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Howdy fellas,
Just wanted to pick your brains on the subject of vinyl siding. It seems as though this stuff is really gaining a lot of popularity around my part of the country (Central TX). Aside from the obvious paint/maintenance reasons, why is this stuff so popular. What does it cost per square to install as compared to other types (ie. fiber-cement, wood, masonite etc.)?
For the life of me, I cannot make myself like this stuff. I’m not sure why, I just can’t and I need to solidify my opinion.
I’m being asked to bid several siding jobs of which a couple are considering the merits of vinyl.
Just curious what you guys think…Thanks in advance.
Any and all experiences are welcome.
Donnie C.
Cunningham Building Co.
Replies
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My experience is as a homeowner/amateur/do it myself installer. I resided a small house and big garage with it. Easy to work with. The most physical part of it was climbing up and down the ladders and dragging the ladders around. On my most productive day I sided one wall and gable end of the 24x24 garage by myself.
I bought the cheap stuff, about $36/square. More expensive stuff is about twice. It was a fix up and sell mid 70s starter house so the vinyl siding went well with it. I do not think vinyl looks good on nicer houses or older houses. But for small cheap houses its OK. Much much better than the cheap crap 12" horizontal hardboard siding so popular in mid Iowa. Or the equally cheap fluffed up hardboard 4x8 sheets with vertical battens of 1x3s used in KC. Cheap trash.
As for tools a sliding compound saw cutting 12" across would be wonderful and essential for commercial operations. Tin snips and a 12" speed square are about the only other special tools needed.
*I think is popular now because 1) who likes to paint?, 2) masonite, etc. has such a bad reputation and 3)it has improved over the years.I do some homebuilding and an currently building my first house with vinyl. It looks very good, but I have a few leaks around doors/windows. I find it hard to believe that no caulking is required around the channels. If anyone knows of any articles on how to install it RIGHT, I would be very interested in reading it. Maybe then I won't have to go behind the "professionals" that installed it.
*Donnie:I agree with you that vinyl just doesn't get it.The best stuff I ever used and I also used it on my house is Hardi Plank. I used the lap siding-it wears like iron and is virtually indestructible. I used a diamond blade in my skil and Bosch makes a good grit blade for jigsaws. Until you get it down labor is high but you will have customers up the ying yang once people see it. Also we did have good luck shooting galvanized nails but on the ends I used nitride coated bits to predrill (3/32"). I found the stuff was quite a bit cheaper than cedar siding and wears way better. You can get it pre-primed-we did it ourselves.Good Luck. Dennis Dennis
*Donnie; Vinyl siding has become much more prevalent here in Maine over the past ten years as well. Because of its relatively low cost, around $40/sq. matls, low maintainance and ease of installation many homeowners are opting to go that route. I always try to discourage my clients from choosing it for several reasons. #1 in my experience, most customers considering vinyl are looking to conceal problems with keeping a finish coat in decent shape on their siding. This is usually attributed to moisture problems in the structure via leaks or ventilation problems and the worst thing i can think of doing is to cover it with vinyl before correcting the problem. Also, if the problem recurs or one begins, you will never know until serious damage has been done. #2 having removed vinyl siding on many occasions to repair or renovate homes, i have been amazed at the amount of insects that use the voids between sheathing and siding as their living quarters. the warm moist air just draws them in and as you know, many insects are quite destructive to framing. Lastly, It just aint wood and never will be! If you decide to go with it, be sure to use a housewrap, tar paper arond windows and doors and caulk your j-channels. Manufactures don't suggest it but they will leak, especially in exposed locations. Good Luck.
*I used vinyl on an old house that had a new addition. The old part originally had asbestos shingles, and of course the addition was in sheathing only. The object was to make the place look presentable, sell it, and leave. Mission accomplished. Several people commented that they thought I had demolished the old house and built a new one in its place.Bottom line--vinyl can be great for a quick fix-it-up-and-sell-it project. You have to remember that most potential home buyers have no concept of the differences in materials; they only know how it looks.However, as some friends have said, vinyl looks okay, but I wouldn't have it on a house I was going to live in.
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Donnie,
Clients want it because of the promise of no maintaninance, of course, and because it is cheaper than most alternatives. Contractors like it because it's cheap and it installs fast with minimally skilled labor. That equals money.
Why try to talk yourself into liking it? I hate it. It's plastic. It's clunky and ugly. It looks fake no matter how expensive the grade, or how skilled the installation. It can look OK from a hundred yards, but who lives a hundred yards away from their house? Unfortunately most people don't seem to be able to see the difference between vinyl and more finely crafted alternatives.IF you can bring yourself to sell and install other things that are ugly, why not the siding as well? Who can say, but I won't do "Vinyl Carpentry" as the manufacturers like to call it.
I don't ever want to live in or build a plastic house. But then again I don't want to live in a new house either. But I will build one (just not out of plastic). Call me wierd.
I just really don't like second-rate stuff. "Good enough" just isn't. Call me picky, call me an aesthete, call me a snob. I just hate ugly stuff. That's my primary objection to the "Uniform Windows Computing Experience" as well.
Steve Zerby
Meetinghouse Restoration
*Jon,>>The object was to make the place look presentable, sell it, and leave. Mission accomplished.<<You ought to be in real estate!>>Several people commented that they thought I had demolished the old house and built a new one in its place.<<Vinyl doesn't belong on an old house. You rest my case.>>The old part originally had asbestos shingles<<Did it? Or did it originally have wood clapboards that some hapless homeowner got duped into covering with the wonder-siding of the moment in the nineteen forties?Steve ZerbyMeetinghouse Restoration
*Steve, you're wierd.Obligingly, Bill
*I knew I could count on you to back me up, Bill ;-)Steve
*Donnie,Vinyl is gaining popularity all over the country. The market share of vinyl increases every year. "Maintenence Free" is the key phrase here. The Idea of never having to paint is just flat out appealing to most people in the fast paced world we live in. People are willing to forego a good looking siding job done by craftsmen to save on the headaches and keep their painting dollars for car payments, vacations, boats, campers and so on.I hate the stuff and have almost given up installing it at all. Around here in VA, if you have a couple ladders, a hammer, a tape and a pair of snips, you can get in the siding business. This fact is proof positive that craftsmanship is on the down hill slide. One thing I always feel like saying when the job is done, and the customer has gone against my recommendations,"Take a good look. This is as good as your house is ever gonna look".If you must install vinyl, don't give into the cheap prices and poor craftmanship of your siding competition. Keep your prices up so you can afford to do the best job that you can with the stuff.
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Steve-
How very presumptuous of you. And how incorrect on both your assumptions. Just when I was thinking the people who use this forum were remarkably tactful and largely sophisticated! Thanks for the reality check.
*I used vinyl on a garage and garage apartment behind my house about ten years ago. While I think that material is appropriate for a garage, I wouldn't use it on my house. It has performed well, at least as well as advertised, but I wouldn't use it again. Since that time, Hardi Plank has become available and that is what I would use now.
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Dave,
See if you can get a copy of Certainteed vinyl siding & accessories Installation Instructions.
I stumbled accross a copy while picking up some shingles at the local roof center.89 pages of info
on pvc-ing corner posts together, installing aluminum
under inside corners, flashing details for the top bottom and sides of windows etc. etc. etc. Here's a
quote from page 22. "In order to be properly protected from pecipation,the substrate may need to be properly flashed around areas such as windows, doors,other openings and corners so as to shed water to the exterior.The siding alone is not meant to be a watertight barrier." Like Kevin says down below seems like anybody who wants is a vinyl siding mechanic. I'm not a huge fan of vinyl either but if your going to but the stuff up why not do it right.I'd be suprised if many of the vinyl or aluminum jobs being done in northern VA come close to what these guys propose as correct installation,those waves don't lie.
Hardie plank 2 thumbs up.
*Fred,Just wanted to know if the siding trade there is still dominated by imigrants. About 15 yrs ago I was doing some sub work in Northern VA and ask about siding work. The super told me that Koreans were doing the siding everywhere and I couldn't touch their prices. It didn't take long to figure out that they were being exploited by the big builders who were probably getting a tax credit. They would come into the country with visions of the American Dream and work for less than minimum wage, only on piece rates. I hope this doesn't make me sound like a biggot, but I feel it is a good example of how little one has to know to be a vinyl mechanic.
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Donnie,
Contrary to most people's belief, vinyl siding is not maintenance free. You should see the hail damage, rocks and gravel from lawn mowers, etc. In addition, I've found the soffit drooping and wavey.
I've had vinyl siding on two homes and would never recommend it unless it was the only affordable option for the homeowner.
Linda
*There's a great and terrifying photo in a past Old House Journal of a vinyl-clad house that was across the street from a fire. The vinyl on the facade facing the fire had completely melted off. hah!
*
Whenevr I hear "Maintenance Free" when applied to anything I immediately think someone is hiding something. Vinyl siding is the best example of this. If you look at the life cycle costs and the landfill space involved, I think vinyl is the most labor intensive. Obviously the first few years it hangs around being less than stunning are fine, but what happens when the wind blows? I am still amazed how I can be in the middle of a wooded trail, miles away from civilization and find pieces of vinyl siding laying around, or stuck up in a tree. There was another post on this topic 6 months ago - check the archives.
-Rob
*Jon,Sorry to have offended you. Really. I just really hate vinyl. I've seen it used really badly on old houses over and over again.I didn't assume about the original siding on the house you did. I asked you if that was the case. I'm not aware of too many instances where asbestos shingles were the original siding.Donnie asked for opinions on this one, so I fealt free to spout off. Again, sorry if offended you,Sincerely,Steve
*Rob,I too am afraid that *most* of the time vinyl siding--or any siding that is applied over the top of a previous layer of siding--is used to disguise the failings of the house without really solving the underlying problems. This summer I peeled cedar shingles off an 1894 Queen Anne that had been put on in the fifties. None too soon either, as it was hiding some major structural damage.To the Mfgs. credit, some of the newer heavier duty versions of vinyl out there have much better nailing flanges and are much stiffer and hang straighter than the cheaper stuff. There is no getting around how it looks and feels, though. I'm just amazed at what people think is good looking. It was all I could do to bite my tounge when my father-in-law proudly showed me his 1920's foursquare clad in fresh grey vinyl on the top half and plastic brick veneer on the bottom half. It looks like a shrink-wrapped elephantSteve
*Vinyl siding is a superior product in every way. The only reason it looks like wood is modesty. Think how awful it would be if you put vinyl siding on your house and it looked like plastic. You would essentially be proclaiming your superiority to your neighbors. "Look at me. I have this fine low maintainance plastic house, and you low-lifes only have wood." Your neighbors would feel inferior and begin to resent you. This attitude could lead to violence. Far better that vinyl siding disguise itself as wood, revealing its superiority only to those educated enough to recognize the quality of construction through subtleties such as the superior aluminum trim and lack of detailing.
*I don't suppose anyone likes the old station wagons or new minivans with the "wood grain"on the side either then,huh?I didn't think so.Stick to your guns on the high quality siding materials Donnie C.
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Vinyl siding, just like most building products has it's lower quality and higher quality options.Since we're having a discussion on Fine Homebuildings website I can only assume we're talking about using higher quality materials in our Fine Homebuilding.
Wolverine sells a smooth finish, double 4 1/2 siding that makes an impressive job. Workmanship ,like in any job , plays a major role. Yes, workmanship in vinyl siding!!!! It can be done. Carpenters take pride in their workmanship using wood sidings , so why not steer away from ordinary vinyl practices and set a standard of quality using vinyl.
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Why not set a standard of not using vinyl?
*Th least worst vinyl house I have seen is one with vinyl siding and REAL wood trim. Looks nice because 1) it breaks the mold. The wood trim allowed the owners to escape the standard color combo package, and 2) it sits about 300 feet back from the road so you can't get too close to it. It is a nicely proportioned house, and it does look nice. Honest.On the other hand, my down-the-street neighbors love their maintenance-free vinyl soooo much that they pay to have it pressure washed twice a year, and they pull out the ladder 3, maybe 4 times a year to snap the panels that come loose back in place. I think the worst, however, it the plain junk-looking dentil molding on the facia. Sad. It's a crappy looking combo that tries to be more then it ever can be. Depends on your priorities in the budget department. You'll find both materials on houses from 75K to 1 mil. You'll find quality installations for both and installers that will butcher both materials. Wood is wood. Plastic is plastic. We all need shelter, and budget and taste show there is a market for both materials.I am a cedar clapboard guy. The majority of what I do is clapboards and wood Marvins. Definitely prejudiced. I will honestly say that vinyl can look nice, if it is a quality installation, no attempt is made to "fancy" it up too much, and the viewer with a critical eye doesn't get too close. It truly would be my last consideraton for my own house. I've never used hardi-plank, but it seems to get excellent reviews on this forum.
*Steve - what's worse is our downstate friends showing us their new vinyl applied over BRICK!! They said that the brick would get dirty looking and cleaning it every few years was a pain.Has anyone noticed how the dirt that does build up on vinyl appears to "track", or that it builds up in the corners, or around penetrations? I wonder if this is a static thing.-Rob
*That must be why I don't get it - I don't understand it's inner beauty.-Rob
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I can't stand vinyl siding. It is just not right...fake, fake, fake no matter what. If you want vinyl siding then don't make it look like wood clapboards. Make it look like something else.
Anyway does anyone know what the actuall life expectency of vinyl is. I don't even know what the warranties are, but what is the life expectancy. Will this stuff last forever. Will we be restoring this stuff in 2040?
I just watched my neighbor install vinyl on his 1960's ranch. Took one guy two weeks to complete the job. I think one guy could have painted the whole house in that time.
I guess with the average homeowner moving every 5-7 years, who cares how it wears, just move and let the next guy worry about the wear and tear of the vinyl.
I don't get it either.
*Vinyl siding is like going on a hot date with Ru Paul ..... what you see definitely ain't what you get. It isn't an honest use of the material ... it tries to look like something it isn't. How many wood clapboard jobs have you seen with the joints one directly above another? Most vinyl jobs I've seen look fake. I've painted more than a few 100 plus year old houses with the original wood clapboards. I seriously doubt no matter how UV inhibitors are put in vinyl siding, that it will last 100 years. It gets brittle and the color fades so you paint it, which pretty much defeats the reason you put it up for in the first place. The space behind vinyl siding makes a great roach motel and the vinyl "cornerboards" make a great transit system for mice. Every time I work with vinyl, I like it a little less. Traditional materials (wood, brick, stone etc) seem to age gracefully while vinyl is definitely not final.
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Kevin, The one thing you need for some of the big builders job sites is good vision.I watched siding go up on a townhouse well after sunset. Only illumination was from a chevy pickup driven up a plank setting on some concrete block.Had to be piece rate or a very tight schedule.
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thanks to info on another forum by Steve M. another interesting point relating to cedar but sure vinyl would be the same. Mositure trapped behind siding can become vaporized in heat and then move through Tyvex into walls, condence (SP) and get trapped inside the wall causing rot to happen faster. A lot of moisture gets trapped behind vinyl siding and it sure heats up in the sun.
*I understand where everyone is coming from. i'm not suggesting that vinyl is a substitute for wood sidings (nor fiber cement siding, nor hardboard siding, etc.). However , as any product on the market it should be accepted as an option as long as customers understand the limitations of its use and history. Having said that , don't you feel it deserves as much ingenuity and creativeness in the installation process as any other siding? I've seen some pretty pitiful installations of all types of siding. In regards to moisture being trapped behind siding (any type) and creating decay problems due to a reaction with housewrap , don't use marketed housewraps, use 15# felt.
*I wouldn't be so against it if it wasn't trying to mimic wood. Make it in some other shape. Maybe 2'x2' panels that snap together. Then design the house with those in mind. Dont take a victorian( or anyother style) and put vinyl that mimics clapboards or shingles on it. It just wasn't ment to be. And stop saying it is maintenance free. I just came from HGTV and their is some poor woman..who's kid drove their bike intot he side of the house and buckled it. Now what? The wood would have absored the impact better and would have left less damage.
*Hi DonnieAs one who has installed much wood and some vinyl siding, I've gotta agree with most posts below, particularly the one that said each time he works with vinyl he likes it a little less.I think what irritates most about vinyl is what it suggests: superficiality; fakeness (trying to be what it isn't); fad; cheap or low cost. Most prideful homeowners (which represents most of us who read Fine Homebuilding or TOH) are really put off by these kinds of images of home ownership.FWIW....the house we are in now is solid brick... and the house of our dreams we are planning on building in 5 years or so....will be solid brick...whatever it costs :-)BestBruce M
*We are building a new home in southwest missouri, and are having quite a time deciding between vinyl and cedar siding. Last weekend, we attended the HBA show and saw a siding material called smart lap II. This looks like a good alternative. Has anyone had any experience, good or bad with this product?
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Detroit doesn't build real wood station wagons anymore due to costs. Both the cost to build the product relative to steel bodies and the up keep of wooden bodies compared to steel bodies. Real wooden station wagons are great looking, but except for sunny southern California they just are not practical compared to all steel bodies. Of course, now we have plastics and composites taking over the car market also just like siding, but the results can be better.
Frank
*Rob,I could just cry. It sounds like they didn't even wait to see if the brick would get dirty. And if the brick would get dirty, would not the vinyl siding? Do these people buy a lot of stuff from infomecials and telephone solicitors?As P.T. Barnum said "there's one born every minute".Frank
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I just purchased my first home. I live in Central Texas as well. My home is primarily brick, but the previous owner installed vinyl siding in the few "wood" areas. Personally, I think our home looks much, much nicer than the adjacent homes that are in desperate need of fresh paint on their dirty, peeling wood. The weather here is so harsh, most exterior paint jobs just don't last that long. Having said that, would I want to live in a home where vinyl siding was the primary exterior material? No way -- nothing looks as nice as wood, but given that my home has more brick than wood, I appreciate the convenience of my vinyl siding where I have it.
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Your home looks better (to you) than the homes in need of paint. Would it look better if those homes were properly maintained? Did the prevous owner have the vinyl siding put on in lieu of painting? How old is the vinyl siding? What do you intend to do when it no longer looks new? Paint it? Tear it off and put on more vinyl? Tear it off and paint the wood siding that is probably underneath? How will you restore the trim that was destroyed in putting on the vinyl? You're lucky that the brick was not covered, too.
*I am not making this up. Just saw new homes in Northern VA with vinyl applied over naked OSB ... no wrap at windows (flanges of vinyl windows nailed to naked OSB), no wrap at inside or outside corners, nothing over band board/rim joist, butt ends of sub floor or bottom wall plates, just naked wood. ONLY vinyl inside and outside corners and J channels, then the siding. Wanna have a lottery or pool? One year? Two? Three (max)? These homes sell for around $140K. Gotta go now ... think I'm gonna get sick.Steve
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Being that this format that we have here is mostly subjective, here are some other insights. If vinyl siding is FAKE because it resembles wood clapboards and/or other lap type sidings , then might we presume that asphalt composition shingles are also FAKE as a result of resembling cedar shingles or slate shingles. How about gypsum drywall being FAKE in relation to it's predecessor, plaster? The fact that most vinyl siding is of a lap type does not necessarily imply that it is trying to resemble wood. (the impregnated wood grain (uhg!!) is not helping me here) Anyhow, siding laps in order to create a natural drainage of water , and to be quite frank I doubt wood was the first material ever to be lapped in order to create a dry habitat. As for the longivity of vinyl siding , only time will tell. I've personally seen the results of years of exposure to some vinyl siding. It wasn't good. Must have been builders grade (whatever that means). Yet I have confidence in the technology that can improve vinyl's reputation. You know,technology like them there engineers that can simulate dimensional lumber with the likes of TJI's and roof trusses use.
*Wanna see something absolutely dredful? I was in a beautiful New Hampshire town a couple weeks ago. You know the kind; the ones that are on the calendars with all the beautiful old home that , it seems , that time forgot. Well one of those majestic old gems had vinyl siding. what a waste! If you afraid of a little work you should not own an old home. Vinyl is final but liquor is quicker
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Hi bclark (may I call you b?)
What a good place to take this discussion!
I've been turning over in my mind the notion of what is fake and what isn't and why certain fakeries may offend while others don't.
Why does vinyl siding rub so many people the wrong way (me included) yet faux grain painting or marbelizing doesn't?
Why do Architectural grade asphalt shingles find their way onto so many older houses whose owners would sneer at vinyl siding?
The following musings are not intended as a slam at anything, rather an attempt to discern why I and others of similar bent recoil at some fakeries and not others.
I think there are several aspects to acceptable fakery. It ought to have some visual/tactile appeal on its own merits, in addition, it ought to succeed at invoking the positive aspects of the material it is trying to imitate. Faux painting is a prime example. It is a rewarding visual amd tactile experience, both in the sometimes astounding accuracy with which it can imitate reality, and as a delightful work of art in its own right. Personally I prefer faux painting that leans more towards the abstract than reality. But I'm not a huge fan of photorealistic art either. But I do admire the skill it takes to do it.
Vinyl does wood badly because it is very different at close tactile and visual range than wood is. And its own inherent qualities (other than the short maintainance benefit) are not particularly appealing. It is flimsy, insubstantial looking and feeling, hollow sounding, not good at holding fine detail, and requires kludgey solutions to waterproofing the joints. In short it offers little aesthetic appeal on its own, and imitates its intended original badly.
I think plastic is best at being plastic.Someday maybe someone will realize this and build a house in a bulbous bondi blue shell that will sell 800,000 units in three months. They could call it the iHouse and tout it's ease of use. ;-)
Architectural grade asphalt shingles, I would argue, aren't really trying to fool anybody. Well, maybe the marketers are trying to fool people, but they aren't succeding. They market them as looking like wood shingles or slate, but they don't even come close. Yet they have a visual appeal on their own merits. They have geater depth, variety, texture and shadow than conventional 3-tab shingles. I'm considering them for my 165 year old house that originally had wood shingle roofing, not because I think they are an acceptable imitation of wood, rather because they are better looking and longer lasting than conventional asphalt. That said, I wish I could afford wood shingles or a standing seam metal roof.
Drywall has evolved from being a poor imitation of plaster to a different tactile experience in its own rite. Good drywall is perfectly planer and smooth. That can appeal to the anal retentive in us. Plaster is a diferent experience. It's modulated and textured and accoustically very different. Personally I like plaster better, but I also get a little rush when I step back and look at absolutely flat and perfect drywall. I think blueboard with plaster skim is the worst of both worlds. Expensive, yet unexpressive.
Just some food for thought.
Steve
*I posted this some time ago re fake wood floors. It may be worth repeating here. The original is located at http://www.taunton.com/breaktimearch/messages/688.htmPosted by Mike Mahan on April 08, 1998 at 12:38:34:In Reply to: Pergo,Wilsonart,or Mother nature posted by Dave Smale on April 08, 1998 at 00:52:37:The reason that you are having trouble making up your mind is thatyou are receiving mixed meanings from these materials. As builderswe express architectural form through the use of materials, and that formand, therefore, the materials of its construction/expression carry meaning. There has been a good deal written lately about real and fake environments,but little of this discussion has focused specifically on the use of materials. This discussion has given us the word ‘simulacrum’ (plural - simulacra)to describe an environment which imitates a nonexistent original. Disneyland’s Main Street, for example, is not just an imaginary place,but a representation of an imaginary place.The line between real and fake is often a very fine and elusive one. In a recent book TheUnreal America: Architecture and Illusion, Ada Louise Huxtable criticizesthe fake, but in my opinion is often fooled herself. She categorizesNew Urbanism, specifically Seaside, as fake but suggests that WolfgangPuck’s pizzas and Häagen-Dazs ice cream are ‘real food’. Theymay be better and more up-scale than Pizza Hut and Tastee Freeze, but morereal? She suggests that Disney’s Winnie-the-Pooh is a poor representationof the original, without pointing out that Milne’s original is itself arepresentation. I point this out to illustrate the difficulty thatexists in distinguishing the real and the fake.We must distinguish between imitation and deception, between the fauxand the fake. Kimberly Dovey’s essay “The quest for authenticityand the replication of environmental meaning” in the book Dwelling,Place, and Environment illustrates a number of issues.He defines fakery as the ‘replication of environmental meaning throughthe manipulation of appearances. (p. 34)’ He begins by demonstratinghow changes in meaning occur, by the example of how window shutters havemoved from operable, to inoperable, to an applied decoration that is nolonger even the right size to cover the window. The meaning of ‘shutting’is lost, but this decoration still evokes a shared meaning of ‘window’(pp. 34-36). He suggests, that when fake materials exist that cannotbe distinguished from real, it may be ostentatious to insist on the real,it is not ostentatious to insist on knowing the difference. Awareness ofdeception is fundamental to our experience of the world. (p. 39).There is also a satisfaction that comes from the imperfection and varietyof real materials. The grain and color variations of real wood,stone and brick and their ability to age gracefully make them desirableand lasting materials. Ding your real wood floor and that ding becomespart of its patina; ding your fake floor and you expose its fakeness. A faux wood finish has the character of a real one in its imperfectionwhile it is clearly false; a fake wood finish has none of this characterwhile it is not clearly false. Trompe l’oeil finishes are ultimatelymore satisfying than fake. A wooden column is not a fake stone columnit is a real wood column. Concrete pavers are real pavers made of concreteand are uniform throughout; stamped concrete is fake. Split face concreteblock has the character of stone, but does not attempt the same deceptionas does fake stone. Colored laminates are more satisfying than photo-imagedlaminates.
*Steve:Homes selling for $140K in Northen VA? You mean condominiums?The condominiums (spelling?) going up here in Fairfax county next to me are three stories tall and the vinyl siding went right over the OSB board like you saw. No Tyvek or felt paper. Maybe they caulk the windows and doors and think that is waterproofing?Frank
*Steve just got a call about a leaking window in Reston. House belongs to a frend and the builder told them that he only handles call backs for one year and they have lived in there house for 13 months so.......... They offered to pay him for his trouble since they liked his work and thought he had done a great job in building there 300,000 home for them. Then it rained now the carpet got wet under the window and they thought that it was just a little problem just some adjustment and it would be fixed. I stopped by to take a look as a favor for one of the owners brother(build his home five years ago) with the home owner in tow we removed the siding( like thoose neat little swipe tools) and the osb just fell out in a nice little composted pile. Found no under layment or window flashing no sign of caulk. Home owners are now talking to there lawyer. The wall had rotted away and the siding has bridging the gap. Removed more siding and found more rot and no under layment.
*
Steve,
This sounds too awful to be true. Perhaps here is where good builders should do a little "leaning" on the baddies. Go to all the local banks, tell them exactly what is going to happen in 1-2 years, provide photos if you can, get as many of your likeminded experts as you can...see if you can stop this from distroying the profession any further. If the banks won't loan on this project, and will tell WHY, maybe the bozo will figure it out. The people who buy these places may not care, they may just sell and move on to more schlock, but they could very likely turn into the "client-from-h*ll" that comes to you next. If the profession does a little self-policing, maybe we would all be better off.
*Hi Steve. And yes you may call me "b". Thanks for continuing the thoughts on "fakes". I agree with your analysis of acceptable fakeries. But now I must delve into the assumption that vinyl siding is fake. As you suggested in regards to composition shingles not being intended to impersonate wood shingles , however much it appears the salesmen/designers try, could it not be possible that vinyl siding is not an intended impersonator of wood siding ? I agree that plastic is plastic and not a good substitute for wood. Plastic definitly has it's limitations in regards to detailing an exterior. We must be assuming that every house/home built is detailed in exqusite Victorian repor. Simplicity on the other hand has it's own charm. Not many of us here in peidmont NC get the opportunity to express our skills through working on a Victorian or Gothic. How did I get off track here? Anyway , vinyl siding performs its intended use by weathering the elements , not substantiating the structure. I don't think it was ever intended to improve the strength of a house, only protect it. I think with proper installation , this intention is achieved.(no vinyl over naked osb, etc.) Want a horror story? I was adding a room on a house that was about five years old , when I discovered that the original builder had installed vinyl siding over foil faced foam sheathing!!!! I could have taken my stanley 99 and cut a hole right through wall. In closing, I don't believe anyone is or ever was fooled by any vinyl siding job. Don't dislike it because of it's poor comparison to wood sidings. Vinyl siding in general should not be judged by the incompetency of those who misuse it , whether by installation or specification.
*
I was just today thinking much along the lines of b. How about people's opinions of the higher end vinyl siding installed correctly! I drive around town and see house after house in vinyl. Surely it cannot ALL be as bad as these posts are making it out to be.
Not that I am in a hurry to run out and install it.
Living in brick,
Rich Beckman
*Unfortunately, the banks will greet you with blank faces at best. They clearly know little about building, or they wouldn't make such ridiculous loans. But they're desperate to put all that money somewhere.On the darker side, the builder could sue you for slander, interference with contractual relations, etc. and maybe claim you're trying to drum up business for yourself. It's a cold world out there.Don't worry, the townhouse buyers will eventually gang up and sue the builder who will, surprise, go bankrupt with no real assets.Does anyone hire home inspectors for new construction? One who would, say, unzip a bit of siding to examine the detailing? Where were the inspectors during all this? Go yell at their boss.
*I have been following this thread and feel that I must add my input.. Of course vinyl is not wood and those who have it don't pretend to pass it off as wood (grain or otherwise). I would love to have a 'Fine Homebuilding' home on x acres among trees in a community where every home is different and unique with wood, stone, or brick siding.. But like most other middle class I live (by choice) in a suburban area of mass produced colonials (only design available in Maryland) with community associations and two income families with no concept of home maintenance. And all these communities are vinyl siding with an occasional brick front. Many of the residents can't even manage to paint (or hire to paint) their trim in a timely manner. If their whole house needed painting the community would look like hell. The one community nearby is eight years old, stained cedar siding and three out of four homes look like crap (all in need of a fresh staining). People who don't frequent this site want low maintenance (read as: don't want to pay for a painter). Community associations want uniformity (and have the laws on their side). Finally, an area such as mine doesn't have (or I will be damned if I can find them) "craftsmen" who are experienced in alternate types of siding. So vinyl siding has its place, just not on homes appearing in Fine Homebuilding.Alot of problems are on installation. ALCOA in their installation manual (never read by a contractor in my area) states that vinyl is not weatherproof and needs an inner layer such as foam board or Tyvek to shed water. Nailing is to be done at the studs, sheathing is not enough to hold. Proper installation of J channel and flashing at windows is critical. I could go on and on, but the point is the installers don't do the job correctly.People also buy the wrong type. Siding ranges in thickness from 20 mil to 55 mil and thicker is better. They buy 8" wide smooth beaded panel look a-like and wonder why it buckles. If you want vinyl get the thickest and stick to a 4" clapboard style . The bends add rigidity. Add Tyvek or 1/4 foam board as a bulk water barrier.Someday maybe a simple type like me will have a dream house with cedar siding and a trusted painter to freshen it up so often. In the meantime I will stick with vinyl... At least it won't dent like the alum. siding my insurance company replaced after the last hail storm...
*I basically agree, though I can't be happy at the growth of bland suburban communities. I don't think it contributes well to the health of our society, but that's a whole 'nother story.The thing is, most people just don't notice. Now that I'm interested, I do study the trim and siding when I visit a new house, and am put off by sloppy workmanship and ugly materials. (Like the century-old house I visited the other day that was renovated after a fire -- all the crown was mitered at the corners, yuck. If I'd mentioned this, I'd've been laughed at.) You can go on about people "sensing" the difference, but if they did they wouldn't have moved to a cookie-cutter subdivision in the first place. They want to do other things with their money -- or they have poor taste -- or they have no money left over after going for that big big mortgage to have the house they think they should have rather than what they need. Soooo.... different strokes for different folks?The stories about rotting houses covered with vinyl aren't that surprising -- cheap housing attracts slap-dash builders. These buyers aren't getting good value for their money, and it's not the vinyl's fault. I've thought of renovating a house for profit and realized that it would be quick -- just slap paint and siding (yes, vinyl) on it, fix the stuff that the inspector's going to squawk about, and turn it over. Boy, I'd hate to be so hasty ... but if profit is the goal... Few people appreciate or want to sink the money into the nicer things that consume so much labor (like the real plaster I've been putting up on metal lath -- man, way slower than drywall! -- and my arms are sore!).
*andrew,"cheap housing attracts stupid builders..."Can't you go just a little easier on us mere mortals whom call ourselves builders and like to think somewhat well of all including other builders who don't build with the exact same materials as "one group" in society prefers over another?We're all on this planet together, kinda like one big sandbox, you know?Differences...without it, this board, you, I and especially the legal profession would not exist...Differences are good...yes?Jack : )
*Actually, AJ, I edited the post a moment later, disliking the pejorative term. If you weren't so quick with that reply button...What is a good term for folks who build for profit without any concern for the longevity of their product?
*andrew,I understand where you are "coming from" and am really enjoying participating here at Breaktime...Its just that anytime I read a post where someone's really slicing and dicing...though I really did enjoy Joe's attempt to barbecue us all recently.It's not perfect but I do feel vinyl siding is a much better product in my eyes than all here have said. My experience with vinyl has been one of ease, no call backs, no fears of callbacks, looks very clean and tidy for a long time, and definitely will be much much less expensive to maintain for my customers. Paint and stain in the Adirondacks looks great on wood siding for a year. Every year there after is downhill in a hurry. Because the siding is so expensive, the builders usually do not put three coats of finish on to start with. Sometimes the customer says one coat's enough, I'll do the rest myself. And then they never do it just like the earlier poster said. At least half the real wood sided homes around where I live need paint or stain and look poor. I like most all sidings, they all serve their purpose as I see it.And b Longevity... is a b two-party responsibility,Jack : )
*Hi all,Glad this thread is still promoting reasoned thought and has not degenerated into flaming as some others here occaisionally do.Yes, vinyl siding has it's place. It is cheaper than wood, both to buy and install, but I'm not sure it's any cheaper to maintain in the long run. It just wears diffently than painted wood. It starts out looking not as good as painted wood, and deteriorates slowly, but it does deteriorate.A friend of my wife's whose husband is a builder is currently replacing the vinyl siding he put on their house when he built it 15 years ago. And not because there is anything functionally wrong with it, just because it looks "tired" like vinyl gets to looking. She figures after this round of vinyl, they'll only have to replace it twice more before she dies.And my Uncle, who lives in Mpls.resided his whole house because a winter hail storm shattered one wall. The color was too faded to patch, so he re-did the whole thing (in vinyl again)It is true that paint requires maintainence, but it doesn't require replacing the siding to make it look good again. And I'm sorry, but vinyl, even brand new and well installed still just looks clumsy. And then there is that cheesy embossed woodgrain...Plastic does plastic well. If you're going to side your house in plastic, why not be honest about it. Encase it in a seamless, bulbous Bondi-blue shell, call it the iHouse, and tout is ease of use and low maintainence. Maybe it'll sell 800,000 units in the first five months!Steve
*Steve,Does all vinyl fade? What color would white vinyl siding fade to?Are some vinyl products such as Certainteeds very high quality products.Have you seen a vinyl sided home that uses colored aluminum over wood for trim details verses the standard vinyl products?Wood grain looks cheesy. It is available with less grain for you if that's a beef.Most vinyl sided homes will not have moisture problems, will not need replacement after 15 years, will not be damaged by hail, and will need very little care over the years.Wood has its FHB appeal and wood needs more maintenance. It's the client's choice,Jack : )
*Sheesh! Lay off the vinyl! Do all you detractors drive Cadillacs?Do you all eat off china with silver spoons?Vinyl is an alternative to real wood. Period. It can be installed good and bad, and will look accordingly.Y'all want to believe that the wood siding of the past is so superior. Well show me today's cedar siding and tell me it's the same!HA!I've cut a ton of today's thin cedar siding with ...MY UTILITY KNIFE!Tin snips work too!Don't try to tell me that those flimsy, splitty, pieces of paper, that they call cedar siding, ais superior to a quality vinyl product. Ok, you can try, but I won't believe!Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'd much prefer today's LP 8" lap siding than all the cedar in cedarland!Blue, fired up by all the noses that are poking up into the clouds!
*Blue,It was getting mighty lonely trying to be supportive of any siding if well done and in explaining real world long term "normal" maintenance differences... Using...Not just wood, not just vinyl, not just concrete planks,Jack : )
*
Hi Guys,
Read with much interest the postings on vinyl. I'd have to say, I put vinyl on my house when I built it three years ago, and I doubt that I'd use anything else if I had to do it all over again. It was really easy to install, (try lifting hardiplank 12 feet!) and in the particular area where I live, with constant exposure to trade wind driven rain, it'll last longer than any wood product, T-111, which is the most popular siding material in my area, cedar siding, or shingles, or anything else. In fact, most houses here that have wood siding have the windward wall done in asphalt shingles, for water proofing purposes.
And then there is the icing on the cake- maintenance! When I built, it wasn't with the intention of spending the rest of my life buffing out my house every couple of years. Week-ends are too precious! Vinyl looks good, has the half life of plutonium, and allows me to have fun! My wife may even get cabinet doors one of these days, since I have all of this extra time not painting my house! Cheers, Ken
*
I'm sure you'll be impressed with your vinyl cabinet doors, too.
*Tsk, tsk.
*Ken,Glad you're happy with it. That's why there are different products for different people. Just FYI, my wood siding is 165 years old. My wood windows are 130 years old. A little scraping and painting and they are even more handsome than the day they were made. I'm happy with them. I couldn't live in new construction either. I find it all very sterile and depressing.Different strokes for different folks.Don't forget, the title of this thread is "Seeking Opinions on vinyl siding." My opinion of it is poor, for what that's worth.Steve
*
Howdy fellas,
Just wanted to pick your brains on the subject of vinyl siding. It seems as though this stuff is really gaining a lot of popularity around my part of the country (Central TX). Aside from the obvious paint/maintenance reasons, why is this stuff so popular. What does it cost per square to install as compared to other types (ie. fiber-cement, wood, masonite etc.)?
For the life of me, I cannot make myself like this stuff. I'm not sure why, I just can't and I need to solidify my opinion.
I'm being asked to bid several siding jobs of which a couple are considering the merits of vinyl.
Just curious what you guys think...Thanks in advance.
Any and all experiences are welcome.
Donnie C.
Cunningham Building Co.