So, not wanting to start the shellac debate… but my new Marvin Integrity pine interior windows arrive next week, so it is decision time how to finish them. With little to no experience, and with serious time crunch (would like to finish before install) I was hoping to get away with the least steps possible. (shoulda ordered vinyl)
Can I use Zinsser Seal Coat Sanding Sealer as a pre-condtioner, then switch to Min Wax Polyshades – one step stain & finish? (assuming the color is ok) The min wax does say not to use over shellac or lacquer, but the Zinsser say the Seal Coat is dewaxed so is compatible with everything.
If not, I would then prefer to use water based products. Would I then be better off just using the Min Wax preconditioner with their water based stain, then polycrylic finish?
Thanks I am really confused – too many options & products. I want to just KISS it.
Replies
To KISS it, stay with all minwax product from conditioner, thru stain and to topcoats.
I once had a reaction with minwax and another product. Don't know about their modern formulas, but they used to have stearates that react with some other products that sometimes say on label do not use with stearates.
I would also wait and finish after install.
DH, sliders or casements?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Casements, awnings & picture. I thought it would be easier to do on the ground laying flat - especially the ones that are high up - 4 start at the 8' mark, but 2 other are in the second story, but no floor below.
I see that.For fixed windows, OK, but to do others, you need to open and disconnect, which can cause problems in un-installed operable units. That is my opinion anyways.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would take your experienced opinion over my "never having done this before"opinion every time.
So, install the operable ones, then stain & finish, but the fixed high ones I can finish first.
So.. stopped at Rona (Lowes) on the way home from work and picked up some samples to try staining on a sample board. Out of the 6 different ones I tried, I found one where I liked the colour. Wonderful I thought, easy simple for a DIYer - Min Wax Polyshade honey Pine. Now I read a bunch of past posts re this stuff..... so I guess I am back to square one. ARGH!
In your valued opinion, would the Zinsser Seal coat as conditioner, then the Zinnser amber shellac, no stain give me the same sort of natural pine with a bit of colour look?
You nailed it. Thats the best option.
Polyshades is about the worst finish on the market..steer away, far away.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You'll get the same colour/finish from any oil based polyurethene as from polyshades honey pine, IMO Nice amber tone.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just posted a thread about the same thing.
These guy's know there stuff.
But I wasn't too fond of the Amber shellac. So I'd say try some tests first.
My preference on pine windows is minwax early american colonial (something like that). I prefer to do the windows before install. My routine goes like this. Strip the hardware and remove sash. Fill any nail holes. Paint on pre-conditioner, watch the pine closely as you do this, you'll hit spots where it is like a sponge, you can't get it to stay on the surface, it's sucked up so fast. Brush on stain everywhere except these spots. Now wipe it off with a rag, they'll be enough extra to hit the spots you went easy on earlier. Let it dry at least 24 hours. Then 3 coats of oil based poly, it's still my preference for wet areas or sills that get allot of things parked on them. Do not sand until after the second coat.
Do you have a HVLP outfit or even a standard high pressure gun?
Are you any good at spraying?
If yes to both, I can tell ya how to get this type of look on pine without much pain at all. No grain reversal as is usually the case when direct staining pine. Clarity of grain...no problem. No long dry times as with OB poly. You are in total control of the final color.
These particular windows have been in place for 8 years now and show no signs of fade or degrading of finish.
Here's a couple shots. One is the window I'm coloring up against the old birch casing that I needed to match.
Poly shades suck...for most applications. Sometimes though, it's just what the doctor ordered. As in.....when muddy color and hiding the grain is desirable.
Do you have a HVLP outfit or even a standard high pressure gun?
Are you any good at spraying?
Don't know what HVLP outfit is? So No & No. But hubby likes to buy tools and we have been learning it is all about the right tool for the job.
Good at spraying? Very litte experience, but hubsand is not bad.
So would be interested to know your process.
What type of wood are you using for your trim? If it's not clear pine like the windows it will not take stain the same. The trim and the windows will be different colors.
You should stain a sample of the trim first and try to match that with the windows.
Not to start anything but I use Bix Pre Stain on the windows. Then an oil stain (color to match stained trim), no brand preference. Stain trim.
Benj Moore water borne poly (benwood I think) low luster over everything. Two coats, cure a few days, gray scotch brite and a third coat.
Great question. Ya know, I am not 100% sure what we will be using for the trim. The windows are clear southern yellow pine. Knotty white pine is what is available here for trim & the beams we are using are also white pine. Alternate choice would be fir as the second level open loft will have t&G fir planking on it and I think the staircase will most likely be fir. Trying to not get too many things going on. I know they will all never match, but do want them to blend and compliment each other.
I guess I should be asking which would be easier to blend / match to the yellow pine - fir or knotty white pine trim?
I would think the white pine rather than the fir, would match the window pine better but I really don't know.
Sphere?
Ok once again, to you and Confused...the Minwax conditioner is THINNED POLY....SHORT OIL!
Do NOT ever use it, yyou have commited to useing the SAME.
While it repels H2O and such, it cures to a sward hardness, and rejectability, worse than plain old shellac..
This is the conundrum, do you want a flawless finish NOW? Or repairabilty, THEN. Or a close match to what exists?
Finishing is NOT a "whoomp there it is" it may involve many layers, it also involves a basic underSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
HVLP stand for a high volume, low pressure...spray rig. Far less drift and overspray. More material sticks to the intended target....less material floating around in the air (wasted) and more where you really want it. My favorite way of coloring pine is to use the liquid trans-tint dyes from Homestead Finishing (Google away) suspended in Zinsser's Sealcoat. This works especially well when you have to match existing wood/trim....whether that be old or new....same species of wood or different. One caveat is that you can't easily make the wood a lighter color than it is when it's in a raw state. Therefore, match the lighter to the darker to keep things simple.
The advantages of coloring pine this way are many and the drawbacks, few. You have virtually complete control of the final color and if you make a mistake, it's easy to remedy.
Basic procedure is as follows: Shoot a coat or better yet two... of Sealcoat on the bare wood. (It's ready to spray right out of the can; no thinning necessary) Allow to dry; an hour or so to be safe. Mix the trans-tints up directly in more Sealcoat and shoot it that way. Advantage to this rather than dissolving them in lacquer thinner or alcohol is that you get to see your actual color at all times. If you were to mix up and shoot in solvent instead... when that solvent evaporates, the visible color shifts and you're no longer looking at the color you'll have when you apply the final coats of clear finish. IOW, you'd only get to see the actual color for a few seconds. Got a good eye and memory? You'd need it if you did it that way. But... when mixed in the Sealcoat, the color you see is the color you'll have when you apply the protective clear overcoats.
The color builds with each successive coat. You sneak up on your desired depth of color.
If you make a mistake blending the trans-tint colors or shoot a bit too much on the piece, just remove it and start again. Wet a cloth or paper towel with denatured alcohol and wipe off the color coat(s). If you do this wiping quickly, you won't remove those first clear coats of Sealcoat you applied. And consequently... none of the color you're removing will get wiped down into the raw wood.
When your desired color is achieved, leave things dry for 8 hours or so. Then it's tme to shoot your protective clear coats. On those particular windows, I used 2 coats of waterborne spar varnish with UV inhibitors. Main reason being that I didn't want the color to shift over time and waterbornes don't...unlike oil-based products, which amber with time. I used Flecto waterborne "Diamond" spar urethane with UV inhibitors. (Finishing products promoted/labeled for outdoor use are frequently needed/suitable for interior use, too) The glass in most windows these days block UV to some substantial degree, but more blocking will (and has) prevented fading/shifting of the color. After 8 years, all still looks like new. One caution though: If you use a waterborne product, be aware that these do not stand up to alcohol spills or to ammonia. This means don't allow anyone to spray beer over your windows and don't allow Windex or similar products to pool on the finish and remain there.
Don't know what color you're after, but for those windows I used a combination of trans-tint colors; dark vintage maple, honey amber & light red mahogany. To be exact...10/10/3 ratio. 30/30/9 drops in 8 oz of SealCoat .....or 60/60/18 drops in 12 ounces of SealCoat for faster color build. No problems with proper curing/drying at these ratios.
Pierce the end the bottle nipple with a smallish needle. Don't cut it off. The stuff is very thin and you want to count drops while arriving at your recipe ratios...especially if blending different colors.
Thanks so much for the detailed instructions, specific brands & formulas used. Very helpful. Can this proces be done on windows after they are installed?
In reading past posts re Seal Coat / Shellacs - there was one that said Shellac is no good to use on windows that are subject to frost. Is this a true?
Does the same apply for the spar varnish re frost?
Not only are these windows to be installed in frigid Canadian climate, they are also in a seasonal home wherein, we won't necessarily be there daily to wipe up moisture / frost off the sills. The home will be heated via geothermal lake loop, so it will be kept at a reasonable temp all winter (save for power outages). Being a new build and not knowing what kind of moisture issues we will have (in particular this winter as the finishing / insulating will not be 100% done) - frost on the windows ruining the finish is a concern.
Can this proces be done on windows after they are installed?
Yes. However, depending upon what surrounds the windows...you may be in for some extensive masking of those surfaces. Even when using a HVLP unit, there will be some drift and overspray. And you may want to park a fan in a window somewhere nearby for ventilation. You *will* want to be wearing an appropriate respirator of course, if spraying. And as you pointed out, it's just easier to mask the window glass off and such on the bench rather than when the unit is installed. However, there is an upside to doing them in place; that being that you don't have to find room in the shop to park all these windows while they're drying.
there was one that said Shellac is no good to use on windows that are subject to frost. Is this a true?
Yes. While shellac is a great water vapor barrier, it does not resist water droplets all that well. Water that condenses on the glass and then pools on the shellac would be a problem. Heck, water that penetrates into or manages to get under the edge of any film type finish will be a problem. If that water then freezes (expands) it will raise havoc with any finish....particularly so if it sneaks into the wood under the finish.
The shellac in this instance would be under the spar varnish and not directly exposed to standing water droplets. The waterborne spar should stand up fine to water dropets, but I have no long term experience with it ...in the environment you describe that it may encounter... in which many wettings and then freeze/thaw cycles may occur.
From the sounds of it, you already own these windows. Guess I'm wondering if this might be a situation where all vinyl window sash would have been a better choice. As it is, you'll have to proceed with choosing a finish and see to it that the job is done well. Then cross your fingers. <G>
Edited 8/28/2008 11:40 am ET by HootOwl
Thanks so very much!
Do be aware that waterborne products are kinda persnickety as concerns temperature and humidity levels.
Basically ...don't apply if temps are real high or chilly cold... or humidity levels are very dry or very humid. Cold and humid would likely be the worst combo. Best results would be obtained in moderate temps with moderate humidity.
Thanks for that tip, and to answer your question regarding vinyl - probably yes, that was my vote (at least for the bed & bathrooms), but my husband was insistant on lots of wood. I do think we may regret it.
Don't jump to conclusions quite yet. <G>
You might find that you don't have near the problems you anticipate and all will be well.
I would encourage you to be careful when applying your final clear coats so that all of the wood gets covered. Every little bit right down to where it meets the glass. The top edge of the bottom rail on a casement window and the top edge of the both bottom rails on double hungs will be the areas that are the most critical. That cause this is where any water from condensation will collect.
I hope things work out and all is well.
Here's one more pic so that if you decide to give this coloring procedure a go, you'll know better what to expect.
The window on the right has one coat of the coloring on it. The window on the left has four coats and is ready for clear coats cause the color is now a match to what I needed.
Note that the same recipe ratio is being used on both windows although you wouldn't suspect so from just looking at them. This is what I meant when I said that you have complete control of both the color and the depth of color...and that the best way to get this done is to sneak up on your final depth of color with multiple coats.
Thanks, I hope you are right! I know I am worrying & stressing over this process too much. I thought there would be one simple easy (as in this is the best, step 1,2,3 , use XYZ product end of story. I am so afraid of ruining $30K worth of windows.
If we think the spraying is too difficult for us, do you think using a gel stain would be easier on to do on windows - less dripping?
Depends upon how "set" you are on achieving a particular color. If not so fussy, then yes...maybe. But you can only get the wood to take so much color if staining with a gel. If that's dark/deep enough to suit you, then you're happy. If not, you have a problem. <G>
Fact is, I gave up on using gel stains years back (unless matching up to something that the HO had already used a particular gel stain on)...because there are better ways for me to get any color I want/need.
Less dripping? Does this mean that when your husband sprays....things drip? If so, he's applying too much at once, is too close to the surface with the gun, moves his gun in an uneven manner, has his material too thin.......or any combination of the above. <G>
What you could perhaps consider doing is...you mask all the windows off (saves mucho time and so saves mucho ...then hire someone (cabinet or custom woodshop) to stop by with an HVLP turbine rig and shoot the color for you on site. If you use a waterborne product for the clear topcoats...those can be applied by brush. That because the color and the underlying shellac won't dissolve into the WB when you apply it. IOW, you won't smear anything. Same holds true ifyou should instead decide to use an oil-based product for the clear coats.
Edited 8/28/2008 10:25 pm ET by HootOwl
Less dripping was if we don't spray, but use brushes by hand.
I think I may see if I can get a quote for someone to come out to spray, maybe the kitchen cabinet people might be able to. However stop by? :) We are water access only, by the end of October, we hike in 20-30 minutes through the bush, then we pray for cold so that a good ice road can be built. Cuz bad ice roads are very scary. Actually any ice road is scary. But I digress.
If the windows get put in within the next couple of weeks, can I just put a light coat of something on them until say Dec /January when perhaps a spray person could come in to finish?
I *think* you could probably (hopefully) get away with applying one coat of SealCoat. Most of it will likely sink into the wood, but that's okay. In fact, it might be best if it does. Apply thinly perhaps. That way it would serve both to seal the wood against dirt absorption, wouldn't interfere with proceeding with trans-tint coloring, and/or would serve as a "sealer" to prevent blotching if you should instead decide to try staining (with normal type of oil stain rather than a gel).
If you should try to stain and it seems that there's too much shellac in the wood to allow the stain to penetrate...you can always remove some of it with a little denatured alcohol on a rag.
Just cross your fingers that not too much water collects on it before you get the coloring done and a "tougher" finish applied.
Icy roads are best handled with a set of chains...or studded tires. The latter are illegal here now. The goodle days are gone. <G>
Edited 8/28/2008 11:19 pm ET by HootOwl
Hootowl, I am curious about your masking spraying technique in the photo you posted. Do you just mask the center of the sash and allow overspray an inch or two on to the glass. Is there any special trick or technique to cleaning the overspray off the glass.Thanks for the very helpful explanations in this thread.Karl
Nope. No overspray on glass. No scraping.
I first carefully run a band of 1 1/2" blue painter's tape around the perimeter of the glass. This has to be positioned very carefully so that it covers all of the glass, but doesn't cover any wood. This is the really tedious part of the job. Favorite music or talk show is a great aid.
Next I lay down a sheet of newspaper so that it laps a bit onto that initial blue tape. (Fold it to size cause that's quicker than cutting. Turn the folded edges under. ) Then tape the perimeter of the newspaper to the initial band of tape. No need to get fussy, just tape it down. But do tape the entire perimeter of the newspaper as any unsealed seam will allow material to spray/blow right under and then you'd have finish on the glass.
Spray away. The air-cap/nozzle of my HVLP gun allows me flip from a round pattern to a fan pattern with a quick 45 degee turn of the air-cap. I start out by using a round to shoot the inside edges of the wood frame and then flip to a fan to cover the face of the frame. Both of these are adjusted down to a size that suits the job at hand. IOW, no sense or need to shoot a 6" wide fan for a frame that's 2 - 3" wide. That would waste material for nothing. I find the right fan width and then just flip from fan to round without tweaking the width of the pattern again.
After all the coats of color and finish are applied, I allow the final coats of finish to dry/cure for an appropriate amount of time. For polys, this would be at least overnight, if temps are 65F or higher. Since there will likely be a film/layer of finish lapping from the wood over onto the tape, I carefully and very lightly run a sharp utility knife point down that junction to slice that film and then I pull the tape. This insures that yanking the tape won't yank any finish off the wood. (Polys would not be truly cured at this point, although they are safe to handle..with some reasonable care. Takes a few weeks for them to fully cure...if temps are moderate or better. If temps are colder, it'll take longer yet to reach full cure and hardness.)
PS- Neither oil-based polys or waterbornes fare well with freezing temps while curing. Gotta keep those temps up higher than that. WB's are very sensitive to temps and humidity levels during application and curing. I mention this so that you don't install uncured finish into a freezing cold house and then head home. Wouldn't advise that unless the finish has had at the very least...ten days of moderate temps. Two weeks plus would be better.
Edited 9/8/2008 10:49 pm ET by HootOwl
HELP again! So, the windows arrived & today they started to install them. I must live in the backwoods, but nobody carries Zinsser Seal Coat here. All that is sold here is Benj Moore / Min Wax / Varathane & Old Masters products. Can you suggest an alternate conditioner / sealer that would best hold the windows for a couple of weeks? The plumber that is installing the Geo Therm heating system has been awol for the last week, so the electrical is backed up and it is getting cold & damp - so based on your cautions on cold & humidity, I will need to wait til the heat is on to stain & finish. I guess at that point I would do a second coat of the conditioner/sealer?
A workable alternative all depends upon how you intend to color these windows (which type of colorant....as in stain, dye or either of these suspended in a clear coat). Remember what I described was using the liquid trans-tint dyes suspended in SealCoat (shellac).
If you have to change what you will use for an initial sealer, then the whole coloring game may well change. Can't mix and match at will, but rather must use types of products that are compatible...not only with one another...but with the whole scheme/system.
First you must decide how these wndows will be colored....or how they will not. Then and then only can the whole game plan be written.
If you intend to be back there in two weeks time...consider just leaving them as they are; naked to the world for now. (Better that than to shoot yourself squarely in the foot by applying the wrong thing.) Bring the SealCoat back with you and apply a single coat then. In the meantime, decide how it is that you are actually going to color the wood. If you're not going to spray them, then the process I described is out. A new plan must be devised.
As I am not being able to purchase Seal coat here only the regular Shellac (waxed) - I have been to 3 different paint specialty stores no one has ever heard of the Seal Coat. Lee Valley sells shellac flakes, but making my own, decanting to get the wax off etc, seems like way too much for a beginner, so I think spraying is out. After testing a bit using Old Masters stain controller as a conditioner, then Benj. Moore oil penetrating stain in Harvest Maple, I get pretty close to the colour we want, as long as I don't leave the stain on too long. One store recommended using Varathane Diamond Kote poly (water based) as it is much harder than the BM Polycrylic. The next place said it was risky to put Varathane wb over Benj Moore oil stain. They say to use the BM Stays Clear poly which is new and replaces the ofl BM Polycrylic product. It is supposed to be good enough for floors & comes in a low lustre. I bought test can tonight, but haven't tried it yet. Tonight I tried a test stain on a piece of white knotty pine casing to see if I could get it to match the southern yellow pine of the windows to match ( the syp is much nicer ) - got close, but no cigar. So that is where I am at for the moment. Think this combo could work?
Edit - just been doing some reading on analine dyes but the Lee Valley description of techniques is kind of confusing. It appears like there are a few more steps involved. I think I see how each coat would allow you to control the colour better, but it bounces around a bit with sanding sealer, wash of shellac (doesn't specifiy waxed or dewaxed) or laquer, then if you are finisihing with a WB urethane (is this the same as poly?) says to use a sealer first so the dye does not run. Might go into Lee Valley tomorrow.
We have decided to leave the windows for a couple of weeks in order to get the heat working rather than risk cold & humidity. So I guess I can keep stressing out on this longer. If only the plumber/heating guy would show up again!
Edited 9/12/2008 12:40 am ET by confused2
As I am not being able to purchase Seal coat here only the regular Shellac (waxed) -
That would most likely serve as an acceptable substitute for SealCoat. The major difference being that (as you pointed out) regular shellac still contains the natural waxes. There has been and remains some controversy as to how much the wax actually interferes with the bonding of certain other clear coat finishes that might be used over the top. Fact is that for years I used the regular stuff without a single negative incident, even when overcoating with oil-based polys and such. Same for other finishers I know. Dumb luck? Maybe. But since it became readily available, I use the SealCoat because the waxes have been removed and because it's ready to shoot right out of the can (no thinning necessary). Consequently, I will always recommend the SealCoat to others, too. Less muss, less fuss and no worries about overcoat bonding. That and the fact that as finishes change formulation to meet VOC regs, what worked 20 years ago...may not work today.
You can easily decant the waxes from regular shellac by pouring the shellac off into a glass jar and then just let it sit. The waxes will settle to the bottom. The longer it sits, the more of them will settle out. Then carefully dip or siphon off the clear stuff at the top. Leave it sit for a minimum of a month would be my recommendation. Two months and most all of it should be settled. Since that isn't applicable/doable in this instance, you can tuck the notion away in your memory for potential future projects if you need to make up your own....or happen to have a can of the regular stuff that's been sitting around on the shelf for a while. Carefully open the can and siphon off the good stuff without agitating the contents.
One store recommended using Varathane Diamond Kote poly (water based) as it is much harder than the BM Polycrylic. The next place said it was risky to put Varathane wb over Benj Moore oil stain.
I can't really comment on this with any authority as I don't use those particular stain products with those finishes. However in my experience, *most* OB & WB stains are compatable with most any type of finish ...if the stain is allowed to fully dry before application of the clear coats. If/when in doubt about any particular combo of products, do a test first... as sometimes there actually are problems combining certain products. I personally try to avoid stain products which force me to avoid certain types of clear coats or force me to use certain clear coats. I have better and more versatile products to get the color I need.
The info you receive from employees at many stores is, how shall I say ?...suspect at the very least.
(I think that sometimes it's some of these so-called wood conditioners that can interfere with the use of certain types of clear coats. )
I think I already mentioned that I used Flecto Diamond spar urethane WB with those pine windows I colored with the trans-tint. Has UV inhibitors to better insure colorfastness when used on window wood.
Tonight I tried a test stain on a piece of white knotty pine casing to see if I could get it to match the southern yellow pine of the windows to match ( the syp is much nicer ) - got close, but no cigar.
I'm not surprised in the least. This is one of the reasons I recommended shooting trans-tints suspended in shellac for coloring purposes on pine... or for matching up different species of wood to the same color. It's easy to do once you get the hang of it and puts you in the driver's seat as regards color. (There are other pro products out there that you could also use for this, but discussing those will only further confuse you..and they require a much bigger investment to boot, compared to the trans-tints.)
Too often I see people try to overcome this color disparity when trying to match up different species by "overloading" (even pooling) the lighter result with more of the stain and then allowing it dry there. The result of that is almost always a very muddy looking result...and frequently those "surface pooled" stain pigments just come loose and smear around when a brush is used to apply clear coats over the top.
Running back to the paint store while they try to tweak your stain so it matches what you're after is often a futile quest...particularly when trying to stain & match different woods. Even if they get the color blend right, the wood may not be able to accept enough of that pigment to do the deed. Then you're back to square one while having spent time and gallons of gas. You could always try that with your project, but don't be surprised if it fails. (Bring both pieces of wood with you, of course)
just been doing some reading on analine dyes but the Lee Valley description of techniques is kind of confusing. It appears like there are a few more steps involved.
Yup. Sure can be, depending. Analine dyes wouldn't be a good choice for your windows anyway. This because they are not all that colorfast....unlike the trans-tints from Homestead Finishing.
but it bounces around a bit with sanding sealer, wash of shellac (doesn't specifiy waxed or dewaxed) or laquer,
Piece of advice and basic rule- don't ever use lacquer unless you intend to overcoat with the same thing. Big time bonding/peeling problems can/will result. And...lacquer is not really an appropriate finish for most windows.
then if you are finisihing with a WB urethane (is this the same as poly?)
Consider them as the same thing...for your current purposes. But I will again advise that you choose a finish product rated for exterior use which contains UV inhibitors for your window project.
Since you are discovering that finishing wood and getting a good result is not just a matter of grabbing any old can of stain and any old can of whatever finish, I would recommend that you pick up a copy of Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" (Amazon). Very reasonably priced & pretty easy to understand. It will help you sort out the bull from the truth when a blue or orange caped paint department employee tells you x,y or z. ..and sort out the appropriate products from the inappropriate products sitting there on the shelf.
Edited 9/12/2008 8:53 pm ET by HootOwl
Thanks again, I will pick up the book you recommend. I also have the Marvin rep looking into supplying casings, so at least that should help with the matching issue.
Sure appreciate you time!
Got the book yesterday - excellent! Opening pages made me feel not quite so stupid that all this has me so confused. Thanks.
You're welcome.
Here's wishing you happy stress-free finishing.
PS- Don't bother spending too much time correcting the guys/gals down at the big-box stores. It likely won't sink in anyway. <G>
Thanks for the email, I am in agreement - also think that a phone should not take pictures, play movies etc. :) lol and that a finish with UV protection is the best choice for my south face windows / patio doors. That gives me 2 available finishing options - Flecto Diamond WB Spar varathane (I believe same as you use) or the Min Wax Helmsman Spar. My preferene would be the WB Diamond Varathane vs the Helmans which is oil based.
You said to first decide on how the windows are being colored - after exhausting finding someone who would/ come out to our remote location, and hubby does not have the time to spray (he is trying to get the foundation enclosed for winter) and I don't think I could really handle the sprayer, I think I have to just hand stain.
Since the only stain I have come up with that gives me the colour I like without a bunch of mixing, is Benj Moore penetrating oil based stain, .... should I stick with the Helmsman spar as it is OB? The varathane says it can be used with either oil or wb stains - but does that mean only their own products? -their OB stain uses soyabean oil. I can't seem to find any info on BM if they contain anything such as sterates that might react with the varathane? People keep cautioning me - stay the same, oil stain, oil finish, WB stain, WB finish. Which is maybe a good rule of thumb, but perhaps overly simplified - if I let the stain dry for several days, then it should be good? maybe? but... all the cautions scare me.
Not to answer for Hootowl but...
You can use the Varathane over any brand of stain. Even the oil based. It's a water borne finish, not water based.
Let it dry for three days as you had anticipated. This lets the solvents evaporate out and not be trapped under the Varathane.
Two coats of Varathane, let cure for three days minimun. More if you can. Then gray scotchbrite lightly to knock the nibs down. 400 grit paper to remove any runs. Clean up the dust and apply a thin third coat.
Don't over brush it, put it on and move on. It will float out nicely.
Spend the money on a very good brush. The foam ones are great for flat doors and such but not on windows with all the corners.
Try a test board if you're really worried.
Thanks, that was my thoughts, just everyone else here thinks I am nuts - I believe the confusion is as you state & I did not pick up on - waterborne vs water based.
their OB stain uses soyabean oil
Doesn't really matter. This type of product would constitute an "alkyd", same as 95% of all so-called oil products on the market these days. In the days of yore, oil finishes were made up of long-oils (mostly boiled linseed oil). These days, linseed oil is an expensive ingredient and so a substitute such as soybean oil is used. Since soybean oil is not a hardening/setting type oil in and of itself (would remain gooey)...ingredients are added resulting in a hardening/setting type product. It is used for paints, stains, etc. and has been for a long time now.
I have to disagree with the notion of using Deft Clear Wood Finish ( a nitro-cellulose lacquer formualted for brush application) for your windows in that...it is not very resistant to moisture at all. If any condensation collects on the windows, runs down and sits on the nitro...it will blush (turn white-ish) and eventually would also self-strip, so to speak. This would also allow the moisture to stain the underlying wood. Not a good thing.
Yes, SW (as well as other manufacturers) has some good catalyzed lacquers and varnishes that one could use....but they have to be applied by spray gun...so if I understand correctly, this is also out of the running. I would be hesitant to use them for this application anyway because they cannot be easily overcoated in the event of damage. After about ten days of curing, nothing wants to stick to them reliably including more of the same. It is not something I would personally do if I had to stand behind the result with my dime anyway. Stripping and refinishing windows is even less fun than finishing them the first time around.
Sounds like someone is likely trying to fill your head with garble by implying or stating that you must use all of their product line or none of it. This may be good for the bottom line of the store, eh? As I said before...if you have any doubts about the compatibility of various stains and finishes....run a viable test first. Apply stain, allow to dry for a day or more at moderate temps (45F or lower doesn't count at all), then apply your desired finish and see what you get. Leave it dry for a week or so, apply a few inches of masking tape across the finish and pull it off. If the finish doesn't peel off, you should be good to go.
Read ( & understand ) your new book. Do it now. <G> It will clarify many things that seem to yet have you confused. Either the folks you're talking to at the paint stores don't really know their stuff...or they do... but are trying to convince/confuse you in order to sell more of their particular product line.
I have read most of the book,- how much I retain is another matter:).
I think I am getting it (at least some of it) I just lack the confidence & practical experience to not let others confuse me.
Got back today, tested out a few samples with & without conditioner (I know you are not a fan, but it really makes a difference on this pine), BM stain, then the Varathane top coat. I will try the masking tape test next week end.
Brad805 has given me a lead on obtaining the dewaxed shellac flakes here, & they also sell the Target dewaxed shellac sealer, which I think would be an alternative to Sealcoat.
If I give them a coat of the dewaxed shellac, and don't get the stain done right away, will I have to do a second coat before staining -if I am hand staining, not spraying? Most of the wood conditioners say to apply stain within 2 hours.
A neighbour came by today and said he had a sprayer - he wasn't sure if it was a HVLP or not - just that is uses a compressor. I am going to check it out. He came by to see if we were interested in some old growth 2" thick Doug Fir that he has bought - taken out of a warehouse for our loft floor. Oh goody, more wood to finish!
The Target brand of dewaxed shellac will be dandy. It's not the particular brand that's important. Zinnser's SealCoat is readily available most everywhere and consequently that product is frequently the one mentioned/suggested.
Whether I'm a fan of wood conditioners or not is irrelevant here. I have methods that I use because they work for me, but you must use what works for you at your skill level, with the tools you have available... and with the products you have available. Different situations call for different approaches. Nothing wrong with that, just different.
I'm perhaps a little confused myself at this point. If I understand correctly, you intend to use some wood conditioner, then stain the wood, and then scoot outta there for the winter. ????
But then you seem to speak of using some dewaxed only, hitting the road and then return in spring to stain and finish. ??? You wonder if you should apply more dewaxed before staining at that time. It's one or the other usually; either the wood conditioner or the dewaxed as a "stain controller".
If you use a thinned down application of dewaxed for a "stain controller"...the application must be kept "thin" or it will prevent the wood from absorbing enough of the stain pigments to suit. It's an absorption blocker is what it is. ..just like wood conditioner. Consequently, if you apply a coat of shellac now and then another coat in spring before you apply the stain, you would likely be shooting yourself in the foot. The wood most likely wouldn't be able to absorb enough of the stain. (When I use shellac as a sealer and then shoot trans-tints over that.....it's a whole different process than staining the wood.....even though some of the same products are used. It's how and for what purpose they are used that matters.)
Another consideration for your circumstances is that if you apply a layer of shellac now and return in the spring...you may find that condensation has formed on the windows in your abscence and that some mildew has established itself. Shellac has alot of protein in it. That protein will serve as a food source for the mildew or other fungi that may establish themselves.
Given the timing of all this, I'm inclined to think that you may be best off to use the wood conditioner and the stain and then leave it at that for now ...unless time and circumstances also allow the application of a coat of varnish. Then again, if you can't get all your coats of varnish down before departing...you'd need to scuff sand that first coat when you return, before applying additional coats, to insure a good bond. Perhaps conditioner, stain and boogey out is the best route under the circumstances. Impossible to know with certainty without a crystal ball. Misplaced mine a couple years back and still haven't found it. <G>
Not so sure that trying your hand at spraying these is a good idea right now....if you don't already have some spraying skills...and since time is short. It usually takes quite a bit of practice to gain complete control of a spray gun and the end result of using it.
Edited 9/22/2008 9:57 am ET by HootOwl
Sorry to be spreading my confusion around. I am bouncing as new info comes up - and so much is dependant on the weather that I am doing back up plans if this, than that.
I think I can use a conditioner or the thinned dewaxed shellac, then stain and get this done now. I don't think I can get the top coats on - as I really would prefer the WB varathane Diamond stuff, but... it is getting cool at nights and a fair amount of rain. Also, the soffit /eaves are not fully completed, so the place fills up with little bugs & flies looking for heat which like to sit on the window sills. Don't really want to have to sand the little guys out much.
The plumber who is installing the geo thermal heat system is behind, so we have our fingers crossed that we will actually have heat this winter. The electricians should be done early next week, wait to inspection, then we can tackle the insulation. If this can all get done before the ice comes in, then I could start picking away at the top coat over the winter. If we lose our window for the insulation /heat system, then I think I am hooped til spring to finish.
Any recommendations on filler for the nail holes? I tried the Minwax stainable stuff, but it is so yellow even after sanding well, that it shows the stain.
Any recommendations on filler for the nail holes? I tried the Minwax stainable stuff, but it is so yellow even after sanding well, that it shows the stain.
Sure...all those fillers say they are "stainable". None of them guarantee a match, eh? <G> And for good reason. They rarely do. lol
Tough call and frankly ... getting a match there that will last with the passage of time is hit or miss and very dependant upon both the filler and the stain being used.
The wax crayon type fillers may be your best best. This way you can choose one (or blend different colors together) to get a match to your stain. Ideally, you place this before applying your clear coats so that it has a layer or two of finish over it. Fill holes and buff off the excess with a paper towel before finishing. This way the waxy nature of the stuff doesn't have access to air-borne dirt which can/will want to collect on it if it's applied last of all and has no finish over it.
However... since you intend to use a WB finish rather than an OB finish, any contamination of the surface from wiping off the excess will interfere with adhesion of the WB. So...you might actually be better off to fill them last of all.
Another alternative is to use colored shellac sticks to fill the holes. Need a hot knife of some type to melt them and fill the holes, then sand excess back or remove excess with denatured on a cloth, then finish. Either of these clean-up procedures can/will raise havoc with the surrounding stain on the wood.
And there are other alternatives involving mixing a tad of the stain with some epoxy and filling with that. This too, can get involved.
Another alternative would be one of the pre-colored paste wood fillers. Gotta know the final stained wood color before choosing one though and don't count on it matching everywhere... cause the immediately surrounding wood will vary in color from one hole to the next. But that holds true for any filler you use.
Consequently, all things considered......... I'm thinkin' that wax crayons may be your easiest approach in this instance.
(This is another reason why I like coloring with the trans-tints in shellac. I can fill the nail holes with clear epoxy and when I shoot the TTs over 'em....they match the surrounding wood as well as anything you could use.)
I'd bet if someone could come up with an easy, fail safe solution to these types of issues, they would make a fortune! I think it is all a conspiracy to keep the consumer buying lots of different trial products etc. - or maybe they are in cahoots with contractors so that HO's give up & hire the work out - lol.
Thanks once again HootOwl.
or maybe they are in cahoots with contractors so that HO's give up & hire the work out
We can begin discussing labor fees, transportation costs and living expenses whenever you like. Oh...and profit margins, of course. <G>
I'll toss in the consulting fees thus far for free. <G>
Edit: Another alternative would be to use a wood filler product before staining (a filler that either doesn't stain dark enough or doesn't stain at all), then apply one of your clear finish coats and then use furniture repair/touch-up pens (these are like a felt-tip pen) to color over the nail hole fills after the fact. Apply second coat of clear finish to protect the color. Can't tell you where to go to acquire these pens as my supplier requires an account and there is a VERY substantial minimum order. Woodcraft might offer them. Just don't know for sure. There are not something that you would likely find at the big-box or a paint store.
Perhaps a viable alternative would be to mix some trans-tints in a little bit of shellac ( like a tablespoon) and apply that with an artist's brush. Tedious, for sure. Allow to dry for an hour and clear coat.
Edited 9/23/2008 11:56 am ET by HootOwl
Oh...and profit margins, of course
I am a Canuck - we don't talk about profit in polite company & tend to apologize when we have any. lol
Don't get me wrong - I understand the cost of doing business - we run our own small business. You don't work for free (although sometimes we do) & a business owner doesn't go into business, take on all the risks & headaches without an expectation of financial reward - or at least make a decent living.Why else would you do it?
It just seems to me that products/ system are designed overly complex & to break down in order that consumers must buying new things. Example - light bulbs - were not the original ones designed to last basically forever? Why does an Ipod only last 2-3 years? Why is the tax system so complicated? - so that you have to hire an accountant, which creates employment, which increases tax revenues to pay for government programs which provide more employment, which provide more tax revenues to...... It's all a nasty circle. The world is so complicated -
I have issues (surprise) when you need to have a degree in chemistry to sift through the underlying indegrediants instead of being able to rely on accurate product labeling and truthful advertising. This goes for all products, not just paint/stain etc. We need more clarity & open disclosure. and truthful advertising.
I hate always having to either guess if the advice I am getting is good & solid or research everything to death to figure out if I am being sold something because the salesclerk gets a bonus for certain products or if they are just spewing out ###... I had a guy at the paint store tell me he knows for a fact that UV rays do not go through glass. I told him to come & look at my faded out leather couch. Idiot.
Whew, I feel better now.
we don't talk about profit in polite company
This is BT and I can assure you there is little polite about it often enough. lol A few mintes in the Woodshed Tavern will convince you if you haven't been there yet. Bring your hardhat. <G> Worse part of that is....we like it that way. Gotta vent somewhere and I ran out of relatives who would listen a long while back.
Example - light bulbs - were not the original ones designed to last basically forever?
When bulbs were free here from electric company they lasted literally for years. The ones we buy now last several weeks. Profit motive at play perhaps? <G>
OMG! What's an i-pod and how have I survived so long without one? lol I'd best scurry down to the store and buy one more thing to waste time fiddling with...that I don't need...that costs big bucks. Don't wanna seem unpatriotic afterall. (Heck, the radio went out in my truck 7-8 years ago and still is. Somehow I struggle thru despite this hardship. <G>)
We need more clarity & open disclosure. and truthful advertising.
Good luck with that.
I hate always having to either guess if the advice I am getting is good & solid or research everything to death
That's what BT is here for. And...it's free. <G> If you take the time to research everything to death these days...by the time you're sure which one/what to buy...it's probably not available anymore or some major component has changed anyway. A little research and then into the pool with ya. Keep your nose plugged cause the chlorine burns sometimes. <G>
I had a guy at the paint store tell me he knows for a fact that UV rays do not go through glass.
RFLMAO And this surprised you? Pretty common occurance, I'm afraid. This is cause these folks spend too much time fiddling with their I-Pods (and nether regions) instead of learning things that are useful. <G>
Edited 9/23/2008 3:18 pm ET by HootOwl
If you take the time to research everything to death these days...by the time you're sure which one/what to buy...it's probably not available anymore or some major component has changed anyway.
That's why normally I never buy anything & do without. By the time I make my decision, I have to start all over again with the research.
A little research and then into the pool with ya - That 's my problem! I never jump into the lake - always dip my toes, then slowly ease in and only when the water is warm & the air hot.
Never been in the Tavern - scared to go there from all I read about it.
The paint store droid had it partially right. Glass stops some of the UV rays from passing through. Not all of them. Also, portions of the visible spectrum can fade your furnishings without any help from the UV band.Hootowl is giving you really good information; he knows his stuff.Earlier in the thread somebody mistook your mention of an ice road to mean an icy road. If I understand correctly, you must get in by boat in summer, and can drive on the frozen lake in dead of winter, but the in between times are not very accessible, right?Bill
I think I need to go back to science class <g>
That's correct re the roads. In the shoulder seasons, we can take a 30 minute hike in through the bush if the snow is not too deep. Pic of ice road attached.
I agree - Hootowl's advice (and his patience) is superb for a newbie.
Edited 9/24/2008 10:10 am ET by confused2
Try this picture again.
Hootowl,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I don't know why I didn't notice the blue tape in your photo until you pointed it out.Great info.Thanks again,
karl
Excellant.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Do what Piffin said to do.
The Zinser seal coat is best to use if you're painting pine. It covers the knots really well and they don't show through later. However, it's still a great sealer for any finish.
If you are staining, it still has benefits. It will even out the finish, preventing blotching. But it prevents the color from full penetration - the wood has been sealed. Which means you either need to use a darker color or more coats. I personally don't like several coats of the polyshades. It starts to take away from the wood look you're going for and it starts to look like fake, plastic wood - not a good look.
The route you're going is fine, with the Zinser sealer and polyshades finish. Just test the color on your sample. Also remember you really only have about 1 1/2 coats on the windows if you just use the seal coat (this is the half coat) and one coat of the polyshades.
Joe
Joe, at the risk of starting yet another debauchery, I will esplain why these myths are wrong.
Poly..OB or WB is BEST on raw wood, period. It really has to do with the surface bond, and it is NOT intended nor designed for use over a sealer, such as any shellac. It is a film forming finish, it does not burn in. Period.
LONG oil varnish, such as Helmsman Spar and some Varathanes,and ZAR, have enough esters that they bond with Shellac ( of which, Sealcoat is, just that the refining has renedered it inert, waxically and color wise)..and even if, it wasn't sealcoat, and was waxed ( which in it self is a misnomer, no wax is added, and it isn't even a true "wax' ( sub parenthesis, is "wax", can be animal or vegetable, or ear)'''
Where was I?
Ok, Poly wants raw wood, stain in poly, in layers, is a mask, a shroud of the wood, it blocks the clarity of the grain by laying on top, like thin paint...opaque in mass. Keeping a consitant mix (in solution) of the pigment is a chore..so additives are added to isolate the pigment molecules from ever amalgamating or hyrdrating to thier fullest extent, so they become little islands of color that can or cannot be in solution or fully absorbed by the solvent, which carries the resin to allow transparency with light refraction quality(s). Read "Depth"
Again,OIL soaked into wood, followed by OIL, gives compatico, on many levels, Shellac is a barrier and a finish, and an emulsifer in some applications, it's compatibilty with WB Poly is only because of it's hydroscopic nature, thats why it gets cloudy in the presecence of H20..it is NOT gonna absorb or amalgamate with a short oil, or coalescing urethane, it'll de-laminate as the shellac "moves" and the short oil ( Minwax, OB Poly is cross linking polymers) will remain ridgid.
Then we add UV inhibibs, Shellac has ZERO tolerance to UV degradation, it gets dark and gummy..bug exudate, sweat, poop, excretions, call it what you will, it is a vegatable wax that hardens with age, and discolors, and eventually feeds the microcosms of spores that make it into something else.
Keep it in the dark, shellac will last for eons. Like hide glue tho', it is food.
So witha ll that said, if a person had a penchant for anabolic finish..go for it, but in the big picture, a very dilute seal( read grain raise, because the alcolhol solvent will attact humidity, and thus raise the compressed grain from tooling) and proper sanding, to remove ONLY the raised grain,and slightly slow the absortion of the exposed end grain in figured wood, shellac is the GO TO. But over sanding,and removing the now raised grain, is what causes subsuquent hassels.
Damm, I could write a book.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Damm, I could write a book.
You could title it "A Short Read for a Long Night's Sleep"
Thanks, I 'll keep you in mind in my dreams.
I'm amazed at the mis-info being shed by some posters of the miracle finish and compatibilty issues that are inherent in all finishes, geeze, ya'd think we were still drinking cow's milk for children!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Thanks for the scientific explanations, I have re-read it 5 times now, some things makes sense, other bits I am not sure what you are really saying. So...this is how I am understanding it.
"Poly wants raw wood, stain in poly, in layers, is a mask, a shroud of the wood..." - I get this & why. Polyshades = bad
I think you are also saying, that using 1. ) Zinsser Seal Coat as a wood conditioner on pine, then 2.) water or oil stain, than 3.) a water based Min Wax Polycrylic fast drying or Oil based Polyurethane is still bad as the Seal Coat is flexible & moves but the Polycrylic or Polyurethane is rigid & will not move. This will cause cracking in the future needing repairs (or left to look bad).
But if you were to use 1.) Zinsser Seal Coat as a wood conditioner, then 2) oil based stain, then 3) Helsman spar to finish - it could work as the spar is long oil & will bond with the Seal Coat and both flex & move together.
I think using Helmans Spar address the issue of non UV protection of using Shellac as the finish. (I have lots of south facing windows)
Also acceptable would be using 1) Min Wax WB pre-stain conditioner, 2) Min Wax WB stain, 3) then Min wax Polycrylic (WB)
I'd buy a book if you were to write it Ibut you would need to "dumb it down" for me - Staining for Dummies :)
ANY sanding sealer is used to raise grain, seal, and prepare raw wood for finish coating....without mentioning the list of proper painting procedures let's say you would apply, allow to dry...really dry, do not rush any steps...then sand w/ a fine sandpaper [150-220], tac rag up all particles...repeat. then i would top coat w/ any brand of "oil" based clear coating. the sanding sealer will have darkened the wood some so i hope you like that shade. but if you are after a polyshade TM. color you would be best served just following the minwax system [preconditioner, then the polyshade of your chioce] always read the instructions on the can, thet reveal all you need to know about the proper use of the product, includeing all recommended pre steps and products to use....use a magnifier if you can't read the quart can print size. always use a new and proper brush, pretreat w/ the product's vehicle, usually just thinner. plan how you will move your work around and to where before you start. throw away latex gloves are a must and don't be afraid to just peel'em off and put on a fresh pair as they get sticky. always apply multiple thin coats of these oil products....sand and tac in between...be patient....allow dry time...ventilation...maintain a wet edge. this time invested will make any wood project look like a million bucks and you will be proud of what you've done. good luck
Thanks to all for the tips. I need all the help I can get!
I have been looking at the Sikkens Cetol interior stain / coating products. We have had good experience with their exterior deck product, but have no idea on the interior - they sound good & would do double duty for the timbers & beams that will need doing.
They do not mention using a wood conditioner, and in fact says not to use anything under them - so that part concerns me a bit. Anyone ever use these?
Personally, for windows (where UV light is an issue) for clear coats I prefer the newer nitrocellulose lacquers. SW makes a good one. The use vinyl sealer as the seal coat.
These hold up the best to sunlight.
Thanks for the suggestion. I had not considered SW -but just searched & find there is 1 SW store around here.
One thing I keep forgetting to ask, is... for future touch up, re coats etc. What top coat product is easier - with just a clean, light sand & recoat as opposed to full strip off & start all over again? Helsman oil spar urethane, varathane Diamon WB urethane, or ??
Nitro lacquer by far, it'll melt into the old coat.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
Just called the SW dealer here, got passed onto the "expert" who has never heard of it. Said to use Helmsman spar for UV. It may be like the Sealcoat - not available in Canada. col (crying out loud)
Try to find "Deft" at any hardware store or big box. Unless it's outlawed up there or something it should be available.
Google thier website and find a local dist. in your part of the country.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
Thanks - AAAAARGH! I think I need to mvoe! No retailers - but... the photo in the trade retail site is the colour /look I am trying to get to.
Just so you know I don't spend all my time stressing on this.... the Elton John concert tonight was fabulous! Blast from the past.
Here is a start.
Deft
Manufacturer of fine wood stains and finishes plus commercial and military specification coatings.www.deftfinishes.com/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
The Wood Finish People
Inc
Professional
More results from deftfinishes.com »Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
The world of people goes up and
down and people go up and down with
their world; warriors have no business
following the ups and downs of their
fellow men.
I see you are in Canada. Wood Essence (Saskatoon) sells dewaxed shellac flakes in many color variations along with all sorts of tints. Great shipping and I bet if you call him he would courier you product very quickly. I recieved my package in days via ground. I would kind of equate Wood Essence to the Canadian verion of Homestead finishing. Too bad Jeff Jewitt does not ship to Canada.
Umm, Hellsman spar is not like sealcoat. Stop talking to that salesman. Sealcoat is available in Canada. Talk to a professional floor finish company. Flooring finishers are one of the biggest users of the product. Thats where I found mine. I bought a few gallons, but since finding Wood Essence, I will go to shellac flakes. Great seal coat product.
The other thing with Shellac flakes is you will not find denatured alcohol in Canada. Many advise against the typical BORG type methanol for health reasons and it dries very fast. 99% Pure Isoproponyl Alcohol is what we get here. Its a little slower to disolve the flakes, but not too bad.
Brad
Thanks Brad805 for the lead to Wood Essence! And also for the denatured alcohol tip - I had discovered it was unavailbe here, but did not know the replacement.
you welcome. Dont be surprised if you are asked what you intend to use the Iso for. I learned that it is used for meth production, so I was quizzed. Methonal disolved the flakes in about 15min, and Iso takes about 30 - 45min (with regular mixing), less if you grind up the flakes.
I quickly scanned (sorry too many posts of lengthy discussions) the discussions and I cannot see if this is reno or a new home. If a new home why are you insistent on finishing before install? It may seem like less work now, but if you have any drywallers, painters or floor finishing going on you may end up touching this up anyway. Its not really that big of a deal to tape up the area near the window (unless they are huge) and finish in place. I would not rush this process. If your window frames are a different wood species than the trim, it will take some testing to get them to match. My windows were Hem-fir and I was using Cherry trim. I must have tested around ten options before I liked it. Just an idea, sorry if I am repeating something others have already said.
Good luck.
Brad
New build & the windows are now in. The rush is we are remote water access, so in a couple of weeks, we are out of business, til the ice roads are in late Dec or early Jan., so I don't want to leave them bare that long. Where do you buy the iso?
IC, makes sense. I found the Isopropyl Alc at a hardware store, but if you do not have luck there another good place is vet supply stores. Medical stores carry it too, but for the most part that is about 70% pure and does not work plust it is usually in small quantities.
I am not sure I would worry about spraying. Hootowl clearly has a lot of experience and if you do not it might not work out. I bet you start chatting about toning, glazing or anything along those lines, and he has done that. The beauty of shellac is future coats will disolve into the last coat. It might be just as easy to get a good brush from Jeff at Woodessence, tape up the windows and get er done. Since you plan to stain in the future, you are probably looking for about a 1lb shellac cut or so and at that consistency it is pretty hard to mess it up. As to the winter protection of such a coat, I have no idea.
Good luck.
Edited 9/22/2008 3:14 am ET by brad805
Edited 9/22/2008 3:16 am ET by brad805