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Hi folks,
I’m a DIY who has undertaken a rather ambitious addition to my house. I’m now facing the task of putting up about 30 squares of R&R’s. I have lots of dormers and funny angles to deal with as well. To put this into perspective, I took a random sampling of shingle widths (actually I took the first ten shingles from the top bundle). I found the average width to be almost exactly 6 inches. At 5 inch exposure that translates to about 480 shingles per square. For 30 squares, I’m facing 14,400 shingles!
I learned to shingle from working for my dear dad about 25 years ago. His best trick for speeding the process was to use a good straight-edge and a story pole! I figure there must be some guys out there who have a few good tricks up their sleeves to speed up the process. I figure that if I can save 10 seconds per shingle that means spending 40 hours less of my life up on a staging!
How about it, guys?
Replies
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Roger, If you haven't already started shingling consider going to a 7" exposure for the obvious savings of time and material. Rent, borrow or buy (you can resale) a siding nailer. There are plenty out there, I have a Makita that is light and efficient,others make guns that are as good. Lay your straight edge on the wall and run a string parallel to it at a heigth of 1" higher than your exposure,ie. 6" up when using a 5" exposure. Lay shingles the length of your straight edge. The string allows you to position your shingles fast and switch shingles that don't lap sufficiently, and give a gauge for nailing so you don't end up nailing below your exposure.Doing it this way means you only pick the gun up for long runs most times and you should be able to fly. Good luck, Skip
*Roger, ditto on the string tip.One other tip. Quit calculating and just start installing!blue
*lol on the tip , blue. Sometimes I spend more time on figuring out different ways to do it than it takes to actually build it. Roger, I know it looks like it's gonna take forever but once you get into a rythym you'll be amazed at how much you get done in a day. Good Luck, Dave.
*Thanks, Skip. Great recommendation! I tried it already and found that it saves a lot of time. I did buy a power nailer (I at least figured that one out). So now I can line 'em up and shoot 'em down...Blue, I can't help it with the calcualting thing. It's in my genes. Maybe you can't get past 10 in your calculations, maybe 20 with shoes off, and maybe even 21 if you count what's in your jeans!!! ;-0Just kidding, Blue. Dave, thanks for the encouragement. Take care guys...Roger
*I've never tried the string trick--if yo want to save a bit more time, leave it off and just set up 3-4 feet of shingles at a time. This way you can kinda hold them up with your left elbow (if you're a righty) when the air discharge from the gun threatens to blow them off. I've done more sidewall shingling than I'd like to remember!! I always have a block plane handy to cope each shingle against its neighbour (I'm from Canada) and I install them tight together. conventional wisdom says to leave a 1/4 in. gap, but every house I've done has that nice gap --the NEXT summer!! Weave your corners...
*Generator, you will save a ton of time with the string. There is no way that you could do it faster with the elbow. I've only done it once with a guy that learned the trick in Boston. We set the entire row of shingles then walked back shooting them all at once. If I remember correctly the string was strung on the next course layout. After shooting the course, we used the string to align the straightedge. Nothing could be simpler, except vinyl.blue
*If you want to save time , don't weave your corners use trim for corners. Blind caulk instead of face caulking. The gun helps for sure. Forget the hand plane. When you mark your story pole adjust the coarses to meet the window heads and other spots to save cutting and a better look. Also use a differant color marker for these marks to locate them quicker. use stainless nails if you are staining. Good Luck.
*Roger,Pre-stain the shingles on the ground, getting all sides. Consider running furring strips horizontally on your lay out. (extends shingle and sheething life.) Story poles then strings. I lay up three to five strings at a time, bang 'em up, and restring. It does go fast when you get in the groove.
*After trying the string thing I was going to suggest lining the string up with the bottom of the next row of shingles to use it as the reference for laying out the next row, as Blue suggests. That way I can nail above the string and know they'll be covered by the next row. And the string does double duty as a guide for the straightedge. Laying out five strings at a time like David recommends sounds like a good plan as well.Ron, I'm using trim on outside corners. What about inside corners? I'm not staining the shingles. What if I rip some cedar trim to 3/4" X 3/4" for inside corners so that I have a stright edge to butt the shingles against? I suspect that as it weathers it would be pretty much invisible in the corner. How does that sound?Also, I can't forget the hand plane. My father is of Canadian decent so I'm in the same boat as generator. Even though they're going to dry out and gap they have to be tight when I fit them (more of that "in the genes" thing).David, I'm not sure I understand the furring strips. Could you elaborate?Roger
*Roger, using inside corner strips is a good idea, but 3/4" x 3/4" isn't quite thick enough. You'll end up having to plane each shingle to fit anyway if you do that. Best is to use 1" x 1", next choice is 3/4" x 1". Mike
*roger... if you are using R&R's you should be laying them as they come from the BOX...chuck the plane...you PAID for R&R.. that replaced the plane .. sides .. a traditionalist would be shaving them with a shingling hatchet... and laying open his forearm veins everytime he forgot it was hanging in his hammer holster..if you are weaving outside corners , you can scribe them exactly and follow the scribe with a 4" trim saw..again.... no shaving..and no finish nails either.. tehy only look good for about two weeks and then they start to pull thru..weave your outside corners tight with no finish nails... use headed nails for cut -off courses under windows .. up rakes.. either HotDip Galv..or SS.get colored step flashing.. don't use bright aluminum... looks cheap.. too thin..keep all you butts 3/4 above the roof so they won't wick .. the furring strips are straight and tacked to the course line... the shingle butts sit on the furring strips .. the strings hold them in place.. watrch out for "stair -steps" if teh shingles are cocked sitting on the furring strip..prime adn finsih all your trim before you shingle.. then just touch up..think about removing freize and rake trim.. so you don't have to theif everything...pad any trim to a full 1 " ...( 1.25" in some cases )so all shingles can go UNDER the trim..
*Okay, okay. The String sounds like a great idea--I've just never used it. I will, though. The shingles that we used in BC, when installed with 5" exposure gave a thickness of well-nigh 1 1/2" after installation. We used 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 inside corner blocks and they almost disappeared...Right on with the prestaining on the ground. We would have cheap labour dip the bottom inch or two, then brush up to above the exposure line, working the stain (usually) into the grain. Then lean them upside down against an elaborate and ridiculous string setup for drying...took over an hour per bundle (at four bundles a square... you see why we needed the cheap labour...)Pump jacks for the scaffold situation make the day go smoother, too..generator
*I was planning on installing white cedar shingle siding over Typar. I live in a wet climate (Northern Michigan) and after reading about moisture problems when wood clapboards are used over housewrap (FHB #137) I'm really concerned about how the shingles will work. Since the article made no mention of shingles over housewrap does anyone have experience with this combination or suggestions as to how I should proceed?
*Hey,Get the little battery circular saw for the rakes, dormers etc., They're muy bueno for this..diito on Mike's colored aluminum; flashing=cheese!Good advice too on the frieze trim relief for the slip "er oo"Have fun and do a nice job,Dan-O
*Guys, In Maine where shingles seem to be the siding of choice, I learned a pretty efficient way to dip alot of shingles. First make an 8' box the width of a piece of chicken wire fence (3'or 4') use 1x10 roofers for the four sides and the chicken wire for the bottom. You now have what looks like a giant sifter. now loosely cover the bottom with some poly sheeting, stapling it to the sides. now attach four legs so it is tall enough to get a 5 gal. bucket underneath. Still following me? Use a second mud bucket to dip the shingles and then stand them up in the box, leaning them against the sides. The excess stain will drip onto the plastic. After enough has dripped off to form a puddle, place your bucket under the low point of the plastic and poke a hole to let the stain drain into bucket. By the time you fill up the box with dipped shingles it will be time to empty to drip bucket into the dip bucket. when the shingle have pretty much stopped dripping you can toss them into loose pile to let them dry. We would use Japan dryer when using oil stains to reduce the drying time.After they were dry enough we would stack them in cardboard boxes to carry them up on the staging.Hope you can understand this I'm not computer-savvy enough to add a drawing to my post . Andy if your reading this maybe you could enlighten us neanderthals on how to attach drawings?? Mr. "anything to make painting or staining go away faster"
*We always seemed to be dipping our shingles in the wintertime, in someone's basement, with an oil stain!! took 3-4 days to dry sometimes, that's why we'd use the big string drying system. I guess the material goes on thick--takes a long time to dry..generator
*have you guys bought any factory dipped ?seems like they're better and cheaper than doing it yourself.. limited stain colors though
*Hi folks,I just got back from a business trip and I'm getting ready to put the toolbelt back on. I really appreciate all of the tips that have been posted. As you may have been able to tell from the earlier postings, I'm a geek and I'm curious to see how much faster I'll be able to work now. I'll let you all know how it works out.Later...Roger
*Run a peice of flashing, mill will be fine, 10", bent in the middle. Run it up your inside corners. I use cedar spindle material for my inside corners comes ready to go at 1 1/2 x 1 1/2. Forget the planer they come ready to go as Mike said. Hey they dont come soaking wet out of the box! If you install tight ,when it rains they will swell and split over time. 1/8 gap is fine. If I had a planer in my pouch I would lose my shirt!
*Thanks Ron. I'll look for the cedar spindle stuff. Instead of aluminum in the corners I started using some of the water and ice shield I had left over from the roof. That seemed to work pretty well and was easy to work into the corner. I imagine it's a six of one, half-dozen of the other thing. As long as I have a good water shield in there...Roger
*My methods are just a little different...I snap a chalk line and just fly down it air stapling shingles as fast as I can grab em...On pumpjacks...we set up a back table...spread out a few boxes of shingles....With two men...one can pick and place..while one shoots...two seconds per shingle...plus a minute to snap next course...I cut/scribe outside corners right in place with very sharp 1 1/2" chisel after nailed up...HD carries preprimed shingles...and many more choices...Always apply stains before application...then spray on final coat before moving the pump jacks...Inside corners...square trim...butt to it....Remember your starter course...gap your joints...no planing ussually..keep shingles up off roofing...use scrap of 3/4" wood layed on roof for guide...yaa need some hand nails to face nail corners and last course.That's about it...We fly...No one is faster...The chalk line crew.near the stream,aj
*a chalk line is ok if you are working with a rough shingel..but if you want the formal appearance you expect from a red cedar R&R, you have to set them on a straight furring strip... so the bottoms of your courses will be absolutely in the same plane.. and you have to watch out for "stair steps"...a lot depends on the effect you are trying to achieve....
*WE cut all the corners after the first three are done and the angle settles in, with a handy jig and a table or circular saw and then put em in a crate and they go on as quick as the rest.
*Jack, if you use a chalk line on natural shingles how long does it take for the chalk to wash away? Doesn't it take time to visually line up the bottom of the shingle with the line compared to just resting the shingle on the straight-edge? If you don't watch the bottom wouldn't get the stair-stepping that Mike mentions?
*Not having seen many shingled houses here in central North Carolina, I have a quick question about the "straight furring strip" that Mike Smith refers to-How is this actually held in place and what sort of length are we talking about? Thanks
*usually tacked in place with shingle nails.. it's as long as you can handle... say 12'or as short as it takes to fit in-between vertical breaks..like windows..the bottom starter might have 3 or 4 narrow shingles dropped to hold the starter course...when the furring is moved up, the shingles hanging down are trimmed off..
*Mike! That's a good idea--hanging a couple shingles down to hang the strip for the first course!! I have always done that first course by eye--it is the slowest thing this side of a slug rodeo!! I then would start to use the support strip on the subsequent courses.Never again--I will use the technique you mentioned from now on for the bottom course!g
*Dropping a few shingles down on the starter row to hold the straight-edge works great. I had seen a few houses around here where they used that technique so I copied it. The way dear dad used to do the starter row was to snap a line some distance above the bottom of the first row (e.g., 5") then mark each shingle on one edge (the other edge lines up with the previous shingle) and line up the mark with the snapped line. That was reasonably quick as well and you don't have to go back and cut the hanging shingles.We had some previous discussion about fitting shingles. Someone suggested a 1/8" space between them to allow for swelling when wet. The rationale was that the R&Rs come out of the box dry and will absorb water. I've stopped using the block plane to make perfect fits, but I'm still butting the shingles against each other because they aren't totally dry out of the box. In fact, mine come in bundles, not boxes. After they are up for a few days (a week at the most) they dry up a bit and have a good 1/8" gap. Another thing I've noted is that it's pretty darn hard to find a long straight-edge (furring or whatever) that's perfectly straight. So what I've been doing is tacking the straight-edge to the wall at either end and then I slide a level along it as I tack the other nails in. It doesn't take more than a few extra seconds and it produces laser-straight rows.Roger
*If you can't find a straight straight-edge, snapping a chalkline first and putting the straight-edge to the line is a quick way to do it.Here's a tip for when you get to the end of a course, instead of rooting around to find exactly the right size shingle. Before you nail up the next-to-last shingle, use it as a guide to cut the last shingle to fit with a utility knife. Mike
*Mike, I'm not putting any finish on the shingles so I don't want any lingering chalkline dust on the shingles. I can still see where the builder of the original house snapped a line 10 years ago...Good recommendation on marking the last shingle using the next-to-last. That's a trick my daddy used as well...Roger
*snap the lines with a fine blue chalk..and set you furring strip BELOW the line so the shingle butt will cover..... i don't see how sliding a straight edge along the furring strip will help with production..me... i'd use the chalk line
*Mike, it's a "level". It has bubble in the middle that tells you it's level. If it's consistently level, it's probably straight... ;-)
*not in my experience...the only thing straight between two points is a chalk line.....or a string lineb but hey, whadda i no ?
*Red chalk sticks forever (it seems), blue eventually washes off (it seems). I'm not sure about the purple chalk that somehow got into one of my chalk boxes...
*Roger, Try white chalk. I have used it on decks to get perfectly straight screw rows. It comes off as you are walking on it.Jon
*When a furring strip is tacked up as a guide for the next row of shingles, it is tacked to or through the previous row of shingles, and when the strip is removed we'll have a few exposed holes in the shingles, right?
*Mark,Yup. You'll have some exposed holes. I've been using box nails to hold the furring in place. The narrow shank makes small holes. When the shingles are exposed to rain the wood swells and the holes almost disappear.Jon,Thanks for the white chalk tip. Do they sell it at regular lumber yards? I've never noticed it but I haven't looked for it yet. Roger
*They sell white chalk at Home Depot.Billy
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Hi folks,
I'm a DIY who has undertaken a rather ambitious addition to my house. I'm now facing the task of putting up about 30 squares of R&R's. I have lots of dormers and funny angles to deal with as well. To put this into perspective, I took a random sampling of shingle widths (actually I took the first ten shingles from the top bundle). I found the average width to be almost exactly 6 inches. At 5 inch exposure that translates to about 480 shingles per square. For 30 squares, I'm facing 14,400 shingles!
I learned to shingle from working for my dear dad about 25 years ago. His best trick for speeding the process was to use a good straight-edge and a story pole! I figure there must be some guys out there who have a few good tricks up their sleeves to speed up the process. I figure that if I can save 10 seconds per shingle that means spending 40 hours less of my life up on a staging!
How about it, guys?