Replies

1. 
   gstringe | Dec 09, 2007 05:27am | #1

   The simple answer is that a rate of rise detector and a smoke detector can both be just NO switches....but, for the smoke detector, it depends.

   For a smoke detector that is a 4 wire device, you would have 2 for power for the detector circuitry and 2 for the detection loop and hence a NO device. If the zone or loop in the panel is configured for 2 wire smoke detectors, then that loop is power and detection combined and you couldn't put a NO device on it.

   If you were wondering..the old standard rate of rise/fixed temp detector works like this:

   There is an air chamber that is shaped sort of like a small puffy pancake maybe 3 inches in diameter and this chamber is sealed except for a very tiny vent hole in the back..connected to this air chamber is a NO pressure switch. If the air temperature rises slowly, the expanded air will escape thru the vent hole, but if the temperature rise is very fast, then the pressure will build up in the chamber fast enough to make the pressure switch close. This section of the detector will reset when the temperature stops rising or returns to normal. This can be tested CAREFULLY with a heat gun or hair dryer.

   The fixed temp part of the detector is a wire and spring assembly, attached to the NO switch, and held in place by a controlled melting point solder. When it melts, it trips the switch, and then the detector must be replaced.

   Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!
1. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 09, 2007 06:48am | #2

   Interesting. I kinda knew how the device worked but they have change over the years.

   I have a 2 wire set up. So if my heat riser is NO, sounds like I have a problem. Does this apply even with an end of line resistor in place?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

1. 
   maddog3 | Dec 09, 2007 07:06pm | #3

   why are you changing the devices ?.

   .

   .

   ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

2. 
   gstringe | Dec 09, 2007 08:49pm | #4

   Yes, the end of line resistor is just for supervision of the line so that the panel can determine if the line is good out to the end . If the line opens, then the panel will signal a trouble condition. If the line shorts, the panel of course will go into alarm.There are situations where the end of line resistor is put in series with a NC contact so that when the NC opens, the panel goes into trouble. The common use for this is with a 4 wire smoke detector circuit where a relay NC is energized by the smoke detector power at the end of the line. This monitors the power to the detectors to the end of the line.Do you have a spare zone you can use for your heat detector? Are there other smoke detectors on the existing circuit?Here is a url that will explain some stuff about two wire detectors.
   http://imsasafety.org/journal/mj06/25.pdfNobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!

1. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 09, 2007 10:06pm | #5

   Its a situation where we did a MIL apartment and had to hardwire the alarms due to code. When we did the upper part of the house, we now have to hardwire these. So I have 2  two wire smokes already. I have to splice on 3 more smokes and one heat riser(kitchen). If the riser can go in the loop with the smokes, great. If not, I could put it on its own zone. Just was confused as all items I read say fire has to go on one zone only? Thoughts?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

1. 
   gstringe | Dec 10, 2007 12:29am | #6

   From your description, if you have one zone, you must wire it to be one continuous loop with the eolr at the end. Does your code require sounders to be in the smoke detectors? If so, and you put the the NO heat detector in that zone and it trips, that would make the smoke detectors on the loop NOT operate. The panel would be in alarm, but if you are depending on sounders in the smokes to alert sleeping residents, there won't be any alert.Fire zones are 24 hour zones, whereas burglar zones can be turned on or off. You can have more that one fire zone as long as it is a real fire zone in the panel. Is this system monitored?Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!

2. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 10, 2007 06:59am | #7

   We have seperate sirens for the alarm. Code here wants everyone up when the alarm goes off. So if any sensor goes off, we have a huge horn upstairs, one down, and one in the attic to the outside that rip your ears off. Which is good.

   I will check the installer manual, but I think only one zone is 24hour/fire. The others can all be disabled.

   Hey, thanks for the help. Alarms are greek to me but I can learn some of this. And, if I can't will get a pro in. I am totally fire paranoid and always have been. Too many houses went up in smoke in the winter in E Washington on cold winter nights. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

3. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 18, 2007 07:42pm | #8

   Well, back at this again. I put the new detectors in and connected to the old ones and my panel don't like it. I have System  Sensor 2100, two of them, one 135 heat riser and three 2wb smokes. The panel shows a fault on this arrangement. What next? Put the new loop up by itself and see if it will work alone? Compatibility issues?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

4. 
   VaTom | Dec 19, 2007 02:27am | #9

   Been awhile since I owned a security company so I'm not current on hardware.  However, you sure you can't convert 1 or more burg zones to 24 hr?  The panels I was accustomed to allowed that.  Makes trouble-shooting immensely simpler.

   For trouble-shooting a loop, it shouldn't be more difficult than using a VOM.  What's it read?  Independent of the device, each has a switch that must be in the correct position.  Mixing NO and NC would clearly be a problem.  You also need to know that you aren't asking for more device supply current than the panel is comfortable providing.  You can use your VOM on each device switch (with one side disconnected from the loop) to be sure.  

   A very long loop generally isn't a problem to function.  Trouble-shooting can be a PITA.  As you've noticed. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

5. 
   gstringe | Dec 19, 2007 03:17am | #10

   Did you check for compatibility? There is a code on the detector and a list available from the manufacturer of compatible panels. Is the polarity of the wiring correct as shown on the installation wiring instructions included with the detector? Don't rely of colors, ribs etc on the wires, check it with a vom at each detector. Do you only have only one end of line resistor in the circuit? Is the panel in alarm or trouble?Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!

6. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 19, 2007 09:00am | #11

   Going to start the line checking and call on compatibility tomorrow.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

7. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 21, 2007 12:10am | #12

   OK, put on an EOL 2K resistor and check my line, but only get 1K of resistance. Does the panel need to 'see' 2K or just have 2K in line?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

8. 
   gstringe | Dec 21, 2007 01:28am | #13

   The panel needs to see 2k. What does your loop read without the 2k you put in? As you probably know, 2 ea. 2k resistors in parallel equals 1k. Are you measuring the loop unhooked from the panel? When measuring the loop, does it read the same when you reverse the meter probes?Is your panel showing a trouble condition?Is the panel ok if you just unhook the loop and put a 2k on the panel terminals?Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!

9. 
   etherhuffer | Dec 21, 2007 02:09am | #14

   Didn't check that but got another resistor and put it on the loop. I was able to get power up on the smokes and a green light. Woo hoo! Tested the heat detector with a hair dryer and got the alarm to trip, so that is good. I need to get some smoke for the smoke detector. Should I ask the wife to burn dinner:-)?  So as soon as I can test those I will circle back to the existing loop I am trying to add to. I wanted to make sure this new loop worked first. (Crosses fingers)http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

10. 
    etherhuffer | Dec 21, 2007 08:06pm | #15

    Hmm..... A punk and a dead candle don't trip the alarm, and green light is on per tech sheet. How much smoke or where to check? Poloritys looked good. Not sure why the heat would trip but not the smoke. Ideas? I think I'm pretty close!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

11. 
    VaTom | Dec 21, 2007 09:43pm | #16

    Canned smoke available from wherever you're buying your hardware.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

12. 
    etherhuffer | Dec 21, 2007 09:54pm | #17

    Canned smoked salmon work?:-)http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

13. 
    VaTom | Dec 22, 2007 04:38am | #18

    If you get it hot enough.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

14. 
    gstringe | Dec 22, 2007 06:57am | #20

    If you have put real smoke from a punk and candle, it will trip the detector, unless the detector is defective, or dirty.Did you try the test button?Is this a new or used detector?Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!

15. 
    etherhuffer | Dec 22, 2007 08:06am | #21

    New detector. Kind of neat as they can pop off the mounting and the wiring goes directly to the mounting ring.  I see what looks like some sort of trip button. Will look some more.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

16. 
    etherhuffer | Dec 22, 2007 09:01am | #22

    Hey thanks to all of you! I am up and running with all smokes and detectors and all is well! Man, I am amazed at how sensitive these panels are to wiring and the EOL's. I put it together with one EOL and it faulted. Checked the resistor and sure enough it was not right on. It also does not seem to like multiple wattage ratings on the EOL's.

    The only thing left is to program the fire circuit so that both partitions see that zone, as it was only on one zone until we remodeled. That should be in the manual somewhere. Just need to brush up on my Greek for that......

    Again, thanks much!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com

17. 
    gstringe | Dec 22, 2007 07:03pm | #23

    Glad you are up and runnin...yes the panels are kind of picky about wiring etc but of course that is for a reason, so they will work when they need to. The wattage rating of the eolr does not matter so you might have some tolerances that were out of the panels range.Cheers....Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!

18. 
    Gunner | Dec 22, 2007 06:56am | #19

       You can trip most smoke detectors with a magnet held up to the sensor.

     

     

    "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure." Dan Quayle.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x8B6C54ggY&feature=related