I’ve been framing houses for 12 years, 6 on my own and i finally ran into my first scumbag builder. I’d heard all the horror stories but I was always paid in full and usually right on time or even in advance.
Well, not this time.
We’ve been really slow work-wise lately, so we low-bid an 800sq ft addition with 5 different wall heights, 6 different roof pitches, and 6 hip roofs along with 3 cathedral dormers and steel tie rods holding the roof together. It was extremely complex but it came out 9.9 out of 10 quality-wise.. It came out so good, the architect came by when we were finishing up and said our building looked better than he could have even imagined. That really made us feel good because we never get the recognition we feel we deserve as framers. We’ll frame a 5,000 sq ft house and at the end we get “gee, took you long enough”. We’ve never even failed a frame inspection once except for a piece of missing fire blocking.
All we seem to hear is “your price is/was too high and the project went/is going too slow.” No matter what happens, the customers/builders want a low bid and the project done in 2 days. But I’m rambling now…back to the story.
So, this GC on this job gave us our deposit, and our first three payments off the draw schedule came on time. Then the fun began.
The next 3 payments were annoyingly late, sometimes by 4 weeks, which wouldn’t have been too bad if we’d bid the job correctly; but we hadn’t. We had beaten out 3 or 4 other framers and the high bid was $45,000; ours was $26,000. Yeah, ouch.
To make matters worse, the homeowner happened to be a multi-millionaire and we were adding the addition to his summer home, which he stays in 8 weeks out of the year. I overheard the builder say it was a $2,000,000.00 addition (yes you read that right), but it included extnsive landscaping, a new deck and re-doing the in-ground pool. The homeowner was also building a brand new house in Mexico the same time we were doing his addition on his other house. So we’re getting killed on the low bid, and the homeowner is lounging in mexico, enjoying his millions. Hardly seems fair.
The GC would come by the job, and had no idea what was going on at any time. The project was about an hour from his office, so he’d hardly ever visit the jobsite. This translated into me becoming the quasi-GC, even to the point I was meeting other subs to explain things to them, and me stopping the pool crew from drilling the holes in the foundation for their pump equipment in the wrong location. This really began to aggravate me, but I thought ‘well, at least I’m working.’
The GC and myself did a final walk-around going over punchlist things, and on a few minor things – installation of 10 decorative pvc brackets under the soffits – the GC said “oh, I’ll have my guy take care of that do’t worry about that.” to which I just said “oh, ok then.” He wanted us to get to the next house frame he’d lined up for us, which was fine by me – happy to be busy of course.
So we go into his office to get out final payment from the addition and the deposit for the new house frame. Turns out he tries to dock us $1,800.00 for stuff that he said “he’d take care of” on the additon and also dock us $1,500.00 from the new house frame because he had his guy start the frame on the new house, which about 2 days of work was done. I vehemently protested and wanted to punch him right in the face, but we compromised and I took a $1,200.00 hit, which wasn’t OK, but I just accepted it. The clincher was when I reminded him “you said you’d take care of that stuff, remember?” to which his answer was “well… not for free!” Wow. Ok.
We also got stiffed $6,000.00 on the next house, but we knew it was coming. I’m filing a lein on the property because I have no other recourse other than bloody, raging violence, which I won’t do because it’s probably a bad idea.
Anyway, that’s my story. We’re now working for another builder who we’ve done several projects for and he says he’ll never even use anyone other than us for his framing. We’re still slow but it seems like things are picking up now. We’e building a new house and car barn for a powerball winner, so we bid this one a little better. But still, getting stiffed stings. When you take pride in doing good work for a fair price and you still get screwed over, it makes you want to saw-zall someone’s head off and kick it through a bay window.
I’ll post some pictures up here of the addition we did when I figure out how.
Thanks for reading. Tt felt good to vent on here and I’m sure some of you can relate.
Replies
sucks
There are PLENTY od scumbags out there.
but we compromised and I took a $1,200.00 hit, which wasn't OK, but I just accepted it.
You should have given him a verbal on starting the next project and walked; leaving him flapping in the wind.
Now you have learned a bit more on recognition of a s b.
You might want to look into the level of detail that you write in to your contracts.
As per plans is a disaster waiting to happen unless perhaps you drew them.
Good luck, you are young enough to recover and still excel.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I got beat for $7000 on the last frame I did.... two weeks after my entire tool trailer was stolen off this guy's site. This business can really be a kick in the balls sometimes. At least I've been out of work since. LOL.... I shoulda stayed in college.
"LOL.... I shoulda stayed in college."
Yeah those Starbucks jobs are much less stressful. :)
Hah yeah, I went to college to be an architect but sitting a desk just was not fun for me. I had to work outside and I had to build things.
I love framing, I just don't like the pay. At all.
I say all the time, I love my job, but hate the business. It's the truth.View Image
Brian,
I've been out of work about half of my time since Jan.
Been doing a lot of reading, thinking and pondering.
I just cannot for the life of me understand what it is that prevents the consumer from understanding the true value of the work we do.
They will drop 50, 60 80 g or more on some pos fancy car or suv, but when it comes to getting something done in their 500,000$ home, they want to find the cheapest way out.
Sometimes seems like you could stand on their neck for an hour yelling at them about what you have endure to learn and understand what is is you do and when you finally have their agreement and let them up, they'll go hire the cheaper guy.
Seems like a life of frustration sometimes.
Good thing there are the ocassional shining stars or the ho's and gc's wouldn't have anyone worth while to work for them.
You're young enough to get out if you wish. Us 'old' guys are init for the long haul.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I hear you Eric. The problem is... I really do love the work. All carpentry really. Framing has been my business for the past 8 or 9 years, but I always consider myself a carpenter first. Lately I've done an oak stair case, a hardwood floor, and a kitchen gut remodel that I'm currently working on which includes building some cabinets to match some that they already have. I've really been enjoying myself lately, work wise. And after playing mother hen to framing crews for the past decade... I REALLY enjoy working alone.
It's the business end that kills me. Kills me. So the problem I face is that to earn a living doing what I enjoy doing, I have to swallow the part I hate... the business of building and working on homes. There's only a handful of other things outside of working on homes that interest me enough to consider making a career out of. And they all involve the long, time consuming, and expensive process of going back to school. So I'm sort of stuck.View Image
I'm glad to hear that you are expanding your horizons. You have the talent.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
"So I'm sort of stuck."The hell you are.
You're one of the more creative ones in here.Just stop telling yourself sh!t even though it may be true and go rub shoulders with a pencil neck business geek for a while.I suffer from the same thing and I'm telling you it's not terminal.I can't believe the friggin' talent in this place.
"So I'm sort of stuck."
ya know what really sucks ... when you finally sit down for decision time ... outta work and behind on bills ... seriously looking at bankrupcy ...
then add up what ya need to make to cover the basic expenses ... which ... ain't much 'cause ya don't live like a rock star ...
and realize ... there's really no other line of work you can jump right into and make enough money to pay back all your contracting debts!
I've been there a coupla times ... gotta laugh to not cry.
Reality hits ... you really are f'n stuck being a self employeed carpenter ...
'cause even though that's what dug the hole yer standing in currently ...
that's also the only way to make enough money to dig yerself out!
last time i fell behind on accounts and a line of credit ... worked and paid everything off ... lost the line of credit ... and was glad I did. Ever so slowly creeping toward running a "no credit" business/lifestyle. Certainly not there yet ... but am there mentally.
sucks to be broke ... sucks more to be broke and owe others. That's like being double broke!
trapped we are.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
All I can add to that post is AMEN.
It's hard to hear it from someone else and even harder to accept it ourselves.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Take away what you love doing makes it really hard to want to get up in the morning. Give me a project and a time line and it's balls to the walls
I'm not sure which was the bigger kick in the b%ll sack.....
Having closed up shop and then having an insurance company audit and getting a $3500 insurance bill while making that big E-5/Buck Sergeant pay
Or
Coming home from Bosnia and spending the first three days of leave chasing down a guy that owed me $1900.......................for the whole year I was gone....and had prmoised my wife that he would "Mail that check out this week for you".
Drew Carey said he knew he was becoming a success when his house turned into a box to hold all his expensive carp.
Unfortunately, that's all too true everywhere.
"to hold all his expensive carp."
Well he did grow up near Lake Erie. :)
I helped do some remodeling on his childhood home a few years ago. A buddy of mine grew up with him. He had me cut out a section of railing on his new second story deck and install a gate so that he could do cannonballs from his second story deck into his brand new pool. I've got some photos of a couple of us testing the new opening by doing cannonballs ourselves. And no, I'm fairly certain this does not meet code.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
Edited 4/20/2009 9:24 am ET by SteveInCleveland
Edited 4/20/2009 9:24 am ET by SteveInCleveland
He's an impressive guy. Seems completely low key and just enjoying life. Not sure i'd want to be close by when he's doing cannonballs though. i think the wake might be a little bigger since i saw him on the comedy club circuit in Cincinnati a zillion years ago.
The customer spending money on the flashy car has something to show off.
The customer spending money on rough framing or hidden mechanical systems has nothing to show off for the money spent.
"....what it is that prevents the consumer from understanding the true value of the work we do."That's actually easy, Eric. The vast majority of them don't know the difference between a good job and a bad one. Since they don't have the knowledge to make a decision based on quality, the only place they feel comfortable is about the money.It isn't their fault. Most of them know nothing about how a house gets built. They just live there and worry about making the payments. If you want them to buy what you're selling at your price, you gotta educate them. - lol.Flip the problem around and talk to someone in another profession who you feel charges way more than they're worth. I'll bet that - if you keep an open mind - you'll come away with a much different opinion.I had a real "gotcha" moment this past week with a lady who has me building several pieces of custom cabinetry and furniture. She bought three drawer style dressers on the internet and had her son assemble them. She sent me an email saying that they were absolute cr@p and that I could have done better half drunk. I answered that I'm sure I could have and now she should understand why my prices are what they are. She replied that she certainly did now and that she'll be wanting three dressers in the future. Ahhh, sweet justice!! - lol
Same with me. After years drawing at a desk I just began to feel sick. The final straw was cad. I've always loved the physical act of drawing. Once that was gone so was I. Working outside has its drawbacks but I feel much better physically.
yeah that may be true but a young friend of mine (whom is working with me right now) . his girlfriend got a job at starbucks and is still getting her full unemployment check. at least she hasn't been self-unemployed for the last 25 years so she can still draw!
That really sucks. When your trailer gets stolen you are essentially out of business.
Did you try to get your $7000 somehow or write it off as an expensive lesson?
I ask because my business partner wants to write off our stiffing as lesson learned, but I'd like to get paid for work that I've done and done well. Crazy concept, I know.
I'm still in the process of chasing it. But I've got a bad feeling about this one. I've only been beat one other time, for about $2500. This one really stings though... between paying taxes last week, the trailer theft, the economy, and this... I'm on my heels.View Image
did it ever cross yer mind that if the guy was gonna beat you for 7K he would'nt hesitate to lift your trailor also?
Most of us have been there at one time or another. The bigger, large crew companies suffer bigger losses because the size of the projects, and small potatoes like me suffer smaller losses, but can't afford it just the same. Of course, I'm referring to the losses generated from dealing with unscrupulous clients.
I try not to let this sort of thing bother me, lest I end up with an ulcer. If I can get my money through legal means, I do so. If I can't but I can find a way to burn them back, I do so. And if there is nothing I can do about it, I take it as a hard earned lesson and try to not let it happen again.
I'm with you about trying to get your money from the scumbag, and I'm sorry your partner want's to let it go so easily. Of course, you have to weigh how much it would cost and the likelyhood of how successful you'll be. But at least you're not throwing in the towel just yet.
Glad to hear things are working out with the current GC. It's good to work with/for somebody who appreciates your skills.
Peace!
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
Meet me at House & Builder!
Sounds bad. Sorry for your pain. Welcome to the framer's club.
File the lien properly and file in small claims court. Get all your dates and paper in order early and be prepared to lay it all out in front of the judge. It's easier than you think when you are on the honest side of the aisle.
If you haven't experienced small claims court, take an afternoon and sit in on a few cases. Here in TX it's very laid back.
Diesel, sorry to hear you are getting burned after you got burned. My advice is the same...file in small claims court.
Before ya'll file, send registered demands for full payment. Dont threaten anything but mention that you will pursue all legal avenues of collection. When you win (you will) you still might not be able to collect but you will be able to use the judgements to affect their credit.
Just reading through the posts and took particular interest as I am a framing contractor on Cape Cod who like all has been being beat up of late and feeling like I hate my bus and must find something else to do but can't think of anything where I can make the money my family is used to. Blue you have the quote of the day "Welcome to the framers club", put a big smile on my face and has me laughing. I sure hope in a few months we'll all be wondering why we ever questioned our love for building houses.
I'm sorry to hear that you've gotten screwed by this guy not once but twice. Although I'm certain it's pretty tempting, definitely do not resort to violence. Utilize the lein (court avenue), you've got truth on your side.
I forgot to mention: Don't be surprised to learn if you are not the only one he is screwing over. I get the feeling his crooked dealings spare no one.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
Edited 4/20/2009 9:25 am ET by SteveInCleveland
>>>We had beaten out 3 or 4 other framers and the high bid was $45,000; ours was $26,000. Yeah, ouch.<<<<.
Sitting home with no work after being beaten by lowballers tends for me to extend my sympathies more towards the other framers then you.
I hope that does not sound nasty perhaps the other guys knew what was coming and you walked into this like a rube in the big city .
O sorry that sounds nasty to let me say i have been there too.
I talk to other contractors and we see a contractor be all happy they got a job from a jerk and we all bet on when the axe falls on him..
Might be a good lesson to ask around about someone, I do know when one is slow one tends to overlook the red flags.
Yes I am aware nobody likes being undercut but when everyone else is doing it to you and youre sitting at home with your bills piled up, you say to yourself "I'll just lowbid this one to get it so I can pay some bills." It sucks but it's what happens when work is painfully slow.
We bid another frame at $27,500 and someone undercut us and bid it at $16,000.
People are hurting right now and will do whatever it takes just to get some work.
Years ago i figured whatever i had to do i had to wean myself off builders. They wanted me right away with no notice, I got the bums rush to get far enough so they could get a payment, I was always doing "extras", Then i had to wait and wait for my money. My guys needed pay on Friday not the 10th of next month. Maybe not so bad years ago but when times are good every bodys a paper builder and imagine themselfs as ruthless Donal Trumps. Then if you have no work you go broke trying to keep a good crew together.. I do understand and am sorry if i sounded rude.
I wish I could repeat all of the similar stories I heard as the local economy wound down starting in 2006
I sold a telehandler to a guy with extremely poor credit score (longish story) 4 months later he paid off the balance in dead presidents.. Folding green..
He and his 2 sons were extremely fast and acurite they could frame a 2500 sq.ft. 2 story house in 4 days and get it past the inspector the morning of the 5th day and start on the next one..
by 2006 they were out of work and so they built a spec house..
That's when they went from fat bank balances to calling me to borrow money against their telehandler to finish off the house..
Yes they lost their shirt. As did about 35% of the framers I worked with.. the ones who have survived are a tiny fraction of their former selves..
I've been reading this thread and feel bad for Steele and all the other folks who have gotten burnt by bad GCs, I've been there as well, framed out an entire remodel and got stiffed for thousands, didn't have the funds to fight it in court.I do have a hard time feeling bad for the industry in general in regards to the quotes of folks who built houses in 4 days having a rough time. The demand is just not there for the legion of framers out there to be building houses rapid fire like they were coffee tables. Perhaps the economic slowdown will bring about less of a race to the fastest speed and hence lowest margins possible..those low margins create such a low margin of error that it then begets other problems. I rarely hear advertising firms or architects or custom car builders boast of how quickly they crank out their next item, perhaps if we treat our own work like less of a commodity the general public will follow suit.
It's a nice thought... but good luck with that. The word "idealistic" comes to mind. As a framer, I can tell you, building at break-neck speed is not what I call a good time. But answer the phone for a framing call and 9 out of 10 times the first thing they ask is, "how much?" followed shortly thereafter by, "how fast". Blame the framers if you want, but trust me when I tell you that 'fast and cheap' was never our idea. If you don't think I'd rather take my time and put together a quality product then you're worse off than I thought.
The real problem now is that there's crews out there who have never seen it any different. They don't even know that their mistakes and oversights are a problem. They think that building junk and missing the details is par for the course. Therefore they are bidding on an entirely different product than what I'm bidding on. We are looking at the same set of plans and seeing two different jobs. As long as builders find this acceptable, it's not going to change any time soon. There isn't any motivation for the hacks to change. The only way I've found to combat this is to break down my bids in finite detail to try to highlight the difference.View Image
"We are looking at the same set of plans and seeing two different jobs."
Well said.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
your first paragraph is the age old mentality. How cheap, how fast. When everything is going good it is more of "when can you start?".
The down side to all of this how fast part is that customers are still thinking that companies have large crews laying around, when in fact, the majority of the companies are trimmed down so lean that the experienced guys and will do the schlepping themselves. I see more business owners working more on sites than in the recent past. less workers, longer turn around times. I actually prefer to be on site, seems things always go smoother, less miscommunication, i.e more profitable
The hardest thing for me to understand is when a business owner will let go of the profit producing workers and then look for the cheapest guy to replace him when work does actually materialize. I realize that it is sometimes necessary, but it's never my first choice.
I can't tell you how many times I kept my guys busy with make work to to have them available when I needed them at a later time. I know that some will say that this is not a finacially stable business practice., but it is better than trying to find new, reliable, quality people when you need them. It's more of a balancing act.
Dieselpig,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I don't blame the framers in fact(hell, sometimes I am 'the framers' though it's more often metal). Without being too earthy crunchy I suppose I mostly blame Horton, Toll Brothers, and the tract guys for commodifying housing until every home was just another plastic-y unit just like the one opposite it.
I'm often on the libertarian side of things and against regulation but it might be the lesser of two evils(the other being the cheapening of the work we do) to immitate some of the mechanical unions(specifically their commercial branches) in the way they not only dictate who can perform work(ie. licenses) but also exert legislative pressure on when new products get approved for use. You don't see the pipefitters giving up on their labor intensive black iron sprinkler pipe and when something new is approved their members are in a class learning it right away. If whenever new truss systems came out union framers learned the install procedure and where the only ones the truss plant sold to it'd do some good in keeping the illegal immigrants and bottom feeders out of things. Maybe too restrictive but the best I can come up with.
I don't fault hard working people for trying to get as much as they can out of oppertunity..
It's hard when you're dedicated to a job to pull your head up long enough to get a serious look at the future.
While I saw this coming a year before most, it was too late for me to do anything about it.. All I could do was hang on and hope it wouldn't be as bad as I thought..
The fact that it's turned out much worse than I thought is little consolation.
As to any moral lession being learned, I'm afraid not.
Ambition knows no such boundry. optomism is the driving force that makes this country the great power it is and if we have people second guessing themselves as to the nature of oppertunity we will be destroyed as a nation..
" We had beaten out 3 or 4 other framers and the high bid was $45,000; ours was $26,000. Yeah, ouch."
Steele,
A thought just occurred to me, so I haven't had time to wrap my head around it yet, but what if you had bid the job with the following;
$26,000.00 or five percent below the next highest bid.
I wonder if the GC would go for it. Tell him you are just covering yourself in case you made a drastic mistake in estimating, and who hasn't done that.
If the next highest bid was $35,500.00 (Which is the average of 45K and 26K) and you bid $26,000.00, with the wording ($26,000.00 or five percent below the next highest bid.) you would end up doing the job for $33,725.00.
The GC gets a deal and doesn't hurt you, and you make an extra $7,725.00.
This does depend on the GC being open about showing the bids, but who knows?
Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
As a guy who frequently submits into competitive bidding situations, I'd say that's borderline unethical business practice and generally a pretty lazy and lame thing to do.View Image
I generally frown on charges that are "X or Y, whichever is higher".It's all win-win for the bidder and lose-lose for the guy getting the bids.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
GC is going to come back $xx or 5% under will turn into whichever is lower
so you will end up doing it for $18000
if you want to play games, go to the casino... if you want to run a business, learn your costs..look.... i'm a gc.. and i count on my subs knowing their business
which means they have to know their costs, then bid accordinglythis poster bid below his costs and is now wondering how he got into this messi got that tee shirt a long time ago
i like the one that says " i can stay home and go broke slower than taking a job below cost"matter of fact .... the only way i get in trouble now is by hiring a sub who can't perform..
and they usually can't perform because they didn't bid high enough to cover their nutnext thing you know , they are running 3 jobs into the ground instead of one
then they can't finish any of themi know there are some GC's who use a business model of screwing the subs... but most anyone with a good ear knows who they are
and if they go to work for them , why do they think they will fare any better than the previous poor bastid
Edited 4/21/2009 2:37 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/21/2009 2:38 pm ET by MikeSmith
Sometimes we'll bid a job and the GC will reply with "gee, can you get it any lower?"
My answer is 99% of the time "No I can't. If it's too high for you, then you should probably get some more bids."
The other 1% of the time I've lowered my price I've always regretted it.
Also I was wondering if anyone's ever had any success in charging a small fee for job bids ($50, $100)? The worst is spending a lot of time on a bid and not get the job, but I assume that's just part of the game.
Also I was wondering if anyone's ever had any success in charging a small fee for job bids ($50, $100)? The worst is spending a lot of time on a bid and not get the job, but I assume that's just part of the game.
LOL.... man you just asked the right guy, the right question. Mike is a firm believer in charging for bids (and one of the few I know who actually pulls it off). View Image
By doing that kind of 'bid' you are proclaiming loudly that you want to be the cheapest SOB on the block. You are strongly implying that you are willing to do anything and cut any corner to be able to do that.and the most foolish thing of all, you are allowing your competitors to establish your prices for you - without regards to your own real costs.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Whoaaaa!!! I was just tryin' to help a brother out! :-) This was just an idea. I did say I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, but if you bid that low on a job then desperate times call for desperate measures. If you don't know how to bid and you keep getting in trouble my idea might help. It is not the way I do business, just some brainstorming. Ideally, one should know his costs and bid accordingly.I don't do much, in fact any, competitive bidding. My price is my price and it is in fact based on my costs. I am rarely not the highest bidder and I grew 21 percent last year and am on track to match that this year. I always want to be the highest bidder because we offer a great remodeling experience and our reputation shows that. In the past week I received a glowing email from a client on how one of my guys handled a remodeling job and another client wanted to know what kind of gift she could give to two other guys on another job that just finished up a large remodel.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
That was the editorial, rhetorical 'you', nothing personal.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yer feisty today. :)View Image
You said you when you should of said you. Now I know what you mean.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
You think?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I once knew a ewe, but the ewe that I knew wasn't you.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
holy hammer
We rarely see that personal a confession in these parts.
Ron
ROTFLMAO!!! It was back in college, but I didn't inhale.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
I don't think he knew her in a biblical way.but then i weren't there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That ewe needed pushing through the fence!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The Embraceable Ewe's were the cheerleaders. I was a Ram.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
A little update for anyone interested.
I called up a few lawyers and tried my best to explain my situation and the first three didn't even want the case. The one who did take it was sympathetic to my dilemma, so I went to his office to file a lein on the property.
The lein was filed against the property last week and a certified letter was sent to the homeowner (who really has nothing to do with anything, but I have no choice) to inform him that his house already has a lein against it and the shingles aren't even on.
I haven;t heard a word from the scumbag builder nor the unfortunate homewoner. My lawyer says a lawsuit now be filed against both the builder and the homeowner to "perfect the lein", meaning we all have to appear before a judge and tell our sides of the story. In other words, you can't just file a lein without proving the need for it; hence, perfecting the lein. More hassle, of course.
My lawyer looked me in eye and said "hey man, you got burned. It's not really worth fighting in court over $6,000, because my fees will be around 3 grand. So even if we win, you'll come out with 3 grand, max, and lose more work time. I can ask the judge to award you attorney's fees, but they are usually not granted in a suit such as this."
So when I also considered the possibility I might lose the case ("respected" builder vs lowly subcontractor - me), it's not worth pursuing further. I suppose I'l have to chalk this up to lesson learned and try not to let it happen to me again.
Scumbag - 1, Me - 0.
It isn't fair.
"My lawyer looked me in eye and said "hey man, you got burned. It's not really worth fighting in court over $6,000, because my fees will be around 3 grand. So even if we win, you'll come out with 3 grand, max, and lose more work time. I can ask the judge to award you attorney's fees, but they are usually not granted in a suit such as this."So when I also considered the possibility I might lose the case ("respected" builder vs lowly subcontractor - me), it's not worth pursuing further. I suppose I'l have to chalk this up to lesson learned and try not to let it happen to me again."I don't know what the time frame in your area is to perfect the lien. Or what the time schedule is for the courts.I would wait awhile and then go ahead and file the suite to perfect the lien. Should only cost $25 - $100 in filing fees and a couple of hundred to the attorney to write it up.Then if you don't get any action you can always drop the law suite before the court case is scheduled.Doing that should not cost much and it gets them additional notice.Might be enough to shake them loose. Specially the HO. But check with your attorney about doing this..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The first guy that burned my father..............................
I remember it pretty well.............."Stay in the Truck.............don't you dare get out"
ANd I got to see the builder get thrown out of the house thru one side of an Andersen Slider...............then back in the house thru the other pane.
Of course...................Times were a little different then................and Dad never got burned again.
I'm still pretty sure that the fear that the guy you burned was gonna come kick your teeth in and the cops would probably keep him in the local lock up over night to cool off?
Was a way more effective derent than a lien..........................but......different times.
Ain't that the truth. Sooooo many times I think, back in the day.........Now everyone gets lawyered up and I don't want some dirt bag living in my house. To extract your pound of flesh, you have one night per year "HOLLOWEEN". "Hey, anyone could have done that. It was Holloween night, night of pranks." It's just 5 months away, be patient!!!!!!!
Now everyone gets lawyered up and I don't want some dirt bag living in my house
In a lot of way's, the legal system has given guys the ability to be total $hitbags.....knowing full well that they will get away with it. Right or wrong.
IN this case, the builder knows that if the Subcontractor comes over gives him a few good shots in the face? HE can sue him and he'll end up being the one who pays.
If the Sub goes to a lawyer.......well, you just heard what happened.
Of course.....and I'm sure I'll get called all kinds of names for this...........I still believe that if you do wrong and take an a$$ kicking over it? And then go cry to a lawyer or the police? You should be required by law to surrender both testicles.
I agree. Maybe because I am in the blessed position of not HAVING to get the work, when I'm on my "GO SEE'S" I project an air about me that I'm on the same footing as the client, no matter who they may be. I command the same respect from them as I give them. I can and will walk at any moment and they know it. This seemingly also brings in a "fear factor". Don't know exactly why but it does. FEAR goes ALONG way. I've never gotten stiffed. Maybe someone else on the same job, but not me, I think somewhere in their minds a little voice say's to them "You know he seem's just alittle out-there!!!".
So now that the lien is filed, why can't you skip the attorney and go to small claims court? It won't cost $3K, and the most you'll lose is a couple of days time.
Yes that is actually my next step and seemingly my only choice.
I'm out another $400 for the lein filing and small claims court limit is $2,000, while I am owed a total of $6,000.
small claim here is limited to $7500
"'m out another $400 for the lein filing "Just for the filing? I would expect that would be $25-50.Or or you talking about an attorney to write it up?.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Yeah that was what the attorney charged me to write it and file it at the local courthouse.
I thought it might've been enough to make the HO harass the GC into paying me. But, nope.