As part of our basement remodel, we want to stain the concrete floors.
We’re probably going to use the Kemiko line of products.
How necessary is it to apply a finish coat? Be it epoxy or even just wax?
I imagine it’s just to give it a sheen, correct?
As it is, this is an OLD basemement floor that is contaminated with bits of paint, old mastic, and I’m guessing any other number of items. We’ve done a fairly good job stripping it, but we’re not expecting any sort of smooth finish. We’re very much going to play with the whole ‘raw mottled stained patina’ thing.
While I’m not against finishing, if it’s not necessary, it seems that it’d save us some work down the road. Epoxy sealers appear to NOT be DIY products, and the wax systems look easy enough to apply, but would require maintenance every few years with hauling out furniture, stripping, reapplying and buffing…and given this is a basement, I don’t feel like hauling things out of there every few years just to buff the floor.
So…any major reason to seal other than just make it shiny?
Replies
Need to seal it to protect it from massage oil and peanut butter stains... We've used urethane cut with laquer thinner to good effect, had very bad luck with the Kemiko wax. Also tried some of those industrial acrylic floor sealers, water based and watery. Syrene is the brand I remember. But not sufficiently resistant to oil stains and also strangely enough picked up staining from blue painters tape that was impossible to remove! Even rubbing out the finish with an abrasive pad and re-coating with more Syrene didn't remove the tape ghosting. Last job we used the Hood Everlast low VOC product cut wit thinner on the first coat only and it looks great and has held up well.
We've also gone to the shake-on color hardener that gets power troweled into the surface of the slab during finishing rather than the kemiko system. Allows us to pour a 3,500 PSI (instead of 4,500 PSI super plasticized) slab with a harder wear surface and saves worrying about some bone head spilling oil or grout sealer on the slab before we can get it colored (need to wait 28 days min before applying acid stains and need to keep the slab clean until you color it)We also have used iron oxide soil additive from a garden supplyer with mixed luck and have used Minwax urethane glaze colors added to the sealer coat with pretty good results and have also used butcher block sealer with very very good results for a fire place hearth.
Hope this is helpful
M
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
yes, you can do both, epoxy, wax, mop and glow. epoxy is a beech tho.. The seal is what give it its shine, the wet lookBOB is always right, ALL HAIL BOB
Edited 10/7/2007 12:47 pm by brownbagg
I would seal it. What we have used in the past was acrylic clear. Does have high VOC's though. The wax is a pain for up keep IMO.
Any area that you do not stain will not wear good at all. You will wear off the color just by walking and normal wear. Been there done that. Even side walks outside I put a finish. Not to mention it flat out looks bad to see concrete stained with no finish. Looks very flat, dull and no life. It does add a sheen as you say but it brings the floor to life, really pulls the colors out.
After staining and cleaning any residue off the floor you can "see" what the floor will look like by adding water to the floor. Mimicks the finish. before you actually use the finish to see the desired results. Then you can make your own determination whether you want a finish or not.
Like the previous post. Wait a minimum of 28-30 days before an acid stain like Kemiko. That is what we use.
You can call Kemiko and ask them but the only problem you may have with the stain on your floors is what you used to clean or "strip" them as you say. They may inhibit the reaction of the acid on the concrete.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.”
Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
-Truman Capote
By the way on the finish.......
We used a roller with a lambs wool nap. Won't come apart and we just dipped it in the five gallon bucket and rolled away. Easy as pie. Instant good looking floor. Two coats. Stinks to high heaven though.......
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.”
Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
-Truman Capote
so, this sealer you use...is that pretty much a one time do-it and be done thing? If so, then that certainly sounds feasible.FYI, this is 80 year old basement slab. So, yea, I'm assuming the stain will be...umm...ramdom in nature as we apply it ;o)And, actually, I don't think I'd mind peanut butter and massage oil stains anyways. More Patina, right? ;o)I'll look into the acrylic sealer!
I'll look into the acrylic sealer!
That is just what we use. There may even be better products out there. If you used what we did I would turn off all pilots in the house and move for a couple days! :-)
You might be better with a good water based type sealer but ask here, someone may know a good one. You can stay home then.
We use a regular garden pump sprayer, plastic from Lowes for example. Throw away type. Acid will eat the guts up in it. I don't know, $20 bucks or so. Mix the acid in the sprayer as per instructions and start spraying. Be sure to wear PPE. As you start spraying keep a wet edge until whole floor is complete. No puddles. If you think that there is a possibility of the floor drying before you prep another sprayer with product I would get two sprayers and have them both ready to spray. You will get an unsitely overlap line if it drys before you finish spraying then start again. Make sense?Let it dry completely and then do you second coat. Kemiko is a good company to work with and had no problems calling them and asking questions.
A high solids clear on a floor with a couple three coats will last a very long time. Depends on traffic but i would feel confident you wouldn't have any problems with longevity.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
I used a 100% solids epoxy from sherwin williams, I wont never do that again..BOB is always right, ALL HAIL BOB
I think we used a 30%-40% solids.
!00%, huh? Was it a pain? LOL
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
i used the same sealer that is used on VCT tile that you see is super markets... i had a pallet of it and had 10k sf of floor so... i tried it... been 2 yrs and it's held up some kinda cross link something so says the labels... white milky color out of the 5gal jugs says you can burnish it but i didn't..... just wanted some type sealer on it....
seems to have worked
p
pnytl...is that the wax? We have VCT in our kitchen and I put that stuff on once a year or so. Granted, the kitchen gets more traffic.
it's not a wax the label calls it a coss link poly something very liquid ... but i know stuff comes off the floor that get spilled on it
p
Well, the good news is we found a local distributor of the Kemiko, so we're going head down there next week and take a look.
They also recommend an acrylic sealer. I read on another concrete staining site that it's good to put down one coat of acrylic and then one coat of water-based sealer, as the water-based sealers are more durable. Any thoughts/opinions on that?
Also, should we in any way be concerned that this is an old slab and more than likely does not have a vapor barrier underneath? Is sealing the concrete with an acrylic sealer bad if moisture ends up migrating through? Or would that effectively prevent that?
Not an expert, but have had some good very recent experience...
Don't even think about not using a sealer. Like someone else said, it'll go away soon without.
'Poxys are great for indoors. 100% solids (from a good manufacturer - http://www.miracote.com) means there is no room within the formula for a carrying solvent. Which means - as my wife screamed, "I don't want no damn 'poxy in this house and the horrible smell that goes with it!" So's I say, "Come downstairs." She goes into my basement shop just completed, and I say, "Smell anything?" She says, "No. Where's the smell?"
"'Poxys are too difficult for a DIY job?" I ain't about to pay someone to make mistakes when I can do just as well. How much education and experience do you think those illegals at the big boxes have that get rounded up to help with the big jobs? Come on. Laying 'poxy is easier than painting walls. As long as you have the right tools. Meaning squeegies. Specifically notched squeegies. http://www.midwestrake.com
I'm told that 'poxies have about a 6000 psi rating (at tleat the ones I use). The APU sealer ( http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=productdetail&id=15) I use gives a 10,000 psi rating on top of that. Keeps the shine nicer.
Worn, old beat up ceement can be resurfaced with what's called, "microtoppings." ( http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=productdetail&id=16) These can be white or grey, sanded or smooth (like DW mud), tinted as desired, and textured in about any fashion as DW compound. And THEN stained ( http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=productdetail&id=11). And sealed with the APU.
I just re-did my geerage floor that a previous owner had slapped some cheep industrial grey 'poxy on and was peeling off. Shotblasted off the 'poxy, angle ground down any imperfections, chased and 'poxyed the cracks, and heavily powerwashed the whole thing using a spinner. Then I mixed up some Repair Mortar I(http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=productdetail&id=19 ) that can be feathered out and slightly built up along the walls and between the car spots to facilate the rain or snow water drainage out the door from UNDER the car rather than in the walking areas or along the walls. Then I applied 3 coats of MPC smooth white (the above microtopping) with squeegies, sanding and grinding in a few spots to make it smooth. Then the top 4th coat went on Friday via trowel. Saturday, we stained it. The sealer gets applied as soon as I'm back in town. It'll be two coats of the above APU - which is resistant to UV rays.
These are not cheep Home Desperate materials. These are the real things used by pros on commercial jobs. Accordingly, they price themselves out of most retailers. But I see established accounts at these pro supply houses can get rather nice discounts instead of having to pay "pigeon prices" like the rest of us.
What you are really looking for can be found here: http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=installguides
Complete very detailed instructions. Read carefully. When they say a roller should be used, they don't mean a squeegie. And when a notched squeegie is called for, don't waste your time and product attempting other methods. Call the company for the local rep in your area. They are INCREDIBALLY helpful! He'll also tell you where you can get the stuff. Going to one of their training sessions is quite helpful. That rep will tell you where the next closest one is.
Epoxy sounds good, but not sure if I want to invest that much time into the project.We're not sure the floor is going to turn out that great anyways...there's lots of ####...er...'patina' to this old slab. We're going with a very dark marbled black stain. If it looks good, great. If not, we'll get some big rugs. ;o)So, how does the squeegee work? Does the epoxy self level? Compared to an acrylic sealant how much more complex would you say the epoxy method would be?
"So, how does the squeegee work?"
You must not get out much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeegee
Drop the thing beyond the liquid material (so it's curved towards you), and drag. It spreads the liquid evenly across the floor.
The problem with regular squeegies (I better not spell it this way. Google gives a unusual interpretation.), is that the thick epoxy causes the squeegee to ride high to when pulling too fast. The notched squeegee is like a notched grout trowel in that it leaves a calibrated thickness. The your 'poxy becomes self leveling. Just be sure to put enough on and not be too cheep with the material.
Edited 10/10/2007 10:03 am ET by peteshlagor
I tried that squeeze and it did not work. I used a roller with no nap..BOB is always right, ALL HAIL BOB
Acrylic is good stuff. Over the years it has come before as the good stuff for a variety of things.
Any time I hear someone mentioned stained concrete, I attach this dude's website:
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/images/construction/acidetch.htm
He also had some comments on sealer:
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/go/forum/post/421
And he also has a forum where you can ask questions or make comments.
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jt8
"Those who wish to sing always find a song." -- Swedish Proverb
John:EXCELLENT link. Great info on there.The FAQ page is really nice:http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/go/forum/post/421Interesting to know they just used standard Min-Wax Floor Poly for the sealant but discovered that it delaminated over time due to moisture migration.In our case, this being an OLD floor (1927) I'm guessing there's no vapor barrier underneath this thing.As such, I'm guessing we should probably stick with a water-based sealer, eh? Any thoughts on that? What is the drawback to the water based? There does seem to be the no-VOC benefit, of course.I REALLY like how they showed how simple taping can generate the 'grout' lines like that. SO much easier than wet-sawing.In our case, we're not really needing/wanting to go for the tile look, however, I'm now thinking that masking part of the floor in front of the fireplace into some sort of mosaic pattern might be fun...quick/cheap way to build a fireplace hearth.As for the squeegee comment...yea, I deserved that one. ;o)I guess my concern was that its seems as if it'd be hard to spread epoxy with a squeegee with any consistency. I suppose that's what the notched trowel is for? Get an even coat and have it someone self-level?Any thoughts on the epoxy on top of non-moisture barriered slab? Would we likely have the same delaminating issue?Given that I'm trying REALLY hard to get the permit guys to grant me a permit based on the moisture-barrier free wall assembly, I suppose I should stick with the same 'breathable' goal with the floor.
"Any thoughts on the epoxy on top of non-moisture barriered slab? Would we likely have the same delaminating issue?"
Well, it's a crapshoot. If you have no idea of whether moisture is coming thru or not, and you put the 'poxy down, the un-noticed moisture that COULD be present will delaminate ands lift the 'poxy coat.
One does a real simple test to determine if it is or not. (Recall another poster in the GSHP thread mentioning a seasonal watertable lift that only appears from time to time.) Get yourself a nice piece of clear plastic sheeting. 1 to 2 mils is enuff. Tape a piece 3' square to the ceement floor using duct tape along all 4 sides. Go away and come back another day or two later. If moisture is coming thru, you'll see condensation on the down side of the sheet. But some 'poxies can take a little bit, so how much is coming thru? Then a another test is done similarly, but under the plastic sheet is a preweighed tub of Calcium something. After a specified period of time, the tub is removed and weighed. The increase in weight is the amount of moisture absorbed. This quantitates the condition and allows for remedial action - if needed.
Back to that Miracote website. They have a product / system ( http://www.miracote.com/download/Tab%209%20-%20Miracote%20Data%20Sheets/MVERS%20Code%20MIR%20325.pdf) that will control it to a point. This page also describes the CaCl test. Beyond the 15 pound limit, you'll need other things.
That previously mentioned microtopping doesn't have this porblem. The moisture goes thru it. Until it hits the sealer layer...
I guess that I'll be a lone voice of dissent. We have an entry way that has been stained with the acid stains. Soon after it was done, we decided that there was way too much color for us. So I stripped the sealer and went at it with my diamond concrete sanding discs. After much labor on my knees I got the colors muted with some gray concrete color and aggregate showing. We never sealed this again and it looks just fine. There is a lot of traffic on this concrete and I cannot discern any wear pattern in the color. It's now three years old. If I do seal it, I'll use a penetrating sealer that does not build up.
they have all the answers at acid-stain.com
.BOB is always right, ALL HAIL BOB