28am | #20

   Your tip for scribing was the most useful thing that I learned today.  Great idea about the kraft paper and reversing the scribe!

1. 
   Qtrmeg | Oct 01, 2002 03:45am | #21

   I rather liked message 23512.10 , and a bit of this and that from almost all of the posts.

   The one thing you might want to try from the post that you liked is to use a framing square instead of dividers, or anything that is handy, to transfer the outside dimension to the template. Free handing dividers off of the template might lead to a little error, by the time you cut you may multiply that error.

   Just a thought.