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Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
While listening is important you need to learn to listen wisely, learn to direct the conversation through some critally timed questions. The timing comes from the body language and their eyes.. the questions need to be open ended.
One important lesson I've learned is to talk to both husband and wife.
If you can get both of them involved and interested in the discussion, you're more than 1/2 way home.
Shep,
Talk to both partners and maybe more, set the stage prior to beginning your pitch. ask this open ended question, Who besides yourselves will be involved in the decision making process..
When they answer ask the right follow up question, So the banker doesn't need to approve this?
When they are answering you, look at who turns and looks at who, watch their eyes. That is your leader.. appeal to the woman but sell to the man if that's the case. if he looks at her appeal to the man but sell to the woman. Read their body language prior to doing this know when they are receptive and when they have rejected you.. Know several differant approaches to deal with rejection. If you can't handle that rejection you will fail..
Realize the rejection may be the wife, the husband, or both. It may be directed at you , your approach, or your product. that's a minimum of 9 differant ways to deal with rejection. That intro ductory.. before you really get into selling..
You do have presentations ready to sell both ways don't you? Massively differant technique required depending on who you appeal to and who you sell to..
I'm fortunately at the point where I really don't have to sell anymore. I have a lot of repeat customers, and they just call me to get on my schedule. 1/2 the time they don't ebven want prices, but that makes me nervous, so I'll figure out a price and write up a contract.
I haven't lost a job because of price for quite a while, and I know I'm not the cheapest out there.
And I do know I'm lucky with the customers I have.
Shep,
I don't think that's luck.. I think it's that you give good value and your customers are smart enough to appreciate it.
Not everybody has that situation, in fact here in the Twin Cities I know of company after company folding. The new home builders are out of work so they flooded into the remodelers market and drove prices down so low that often traditional remodelers are left out.. Today people have work done for less than 1/2 of previous bids by contractors who haven't had a paying job in 10 months or more..
I calculated the hourly wage on the garage done right next door and he was working for Mc Donald wages.. I've heard he hasn't worked since he finished it..
Any good sales person will ask for your business at the end of the conversation. The customer can say "yes" or "no" but only if they are asked.
-Norm
VTNorm,
No, a good salesman is constantly closing or looking for a close.. There is a book out there called Shut Up and Sell that does a great job of explaining this.. Please read what I wrote above to journeymancarpenter with regarding this subject.
Timing is everything.. the oppertunity to close may have been early on and you missed it..
Second, never and I repeat never ask a question which can be answered no.. Always ask open ended questions! Anything that can be answered yes or no is a closed end question..
If you like I'll give you examples of this. It's a good drill to practice turning yes or no questions into open ended questions..
Mini example, don't ask if you get the job,, ask when they want the job finished. Then go into your presumptive close. Oh that soon? Why then? What happens if it's delayed? (see how instead of pressuring them for the close you've put them in the position where they are pressuring themselves) ?
Edited 1/7/2008 9:57 am ET by frenchy
I will agree - but also disagree. Open ended questions in the right context are great and will get you to the next level, maybe, but at some point you have to fish or cut bait. My job isn't to 'close' the deal just to prove my superior selling skills. After my due diligence and presenting the proposal at a reasonable price (and profit) and I'm confident this is a customer I want to work with I'm quite content to either have an agreement - or not. That works for me, sounds like it doesn't work for you.
The last thing I want to do is keep selling, selling, selling to a customer and have them get buyers remorse after inking the contract. You've won the deal but that's a losing situation in the long run.
Let's face it, we've all had those customers that can't make a decision, that are tire kicking, that are looking to beat you down on price no matter what - I'm either going to hear 'yes' on my terms or 'no'. Personally, I have no desire to turn it into a car saleman-like approach. So I'm happy to cut my losses and walk away at that point.
-Norm
VTNorm,
Ah but tire kickers and such will weed themselves out with the right open ended question.
No salesman worth anything will sell something unwanted to someone.. Selling definately isn't about forcing someone to buy whatever you have to sell, it's about helping them make choices.. once they've made their choice than you can choose to accept them as a customer or reject them.. You are in control not the customer..
Your goal isn't to sell, but to sell at a profit.. the proper sales technique allows you to do that and avoids the situations where buyers remorse would ever take place..
I always tell my people they have the 3 days to think it over and if they want to back out just let me know and I will gladly tear up the deal. (and I mean it too!)
I will also tell them that they have X number of days/weeks etc. before I've made the order myself.. Before I've committed to spend money on their behalf. At that point they are committed as I am.
The only time I ever violate that is when my customers are dishonest with me.. They call me in for a bid /estimate/whatever and lie to me answering the questions I pose to them. I'm not talking about getting something wrong or making mistakes or changing their mind thru the process.. I'm talking about deliberate lie.. I will then shoot them in the foot.. badly!
Shooting them in the foot is a sales term and has nothing to do with guns.
If you shoot someone in the foot that foot lags behind as you walk away and brings you right back around. So if they wanted low price and lied to me to get it my price will be so low they will return to me.. They will shop and shop and shop and never beat my low price..
So they will call me up and tell me they want to get started or whatever..
I tell them to come in and sign some papers.
When they come in after I've shot them in the foot I start right back as if we've never met before.. I want to give them every chance to tell me the truth, if they do we will wind up at a deal I can accept often by that time they will realize they are wasting their time.. If not I'll remind them If I can ....... Will you.....
If I can do it for $50,000 will you buy it tonight? If I can get it for you wholesale will you pay my labor to pick it up? That's how all preliminary bids, estimates etc.. are worded. Since they walk away I'm under no obligation to honor it..
Whatever, if I can, will you? Is the most powerful tool in neogotating.. Never give anything away without getting something back.
Remember they are only back to you because they lied to you.. It's not a good relationship.. you don't need to point that out to them but you need to keep that in mind as you decide to accept it or not..
If you accept it use the that as a guild line whenever dealing with them in the future..
Thanks frenchy for your inputs. I knew you would come through.I knew about the "What if,... will you" proposal. It's an offer that really isn't an offer. It takes them off the hook about making a decision because it's really not a decision. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Frenchy,
Again, good points, and we're both trying to get to the same decision point in the process - difference is, due to the smallish scope of my typical project, I need a 'yes' or 'no' answer quickly - either mine or theirs - without trying to lead someone too far down the path or I've spent too much time on the sale. The original OP, from posts here and on JLC is starting a K&B remodeling company, small crew with an average job length of only 2 weeks. He certainly needs sales/closig skills but his projects will be on the low end, like me, how much time can afford to invest in one customer trying to sell a small job?
I do alot of work in MA, per state law anything over $1000 requires a contract and 3 day right of recision. I've only had a couple of folks back out and in hindsight these were people that were squirrelly enough to begin with and I ignored the hesitant 'yes' when they signed rather than walking away myself.
Oh, and anyone that lies to me never gets a 2nd chance to get on my calendar - you must have a much higher quota to meet than I do to tolerate letting them back in your office under any conditions.
-Norm
Norm,
The reason I give customers a second chance is two fold.
First Americans aren't skilled in the art of negotation, not like much of the rest of the world is. About the only thing that is bargined for is Cars and even that with the internet that is quickly ending.. Without that exposure it's understandable that they are poor at it and resort to lies and tricks.. Like you they assume anyone who sells something must be dishonest and tricky.
Second is self interest,, by the time they get back to me they've recieved an education that is often extremely bruising to them. I'm open and honest and after what they've been thru that is refreshing. They lied to me, I lied to them, let's start fresh is my approach. I would say that at least 5% of my sales is from bebacks. I don't want my income reduced by 5% because of my ego..
Small or large the technique works as fast or faster than any other approach if your goal is to produce results that are profitable.. It sounds to me that you tend to treat your customers a bit like a clerk does.. Polite and reasonable, profits based on volume. Take it or leave it..
If that works well then you are indeed lucky.. I've sold into a disappearing market and recognize that unlike a sellers market (which you have) a buyers market really does require as much skill as you take in doing your job correctly. Just like you wouldn't approach a siding job with a slap dash attitude, sales done right yields similar results.
"resort to lies and tricks.. Like you they assume anyone who sells something must be dishonest and tricky."
Hmmm, I never said or implied that. I sell, I just don't believe that you always have to oversell. I simply prefer to get to 'yes' - or 'no' quickly.
"They lied to me, I lied to them..."
This is where you lost me. Once you've mutually lied to each other, your customer (if you've still succeeded in selling to him) drives the equipment off the lot and you're done. In the case of a contractor I'm walking into their house, their personal space, while they're still getting up morning, rubbing their eyes and scratching themselves. If the basis of the relationship was lies it's a situation and environment that I, personally, choose not to be part of. But that's me. If lying works for you, and apparently it does because it's worth 5% of your salary, well, good luck with that.
"It sounds to me that you tend to treat your customers a bit like a clerk does.. Polite and reasonable, profits based on volume. Take it or leave it..."
I treat my customers professionally and with respect, customers I choose to work with treat me the same. I don't have X pieces of equipment on the lot I have to move, all I have is X billable hours in week. I can't make more time so I have to fill those X hours doing the most profitable & enjoyable work I can find for customers that I like to work with. My overhead and profit numbers are what they are. And like my banker, my accountant and my lawyer - my numbers are non-negotiable.
If a customer hesitates or waffles on price, my discussion is never "what can I do to make you sign today?", it's "what material/finish/aspect of the project do you want to change to meet your budget number?". I really don't see how it's an incorrect selling technique to learn those answers early on, it allows me to focus on those potential customers that are a better fit with my company.
I recall another thread, someone stated that whenever you lower the price or give something away just to win the job the $$ to cover that is coming from your kids college fund, your 401k, the vacation account...I'm not in business to subsidize my customers dream renovation.
Hopefully the OP has picked-up some good info here, I know I have.
Peace, -Norm
Norm
Hopefully you read why I give customers a second chance after they lie to me and why I start from scratch when they do come back..
We are differant in that you "live" with your customers. Except I "live" with mine.
If they don't make money using my equipment,, more money than they would without it they won't keep paying for it..
It doesn't maytter if it's a lease, sale, or rent.. it comes back!
So Unlike you I'm Investing with them.. you finish your project and collect the money from their bank or whatever and that's the last you hear from them unless they want more done..
I'm involved with their business for 5 years or more.. The economy turns south and I get equipment back.. Evan if they use their own bank we often have to sign recourse.. So if the bank has to take it back we still wind up with it..
When your home owners sign with their bank you don't have to sign recourse.. another words go and take back that addition..
I do like your approach to the if I do will you issue I mentioned..
If I do use a cheaper material to remaininside your budget will you still be satisfied?
Rule #1 in my book: Don't make promises you can't keep.
don't promise the moon,and ask if they want to buy and if not is there anything that you could do to help change that? sometimes the answer will be something so small to close the deal,you will have a hard time keeping a straight face. larry
of course if i really knew what i was talking about i'd still have a car lot,instaed of landlording. lol
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Ask for the order!
seems simple. Every salesman "should" do it.
But only like 50% ever ASK for the business
Asking for the order (closing) is important and there are many different ways to do it. There are a few things that will help the process toward a close. Getting mini closes helps to put the buyer into the yes mode. A mini close would be asking them something that you know they will say yes too. Like "Are you interested in saving on your heat bills Mr Jones? " if you are selling a storm door. Or, do you like how a nice fresh coat of paint brightens up a room?" if you are selling a paint job. The key is to get multiple mini closes. This gets the buyer in the mood to say yes because it's human nature to say no when being asked to part with something you love.....money! Mini closes also help you sniff out objections. Some people don't want to hear objections but they are very important
opportunities. If people are so turned off, they won't bother telling you their objections. Oh yeah...ask questions. Ask, listen, ask listen, ask listen. Another biggy: Shut up! If you want to understand how important it is to shut up do this: the next time you are being sold something, watch the sales person rattle on and listen to hear how many things he talks about that aren't important to you. If he's not asking you specific questions and listening to you, how does he know what to tell you. I spent a lot of time in MI looking at properties in a small town. They had a weird system where the listing agent had to be present with the buying agent. I looked at dozens of properties and met a dozen different listing agents. Each time, they walked through with us and rattled on and on and on and on and they didn't have a clue what my goals and objectives were. It was amazing how much information they gave me that they shouldn't have! A structured sales presentation is different. Your not rambling but moving through a carefully crafted message which should include many many mini closes and many questions. If I could do all this, I'd be rich. Its fun trying to get it right though.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>>A mini close would be asking them something that you know they will say yes too. Like "Are you interested in saving on your heat bills Mr Jones?<<
Just saturday something like that worked for me.
A cutomer contacted me with hopes to turn their house upside down in the near future.
Sat down with her, she gave me a budget and I thought it might be a little low, really close but low. Then I said "the extra you might spend will save money on your heat bills."
I wasn't lieing either, after inspection her entire farm house had no insulation. NONE.
This made her mind up, if its over her original budget she'll be fine with it. Knowing what she spends will make that $2,000 tank of propane last longer.
Woods favorite carpenter
Blue ,
Good points about mini closes...
However read what I said about timing to jouneyman carpenter..
Learn to read their eyes, learn to read body language, that will help massively with your timing. Ask open ended questions directed towards your goal..
Never ever ask a question which can be answered yes or no. It's a good drill turning yes or no questions into open ended questions..
Edited 1/7/2008 9:54 am ET by frenchy
Scrapr,
The reason so many don't ask is they don't know the stages of a sale and how to close or when to close..
Please read what I said to jouneymancarpenter with regard to timing..
Edited 1/7/2008 9:54 am ET by frenchy
There are associations you can join that will help you on a continual basis.
National home builders or something???
You join the association and they have meeting to discuss work and they bring in speakers.
I can't remember the name.
Look here :
http://www.joegirard.com/
I read his books a number of years ago and still remember and use his techniques when I feel the need.
Jim is right about "listen" and "mini-closes".
Another trick is "selling against the wall"
Set up some time line that demands action by a certain date or the deal passes by.
The sales game is full of verbal tricks that are important, pay attention to what the client/customer is telling you is without a doubt the most important tool. If you can't here their objections you can't overcome them.
I left sales after a short time because I didn't like the atmosphere and wasn't successful at it. After I left I got a call from one of the outlets I used to visit. the manager asked me to come to work for him on a very nice salary.
I laughed and asked why he would hire me as I could never get him to buy anything from me.
His answer:
" I can get salesman who can sell ice cubes to Eskimos, what you sold was yourself, your integrity and the service you provided to me even if you weren't making a dime out of , that is priceless. I want my customers coming back ."
Thats an impressive offer. I'm impressed.I read Joe Girard's book. Mainly, I was interested because I knew about him. My sister bought a car from him and I sat in on the sale. I was very young and read his stuff in later years. I'll check his site out tomorrow.Another great site is jeffrey gittomer. Someone tipped me off about him and I think he's a great resource. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
For Me the morals of the story being that even when you think you have failed you may have succeeded and that honesty, integrity and service will get you places a quick sale won't.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Blue,
Learn the phrase,
If I can,...... will you...........? that is a key in neogotiations as is the appeal to a higher power. (nothing to do with religon)
don't promise what you can't deliver.
or promise less and deliver more.
Underpromise and Overdeliver
And Rule No 1 = ABC = Always Be Closing
JouneymanCarpenterT
I've been selling now for 55 years now, I started selling at age 5 selling magazines to neighbors.. My father was a professional salesman all of his life and my grandfather used to sell vegetables door to door.
It is a skill, not a gimmick or technique. It is really hard work where diligence pays off. Rejection is the norm and you must have an iron will and determination to succeed. Nation wide less than 1 person in a hundred will still be in sales 5 years after they enter it.. Of those 1 people out of a hundred who make it less than 1 will make any real money (above average income)
There are a handful of books out there on the subject but all of the techniques, all of the methods they used, will fall as flat as a poorly told joke with bad timing.
Timing is really critical, you learn that timing by learning to read body language, learning to read the customers eyes, and learning to ask the right question at the right time.. That is why telemarketing has such dismal results..
You need to learn the top 50 closes but trying a close at the wrong time is bound to fail even when the customer wants what you have..
It is not about price,, price is the crutch the weak salesman uses to make the sale.. Some people would sell a twenty dollar bill for $18.00 to make a sale.. the pro will make a fair profit but never gouge a customer.. The fool will gouge customers and wonder why he goes out of business..
JCT,
You asked about books:
The one that absolutely helped me the most was "Secrets of Closing the Sale" by Zig Ziglar.
A pretty close second was "Selling the Invisible" by Harry Beckwith. This book is more about recognizing value than the actual techniques of selling.
"Shut up and Sell" as Frenchy mentioned was good also, but be sure Don Sheehan is the author.(Copyright 1981, buy it used on Amazon) There is at least one other with that title, by a different author.
Honorable mention could go to "You Can't Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar" by David Sandler. Sandler sales training was used by a couple of contractors I had heard from, but it didn't appeal to me.
I thought Gitomer's "Little Red Book Of Selling" sucked. OK maybe not completely, but his "Mr Tough Guy" approach was a real turn off.
If you are into commodity type of stuff (siding, roofing, replacement windows) Phil Rea wrote "How to Become a Millionaire Selling Remodeling". Seemed much too high pressure for me but you might want to take a look.
Probably a dozen other sales books on my bookshelf too, but the three at the top are my "go to" books that get read at least once a year.
One thing I would suggest is to keep a journal of your sales attempts, both successes and failures, and learn from them. After I had read Zig the first time (in 1991) I had a notebook that I kept notes in. I eventually gave it up but took it up again a few years ago after Frenchy suggested it here. (If you want i can give some examples from real live jobs.)
Like some of the above posts mentioned, you need to learn to ask questions and get the prospect talking. Questions are as basic to selling as your hammer is to building.
Bowz
Several thoughts from the customer side....
A mini close would be asking them something that you know they will say yes too. Like "Are you interested in saving on your heat bills Mr Jones? " if you are selling a storm door. What I, the customer, just heard is that you think I'm stupid and that, by asking the "right" questions, you can lead me into a sale. My answer to the question is "No."
If I'm shopping for something, I'm looking for information on how one product is different from another, how important each part of the puzzle is in determining the usefulness/quality of the product, and how the differences impact the final cost.
If I can,...... will you...........? I've heard this several times when looking at cars. Every time I hear it the word "sleazy" comes to mind.
but tire kickers and such will weed themselves out with the right open ended question. I'll weed myself out with a straight answer to one question: how much money are we talking about? The answer is not "oh, there are so many variable that it's impossible to say." Rather "if you go with something like this, you're looking at $xx-$####. Move up to something like that, with these improvements over the first example, and the cost will probably be $####-$xxxx." Cost is only A variable in my final choice between competing products/people, but it is my initial qualifier: if what I want costs more than I have allotted for it, further discussion is irrelevant.
"What would it take to close this deal today?"--another I've heard from car and home appliance salespeople. Answer--unless you happen to be the last person I've talked to (so I've completed all my research) and it's early enough in the day for me to go home, enter your info into my spreadsheet, decide you're the one, and move the money from savings to checking to cover the purchase, an unmistakeable sign from God will be needed. Even with a sign, I still don't like the question.
I'm sure this stuff works for a lot of salespeople with a lot of customer types. We hang around with a lot of engineers. None of them have any use for these techniques; several of them have come up with ways to work them against the salesperson.
For general "how to deal with people" books, I highly recommend Management of the Absurd by Richard Farson. Easy reading, entertaining, insightful.
Kathleen
My thoughts, too. Like spamail, it must work on some of the people some of the time, or my inbox wouldn't contain any of it.
katiewa,
Face it, you aren't familar with the art and skill of negotiation. You pay list price for groceries, clothes, and virtually everything else you buy.. On the rare occasion when negotiation skill is called for you feel like everyone is going to cheat you..
You are asking someone to work for you with no assurance of any pay when you ask for a bid. So remember that when you ask for help. It's not a number that should be pulled out of thin air, not if you want accuracy. So do not rush the process by demanding instant answers.. Accept that this is something where both parties must learn and evaluate..
As for If I can, ..... will you......,, you brought it on yourself.. You asked for something which the person you asked it of doesn't have the answer or the right to give an answer.. They are working for you to provide you with answer
It's a way they evaulate how serious you are.. For example if you show up with a car that is worth $400 in trade but you want $1000 for it the salesman asks you if you are willing to deal if he figures out a way to get you that $1000.
We've all heard customers come in and ask for something then after work and effort we give it to them and suddenly they ask for more.. There are rules to it and when you violate those rules salesmen know either that you are a cheater or you are ignorant..
frenchy, From a buyers side , a story. I bought a car for my kids when they were old enough to drive, saw one that looked interesting and stopped at the used car dealer. Looked it over, salesman approached me, asked what he could do for me .
I said , " Sell me that car for $1500.00 (listed at $2000.00), no trade in , cash deal. Told him he had 5 minutes to tak to his boss and come back with an answer. Four minutes later he is still standing their "selling" me and negotiating. I looked at my watch , told him he now had 60 seconds left. I got the car after he RAN to get the OK. I hate negotiations and won't indulge in bargaining.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"I hate negotiations and won't indulge in bargaining."You might not realize it but your very good story was excellent example of a negotiation and a bargaining technique. No matter how you structure it, there is always a negotiation going on. Frenchy brought up the retails sales example of paying list price. You might not think a negotiation is going on there either, but that isn't the case. The price marked on the tag is the opening gambit. The buyer decides which he wants more: his money or the goods. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What all of these selling strategies forget is that, when you've been taught all those things, and you're on the buying side, it can become quite amusing.
Having spent countless hours on Features/Advantages/Benefits, and ABC, the Habit of Selling, and all those similar programs, I find myself tuning out and drifting off when these sales strategies are used on me. When a salesperson starts asking all of those open questions, trying to determine my 'needs' etc, I do one of two things: I either tune them out, and don't pay any attention to them, or I answer by agreeing with whatever they are saying. Then I wander off and do my own research.
"Then I wander off and do my own research."What if there isn't any place to do the research? Occasionally, when I encounter someone using too many or inappropriate sales techniques on me, I will also amuse myself, and them, by commenting back to them on how nice of a technique they just used. It's fun. I might say something like "Nice trial close" or "nice qualifying question...is that a Zig Ziglar tip?" or "excellent rapport building question" etc. Its actually a fun thing to do with telemarketers although I don't get many anymore. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
HammerHarry
I know! I buy things too!
As does every salesman.
I learn to listen for and appreicate good timing, sharp intelligent questions. Not just route selling which so many are guilty of..
One person in hundred remains in the craft 5 years after they start out of those only one in a hundred earns above average earnings during his lifetime..
I give every salesperson a chance. When they start out with formulaic selling I explain to them that I've been a salesman all of my life and that they missed this oppertunity to close or failed to ask this question..
The second time I look them in the eye and tell them where they failed.. the third time I ask to see the salesmanager.. (If I'm still interested in the product)
What I've found is the good ones really watch their step while the lousy ones keep reciting.
I feel I'm doing a poor salesman a favor by getting him out of a brutal field he's clearly not prepared for.
As for If I can, ..... will you......,, you brought it on yourself.. You asked for something which the person you asked it of doesn't have the answer or the right to give an answer.. They are working for you to provide you with answer
It's a way they evaulate how serious you are..
Bingo!!
Two years ago I was working with a client on a plan for an addition. We had gone over a number of ideas and finalized what was going to happen. It was going to be over a crawl space, with a block wall. At the last minute she called and said "I am thinking about having a full basement under it."
Now it is her right to consider anything, but I also have to keep my schedule full. If this was just a ploy to have an excuse to stop the project, I have to know pretty quick because, I had already turned other work away. Sooooo..."If We can add the full basement for less than $10K are you still going through with the project?" "yes, I just think I may need more storage." (added cost was about $7.5K)
The unfortunate part about what the HO's here have said, is that they were victims of salespeople using techniques as a club to subdue, rather than a tool to lead.
Bowz
"If We can add the full basement for less than $10K are you still going through with the project?"
Why is this any easier/better/different than my asking what it would take--ballpark--to do a full basement? "Why all the coy disguises?"
Kathleen
Why is this any easier/better/different than my asking what it would take--ballpark--to do a full basement? "Why all the coy disguises?"
Good question. The answer will take some explaining, but first why would you not accept $10K as a ballpark number?
So to explain: I had worked with this client on a design/build agreement. She was adding on to the backside of an older ranch home with a block foundation. the access was an old but relatively good shape driveway.
I had already met with the excavator and mason and had their prices, based on my request to not have any heavy equipment on trhe driveway. That meant the mason was going to wheelbarrow the concrete for the footings, and have the block dropped at the road. Excavator was NOT to use a large steel tracked machine and NOT load a quad axle dump truck on the drive.
When the owner wanted to switch to a full basement, it changed a lot of things. First, I needed to know the excavator could still dig it with his smaller machine. Second is I will not use a block wall for a full height addition, so we are now changing to poured walls. Poured wall forms come in 1 foot increments, but now I need to total up to a fraction of a foot. (To match existing heights of a block wall, since block walls come in multiples of 8" heights) In the smash and dash world of pouring walls I need someone who will custom build an additional wood form on top of their metal forms to meet that requirement.
In addition we now have 3 different pours (footing, walls, floor)requiring concrete truck chute cleanouts in a residential area where the city frowns on wet concrete all over the road.
we also still have the requirement of not having heavy equipment on the driveway, so that is going to require 3 concrete pump, or conveyor setups at $550 per set up.
With a full basement we now get the plumber involved because it will need a sump pump, and possibly a floor drain. Floor drain will require busting out some of the existing floor to tie into the existing sanitary sewer. Existing footing drains are tied to the sanitary sewer, and if found by the inspector will need to be changed. (Won't happen if it is only a crawl space)
added cost to cut through the block wall to join the other basement.
So those are some of the factors that would need to be priced out. All within the customers right to request. But......I am hired to get her the best value for the money she is spending. I feel I have an obligation to know why she has decided to request this, and make her aware of the additional cost she will incure (because I am billing for my design time) by having me check into all of the above, and more. So $10K is a " ballpark", but I have no way of knowing for sure. (This was the 11th addition I have done, and none of them were "standard")
What I want to know is if she saw some DIY show on TV that says it doesn't cost all that much more to do a full basement rather than a crawl space, and she is expecting $1500 or so.
So i don't see it as a "coy disguise". I see it as gaining information that I NEED to assist the customer in making wise choices. how do you think she would react if I asked "Did you see some goofy remodeling show and think this is going to cost $1500"
I was surprised where the cost did come in, (I would have expected more) but I think the mason had bumped up his price as he was swamped, and the poured wall people were starting to feel the hurt of the slowdown.
I hope that gives you an idea of why I would ask that question..."If I can....will you...." It was also a possibility that she simply no longer wanted to do the project and didn't have the nerve to just say "let's forget about it".
as I thought about this response, It made me think how home owners want the best contractor. that takes years of experience. A contractor with years of experience is going to ask these types of questions. If a customer is put off by these questions, they probably will not access anyone with more than 10-15 years experience. The reason is sometime in those first 15 years the contractor will have gotten the "experience" of a bad customer, and figured out ways to avoid them.
If a customer is not a bad customer, then don't act like one, because all that will do is get you off a good contractors schedule. Not trying at all to be offensive. I feel for any homeowner trying to get work done, but I have a mortgage and family to feed, your project needs to fit my general direction of making a living. If that is a problem we both need to move on.
Thanks for the oppurtunity to explain.
Bowz
Bowz, I saw your quick "what if" question as a very natural lead in question to an honest discussion of the project. It's a qualifying question and there is nothing sinister about it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Part of the reason I asked was also because she mentioned her neighbor told her she should do it. Wow!!! we now have someone else influencing the decision proccess very late in the game. So another question I asked was to have the neighbor included in all our other discussions. (Thank You Eric Paulson for having had the same experience and throwing it on this board a couple years ago so we all could learn!!!)
She assurred me that he had approved of every other detail, and would not be a problem during construction. And he wasn't.
one other thing to consider was can the conveyor/pump boom clear the power lines, which required one of the truck drivers to inspect the site. not a typical problem in a sub-division, but in an older part of town a poured wall may have required a lot of labor to wheel mud to the forms. So i understand Kathleen's desire for a simple answer, and her experiences being abused by other salespeople, but the reality is there may not be a simple answer.
there is nothing sinister about it.
No, the sinister part is not asking it, and wasting everybody's time if it is not doable in the end.
Bowz
kathleen...
<<my asking what it would take--ballpark--to do a full basement? "Why all the coy disguises?">>>>>
most of the time these are not coy disguises.. they are honest answers
if you are dealing with a salesman working out of a bid book.... then fine
but if you are dealing with a contractor trying to determine your needs.. then "ballpark" is just such a ridiculous concept that it galls me
what if i "ballpark" your basement at $5000 and it actually comes in at $10,000 ?
remodeling and construction are all prototype development... so .. how much does it cost to develop a prototype ?
some, thru ignorance, desire to please, or dishonesty... will tell you what you want to hear... but that won't give you the finished product Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"remodeling and construction are all prototype development... so .. how much does it cost to develop a prototype ?"I gotta remember that analogy! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
156 out of 173??!!?? I knew I was behind by a few replies--but not that much!
Mike Smith--
what if i "ballpark" your basement at $5000 and it actually comes in at $10,000 ?
Without reading through everything I've missed, perhaps part of what is going on with the "ballpark" vs. proper estimate thing is more about comfort levels. If you "ballpark" my basement at $5000 and I was thinking $1000, I know I'm way over my head and there is no point in paying you to develop a proposal--waste of your time and my money for something that is clearly out of my reach.
If your "ballpark" was $5000 and I was thinking $4000, for me, that'd be close enough to ask you to do a proper estimate. Even if your formal estimate came in at $10000, that's only 2.5 times what I was thinking, versus 5 times what I was thinking in the first example. For me, that is easier to accept, and allows for continued discussion--"Is this a 'bare bones' estimate? Or is there any way to cut back somewhere and get it to, say, $8000?"
remodeling and construction are all prototype development... so .. how much does it cost to develop a prototype ?
This is a good analogy, although it feeds my fear that a project will be entirely too expensive. Everybody knows that only large, well-funded corporations or incredibly wealthy individuals can afford to fund prototypes, so, obviously, I can't afford to do this!!
One of the replies way back mentioned something to the effect that it sounded like the selling process scared me. There is some truth in that. My parents raised me to "know" that many things (almost everything other than the essentials) were "very expensive"--no discussion about the cost of an item versus how much money was in the budget, or how to come up with the extra money by cutting back somewhere else or working an extra job because they had no idea what the actual cost was and had no intention of trying to find out. I still struggle against this in many things, paralyzed by fear that a salesperson (or whomever) will think I'm stupid for even considering a purchase. (Note: This view of my parents is not merely childhood memories--last I talked to them, they still do it, and my husband and sister-in-law have confirmed my observations.)
Instead of asking for a ballpark estimate, would a better approach be "I'm trying to figure out if I can even afford to do Project X. I've got about $xx to work with. Any chance of making it work?"
Kathleen
"Instead of asking for a ballpark estimate, would a better approach be "I'm trying to figure out if I can even afford to do Project X. I've got about $xx to work with. Any chance of making it work?""That would be the easiest way for a solid relationship to start out, assuming that the contractor is honorable and the buyer is sincere. It also steers the entire discovery process in the right direction, right out of the gates. Most wary buyers (me) don't place enough faith in the seller to expose my "top end". It is an unfounded fear because ultimately, I control the most important element in the process: the right to say yeah or nay. So, a sales person might try to coax a budget out, or just come right out and directly ask it. Each technique has a ying and yang. Each should be considered carefully before tossing them out. At some point, though, a busy contractor has to make sure he's not chasing a rainbow and the busier the contractor, the more likely he would be apt to come out with this question very early in a conversation, even if it means you chase off the more timid buyers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
...the buyer is sincere....
So suppose I'd sincerely like to do Project X, but I have no idea what it will cost or what the process is--even the HGTV shows that I like don't generally talk about the cost. The one that really talks about costs is the one about selling your house--and selling a 1200sq.ft., 2-bedroom house for $500K is simply beyond my comprehension because I don't live in California.
So I try reading some books--they all say to talk to your friends for recommendations on contractors and then get 3-4 bids. None of my friends has ever had any work done, but one friend's sibling's friend's parents used Mr. X and were very pleased. I look up Mr. X in the Yellow Pages--not listed. I assume he must have moved, retired, or gone out of business, but I call my friend anyway to ask his sibling to talk to his friend's parents to check.
Since I already have the phone book open, and since my efforts to find someone based on recommendations has stalled, I try the random calling approach based on the ads in the Yellow Pages. Call everyone listed--leave voice mail on 3 calls, although the message didn't tell me if I'd reached a business or someone's home phone; 4 actually pick up the phone--1 says he's too busy; 1 says he doesn't do that kind of work anymore; 2 agree to come talk to me and look at my house--only one shows. After two weeks the voice mails have not returned my call.
It takes a month for my friend to get back to me on Mr. X, but the guy is still in business. I call the number--sounds pretty solid--but he's busy and can't come talk to me till week after next. So the one person who did come out to talk to me initially will have been waiting about 7 weeks at that point, and I'm nowhere near making a decision. First guy is getting impatient, thinks I'm just another ignorant customer--which I am, even though I'm trying not to be, and I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. Mr. X calls three times to reschedule our appointment--for apparently valid reasons, but on the third time I give up. It's not like I really needed Project X--I've lived without it for this long, a little longer won't kill me. Now two contractors think another homeowner was just wasting their time, and another homowner thinks contractors are flakes.
*********
Selling construction appears, from the customer side, to be very different from most other things: there's nothing for me to inspect other than, perhaps, a drawing. That's why I continue to think that educating the customer as to the process and quick communication are the best way for a contractor to sell him/herself.
Kathleen
Great presentation of the problem as seen from the consumers point of view.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Selling construction appears, from the customer side, to be very different from most other things: there's nothing for me to inspect other than, perhaps, a drawing. That's why I continue to think that educating the customer as to the process and quick communication are the best way for a contractor to sell him/herself."I think Mike was trying to explain the difficulties of the pricing policies in the same way by referring to the project as a prototype. It is a different selling process and quite frankly, most of us go about it in the wrong way. The right way is to understand the budget first, then talk about what can be done within those budget constraints. Buyers want to explore everything first, then get a price. A contractor could waste thousands of dollars in time, giving away pointless consultation hours. Heres' an analogy: I bought my laptop for $399. It's a throwaway but it does everything for me that I want. Eventually, though, I want a larger screen. I'm going to get myself a Mac, I've decided. If I walk into that Apple store with the intention of buying myself a new laptop, I'm going to be thinking about spending an extra hundred dollars for a larger screen...right? So, lets assume that I don't discuss the budget with the nice saleslady. She starts showing me all the laptops and explaining all the nice features. Each feature is interesting and I ask lots of detailed questions. Eventually, I figure out that I want this, that and include that and that. She tells me it will be $3500! My eyes open wide and I ask: what do you have for $500? She says: "Nothing". I walk out the door empty handed and waste an hour of her time and mine. I'm shell shocked. That is what happens all the time in construction. Experienced sales people know that they have to qualify their buyers quickly or they could waste not just the first hour of consultation but many, many hours after than pricing out somebody's dream addition when they can't afford the paint and caulk, much less the foundation and shell. The sales person walks a tight line. If they banter around ballpark prices, the buyers hears "firm price". I've been knocked out of bidding on people's projects simply because I've mentioned that the range is "x" to "z". The "z" was too high, so I wasn't ever considered for a project. Your tale of finding a contractor to start the process is a different subject. I'm not diminishing the value of the idea, it's just a different topic other than selling tips unless you want to say: return calls promptly! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Kathleen,
I was in a similar position as you were prior to building my house. The differance is that at that point I had more than a decade of contact with many contractors. I had over the years recieved an education with regard tradional stick framing techniques and costs..
Yet I had no idea of what my house would cost..
I wanted something completely differant from what is normally done. The only contractor willing to even shoot me a ballpark number clearly did want to tackle the task. He quoted 1.1 million for it half done and still unfinished.. (oops, estimate not quote)
Have you ever watched Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House? (Cary Grant, Mirna Loy)? Great movie to watch to approach any remodeling or house building project..
The reason I bring it up is that it sounds insane but if you approach this with a flexible frame of mind the whole process goes easier..
Great builders may make lousy salesmen, great salesmen may represent lousy companies.. Not everyone is honest, Not everyone will cheat you..
This is a process that is best taken slowly and carefully.. You have seen that finding a good contractor is a serious part of the equation. Don't be surprised if a good contractor is a lousy salesman How does it go,
Jack of all trades master at none?
"Don't be surprised if a good contractor is a lousy salesman"Amen to that! I'm in the process of vetting subcontractors. If I ruled out everyone of them that had flaws in their presentation, I'd be working alone. Out of more than a hundred responses, one has been professional, with flaws. One approached professional. The rest have been far below average unless I grade on a curve. If I grade on a curve, they all are average. Some get worse when I attempt to clarify things.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
frenchy... good post..
besides " Mr. Blanding Build's his Dream House"
another good refernce is .... "House" by Tracey Kidder
one of these days .. i should write a book.. let's see..
" Humble Carpenter living Day -to- Day".... whadda ya think ?
edit: based on some of Huck's posts.. i'm thinking he should be the one to write a book
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/20/2008 11:10 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike
I agree House is an excellent read, the reason for my preference for the movie is it shows in a way that's easily understood just why budgets have to be a bit flexible with regard costs..
I especially appreciate it when the well digger comes with his modest refund showing his honest nature in an area where it would have been extremely easy to pocket the difference.
That in many ways has been my experience with contractors.. By and large most are honest decent folk who's industry is being ruined by a few unscrupulous or bad apples..
The average citizen has no way of telling the good from the bad,, they've all heard the horror stories. And because the horror stories make better reading than the story's of jobs well done thatis what is stuck in people's minds..
I'm sure that is how Kathleen sees the process.. Since she has no way of knowing the real truth and clearly is afraid of the process it will be extremely hard for her to ever relax and enjoy reality of the process.
I've been working in sales for five years and prior to this job had never negotiated anything.I was very uncomfortable making an offer on a car, a house, or even a an electric drill at a garage sale.I just didn't have any experience.Anyway, I've got some experience now and what this does is helps you when you are selling something and someone approaches you and "makes an offer" or tries to talk you down or persuade you to sell them your car, house, or motorcycleetc for less than the asking price.It applies to anyone who is trying to sell you anything or pursuade you to buy their product or service. Such as insurance or really anything.Anyway, About a year ago I had a 1991 toyota pickup for sale for $2,500.I drove it to the Walmart parking lot and parked it and left it with a for sale sign in the windshield.For the next 3-4 months I received phone calls every day. There is a lot of interest in these pickups.People would call and ask questions and I would drive to Walmart and start it up and let them listen to the engine running.I didn't sell the pickup. Some people would make low offers. Others would say "I'll get back to you". It was very frustrating. I got sick and tired of talking to these people. I was sick and tired of driving to Walmart and starting the pickup and letting them listen to it.So I tried something different. I started asking specific questions.Like who are you and where do you work. Will you pay cash or finance the vehicle.I really felt I could tell who was legit and who wasn't by how they sounded on the phone.People would call and ask me to go meet them so I would say "will you buy the pickup today if it runs good?"They would say "uh, well, ahh, hmmm, uh, err, I uh, don't know, uh and I would say "think about it and get back to me" and they would say "WAIT you mean you're not going to come down here and let me listen to it?"And I would say no, I don't have time right now. Goodbye.I took many many phone calls similar to the above. I really feel like I can tell who is legit and who isn't by how they sound on the phone.The other thing I would ask myself is "do I want to do business with this person?" If the "little man inside me" said "NO" then I would tell them "I'm Busy, Goodbye" People would freak out. They couldn't believe I wouldn't come talk to them and let them try to talk me down.Another thing I would ask them right up front is "do you know what those pickups are worth? They would say "uh, well, ahhhh, errr, uh, hmmm, ah, well, ahhhh, hmmmmm, uhhhh, well, NO I guess I don't.I would say, do your research and call me back. If you believe it's a fair price I'll meet you and show you the pickup.They couldn't believe it.Anyway, my question is, after you have some experience in sales, do you believe you can screen people and know who is legit prospective client or customer and who isn't just by talking to them on the phone?
"Anyway, my question is, after you have some experience in sales, do you believe you can screen people and know who is legit prospective client or customer and who isn't just by talking to them on the phone?"Absolutely! Thats the idea! In fact, this months "Remodler" magazine tells us that we should do exactly that, especially when faced with the down markets. They say that we have to ramp up our marketing but that will bring in more calls and leads. They warn us against chasing every lead in desperation and instead work it hard up front to qualify them and weed out the insincere buyers or the difficult ones. It makes sense. Lets say a great buyer comes in but they are the difficult and wary kind of person that will spend hours with you but at the end, say no because you slipped and said one wrong thing. It happens. You might not know it but it happens. The thing you do know is that difficult clients are notorious for burning through salespeople because "they are all selling snake oil". Do we have time to educate these types of buyers or would our time be better spent servicing the best clients, who end up with the same price structure but are much easier to communicate with. They end up getting the same service but much faster and they are a lot more fun to work with. I find it's better to spend more time on the initial call and drill them and qualify them. I know what I can do. I need to know that they can do what I need them to do: pay for their construction needs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
mrfixitusa,
to a degree, but people can and do fool you. It's better not to ask such structured questions if you are really seeking information, what I've found works best is open ended questions that require a more involved answer. That way in order to answer you intelligently they reviel more information.
Kathleen,
A good salesman will understand those fears almost instantly by your body language and your eye contact.. he will then base his responses in a manner to provide you with a non-threatening involvement with the sale..
That is one way you can tell who you are dealing with. Does he make you feel comfortable..
If he does then you can go on to the next stage which should be a full disclosure of your goals and concerns.. That part is critical. You want good information and you need to understand that to give you good information he needs to get good information from you..
For example how much will the process worry you? Will there be a need for a lot of hand holding step by step as he destroyes your house to make it into what you want. How reasonable will you be? For example my neighbor ragged on the carpenters endlessly about the door being crooked. It was crooked but that was because the wall was crooked and he'd made the best possible compromise. The contractor was forced to remove the door install it square and level and show her how bad that would look and then remove it and reinstall it as it originally was in order to get it to look decent..
The alternative was a whole new foundation for the house. The carpenters threatened to quit every single day they worked there. They just couldn't tolerate such abuse.. The contractor lost his shirt on the job and the only reason he finished it was to preserve his reputation..
By the time the job was finished she'd learned enough about the process that she was far more reasonable to the next contractor. The reason the first contractor had such a hard time is she was scared.. and she took her fear out on everyone..
If you were that contractor do you think you'd willing to step into the next job without a lot more information?
THat's just one of the reasons why there aren't simple answers to seemingly simple questions..
kathleen..
in your case i would use examples
"well we built a 2-car garage for Mrs.X that cost $27,000" or...
" the last foundation we did cost $7,000"... but... but.. but...
you're not building a foundation......you're building a (house) (garage) (addition)
choose one
so the cost of a foundation is immaterial... i want to know what it is you'd like aso i can figure out how to do it
i can show you my picture book and relate experiences that go along with the pictures.. i can tell you the names of the customers..
i can tell you what things cost then
( like the house my wife & i built for $27,000 )... the things we build are moving targets..... the typical window used to cost $50.... now it costs $350...
concrete was $27/cubic yard... now it's $110
i used to work for $5/ hour....
last year gas was $2
so..... unless you are talking to someone who specializes.. like a foundation contractor... or a drywall guy... or a plumber... all of these " how much does it cost" questions are not doing you any good
i know some people who act as their own GC's.. they may even be better at what they are doing than me.. but the are only trying to please one customer... themselves.. and all of their savings / expenditures accrue tothem
i can think of 3 people in that category..... i'm pretty sure they are all retired and two are millionaires.. and one , i'm pretty sure is a billionaire ( he owns 27 private planes, two houses with airplane hangers.... that i know of )
i know lot's of other people who act as their own gc's who don't have a clue... make lots of mistakes and would be better off with a good GC
my point is this: if you just want to know how much something is going to cost... and it is not the toatality of what you are trying to achieve... then you are never going to know how much it costs until you are done...
i think there are about 5000 decisions to be made in building a house..each involves a cost... the average person with no prior knowledge of home building /remodeling may identify 75% of those costs and attempt to enumerate them..
they also have to make judgement calls about each vendor they are about to deal with
so... to return to the foundation
who's going to clear the lot, who's going to dig the hole, who's going to decide if you have suitable soil to support a foundation, who's going to provide drainage, who's going to form & pour, what strength of concrete are they going to use, what kind of reinforcement will they install, who's going to waterproof it, who's going to backfill it
does it include pads for the columns... are there any other concrete items that shoud be done at the same time ?
now..suppose you get three bids... will they all include all of the above in their "quote"-------"estimate"---------"Proposal"... will it be a binding price or not ?
see i think you have to devote some time to finding a contractor you trust.. .. or roll the diceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey, Frenchy-
I know you're out of work. How's the job hunt going?
Is the economy out by you decent enough to find a job that pays a living wage?
I'm not asking for me, just thinking about what you must be going thru.
Good luck.
Shep
It's terrible,, My basic problem is that for 17 years I stayed in construction equipment sales. That field is terrible and the job offers I've recieved are worse!
Selling right now costs time.. time in the field contacting potentional customers.. customers who have used other brands and see little or no reason to change. Sales always has been a commison only deal. You don't usually get a salary. You get paid when you are successful. When I was doing the job it was costing me about $50.00 a day in gas money alone. I could spend less but I would contact fewer and my income would be even less. Commision only deal means I could be working for two or three months before I even break even with my gas bill!
So the job offers I've recieved are from companies who had little previous market share and want me to get them one.. Why wouldn't they want to hire me? They stand to lose nothing since I take all the fincial risks.
Those in other fields simply aren't interested in hiring someone my age (near 60) because they figure I want to coast to my retirement.. They want younger middle age workers but they want my level of experiance and ambition.. I have yet to meet someone who can look past the age thing and seriously consider me..
Todays meeting was just such a deal.
In the food industry something I do have some experiance at and provided a recommendation from a previous employer which was glowing in their industry, but you could see the change from eager to a empty blank stare as they carefully made sure they conformed to the non-discrimination rules.. once they saw I wasn't 35 like is typically hired at that company.. (I didn't see one person over about 45) basically I got polite nods and faint smileswith a thanks for coming in (the sure death knell in an interview)
When I registered for employment with the state, the people all told me at my age to expect anywhere from a year to 18 months before I would be hired..
Since the family is spending $4200 more per month than we have coming in we make ends meet by taking money from our retirement. Hopefully once I'm back to working I'll make enough to put some of it back in but this will delay my retirement by a lot..
Frenchy, since I already went through a similar thing in MI, I'll make this recomendation to you. Make the 12,600 (4 months of zero income) investment and get started with those new companies that will hire you. Every month you wait gets tacked on at the end anyways. You've probably already wasted that much or more whining that no one will hire you. I'll take you here in Austin. I like old geezers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Selling to a degree is a pure numbers game.. I looked up my calls and interviews the last time I was unemployed and the economy was punk. Based on the numbers of calls I'm making and interviews I get I should be hired sometime around Feb. or March.. (if not before)
Based on the worst case it might be June..
Careful, Frenchy, or you'll get saddled with being a stereotypical "ageism victim". ;^)
splintergroupie,
But at least I'm not a woman looking to get a job that only men have had before ;-)
No, but you're facing a perception that you aren't going to be a good employee for a reason unrelated to your actual ability...that's the common denominator.I was wondering during your exchange with Katie if there isn't a legitimate concern on employers' parts about salesmen of a 'certain age' using old-fashioned techniques on a more savvy audience that can pick them out in an instant and resents such obvious attempts at manipulation. Considering that she and i have essentially the same gripes about the great majority of salesmen and their tactics, perhaps salesmanship in the current era needs to be modernized as well. I read of your own relentless, jargon-filled salesmanship and Jim's ripping through framers like water and having to relocate, so i can't help thinking maybe the bear economy is weeding out those guys selling buggy whips. Nothing against either of you personally - i think you're the bees knees, left and right - but i think it's illustrative already that your attempts to 'sell' katie on your vision includes your hide-bound adherence to rules (she's already said she doesn't like if-i-will-you, yet you defend it; "there are rules in negotiation") and Jim's telling her she's playing a sexist victim.Bowz is gonna get that job bec he's prepared to explain the ramifications to Katie about why her new idea costs what it costs and he hasn't rolled his eyes at her consulting with her friend, but is amenable to the 'consultant' being in the picture as an ally, not an additional enemy.
thanks splintie for nailing it smack on the head.
splintergroupie,
In any exchange between combatants there are rules to adhere to. Trade is just such an exchange.. there are rules in the courtroom, rules on the tennis court and rules in the art of negotiation...
If you go on the tennis court and insist that the ball gets to bounce twice or go into court and yell at the judge the results will be negative.. There aren't rules for men and rules for women there are simple rules..
You either learn them or be at a disadvantage to those who know the rules and adhere to them..
Just so you know some of the very best salespeople I've met have been women. They've learned the rules and how to apply them and are very talented at their job..Yes they may flirt shamelessly with guys who are vulnerable to such things but that is one of the rules..
One of my neighbors sells High end imported cars. She isn't very knowledgeable about those cars from a technical perspective. What she does know sounds supsciously like it's simply memorized and recited without a real understanding of what she is selling and why it's important..
Yet she remains in that job for several decades now while plenty of men with superior mechanical knowledge but no real sales skills have come and gone..
It's not about geneder. It's about skills..
Please, please, please start teaching salespeople. In whatever fields. You could do it with some $down and then a percentage over the year. With refreshers thrown in. Go with them in the field, give them instant feedback, video them, give them paperwork, closes, trial closes, all you have been giving here. You could make up the $4200 plus much with this. I come from a family of salespeople, successful ones and you are one of the best I have heard on the subject. You are also one that can explain to others how it is done. This is the hard part. If you can teach this, it is money in the bank for you.What do you think? email me at [email protected] if I can help in this endeavor. thanks
Now you are asking Frenchy to cross over. Just because he can sell, doesn't mean he can teach! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
drapson,
I looked into something similar a while back and the bottom line is that it works, briefly.. Not long enough to make a career of it though..
Few people are willing to invest in their selling career (maybe the reason so few succeed) and even fewer companies are willing to allow their staff time off to learn..
Sales management is a poorly understood job.. most managers are expected to provide all sorts of data and records to justify both their costs and position..
That turns the average sales manager into a manager not a salesman.. sales managers are normally promoted from inside the ranks of salesmen.. that's a double blow to the company.. they likely loose their best salesman to mere record keeping but they also get a poor manager.. great salesmen sell, not do accounting..
Teaching selling is both time consuming and intense.. Massive amounts of information must be conveyed in too short of a period.. During those periods, snap shots really, impressions are made.
The one thing I know is there is no such thing as a good profile of a salesman. The absolute best salesman I've trained had more natural ability than I ever will.. He was a former mechanic who smashed his hand doing his job.. he had a massive stammer. A whole sentence was pure agony to listen to (so much for the glad handing smooth talking sterotype) He was passive and never ever once was pushy.. but he could connect! Connect in ways Most of us only dream of.. I showed him how to sell and he did all the rest.
" Sales management is a poorly understood job.. most managers are expected to provide all sorts of data and records to justify both their costs and position.. That turns the average sales manager into a manager not a salesman.. sales managers are normally promoted from inside the ranks of salesmen.. that's a double blow to the company.. they likely loose their best salesman to mere record keeping but they also get a poor manager.. great salesmen sell, not do accounting."Exactly! That concept is explained clearly in the book about management titled "First, Break all the Rules".
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I know it isn't about gender. You seem to have forgotten that i sold widgets and my own furniture for 20-some years. I learned a few things about selling, but i certainly didn't think of let alone treat my customers like "combatants", for gawd's sake! In some ways what i did was harder that you in that i separated people from their Fun Money, generally while competing with 350 other artists at a show who were trying to do the same thing to the same people, probably while it was raining catsndogs. My customers didn't come in my booth already knowing they needed a Splintergroupie jewelry box, unlike yours who had already self-selected for the machinery you sold. When i noticed some folks complimenting my cribbage boards but saying they didn't know how to play, i made up a pamphlet of cribbage rules and told them about cribbage clubs, how the Law School students at UM are cribbage fanatics, etc. They left my booth feeling i'd just sold them a lifetime of fun and human interaction...and i had! I had a 100% money-back, life-time guarantee on my cutting boards - and i meant it! - which also offered me an opportunity to tell them WHY it would last that long. It sounds crazy, but the few cutting boards i replaced (<20) paled in comparison to the thousands i sold bec i offered that outrageous warranty.I don't know how to play cribbage or cook, but i offered a good reason to buy from me instead of someone else, which certainly wasn't based on shaking my fanny in anyone's face. Perhaps your neighbor employs a sales technique i've never been tempted to use and never needed bec i know my way around a woodshop - and an art fair.
Splinter,
Got any other boards to sell?? Cribbage is the official game of The Great State of Maine!
Walter
Send me an address, Walter. I was rootling around in my room full of stored stuff since The Great Move (2003, but who's counting?) and found a box of a several dozen of them i didn't know i had. I sent about half of those to a gallery last Thanksgiving, but i feel rather rich in cribbage boards. Just one thing...when i get to Maine, will you teach me to play? LOL...i guess i didn't know my product THAT well...
I would expect to pay - so please enclose an invoice too.
I'll send my physical address by e mail thru the site here.
As far as I can tell you're the only one to make a sale thru this thread- but the " experts" are giving you some grief !!!
Thank-you, Walter! Looking at a loooooooong winter??? I wonder if Justin is going to want his 15%. LOL...
I'm going to take a few pics tomorrow and have you choose which one since they're all a bit different in color. I hope i haven't rec'd your email addy bec you haven't sent it yet...???
You're right- I was posting pictures in two threads last nite as well as mouthing off in a slate roof forum, in addition to being tuckered out from my 5 A. M. departure to Vinalhaven.
I'll send it off shortly- check out "waiting for a crane" thread. You'll love the joinery. I bet Frenchy would enjoy it too.
Walter
"when i get to Maine, will you teach me to play"
Repeat after me:
15, 2; 15, 4; that's all she wrote, and there aint no more!!
I fondly recall university days skipping afternoon classes to play crib. And now, my 10 year old daughter loves to play.
I captured the market on three-track boards; i found the instructions for three-handed crib when i was making up my instructions pamphlet. I'd sell a lot to parents who would use it to painlessly teach counting to their kid. I ended up making 10% of my boards as "Triple Trackers".
I think i have some sort of mental block when it comes to remembering rules. I'm a dangerous woman on a Scrabble board, but it feels like i'm color-blind when i get to card games. Your 10 y.o. would whup my butt, for sure.
"When i noticed some folks complimenting my cribbage boards but saying they didn't know how to play, i made up a pamphlet of cribbage rules and told them about cribbage clubs, how the Law School students at UM are cribbage fanatics, etc. They left my booth feeling i'd just sold them a lifetime of fun and human interaction...and i had! I had a 100% money-back, life-time guarantee on my cutting boards - and i meant it! - which also offered me an opportunity to tell them WHY it would last that long. It sounds crazy, but the few cutting boards i replaced (<20) paled in comparison to the thousands i sold bec i offered that outrageous warranty."How interesting! You are using some of the exact same techniques described above by Frenchy and got results and don't see yourself as a villain! You "noticed". Frenchy told us to watch for visual clues.You heard "compliments" and heard the "objections" about not knowing the rules. Frenchy told us to listen for the signals because there is opportunity there.You "made a pamphlet" which served their needs. Serving the needs is the entire point of the sales process. It makes the sale, not the talking! You "told them about cribbage clubs, how the Law School students at UM are cribbage fanatics," is a sales presentation technique because "we buy on emotion and rationalize the purchase with facts". "They left my booth feeling i'd just sold them a lifetime of fun and human interaction...and i had!" See above. Your enthusiasm and belief in your product could be looked upon as a sales technique and demonized, or it can be looked at for what it really is: enthusiasm and love for your product. By offering the "100% money-back, life-time guarantee" you are now entering into the sleazy salesperson zone....using your standards of rating salespeople unless you have actually banked some money in a self sustaining trust fund to back up your claim. Or, you were just offering additional benefits with your product which could be construed as an "inducement" or "promotion".... "which also offered me an opportunity to tell them WHY it would last that long." That statement sounds like you have become a full fledged shyster if you believe that using sales techniques are old fashioned. I'm not busting you, I'm trying to show you that you probably used every technique in the book and they all had names and you didn't know it! There is nothing wrong with sales: they are necessary in every aspect of our lives. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
You also neglected to mention that Splintergroupie is using the very technique she finds so offensive. If I can,... will you.....?
If I can interest you in the game of cribbage will you buy my boards, If I can include a set of rules will you buy my boards, if I can give you a lifetime warrantee will you buy my boards..
She's also displaying the technique of ABC (always be closing)
The real differance is that she's using the things I said about timing and making the presentation relative and important to her customers.
You don't tell them all about the router you used,, you tell them that the edges are smoothed over so it feels nice. You don't tell them who sharpened your blades you comment about how smooth things feel .
I suspect that Splintergroupie either learned or is a natural salesperson. However even natural salespeople can still become more effective if they learn the rules and techniques of selling..
You are absolutely correct when you say that there are a lot of lousy salespeople out there.. Some will never become very good no matter how much training and education they recieve. Yet the turn over is way too high in the field without proper training and education..
"You are absolutely correct when you say that there are a lot of lousy salespeople out there.. Some will never become very good no matter how much training and education they recieve. Yet the turn over is way too high in the field without proper training and education.."I know because I'm one of those lousy salespeople! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"100% money-back, life-time guarantee" you are now entering into the sleazy salesperson zone
No, Jim. You left out the part where i really, truly meant it.
True story: two years after i stopped doing shows, i got a call from a guy north of here who said my cutting board fell apart. I had him ship the board back to inspect it bec i can tell at a glance what thing[s] had been done to it that i counseled against - there's also a pamplet about the care and feeding of cutting boards. <g>
That one, completely unfixable, had me stumped, though, and i didn't have any boards left that were that nice, only plain ones. so i sent him his $45 dollars back saying i didn't have a clue what had caused the problem and couldn't in good conscience make him another that might do the same. He sent me back a check of his for $25 - 'fessing up that he's used the board to plop chickens on straight off the rotisserie and figuring he got a couple years out of it anyway.
Now, if i'd just made up that story to sucker you in, i'd be a sleazy salesperson. If it's true, it's an example of how i look at customers as partners with me in this Golden-Rule thang.
"No, Jim. You left out the part where i really, truly meant it. "Meaning it, and actively taking steps to properly fund for it are two different things. I'm not going to debate you on the merits of your offer because that's not the point. The point is that you are using a sales technique when you offer it and if we followed your logic that all sales techniques are bad, because they have a name or some bad unethical salesperson has used it, then your offer is sleazy. I don't believe it is sleazy, but it is naive for a seller to think that they will forever be able to cash in on that warranty. Who will honor it when you die? Won't those boards last longer than you? Incidently, my Mom stayed here for the holidays and put a good whupping on me in cribbage. I started off with a bang and went steadily downhill after than. She is the world champ now. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
if we followed your logic that all sales techniques are bad
But that's NOT what i said, is it? I spoke of old-fashioned tactics and why they aren't apparently working anymore, not all sales techniques. I simply prefer to have my customer eating out of my hand compared to ramming my product down his throat. What i don't do is blame customers for not buying whatever i'm selling. If i do that, i've surrendered any power to change my situation, and there's a very, very, very, very dim possibility that will happen. <G>
splintergroupie,
You seem extremely defensive about your sales techniques.. and more than willing to attack methods which have been proven for longer than either of us have been alive..
I might point out that you are guilty of such sleazy tactics (your words)
If I can,.... will you..... is used all throughout your presentation..for example..
If I can show you that a cribbage board is interesting and fun will you buy my board..
If I can include a set of the rules with my boards will you buy my boards,
If I can give you a lifetime warrantee will you buy my boards..
What's more that approach uses the ABC rule (always be closing)
You didn't settle on one method to handle objections, you have at least three that you've mentioned.. Plus in your script above I read several more..
I too want my customers happy with their purchase. What makes you think that I don't? I've given countless examples Of why and how..
The fact that I provide financing to purchase my product means that I have even more reason to make sure they are happy.. IF they aren't, I get it back!
Tactics and technique are only sleazy if they are poorly used or misapplied.. very early on I said people should learn to read body language and watch the eyes..
You reinforced that by your early comments about how you tell if someone is interested in your products..
If selling well is sleazy than Splintergroupie you seem to be extremely sleazy.. I think like anything else, do it well and it stops being sleazy and becomes effective..
Frenchy, shes goooooood. Read that post where she's "developing rapport" by showing them her chopped fingers. Did you notice her "counteroffer" when the "prospect" asked for a "discount"? She countered with "a quantity" "discount". Geez.....I'm seeing a whole lot of "old fashioned" sales techniques. I can see that this entire discussion is nothing more than a sidebar about semantics. I hereby proclaim that there is nothing going on here. Folks...you can all go home! And yes Splinty, I have fired far too many because I had a very weird market and dynamics to work in. For instance, remember the job where we blitzed through 35? That happened because we needed people and I had a partner doing the interviewing. Every day, he'd come in and tell me "I hired a good one last night..." Every day, no one would show up. Then, he started hiring two and three at a time.....they wouldn't show up. Finally, I said "Charles...hire everybody who calls...I don't care...just get them out here, the builder is bitchin every day at me". The next day it looked like a Walmart shopping center! I still laugh thinking about those guys crawling all over the house like ants! Not a one of them had any clue LOL! I was scared that they'd walk off the second story! My stomach hurts thinking about it. I did get a great compliment from the building inspector though....after I spent many hours fixing things.I'm real glad you never had to put up with the flim flam that tried to be carpenters. One of the good things about the bad market is that is sorts out the wannabees. We would be swamped back in MI right now but they still won't pay what we need to stay in business. The prices are pre 1990 right now with 2010 costs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If you wish to jam my techniques into boxes you're familiar with, you are free to do so. However, i don't view If I can include a set of the rules with my boards will you buy my boards as a negotiable quantity, but rather as a way to add value to my product for very little cost. I would no more have negotiated that than i would have negotiated including the pegs with the board (ditto for your other examples). It was simply something to make my product superior to my competitors' board, making it an easier-to-sell product, meaning i could still make a living despite my sucky sales attitude. <G>
I don't think i ever intimated you didn't want your customers to be happy with their product. Why are you being so defensive about that? <G>
Tactics and technique are only sleazy if they are poorly used or misapplied.. very early on I said people should learn to read body language and watch the eyes.
Amen to that! However, when you encounted some observations/objections from the customer, backed up by another, your response was
Looks to me like you need a new prescription on those reading glasses, eh?
Splintergroupie,
I agree that you didn't use the technique to it's full capability,, that's why I suggested you were a merchant rather than a sales person. Somehow people get the idea that selling things makes you a salesperson.. There is a differance between selling and being a clerk. You merchandised the product well and as a result sold many.
I believe my response to Katrina was spot on.. Darn few Americans feel comfortable in negotiations and understand that it is a give and take situation where they should achieve their own goals while allowing the other person to achieve theirs.
Most Americans want to "Win" in negotiations rather than be concerned that the deal is fair to both parties..
She's had experiance with those who use technique poorly and assumes that poorly used and applied technique is somehow how it should be used..
Like you when I am able to help people achieve their own goals and ambitions I enjoy it tremendously.. Unlike you I don't sell things that people don't need. I help them make a smart decision.. MY guarantee is that it's my money they are using and if it isn't working I'm the one who loses..
Your guarantee was only that if the board failed you would replace it at no charge. Not that they would continue to like the board, not that the board would be profitable for them.. In fact while you personally choose to honor your warrantee, You didn't ever back that up by giving them the money it takes to buy the board and letting them pay you back from the profits they made from the board..
Your guarantee was only that if the board failed you would replace it at no charge. Not that they would continue to like the board, not that the board would be profitable for them.. In fact while you personally choose to honor your warrantee, You didn't ever back that up by giving them the money it takes to buy the board and letting them pay you back from the profits they made from the board..
Yeah, well...i'll bet you never has to re-glue a man-lift they sent through the microwave, either!
Her name's Katie, btw. <G>
You're a good sport, Frenchy. Have we thrashed this one completely?
splintergroupie,
Hopefully what I've explained will help you. That is my only intent. People need to understand the process. It makes them better and more efficient buyers and it should raise the level of selling in the world.
Please read what I said to Mr. fixitusa about the first 30 seconds.. Think back to yourself when you were selling,, did you consciously or unconsciously do that? IF so I suspect you have better sales technique than you give yourself credit for..
I hate it when I see poor sales technique as much as when you see poorly made items sold.. And yes poor sales technique is when people are manipulated to do something they shouldn't do.
One final story..
When I first wanted to start a sales career the only place I could get a start was auto dealerships, everybody else wanted experience prior to hiring. Early on in selling cars a young farm kid came in all excited about getting a new Camero muscle car we had . Big farm kid.. I knew would be miserable in one.. the dealership didn't want to demo that particular Camero out of fear it would be thrashed by lookee-Loos. (jargon)
I needed to find a tactful way to tell this kid he was too big to fit in a Camero. So I took him aside and complained I was starving and needed to go get a sandwich would he mind joining me for a bite, my treat.
I made sure to grab another ordinary Camero to let him drive there and back.. I watched him stuff himself into that car and saw how miserable he was while chatting about the place we were going and how good looking the waitresses were. (hey, we were young guys!) He was pretty quiet and I knew I'd risked losing the sale.
When I got back I looked him square and said, it's too small for you. Do you want to try something a little more comfortable with the same engine? His eyes lit up and I knew I still had a deal. (he acted all cool and said, "well, he'd take a look")
I showed him a Monte Carlo only after I popped the hood and let him look at the engine..
He was ready to sign the deal, what is called a lay down.. But something warned me that I needed to be careful. So I asked another qualifying question, "who besides yourself will be riding in this car" ? Rather than ask what size his parents were I asked him if he'd like to take it home tonight to show them the color.. in the daylight. (it was his favorite color so I knew that was right but I worried that his parents might have trouble fitting in the car)
They came back the next day with their son all sheepishly explaining the car was just too small for them. asking how much would it cost to back out of the deal..
Deal what deal? You didn't buy it, all you did was sign for a test drive, promised me that you'd bring it back.
So you like that big engine? let's get you a car everybody fits in with that engine..
Sure it was a 4 door Impala but it also had a special trim package called the Spirit of America which made it just special enough so the kid was happy (he got the big engine he wanted too) and his parents were happy because they wouldn't be left behind.
Selling requires a lot of input from the customers to be effective, to fit right.. Not every customer knows what they really need. A great salesman doesn't just close the deal, he makes the sale work and fit..
I haven't sold cars now for over 3 decades but they still call me up and chat when car buying time comes around..
I do believe that's the first story i've ever heard of a strapping young buck shopping for muscle cars to take his parents joy-riding. Hold on....i gotta get me a new cup of coffee...
splintergroupie,
Didn't start out that way, he'd read about the car in magazines and came when we got our allotment.. He was a lay down (jargon) sold before he got there, wanted that car because of the magazine hype.
The step up to a Monte Carlo was just to fit in the car without pain.. Kid was only 18 years old. Old enough to buy a car but not old enough to go off on his own. Parents were bigger than he was by a fair amount.. I don't know what was said when he got at home. If it was a suggestion or orders or what.. Nice kid, nicer folks. real salt of the earth type.. Still are, still have a nice profitable farm just west of here.. he got married a few years ago and invited me. His bride was surprisingly small. Only about 5'10" maybe 155 pounds..
splintergroupie,
I used a couple of examples to refute your stero type of a salesman.. those certainly are not the only examples but time and my lousy typing skills would prevent me from giving you a complete list of the spectrum of selling.
Yes it is combat.. but combat can be fun as long as the rules are folllowed and everyone plays fair..
Those items you sold,, if someone came to you and insulted them and your profession and maybe even the clothes that you wore could you still sell to that person?
That's what being a professional salesperson is all about. It's differant from being a merchant with wares to sell..
I like what you did,, you cut out all the middlemen.. you manufactured and sold! That's a great endorsement of your skills and work ethic.. The only question to ask is which gave you greater pleasure, the selling or the making?
if someone came to you and insulted them and your profession and maybe even the clothes that you wore could you still sell to that person?
Usually i try to jolly them out of their belligerence. I used to get guys all the time who swore my husband must have made this stuff, right? I got a lot of mileage out of my amputated finger on those boys, sometimes followed with a nice discussion about the relative merits of the Unifence and Biesmeyer. <G>
Sometimes people would try to get a 'discount'. Now...i learned to haggled in Spanish, in Mexico, so haggling is huge fun for me. My counter was something on the order of, "Sure! You've apparently heard of my Quantity Discount! How many would you like?", all while i'm rubbing my hands together like Rumplestiltskin. This would get a big laugh, they'd get the message that i wouldn't discount on one item, and often i'd get a multiple sale out of it and they'd get 10% off. Depending on how much they'd buy, i'd often throw in a small cutting board or hand their daughter a barrette. I could make $235 worth of barettes per hour, but they were priceless as 'promotional advertising'. Again, i'm not against sales per se, just know there are some ways that leave people with a good taste in their mouths...and some that don't. I don't buy your distinction between salesmanship and being a merchant.
Some customers think of buying as combat, too, and i've become angry enough to walk away from my booth before pasting one in the kisser. There's a very nice wood working gallery in La Conner, WA, where i ran the gauntlet and i did business with the owner once, but declined to be so mistreated twice.
As to whether i liked making or selling...well, both were tantalizing and both were wearying. I'm so fortunate i found art fairs and other people like me...it was a godsend bec i kept getting fired from 'real' jobs. (Jim would've fired me, for sure! <g>) Really hard work and crazy hours, though.
Edited 1/10/2008 2:55 pm by splintergroupie
Some of the best salespeople are kids. Mo one can beat a 5 year old.Of course, we can't forget teenagers. Think of how the teenage girls suckerin the boys. And what about the boys, suckering in the girls. Life is all about sales.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Jim's ripping through framers like water"That's a mischaracterization and misleading statement. It also indicates that you totally missed the point.The truth is that I ripped through druggies, slouches and losers and fought my way to the real framers. Once we found each other, we get along well.You also are missing the larger point about discovery in the sales process. You call the techniques "old fashioned" because they have names. The reality is that the names are given as a way to explain what is happening. It's a way for sales people to analyze their efforts and understand what happened when a sale occurs and a sale fails. You seem to be implying that all sales people are evil and learning about sales is evil too. The reality is that every day, every one of us is buying and selling all the time. When two people meet, there is always a negotiation going on. There is always someone buying and someone selling whether they recognize it or not. For instance, when you made your post, you were trying to sell the readers on your point of view. You were using some technique that is recognizable to a master salesperson. When we read you words, we are buying, whether we want to believe that or not. Every interaction with you employee is a buy and sell situation. You are selling your leadership, they are buying, or rejecting it. There is a name for every encounter and you can call it "old fashioned" as a means of characterizing it in a demeaning way, but the reality is that you are right, it is "old" but it's not necessarily bad because every technique started when the first caveman grabbed the cavewoman by the hair and clubbed her. He was selling....she was buying. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's a mischaracterization and misleading statement.
It's certainly not a mischaracterization and doubtful it's misleading. One can legitimately ask why all the slouchers and slackers found you when so few good people drifted your way. One could put it down to the industry profile attracting those rough types, but your accounts sound remarkably like those of my chief competition in Missoula, a couple of brothers who do excellent work, but who tried for years to hire people off gov't employment programs because a portion of the wage was paid by the Gov't. They griped and complained incessantly that the guys couldn't read a tape measure, couldn't do simple math, etc. By contrast, i had a shopful of women (whose periods ended up synchronizing!), many of whom were working on their master's degrees, who approached ME for work, and whom i would be proud to call friends. They'd never read a tape measure before, but when i asked them to do a time study on our products, it got done right the first time.
every day, every one of us is buying and selling all the time
True, in the larger sense of the word. However, this conversation narrowly focuses on separating people from their money. I'm not dissing salesmanship at all, but i certainly look on it as a win-win now, instead of win-lose which is how the "combatant" language frames it. I think that basic orientation translates into other areas as well: i thought of a prospective employee interview as a two-way street, that we interviewed one another, rather than setting myself up as the Hiring-Firing Goddess.
The old-fashioned-ness i spoke of had to do with style of selling, not whether. Just as you look at an old toothpaste ad and smile at the lack of sophistication, so too might one-on-one salesmanship need a tune-up
In a nutshell, you've decided that I am the reason that only losers were applying to my company for work. You have no idea of how the market was and only see your situation as being relevant. The truth of the matter is that in MI, the subdivisions used to be crawling with crews and workers everywhere. The only people looking for work were the losers who had been cycled through framing crew after framing crew getting fired. I just happened to figure out that I might as well fire them immediately, rather than trying to work some magic. During the first fews years of my life, I thought I could change the world. After a few dreadful years of picking people up, bailing them out of jail, catering to their horrible work ethics, I finally woke up. It comes as no surprise to me that many others talk about the same path.The fact that fewer than 10% of the carpenters deserve to be called carpenters doesn't reflect anything about me or my business practices. All I can tell you is this: the guys that stayed with me will tell you that they learned a lot from me and appreciated their time with me and that once they understood me, I wasn't a bad guy to be around. Does it really have anything to do with me? No. It was that way because THEY were decent human beings and had a good work ethic. They didn't hoot at the teenage girls walking down the street. They didn't leer at homeowner ladies walking up to the job. They didn't use racial slurs against minority fellow workers. They respected the superintendents and other trades. I just don't feel any need to apologize for sorting out the losers who viewed my job as their last ditch effort to earn big bucks with a loser's work ethic. No ma'm....it wasn't going to happen and if you can't get to work on time the first day, YOUR FIRED! I remember my first day when I hired on with someone. I didn't know how long it would take to get there. I ended up being there an hour and a half early. I didn't get fired for showing up late. Do you see a difference in work ethics? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
In a nutshell, you've decided that I am the reason that only losers were applying to my company for work.
Not at all. I don't have much use for absolutes. However, it's easy to see that you take great pride in saying how many people you've fired, that's all. Since our respective businesses aren't comparable, i used an example from the exact same business as mine, and yet the brothers' experience with employees was so unlike mine and rather similar to yours.
You think the selection of employees was completely out of your control. To an extent it was bec you needed them more than they needed you, but i have difficulty thinking your 10% success rate indicated only the luck of the draw. I oculd be talking out my hat, too, but if you accept philosophically that there is something about the process you can tweak all by yourself, then you stand a chance of changing the odds instead of repeating history.
Hey...i'm on your side, believe it or not.
Bowz is gonna get that job
Thanks, now If I can just get your down payment we can get you on the schedule! LOL
Frenchy mentioned a tennis game. My analogy would be volleyball. as we bump, set and spike to each other, I am looking at your team. I am looking for the best spikers etc.
The "If I can ....Will you..." is an example of the ball in the air coming down on top of the net. If we both let it go it will drop on one side or the other, but nobody knows which side. What i want to do is use gently spike the ball right to one of your players, (named "are you serious), so that we keep the ball in play.
when i have found your best spikers (values, needs, wants) I try to get them (your spikers) in the front row. Then I either want to lob the ball to them or to your best setter, have it as the perfect set up, and leave a hole in my defense. Your spiker goes up and drives it right into the court on my side. High fives all around on your side, game set and match.................and I won!!!
Why? How?................Because the game I am really playing is called taking money to the bank! And I am going to do that when you feel you have won. Not running over me as a doormat, but as equals from different sides of the net.
Katie wanted to know if any of the books dealt wityh different personality types, and I think only Zig does it to any degree. He sold cookware during in-home parties for part of his career, so I have always felt his book most applies to how a remodeler must sell.
If you want to know if I change the way I do things for different genders, the answer is a definate yes. Also I will vary some by age too. A 45+ year old female has very different values and "hot buttons" than a 32 year old male. The questioning techniques are the same but I am going to get very different information.
I don't claim mastery of any of this, but the original poster is going to get his butt blown out of the water again if he is not at least aware of this stuff.
Bowz
"I don't claim mastery of any of this, but the original poster is going to get his butt blown out of the water again if he is not at least aware of this stuff."Yes....this is selling 101. Knowing the techniques and implementing them are vastly different things. The alarmists have pointed out that 98% of the sales people out there are very bad at the profession and sometimes are also negligent, manipulative and give the job a bad name. I think that thread would be a great one to talk about too. It would be called Ethics 101. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
A 45+ year old female has very different values and "hot buttons" than a 32 year old male.
Absolutely! I think what Katie was saying is not to assume all 45 y.o. women are going to be charmed by chrome, or unable to understand the difference between the block wall scenario and the poured foundation; i.e. don't take old-fashioned stereotypes and expect them to work universally anymore, or even generally. You know, i'm not sure those hi-pressure techniques EVER really worked. It could be that folks' access to items was not as good previously and they were simply forced to endure the hard-sell on their way to purchase. It could be there is more than price driving Internet sales; could be people are glad to chuck the sales pitch, too.
It's kind of funny, but there are two brothers in the valley who are involved in well drilling (Andy), pump installation (Steve). They are the Tappet Bros of well-drilling. I heard about them from two other women who used them, had them handle three wells for me, and i've 'shared' them with yet more women, LOL. They don't market, they don't sell, they don't advertise, they don't have a flashy logo, and you can't get them to schedule you in during hunting season for love nor money...but they just show up and get 'er done at a fair price when they say they will. Does a person need Zig Ziglar to figure that out? Some people see Suzy Ormond and Dave Ramsey as these gurus of money management, but 90% of their advice amounts to "Don't spend more money than you make." Not exactly revelatory...
Does a person need Zig Ziglar to figure that out?
Perhaps not for well drilling, but there are only a few moving parts in that case. Fortunately or unfortunately there are 10s of thousands of parts, products, and processes, that could go into a bath or kitchen or addition. With no people skills to guide a client through the process, JourneymanT faces a long learning curve.
I admit I don't know him, other than from this forum, but his background and posting style remind me of a lot of struggling carpenters and former construction business owners I have talked with. based on those observations I would say "Yes" he does need it.
Absolutely! I think what Katie was saying is not to assume all 45 y.o. women are going to be charmed by chrome
Agreed, but some 45 y.o. women may be charmed by chrome. JourneymanT won't know unless he asks questions. At 32 i don't think I had the "life knowledge" to know what could be important to other people. However I pretty much grew up under a rock with no people skills. (Hey, that's why I went into carpentry!!) When I didn't have the people skills or desire to get along with my boss and co-workers I went on my own!!!
Techniques are simply techniques. Just like a butcher knife is just a knife. That knife can carve the Thanksgiving turkey, or Christmas ham just as easily as it could cut someones throat. It depends on the person using it.
Here is another example: I had a call from a client I have done other work for. He has a building that he rents that got hit by a car. Not a big hit, but a good hole in the wall. I looked at it with him On a Thursday afternoon, when it was about 10 degrees outside. he needed an estimate for the insurance company.
So should I have just given him an estimate? Or should I have pointed out that his furnace was not keeping up with the cold coming in, (even though he tried to tarp the hole) and his bathroom pipes could freeze over the weekend, when it would get down to 35 below zero. (Fear of loss close) "Mike if I can re-arrange my schedule and be here for a very long day tommorow, and get the wall re-built and closed up for the weekend, will you deal with the insurance company and keep me out of it?"
"yes" OK, job "sold"
Was that evil? I don't think so. Did I get a premium for the emergency repair? Yes. Did I save people a bunch of hassle? I think so. When the insurance adjuster looked at it later the next week he had no problem with it. Did I actually have any other work to do on that Friday? No.
Bowz
Nice win-win negotiation....just like they all should end up! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Techniques are simply techniques. Just like a butcher knife is just a knife.
Agreed. I don't know where Jim got the idea that i think all sales techniques are bad. Some being advocated here are pretty unsophisticated, though, guaranteed to infuriate more than anything.
I think that the kind of if-i-will-you that Frenchy set up was a different kind of exchange and although i'm not clear myself why that is, his has the feel of one side giving something up if the other side gives something up, except he's confused about what i really want and what he thinks i want.
Yours has the feel of "if i add this into the pot, what will you throw into the pot"...an aggregating exchange of goods and services instead of an exchange that looks somewhat less unsatisfactory than nothing at all. I was thinking of characterizing your scenario as win-win and the other as win-lose, but that's not quite it either. I just think i'd be eventually yelling at Frenchy that IDONTWANTTHEGDCHROME!!!! and i'd be nervously guarding my house from the ever-changing array of questionable characters Jim would audition there.
From what you say in this thread (and haven't said, e.g. that i'm defensive and intimidated and don't know a sales technique if it bites me in the butt and pay retail too often <g>), i'd be fairly confident that all we'd have to do is agree on a plan and a price, with some money down for materials. I'd come home to an itemized invoice, the receipts for the parts under warranty, the job done and cleaned up, and an empty plate where i'd left brownies for you and hopefully you remembered to turn off the coffee pot. You like Sumatran?
Not every sale or job goes off without a hitch, but over and over one reads of homeowners on these boards saying they are happy to pay, but just wish a contractor would do what he said he would do. More than anything, JourneymanT needs to take that to heart; it seems to me that you have. If you didn't, i'll bet you'd be one of the guys in here griping they are short of work, that homeowners suck, that all they need to do is read the appropriate how-to-sell manual to turn it all around.
Hey, i just looked at your profile and read your personal quote. I think we're on the same page...or at least crawled out from under the same rock. <g> Many thanks for the civil exchange.
Edited 1/10/2008 9:40 pm by splintergroupie
I haven't read everything but I'll never forget back in about 1986 or 87 I heard a knock at the door and I opened it and there was a "unpolished" looking guy with his supervisor and they were selling vacuum cleaners door to door.I said "come on in" and I spent 30 minutes with the "unpolished" salesman and his "polished" supervisor. It was his first day on the job as a salesman and he wore a suit that didn't fit. He may have borrowed it.I bought the vacuum cleaner because I liked the guy and I felt good doing business with him. I felt like I had made a friend.He thanked me profusely. I felt like I had helped a guy I liked and I had gotten a vacuum cleaner that I ended up being happy and satisfied with.I would not have bought the vacuum from the supervisor.I guess I'm kind of a low key guy and I like buying from someone with a similar personality.Someone I can relate to.
I think maybe we can get back to sales techniques 101 now that we all agree that they are not evil, even if there is a name for each one. Incidently, the techniques are named as a way to discuss thing faster, instead of giving an explantion for each, every time it's mentioned. One of the first rules of sales is be yourself. Don't try to be something that your not and the kid obviously did that...he couldn't do anything else. There is another MOST important thing: you gotta believe in the product from the bottom of your heart. If you do, your heart speaks and most people "feel" your passion. A quick story. I briefly (one winter) sold Pella windows for a friend. I did this because it was easier on me when I coached my kids in high school. This old friend was one heck of a guy, honest and diligent as you could hope for. I knew I could count on him and his business. I knew people liked Pella and the two seemed like a good fit. I was doing fine till I stopped in and saw his full time crew doing their thing.....Yikes! My friend was so trusting and naive, he had turned over the supervision to a full time supervisor that was a good talker but never really had an substantial construction training. That was all she wrote....I couldn't sell him anymore. I lost my faith. I never had a hard time selling our carpentry services because I never tried to do more than I knew I could. For me, that's key. Selling 101 requires passion in the product/service even if someone else is providing it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have been trying my hand at sales these past 5 years and it's been eye opening and kind of up and down and hit and miss.I pick up a "vibe" when someone goes into "sales mode" with me. I think the hair stands up on the back of my neck. It's uncomfortable.Here's another example of what DOESN'T work when someone is trying to sell to me.Lets say I meet a mortgage broker. It's my understanding they're paid strictly on commissions.So we trade business cards and I get "follow-up call" from them on a weekday morning and they say "how was your christmas?" or "how do you like this cold weather" and we have small talk for a few minutes.I don't like these calls. They are a waste of time. But they make these calls in order to maintain contact.Here's an example of sales call I DO like. My phone rings and he says "it's Joe at the Credit Union do you have a minute, I say yes.Then he says "Did I tell you about our new website?" and I say "no"he says "we have an option for Realtors to get into a secured area with a log in and password and you can enter Buyer's info and then print out a Good Faith Estimate on your computer with all costs and hand it to your Buyer right there at your desk or whenever it's convenient at any hour of the day or night"I say "you're kidding"And he says no, here's the info. Try it out and let me know what you think.See how different that is. When someone provides me with some useful info I can't thank them enough.I try to use the same approach when I am calling to "sell" something.I will call the person and try to provide them with something useful or helpful and they seem to appreciate it.
Good Post Mrfixitusa,Jeffrey Gittomer tells us that you have to give something to get something. He says the best way to get an audience is to give something of value. The mortgage brokers website is an example of that. That gives us a clue as contractors. What type of service can we provide on our website to serve our clients? Sales people know that it takes a minimum of three contacts for someone to remember us. You gave two examples: one good, one bad. I suppose the rule of thumb should be to make a minimum of three GOOD contacts.One tip that might seem counterintuitive is that you should always hold something back. Don't give all the information up in the initial sales presentation. Keep at least one bit of valuable information. It gives you a little "power" and allows you to be a bit coy forcing the buyer to seek out and discover the information. Also set goals in every sales presentation. A very important goal is to set the next appointment/contact. Get it verified. This is powerful for both parties: they make a commitment to you, you make a commitment to them. A bond is forming.Another tip is to spend time. Buyers and sellers invest time in the process and the more time spent, the less they want to say no and lose all that valuable time they spent with you. One of the most important steps in remodeling sales is the thirty second commercial. Its probably easy if you specialize in high end kitchens and have a unique exclusive installer license from an internationally known cabinet supplier. And, how about the sales presentation that introduces your company before you begin to look at the particulars of the project? Getting a presentation book and having the right story will go a long way toward educating the client, which is really the goal of a salesperson. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
mrfixitusa
Excellant point! I made the same point on another comment about selling..
I get a lot of information with regard who's building, what size, when, etc.. Often before it's listed..
So when I go to contractors I share whatever information I got with them..
Seems like so-and so has an inside track on the new high school. Won't that leave you free to make a bid on the courthouse?
That way when I rolled into town I always got a few minutes with the boss. He knew that I was helping him and that the cost would be I got a shot at his next equipment purchase.. Often a no bid shot because they learned they could trust me..
I took a few hundred thousand dollar territory into a multi million dollar top producing territory in a few years with that technique. The customers were so mad when I was fired my replacement didn't sell a single major piece of equipment in 13 months. That territory has never amounted to much ever since..
Selling has to be a win- win situation for it to be effective long term.
As for the hair on the back of your neck standing up,, it shouldn't! All that means is you have a salesman who doesn't really know how to sell.. Timing is something that can be learned!
I suppose the pro's will have a name for that technique...."good-cop/bad-cop" maybe? LOL...
(Hey! Did you ever close the y/n/y/n/y/n/y/n deal on the moldy house? I missed 'the rest of the story' on that one...)
No, the deal fell through and it went under contract within a couple of days with someone else.I've been watching it closely. The other Buyer is scheduled to close on Monday, Jan 21st.So we'll see what happens - I'm guessing these people will walk away too but you never know!
Man. i'm really sorry to hear that. I know how hard you worked for it.
"I suppose the pro's will have a name for that technique...."good-cop/bad-cop" maybe? LOL..."Splinty, I don't understand why you would want to attempt to derail a thread intended to help a fellow participant along in a worthwhile business development thread. Your objection to your percieved "outdated" methods has been noted, but I don't understand your need to continue poking and attempting to irritate. I find it uncharacteristic of you. This is about learning things about sales and sales presenations. I believe you guys effectively drove everyone out and I don't blame them. I would have liked to hear more stories, good or bad about sales 101. Your stories were welcome and I think we managed to identify most of the 101 tips but do you think we can move on past the evil salesmen spiel? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Could you whine a little softer? I'm selling heah...
mrfixitusa,
Any smart salesman will make his personality accommodate yours.. There are lots of visual and verbal clues in the first 30 seconds to go by.
The tone of voice used,, the eye contact , position of the arms and hands, , personal space, established, all should clearly tell any decent salesman how to conduct himself in your presence..
The fact that so many don't is indicative of the poor state of training and experience and why 99 out of a hundred don't remain in the field for 5 years..
Granted I have many decades of experience doing this, but when the over exuberant salesperson approaches me. I make clear eye contact as my initial warning, I take a step back as my second warning and then I either ask for their salesmanager if I want the product but hate the salesperson or turn and walk away.
BY the way the technique used on you was called good cop, bad cop.. and is deliberately used at times. I personally find it offensive but it is extremely effective.. Most usual application is car dealerships.
There are about a dozen variations of the same theme. all equally offensive. Frequently used in conjunction with, if I can....., will you.......?
when I started five years ago I was told I needed to hand out a least 2-3 business cards to complete strangers every day.I tried this for a while and never got one return call.I'm trying something different now and here's an example.On December 24th I went to a Christmas party. There were 50 people there.I went to the party and took some business cards.Anyway, the party was at someone's home and I sat at the dining room table with 4-5 guys.We talked about sports, our kids, and current events.Then we started talking about what we do for a living and we started talking about real estate. We ended up talking for about two hours about selling houses, working on houses, etc. It's an interesting subject.When I left the party I had made friends with people who I enjoy sitting down and talking to. We all had enjoyed talking to each other.It's kind of like coming in here to Breaktime to talk to other people and learn something.This is the modern way to Sell (as opposed to working the room and handing out a business card or pen or some kind of advertising to everyone in the room).Whenever you can, you meet someone and talk to them and "make a connection". Be a good listener when they talk to you about their life or their problems.Sales is about forming relationships. It's also about doing things to help other people. Such as giving them some advice or answering a question they are struggling with.People remember you when you show them you care about them or their family or their kids etc.Many people here have a lot to offer and probably have excellent potential in sales.
mrfixitusa
Another great point.. some people (lousy salesmen) believe in the numbers game.. meet a 100 people and give them your card if you are lucky you get say a 2% involvement rate. take that 2% and attempt to sell themsomething,, that gives you your close rate now multiply that close rate times the number of intial contacts and you know how many people you need to contact..
I know I have a greater than 50% close rate.. (depends on the product) But I don't think a hand shake or brief comments should be considered contact. Ask, I'll gladly tell you what I do but I also am willing to chat about sports weather or whatever you are. I'll make open ended question to draw you out.,
example. closed question,
do you like baseball? Can be answered yes or no and does not establish any repore.
Open ended question,
so what are you interested in? Whatever it is they will want to "sell" it to you, if you let them you've established a relationship.
mr. fixit.... sorry to be comming to this thread so late
<<<
Sales is about forming relationships. It's also about doing things to help other people. Such as giving them some advice or answering a question they are struggling with.>>>>
i would disagree....... sales to YOU is about relationships... i know this is true because it's the way i buy and sell.. but it's certainly not true for everyone
it seems to me that kathleen did NOT want a relationship.. and would probably be put off by that type of salesman
my point is that different people respond to different stimuli...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Better late than never.All your insights are wanted and appreciated. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Mike I think Kathleen is wanting someone to show her the product, answer her questions, give her a price, and then leave her alone. She is not wanting to be pressured. She does not want someone using sales techniques such as asking for the sale, being told no, and then trying to overcome objections.I guess you just have to recognize things from her perspective.But what difficult, is, meeting with Kathleen, answering her questions, giving her a price, saying thank you, saying good bye, and then being able to pick up the phone and call her in a week or so.One way to do this, is you try to see yourself as someone who is "helping" another person.As a salesman you are helping a friend "achieve his or her goals". You see yourself as building relationships.It's hard enough to pick up the phone to make the dreaded "follow-up call".But if you convince yourself you are helping her, it does seem to motivate you and make it easier to do the dreaded follow-up contact.
life is short... i've met kathleen...
(or her alter ego..)
her distrust or her personality is getting in the way... she thinks she knows everything about her project and all she needs is some idiot to just give her the damn price.. and skip the sales presentation...
trouble is she don't know jack...
part of what i do is find out what my customer wants and needs, and how much they can afford to spend...
she's holding all the cards too close to her vest... she's not going to give me the info i need to process her request
and ... she's NOT looking for a relationship..... i develop a relationship with all my customers.. so.. she might as well cross me off her list and save us both a lot of time
or maybe it's just meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
you make a very good point about customers..
Some are really great, know what they want and how to get it at the best price under the best terms..
Some don't yet feel they have to battle anyone who tries to help them..
Kathleen is probably correct to a degree.. some sales people simply don't know how to sell and use a lot of tricks and technique poorly. However I've met enough who really care about their customers to know that that's not always going to be the case.
Any time we say all or make some other such bigotted statement the exceptions will over whelm us.
Periodically in my sales career I've helped people who think they have the answers and just want me to be the clerk.. what is called a lay down.. On occasion they are correct and you simply take their money and give them what they want. The other times a great salesman will risk losing the deal to help the customer get what they really need, not what they think they want..
Lot's of chance for mistake in doing that.. the customer may stubborn out on you and lose out on your knowledge and experiance.. Or think you're trying to sell him something just to make more money.
my favorite example is 8000# forklifts.. They are virtually identical to 6000 pound forklifts except they are slightly less stable (ask me why) but they cost nearly $5000 more. Masons insist on 8000# forklifts because decades ago that's what they needed.. So everyone tries to sell 8000# telehandlers without really knowing why..
If I can convince you to accept a 6000# telehandler you spend less money, have something easier to move around, less likely to get stuck, and something more stable..
But you have to listen and learn..
"she's holding all the cards too close to her vest... she's not going to give me the info i need to process her request"Often, that describes me too. The worst thing is that I'm conscious of it and I know I'm strectching out the learning curve. I'm a horrible guy to sell to....or like Dr Jekyl...I'm the easiest. Here's a good story about a really bad salesperson. I was accompanying momma shopping. While she hung out in the ladies dept, I found kiosk with some dell monitors and laptops. I'm interested. The monitor is huge and the football game is playing on it. After drooling for a minute, the salesguy, who was standing three feet from me with his back to me, finally turns and addresses me. I ask him two questions. He answers with short answers. I shut up, waiting to see what he's going to say next. .. ...... .......Nothing. He turns back to the business of trying to ask his coworker out.There I was, an interested guy in a very expensive monitor and he, or her, wouldn't/couldn't bother to spend any time with me. I wandered off. There certainly was no high pressure tactics there. I feel sorry for that owner whos paying a couple K per month for that kiosk site. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
back to the business of trying to ask his coworker out
Credit where it's due. He might have closed a better deal than with you. :)
Probably a good sales lesson in there somewhere.
Thanks for the compliments, but your exchanges here should be part of JourneymanT's education.
JourneymanT is going to be doing kitchens and baths. In my kitchen and bath work I would guess about 98% of every dollar spent is by a female (married, unmarried, or divorced). And 90% of that 98% is spent by someone over 45 yrs old. If he doesn't learn to tailor his approach to that demographic, he is in very serious trouble.
One of the best ways to learn what NOT to do is to ask the clients you are working for, why they did not hire the other bidders. One of my first times I asked was a single mother about 45 yrs old. I knew both other contractors who had looked at the project, and one had done the upstairs bathroom. (this was a basement renovation)
The guy who had done the bath eliminated himself by not giving her straight enough answers. When I asked for an example she said, "Well I wanted to know about cutting in a window through the foundation for a little more light. He just kept saying,'pick any size, I can make it work'. I didn't get any sort of guidance whenever I asked a question. You suggested a size and gave reasons why you felt it would work"
The second guy did not return her calls, even though he had spent over 30 hours with her and had taken her over to some of his other projects. half way through me doing the basement he finally returned her call, telling her he could start soon. She returned his call saying it was too late. He said,"You probably couldn't afford me anyway, my bid would have been about $40,000." To which she happily responded, "that's OK, we are coming in around $45,000 with "Bowz" " LOL!
Thanks For the coffee, now I'm really wired!!!
Bowz
I hope Journeyman's listening in still...lots of good info in almost all these posts. One can learn from bad examples as well as good. <G>
I'm really astonished at the percentage of your contracts with females! Is that word-of-mouth referral mostly or do you advertise to that demographic on purpose or ______? What do you do when YOU don't get the job? Any follow-up, or just chalk it up?
Your window example reminded me of my first plans for this property, about ten years ago, to build a SIPS house. A contractor to whom i'd sold quite a lot of woodwork referred me to his buddy. I inspected a SIPS house his crew were working on and saw they did above average work - not heart-warming, but i only needed the shell put up. I'd read a bit about SIPS, but i wasn't sure who he used for a panel manufacturer or what sizes were standard for them. I already had a floorplan and elevations drawn, but i wanted to know if they were the most cost-effective use of materials. All he would say is, "You draw it and we'll build it." He wasn't interested in answering questions about 4x8 panels set by manpower compared to larger panels set by crane and the cost comparisons...just "you draw it and..."
So after a few conversations, i disengaged. I think he was just as happy, too. I then wondered if i'd screwed myself with the first contractor, but i guess he understood the problem bec when his daughter got married later on, they bought a half-dozen jewelry boxes from me for bridesmaid presents. Whew...
I'm really astonished at the percentage of your contracts with females! Is that word-of-mouth referral mostly or do you advertise to that demographic on purpose or ______?
Hmmmm..... No I don't advertise. It is mostly word of mouth but a lot of that comes from a family plumbing business that has now been around for 4 generations. What is odd is that the father who runs the business is someone who you and most women clients generally would not get along with for more than 10 minutes. Sometimes I think I spend a third of my customer contact time smoothing feathers he has ruffled. (no he is not open to changing his ways at age 63) But in broad general terms, this family business has always dealt with the man of the house, and often the man is no longer around. (dead or divorced or the woman is the daughter, now on her own)
I can recall a couple of clients telling me you will be back to do XXXX on the house if you can find a different plumber. (even though this guy got me the original lead)
The other source was the cabinet shop I no longer do work for, and it recently folded. I have not found a good way to replace those leads, and i have hesitated to advertise, because i don't want to have everyone call, I want to target that market, but haven't figured it out yet. Any ideas?
part of the reason is that the inside of the home is the queen's domain, and even if the husband is involved it is only as the bill payer, and to be sure his wife is not abused by some shyster salesman. LOL! So from initial contact I try to treat the Queen's domain with a reverence reserved for a church, temple, synagogue etc.
Yes, some of those female contacts do pass my name on to others. However some clients could be classified as "recluse" (sp?). They don't seem to have a lot of friends, and don't seem to have much of a social life. I go back and do work for them, but they don't pass my name on. I've been told by one client they won't pass my name on because I would get too busy and not take care of them. ( it was sort-of tongue in cheek, but it had the bite of reality.)
My observation is most men don't really care about the house, as long as it doesn't interupt their golf, hunting, sports, etc. But I don't know if that is true across all aspects of the business. Working for a single man (Widower, divorced, never married) is about as rare as hen's teeth.
What do you do when YOU don't get the job? Any follow-up, or just chalk it up?
The most brutal and honest answer I can give is that I don't follow up, because I don't have the stones to face my failures. When I have heard through the grapevine, it is usually that they simply didn't do the project, but that doesn't get me the reason why. Your question would be the #1 way to improve, and I don't yet have the stomach to ask it. Another contractor had pointed out the same question and said he averaged about 1 out of 3 people going with him just for asking that question, even though they had already told him "No".
Bowz
My business was different from yours in that i had art fairs not only as a source of income, but they were also my very public advertising for furniture. I often took a music stand or something similar to show i could make more than widgets. Lots of gallery owners come to the shows, too, so i'd pick up wholesale accounts almost painlessly. I have a friend with a bathtub and appliance refinishing business who placed one of his refinished clawfoots in a lumberyard-turned-'home center'. (The only surviving one in Missoula since HD and Lowes showed up. They saw the writing on the wall and instead of being ostriches, they morphed.) It's a nice display, all fitted out with faucets and soap dishes...makes a person just crave a clawfoot. The store gets a %-age of the business they funnel to him.The commonality is that he and i got our products - not just a business card - in front of people. The Missoula Airport has classy kiosks one can lease. The Missoula Artist Co-op has one with members' work displayed. The K&B places have some of the LARGE ones on the first floor. Abbot Norris (well-known woodworker) had one. I was out there in December and one of the most attractive display cases i've ever seen anywhere was show-casing a new condo development downtown. Everyone was drawn to both the case and the tasteful display.
On the other hand, i have a friend whose woodworking skills far surpass mine, but he is reluctant to put himself out there. I met him doing shows, but he was very retiring. He hired a graphic artist, made up really classy portfolios at substantial cost, got them into designers' hands...and nothing came of it.
So i'd think about showcasing your work, actual work if possible, right in front of would-be purchasers. One time when funds were tight i threw the stock in my truck and hit the road to talk to log home dealers. I spent a day trying to convince them to use one of my lazy susans as a house-warming gift for every log home sold. Well, that failed...but one log home manufacturer decided to use my stock for all their corporate gift-giving....a VERY nice return on time invested. That was just to encourage you, that even when something doesn't seem to pay off quickly, you never know. I'd also do quirky things like box lazy susans in a pizza box. I could buy them for a buck a piece - cheap - they fit my work perfectly, and folks thought it was a hilarious 'gift' box. I never underestimate the power of humor! I woke up from surgery one time and there was an African violet from my surgeon looking back at me. I was touched. I learned later that the malpractice rate for docs is lower for those who do this. OK, i've now got a reworked and somewhat jaudiced view, but still...people are truly touched in ways that aren't that costly or difficult. I gave the woman i worked for this past summer/fall a gift of flower bulbs to put in the flower beds she's been working on. They were inexpensive in cost, but huge in thought since i'd noticed her efforts...no pen and pencil set with a corporate logo on them is going to do that. Afterward she confirmed she'd like me to replace a balcony deck and add rail to match the one i put around her porch. I'd probably have gotten the work anyway, but the timing was notable.Gotta run and get seizure meds for a dog...if i think of anything else, i'll add onto this.
Edited 1/11/2008 4:01 pm by splintergroupie
Thanks for the response. I was out of town over the weekend and not at a computer. Yes, our businesses are different in that you have a product that a customer can see, where as a remodeler has themselves, and a commitment to sell. That is one of the reasons I liked "Selling the Invisible".
Gotta run and get seizure meds for a dog
This statement is interesting. Something our family has been discussing is getting a dog. Over the weekend DW and I were discussing this thread, and I told her how I look for common patterns in my customers. One of the common patterns for the single female is they almost all own dogs.
DW in turn pointed out how many new customers I could pick up in puppy class, (tongue in cheek, as she tries to sell me on the idea)
What kind of dog? I think we are down to a Dachshund or a Vizsla, if we get one at all. Tried a Miniature Pincher from a rescue home over Christmas that didn't work out.
Bowz
Why not a Heinz mutt? You're less likely to see genetic problems that way. Whatever you do, pleasepleaseplease don't trust a pet store bec they often source their animals from puppy mills; AKC breeding is no guarantee of health whatsoever, and every single animal i know purchased at a pet store has had major $$$ health issues. The meds i referenced were sent to a friend who purchased two Golden Retriever puppies at a pet store, who grew to have major joint issues, compulsive licking behaviors, and the epilepsy that Goldens are especially prone to having. A puppy mill near me that we closed down used to sell to Petland. Dachshunds as a breed can be pretty snappy and easily made very fat - at least the ones i've seen in the spay/neuter clinic. However, their humans are always completely devoted, so the dachshunds seem adept at training. <G> I had a year-old Vizcla mix dog i fostered until adoption that was a wonderfully playful and gentle dog, but didn't take well to the first family that tried her who had an 18 mo. child who pestered the dog. Very smart and very energetic, so be prepared to have to exercise one a LOT. Here's a Vizcla rescue site: http://clubs.akc.org/vizsla/rescue.htm Here's another excellent resource for finding a suitable furchild: http://www.petfinder.com/
Not to worry, no puppy mills for us.
Zillions of reasons that we were down to those two breeds. DW had been looking for a small dog, with short hair. I had a friend with a Vizsla in high school and it was not real big, and super friendly. So we looked this weekend at 3 puppies and an adult male. He was much bigger than I recall my friends dog being, and the breeder said he was pretty standard. Females would be smaller, but probably not small enough.
DW and the kids have been all over the pet and AKC sites for a couple of months now.
Back to our regularly scheduled topic..........
Bowz
I'm another that is not willing to listen to a sell. When someone gives me the "If I.." or "What will it take.." they immediately lose me. When that comes out of your mouth, I'm going somewhere else. This is especially true when I have approached the salesman, which I always do when I am ready. How do you sell to someone like me? You don't. You listen to what I tell you that I want and you answer my questions directly. If you want to recommend an alternative, be brief with a description and wait for me to prompt you to continue.The biggest rule is never, ever call me out of the blue or accost me in public. And don't hand me a flyer or something that I'm going to need to throw away immediately.I think that I am not alone in feeling like this. I think that many people feel the same way.
"How do you sell to someone like me? You don't. You listen to what I tell you that I want and you answer my questions directly. If you want to recommend an alternative, be brief with a description and wait for me to prompt you to continue."You've presented a situation where you already have a firm idea of what you want and want specific information. A good salesperson already knows that he doesn't have to use any sales efforts to get information from you. You are leading. How many people, as a percentage, do you think lead the discovery process in most sales presentations? I'd guess about 10%. If a sales person didn't know how to get the other 90% to relax and talk about their needs, a lot more people would be buying things that they don't want, don't need and maybe couldn't afford! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
ptp,
I hate formulaic selling as much as the next person. However there are rules in negotiation. Just like you don't spit on the salesman's shirt you don't dictate to him ways to help you.
If I can is a way to help a customer determine their priorities.
You can have good or fast or cheap but not all three. Now which is important to you? Is the same question rephrased..
When I'm working with intelligent customers who either know what they want or know how to ask the right questions to find out what they want it's a real pleasure getting them that information.. I can be equally direct and forthright.
However many people simply don't know.. How much is a room addition... simple question but requires massive imput to give a good answer..
But how much more to do the trim in Oak over paint grade is a simple question a salesman should know off the top of his head.. X amount times Number of feet... or say $30 per window roughly (or whatever)
If we've gone past the how much and when etc. and are ready to close the deal be prepared to trade.. Chances are he's given you a number he can live with.. circumstances might make that number flexible..
For example if he has an opening in his schedule that your project fits perfectly he might be willing to adjust the price to stay busy during that period.. Not enough that he will work for free but enough so that some concessions might be made..
IF I can schedule you during the summer vacation period I might adjust my price by something. Would you be interested?
(if I can, would you)
What if the number he mentions is above your budget?
If I can lower the cost by using paint grade trim instead of the oak you asked for would you still want to do the project?
What if he doesn't want to front you the start up costs would you be willing to make a down payment? (which you can counter with if I provide you a down payment can you decrease the price by the differance in interest costs?)
Negotiation isn't a one way street. You can and should get whatever you want however the cavot is always that you are willing to pay for it. A Salesman may simply be tactfully telling you that your budget is not enough..
That in the end is the hardest part.
A customer comes in or calls a salesman with a too small a budget.. A pro will see that and shoot you in the foot.. (Sales jargon)
you will take that number and go and get the required education but have a reason to come back to your first choice.. Now with the required education you are in a better position to make a fair deal and get what you wanted
Any other approach means you wind up with something other than your first choice..
Few people are willing to admit they are wrong about things. So even if you like a Ford Pickup (or whatever) you wind up with a Chevy or Dodge rather than go back to the Ford guy and admit that his price wasn't too high..
did you mean it to sound this harsh ....
<<<<
How do you sell to someone like me? You don't. You listen to what I tell you that I want and you answer my questions directly. If you want to recommend an alternative, be brief with a description and wait for me to prompt you to continue.>>>>>
are we really talking about cars here, or remodeling ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I did mean it to sound harsh. My experience dealing with sales folks is that they don't really care what I want. They just push and push and push, trying to direct me to something other than what I'm interested in buying. Whether it's a car lot or appliance store, I always seem to attract the salesman with the bulldozer mentality.I think that it's this relentless approach that really irritates me. Every damn day I get phone calls from big remodeling contractors in the area offering to sell me siding or windows or what have you. I've tried explaining to the callers that I don't need their services because I am a remodeling contractor. I'd really like it if you didn't call me anymore. Please take my name off of your lists. They don't listen. The next day they're on the phone again. I've seen this approach in remodeling sales as well. Salesman/PMs that I used to work for would ask the customer what they wanted and then completely disregard their opinions and tell me to do the exact opposite. I've watched them walk through a meeting with a customer without taking one note. Then, after taking phone calls and meeting with other clients and employees, they can't remember what that original client wanted. Oh, well. Just decide what they want. If they disagree, you'll convince them.A friend once told me that when you go to buy something there are two rules to remember. Rule number one: everything that the salesman tells you is a lie. Rule number two: refer to rule number one.There's a reason that people feel this way. We've all seen the salesman that talks ad nauseum and the customer can't get a word in edgewise. The most important rule in sales that most salesmen disregard is to LISTEN. Customers will tell you what they want. If what they want is not feasible, explain that to them in a direct way, suggest alternatives and then... listen. Take notes if you need to.Rule number two for sales is to give the customer some room. This is why cold calling is bad. You're interrupting whatever your target was doing and badgering him because you're looking for immediate results. People need space to make big decisions and they need to feel that the salesman is an ally, not an adversary. If you smother them, you're clearly placing yourself in the latter category.I've seen a lot of poor salesmanship and, while frustrating, it has served to show me how not to deal with people. I've also learned how to deal with stereotypical salesmen. I get harsh when I need to.
ptp.... you're too cynical
your judgement seems to cast all into the same crucible
me, i buy and sell on relationships... but every once in a while i respond positively to cold calls
as far as all salesmen being liers..... nah... all salesmen are people, and people come in all kinds
we do design /build....mostly referrals... but always with a mix of people reaching out to us because of job signs, trucks signs, weekly paper ads, yellow pages....
on the referrals we close about 85%...... on the cold calls... say 60%Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, I am a bit cynical. You come to expect what you're accustomed to seeing. That way, disappointment is minimized. Even though I'm expecting to hear the same old same old, I hold onto that sliver of hope that I'll be pleasantly surprised.I do respond well to people that don't confine themselves to that crucible, though. I make it a point to thank salesmen I deal with for not using the cliches and tactics that would have lost my business. Those are the folks that I'll come back to, with whom I'm willing to build a relationship.
Kathleen, you sound very threatened by the sales process. That's understandable. A lot of people are. It is intimidating to many and many people have an automatic reflex that kicks in. I am one of those people. I can be looking at exactly what I want to buy, know everything I need to make a decision, have the money and ability to pay for it, need it, and I hesitate to make the decision. Why? Because I hate trading my money for things. Understand, that I'm not talking big money here....the dollar value is meaningless. A good salesperson has to overcome this. It's not easy. For you, this might all seem like nonsense. It's not. Sales techniques understand this and a technique that satisfies my needs may not satisfy your needs. You mentioned engineers. Engineers are data people. A sales person would simply need to put the data on the table. That date would of course have to include the price. That's how engineers think. That's how engineers buy. If you did that with a woman, buying a bathroom, who was an artist, you probably have much success. Why? Because we all process information differently. Your objection to mini closes is mis-founded because you think the question is asked to "lead you into a sale". You label the question as something negative because your own resistance to purchasing overrides your ability to see the job of a salesperson as anything more than an attempt to steal your money.The job of the salesperson is to ask you enough questions, and use YOUR answers to show you the product and services that will satisfy your needs. A mini close does two things. It asks questions of you and helps you to identfy your priorities. The mini close: are you interested in saving energy could very well be answered NO. That steers the sales presentation away from the most efficient energy saving storm doors. That might help that particular buyer save some considerable money. Frenchy sold lifts. I have bought a lift. I thought I wanted a 10054 model. That was the biggest, badest model and I reasoned that I could afford it and since I was already going to spend 90k, I might as well spend 10k more. Fortunatly, the sales guy that sold me the unit asked me lots of questions. Each question led me to a decision. I eventually bought one a little smaller and lighter which was important because it moved through the mud better. That salesperson could have sold me the more expensive model and put more money in his pocket in the form of commission. He didn't. He saved me money by asking me questions. There were lots of mini closes in those questions. There is nothing sinister about them. To you, they are sleazy but in reality they are not. An honest salesperson does not do sleazy business and a sleazy salesperson can steal your money without using any of the sales techniques mentioned here. "If I can", is another form of asking a question in a non threatening way. It helps the buyer answer the question in the theoretical form, without feeling the pressure to actually buy. I am one who benefits from this type of posturing because I am very keen on the use of syntax and I will more likely answer that question honestly rather than a direct request for the order. I get to answer the basic question without committing to a purchase. Thats exactly what works for me. For me, it's better because the direct request will feel like a pressure play to me.Remember, we are talking about a wide range of sales tips. Frechy has already pointed out that a good salesperson learns when and where to use each of them by reading the verbal and visual signals. In your case, none of the techniques mentioned should be used. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You mentioned engineers. Engineers are data people. A sales person would simply need to put the data on the table. That date would of course have to include the price. That's how engineers think. That's how engineers buy.
If you did that with a woman, buying a bathroom, who was an artist, you probably have much success. Why? Because we all process information differently.
Bingo, Jim. And since being female is my most obvious characteristic, guess what tactic salespeople use?? No kidding, I've gone in to buy a car, asked what made one car better than the competition's (this was back before the internet), and been told that their's currently came with a "free" chrome package upgrade. When I told the guy I didn't care about the chrome, and that, in fact, I considered it a detraction because of the additional upkeep required, he was completely confused--unable to regroup his presentation.
Your objection to mini closes is mis-founded because you think the question is asked to "lead you into a sale".
But most salespeople that I have run into do use this type of technique merely to get a sale. They do not know their product, and they believe that one-size-fits-all in approach.
So my real problem is with poor salespeople--people who only know a technique compared with people who know their product and understand people. I think really good salespeople are as rare as really good employees, contractors, customers, etc., as indicated on several recent threads. I think that what you are perceiving as feeling threatened by the sales process is more being irritated/frustrated at having to deal with people who think that selling is merely following a script--kind of like the door-to-door evangelists for various religious groups.
The problem is, perhaps, compounded by the internet. Before the internet, I knew that I was frequently frustrated by the quality of products and people, but I tended to think that I was being too picky. With the internet and discussion groups like this, I know there are talented people out there, I just don't run into them as often as I think I should based on the percentages I see on-line.
Just out of curiousity, do any of the how-to-sell books address the engineer vs. artist issue? Also, how do people in the construction industry tend to see themselves--artists or engineers? I've always assumed that construction-types would be more toward the engineering side, but several people locally are leading me to think otherwise.
Kathleen
Katiewa,
Sure, that type even has a sales jagon name,,
they are called pipesmokers..
The approach towards a "pipesmoker" is in a lot of ways easier to sell than normal..
Here you have to know your product completely.. not just the sales literature but the tecnobable so beloved by engineers.. Where you might want a can opener to opens a complete variety of cans an engineer wants a can opening that uses 14% less surge currant on intital start up.. or some other such technobable.
You may check with consumer reports to see which can opener has the best reliability while the engineer type is facinated by a stainless steel cutting anvil..
Good salesmen don't just put one arrow in their quiver.. it's loaded with every arrow they know about and they constantly seek differant arrows..
Selling telehandlers I spent 100 times as much time learning how various contractors approached their job as I did reading sales literature.. Aw who am I kidding probably a thousand times..
I wanted to see and know everyone that was differant..
That way when I walked up to them I could relate however they approached their job..
Yes I earned a good living but I was also far more involved than others..
I've never heard the term pipesmoker. I do undertand the analogy though. You feel like selling in Austin? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Blue,
My home is here, my whole family is here, my network is here.. by the time I relocate the cost would be way too high! Plus, It would take a long time to recover fincially. Finallly I know my client base here.. down south I'd just be another Yankee carpet bagger.. MY Texas drawl ain't worth squat! ;-)
There's so many out of state people here, I could schedule you with yankee people only! Quit making excuses. Your family don't care if you move do they? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
First, lets just dismiss the female victim scenario. Yes, you were perceived as a female, rather than an engineering type, but that's okay. That's the starting point, not the finishing point. I've walked in with work clothes and viewed as poor. They were right. In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that you thought someone should put the info on the desk with the price and you would make a decision. Then, here in this post, you mention that you object to the sales person mentioning that they currently include a chrome package. Do you see a problem here? I do and it's not about sexism. It's about communication. The sales person has not asked enough questions of you to fully understand what you want. You do not want to be asked question because you said earlier that you just want the information. I know I'm oversimplifying the situations but the point is that in a complicated sales process, both parties need to agree that they will offer information so the right choices can be made. Choices include options and price. It's not as simple as reading a label on a can of beans....even that is complicated: how many ozs? Organic? Low fat? etc.You sound a lot like me: resistant to the sale process and skeptical of the intentions of the salesperson. I am very unpredictable but consistent in that the sales person and I often are lead around in a wild goose chase. Why? Because I'll do what Frenchy hates: lie! Don't ask me why...I'm not a shrink. I don't know. Sometimes I'm on an engineering mission. Sometimes I'm touchy feely. Sometimes I know what I want and get out of the way. Sometimes, I'm not going to buy no matter what they say. Sometimes they could give it too me and I'd refuse and think there is a catch. You are right, you run into far more bad sales reps than good one. Statistics will tell us that less than 2% will succeed and achieve high levels of success. You're going to have to suffer through the other 98% and hope they come here and read this thread where we all are trying to learn a little more about selling 101. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
About a year and a half ago I bought a nice sign for my car. It says my name, phone number, and that I'm a Realtor.
To date, I've received no phone calls from my car sign.
I listened to some tapes a while back and he encouraged people in sales to establish rapport with customers by talking about your experiences over the years in your field of expertise.
Talk about real life experiences with your customers (as opposed to hitting them over the head with product knowledge, benefits of using your product or service, sales techniques, yes questions, questions designed to steer them in your direction.
A good salesman is kind of like an interesting story teller people like to listen to.
As part of sales you might want to talk about your experiences in your field when you first started and how things have changed. Look at how products and materials have changed. Look at the changes in tools and equipment.
People enjoy talking to someone in this type of setting, as opposed to a high pressure, high tension, move into closing the deal etc.
After a few stories a good sales man could even say in a non threatening manner "do you know enough about this that you feel like you're ready to make a deecision or do you need more time"
You even have to sit down and think about what you'll talk about with clients and polish up some of your stories, get things organized, etc.
Good luck!
Thanks for the tips. I just caught up on most of the posts in this thread yesterday. It’s too bad I wasn’t able to read them sooner; perhaps I could’ve toned this thread down a little. I found it very interesting how frenchy brought up a sales technique and then Jim demonstrated how it could be used in a non-manipulative way. I think frenchy made it clear that that’s what he considers good sales technique.
I think that’s the key to being a good salesman; using sales techniques to HELP the customer get what he wants. It’s only when customers deal with salesmen that use sales techniques to MANIPULATE them into buying what they don’t want that customers become so frustrated and angry.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
While it is true (as was mentioned) that I’m considering a kitchen and bath renovation business, I plan on starting out small. I’d like to begin with installing cabinets. While a full blown kitchen and bath business provides the customer with many more options, there are still options in both the kind of kitchen cabinets, as well as the kind of kitchen cabinet installation. It would be interesting to see real life experiences of how each major sales technique has been used in a non-manipulative way to help a customer get what they want. I don’t know if I should start a new thread for that or not.<!----><!---->-T
I don't know that you need another thread to continue down the 101 road.Sales techniques are universal. They apply to every business from a kid's coolaid stand to IBM. The core techniques are asking and listening as already mentioned. Then, some techniques are geared to softly make suggestions in a non threatening way. Other techniques are used to demonstrate value and make the buyers aware of your value. In your case, you will be selling a personal service. It will be up to you to make those benefits known and show how and why they should use your services. If you fail, they fail to reap the rewards that you know you can offer. A different company might send in a salesperson with a different message. The cabinets might be the same but the message about the support services might be different. A larger firm might highlight the value of having five different installers and the fast service that they can provide because of their manpower. They can offer a workmanship warranty that might look more attractive because they have a longer track record. The sales agent needs to draw out the prospects fears about each and then inform them in a way that alleviates their fears. In 101 lingo that would be called overcoming "objections". It is a very important technique and a good salesperson sees opportunity rather than dissappointment with every objection. Objection are about products too, not just companies and their policies or prices. I'm a germahobe and have had a discussion in a shower thread recently that would change my discussion if I'm involved in hiring a shower installer. As a buyer, I'm going to choose a fiberglass pan over a high quality tile installation now. A discussion with a competent saleperson would draw that fear out and they would overcome my objection to tile by selling me on a sloped bed covered with a Kerdi product and a weekly regime of chemical treatment. The "what if" might sound like this: "What if I could show you a system of installation, that would eliminate all the problems of hidden bugs in the mudbases, and allow you to have the more appealing look of a high quality tile istallation....would that be something you'd be interested in?" Me: "Yes!"That's not the openended question that Frenchy talks about but is a direct question that probably would be asked once the saleagent discovered the objection because of the germ phobia. A well educated sales person gives great service to their clients by being able to answer objections. The buyers benefit from the wealth of knowledge that the sales person brings with the presentation. In the end, the buyer gets to make informed decision based on many facets of the process...not just price! Your kitchen presentations will cover a lot of ground. Your choice of tactics on how your present it will vary according to the client and their needs but there probably should be some basic approach. Maybe if you laid out your game plan, we can pick it apart a little and offer you some 102 tips.Also, don't worry about not getting back soon enough to derail the hijack. It wasn't actually a hijack and I think most of the conversation was complimentary to a sales 101 discussion. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Good thoughts regarding the differant approach various companies should take, However one critical point should be made..
When you are talking with the customer you need to clearly focus your benefits statements to what the customer may be interested in..
Do not attempt to sell dovetailed corners to someone who is only interested in sizes or drawer dividers.. it's a waste of time and causes the customer to lose interest..
You want to get them excited and motivated not bored.
The way you learn to do that is thru paying carefull attention to initial opening statements.. Are they seeking design sort of input or is it more features sorts of benefits..
Watch the eyes and read the body language again to tell if they are interested or bored..
Exactly Frenchy.Thats why I mentioned that Journeymant might talk about his planned presentation. I wanted to disect a kitchem presentation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Speaking of sales 101: I've been dying to leak this....
I know I'm not a natural sales talent as Frenchy has alluded to so often.
So....I recently ran an ad seeking a part time sale person explaining that we were a transplanted construction company and new to the area. I was seeking a residential sales rep to work in the remodeling side of our business. My goal is to pick up smaller jobs to fill in between the larger jobs that we have lined up. I'd like to keep a core group of four carpenters busy. I immediately got one or two weak replies from my ad.
About ten days later, I got the most amazing reply. On paper, the contact looked spectacular. I immediately called and set up an appointment for a face to face.
We had the appointment and two hours later determined that we were perfect for one another in every regard!
What made her perfect? The entire package. She's personable. She's excited. She's enthusiastic. She's qualified, educated and has VPd a similar business. She loves working over the kitchen table with MOM and Dad and helping to design their dream addition. She's technically up on construction terms (she read multiple contracting books when she decided to enter the field). She understands cashflow. She understands legal issues (six years as a paralegal). She understands scheduling of subs.
And she's sold over a million dollars worth of construction services in small contracts last year!
In our face to face, she exhibited many sales techniques without trying or looking cheesy. Of course, I was using everyone that I could think of to sell our company to her. The thing that I was trying hardest to impress upon her is that if she sells a quality product, we will not let her down. WE WILL DELIVER! Fundamentally, she will believe that until we give her reason to decide otherwise. We've already met on our current jobsite to prove to her that we are for real and will get things done. She's now onboard and ready to go!
She needs a couple of weeks to turn her current operation over to her successors. We will be making a press release upon her say so and signing of the sales contract.
Timing is everything: she was in town visiting her sister and looking for a job to move back to Texas to. She had to filter through hundreds of sales job offers and go back several pages on the internet to find mine. Mine struck a chord....I'm sure the 10% sales commission has lot to do with it. There are other elements though too in the ad that would appeal to someone exactly like her.
Heres the ad:
"I'm relocating a General Contracting business to the Austin area. I need help, and lots of it!
If you have sales skills, you can make a lot of money selling remodeling projects. I'm not talking about slow money either.
Look at the numbers: If you sell a $200k addition and take a 10% sales fee, you've pocketed 20k minimum!
I can sell these things myself but I don't want to wear all the hats anymore....like most contractors do. I want my business to grow and it won't grow unless there's some hungry salesperson out there hawking all the possible services we offer.
Look around your house and the neighborhood and everything you see is your market.
This doesn't have to be your full time job. You normally schedule appointments after the working people get home at night. I recently sold a small job. I spent 15 minutes in the house. It's not a big job, but it will be a great referral and the next call from that referral might be a 100k job.
Remodeling is where it's at. Everyone needs a roof and they always wear out. When that rain starts dripping on the coffee table...they'll buy a new roof! If you can sell, this should be easy. We do shell packages that are great money makers for everyone!
Only ethical, honest professionals need bother to reply. I do good work, am a trained professional and will personally and forever back up my work and protect my reputation. You will be selling my expertise and the high quality subs that I search out."
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's a great ad. I've been trying to think of a sales presentation but I realized that I'm not exactly sure how salesmen sell remodeling. I have worked for companies that sold their work with a door-to-door salesman. I believe they called it "canvassing." Is selling door-to-door basically the only way for a salesman to sell remodeling?-T
I think that canvassing would be the worst way to sell remodeling.Canvassing is a form of lead sourcing. It falls under the term "marketing". Sales occurs after canvassing has produced a lead. This particular candidate asked me about our lead development program. My answer "none: we don't have one because if we get leads, no one is available to run them in a quality manner". She said exactly what I wanted to hear "No problem, I can do it!"I love that answer! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
So then . . . your salesperson will only sell after someone has already called you and asked the you to do the work?
-T
Edited 1/14/2008 9:13 pm ET by JourneymanCarpenterT
I'm not sure I understand your question. Heres the program that I envision as discussed by our group. The saleslady will get back in town in a couple weeks to start selling for us. In the meantime, she has already stated that she will start a program to develop leads. She'll monitor the leads as they come in and will handle them from start to finish. She will have to get our pricing information and run the final price by us before she attempts to sell it. She will be primarily focusing on additions, large and small and 2nd story additions. Primarily, she will focus on shell packages (foundation through dry-in including roof). That's how she sold over one million dollars in the last year. The largest shell package she sold was 190k. She said that her goal for 2008 is 3 million but she will have to re evaluate her goal because we are operating in a different market. None of us know where we "should" be. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Wow That's an incredible salesman you found.And it sounds like she is very knowledgeable and very talented.If she makes 20% of 1,000,000 she will be one happy camper.I watch the newspaper ads fairly closely and I don't recall seeing ads for someone to handle sales and marketing for a construction COAlthough I do see a lot of ads for roofing sales but that's about it.Sounds like a win win and a great opportunity for both parties.Good luck !
Whoa! Where did you come up with 20% on a million?! We offered 10%. 10% is generous and I'm sure I could have negotiated a split commission...10% on the first 10k, 5% after that. I decided, I really don't care. I hope she makes 300k this year. I told her that would be the nicest check I ever wrote! You are right....no one is seeking a salesperson for construction. I had been mulling that over when I started to analyze why she had to sort past hundreds of job offers and a week or more of posts to find ours. I'm willing to bet that there isn't one construction company looking for a commission sales agent. Then I remembered a recent thread in here where I suggested that someone replace themselves in the sales department and concentrate in their field work. I was criticized and many chirped in that the sales agent would out perform the carpenter. I stated that I'd rather have that problem. When you put two and two together, it makes sense. The carpenters around here think the same way. They won't hire a salesperson even if they thought about it because, well, because...their grand daddys didn't do it that way! Or, they'll find some other reason. They'll claim that they can't find enough help. They'll claim a lot of things...anything to avoid hiring that agent and taking the 10% out of their pocket. Psst...I have a secret-don't tell anyone...it ain't coming out of our pocket...it's part of the costs of the new construction, just like building permit costs...just like lumber...just like owner's salary. It's interesting that you never see any ads...and maybe you have an opportunity there yourself. Run that ad...see what happens! And you are right...she is talented or she's the greatest bser ever in the history of me being bamboozled...either way, she's hired!I am going to get me a roofing sales agent next. I just want to clear it with her that she isn't interested in that operation. I'm also going to get several other specialty salespeople. One at a time.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
That is a really intelligent positon to take on your part. Too many people want to be a jack of all trades. So they do some things really well, a few things less well, and some things horribly.
Since they only have to be judged by themselves and their customers they often let their ego's run amuck.. Most customers really have no judgement as to skill or value.. How many times do people have a variety of people do work for them so they can learn to judge? (I digress)
So what is your marketing budget? I know in a perfect world you do everything by word of mouth but you are relatively new to the area so somehow you'll need to get the word out to develop leads for her to persue.
I do know that great salespeople sell and that is a differant skill set from prospecting.. I've known great prospectors and great salespeople but I can't honestly say that I know anyone who is great at each differant skill set.. (I'm not)
One final point.. be prepared for success.. it's a lot harder than it seems.. administrationally you will be swamped if she is going to be successful. Further simply because she sells something at a profit that does not mean that the profit will remain. Predictions of profit makes assumptions that don't always happen in construction (as you well know)
and here's the hard part.. she might very well make more money than you do!
In the past when I was successfull I usually made more money than my manager and sometimes than the owner did. It's tempting at those times to attempt to cut commisions.. If you do you will lose her. Then you will spend a great deal of time and effort finding someone who can even approach her success rates.
Frenchy, thanks for the encouragement, as well as the warnings.You are right, we will have to budget for marketing. At this point, we haven't met to decide that. We also believe that we are prepared for the back office support that will be critical to move from a small one crew company to a much larger construction firm. All of our posturing has been in that direction.Our business model is actually designed for larger projects but we see the shell package division (and other residential services) as a relatively simple and fast means of keeping a core crew busy, while providing some cash flow. It's also relatively easy to schedule, market and sell. I'm not concerned at all about the sales staff earning more money. If I chart the outflow of cash, I think I would put a 15% slice of the pie going out to sales and marketing. If Ms Saleslady grabs 10%, that will leave 5% on the table for marketing. To me, it's as necessary of an expense as the x% for nails. I'm not as focused on my money as you might think. It's more about getting a company running right, so I can finally realize my dream of building a "real" business. I believe that if I find enough talent and point them toward the markets that will perform, the money will follow. By the way, I was serious when I asked if you were interested in heading to Austin... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
You are absolutely correct in that if you do the right things at the start money will follow.
I have a buddy who is in charge of a relatively big company's personnel and that company has grown in an extremely competitive market with one basic philosphy.
Take care of the people and the money will come.. Take care of the money and the people will go..
You've got some great ideas. I've seen some advertising lately which I think is very creative. Here's what they do.A company has an ad in newspaper, radio, or television and they say something like:"Growing & expanding company offering high quality kitchen and bathroom constriuction & remodeling. Specializing in granite, marble, traverdene, corian and the latest in products and materials.Due to recent growth and expansion we are hiring qualified experienced installation professionals". Or "Due to recent growth we are hiring sales & marketing staff, clerical & administrative, etc."******The main reason for their ad is "help wanted" and trying to hire people.But the ad is written in a way to advertise the company and generate leads & prospective customers.Seems like it's a good idea to me.
That sounds like an effort to kill two birds with one stone. In many cases, it is sound policy. Personally, I have a problem with companies that attempt to create interest in their companies by focusing on the growth of their staff and services. That might entice some buyers but a little flag goes up in my eyes. I know how hard it is to find qualified talented people so my immediate reaction to those companies are "Great....you've flooded your company with new hires and now you're going to send me your untested rookies onto my project and give them a test run..."I see an ad like that as double edged sword.I do think there could be a way to do the ad that qualifies the situation better. For instance, if the ad says "Due to growth, we are seeking additional staff. If you have very high ethical standards and a great track record of higher eduction, trade school, blah blah blah..." The problem with that approach is that it disqualifies many of the people you seek to hire. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have been a salesman for roughly 10 years now with recognized success and in briefly reading through some threads, there is some excellent advice given. To sum up my approach in my profession:
This may be beating a dead horse on this thread, but I hope my approach helps somewhat.
I don't think you've beaten any part of the horse. Nice post! I like you frame the essence of selling: educate and fulfill their need. Your follow up advice is something that jumps out at me, mainly because I've failed in that department over the years. Why? Because I'm usually too busy wearing too many hats. That was one of my big motivations to find a sales person who could focus on....sales! I think the remodeling industry is filled with well meaning trades who know what they are supposed to do but can't possibly fulfill all the duties that every hat requires. If were too busy scheduling the next job and tracking down a custom sized door, we hardly have enough time to browse in a gift shop for a vase and flowers for our customer's home that we are finishing today. Personally written thank you notes? Maybe after we get done with the next estimate! Thanks for weighing in Suckafly. Incidently, what are you selling? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Actually, I sell trade show exhibits and graphics. In essence, I am selling a design, which is not too different than contractors and builders.
In reading more posts, the idea about the book with pictures of projects is a very effective tool and I highly recommend it. This will establish a level of confidence in the customer. However, that said, you need to use it at the right time. Remember that the primary important step is to talk to the customer and learn about their situation first, making sure you cover all your questions. Then you present solutions.
One other thing you might present, if possible, is a list of past customers who will give you a nice reference. Or, better yet, get letters of references from customers you have done work for. Place these letters in the front of your picture book and make sure your prospect sees them and/or gets copies if they want. Again, this will establish a confidence level in your work.
I agree Suckafly. Having the presentation book handy does not mean every page should be flipped through and discussed. That's what the rookie salesperson would do instead of carrying on a normal conversation. The letters of reference is certainly a very key ingredient in a sales presentation book. No third party documentation is more powerful when selling retail. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Sales involves sitting down at the dining room table with your customers.
I think you should bring a lap top computer with pictures of your work.
Set the lap top to run a slideshow and your customers can look at the color pictures while you are talking to them about kitchen and bath remodels, the good work you do, your happy customers you use as references etc.
I don't know if I agree with that. I know the computer can be a powerful tool, but I'm not sure the first consultation would be the time to pull it out. Not everyone is keen on looking at a computer...especially if they've worked all day with one. Selling is a people business. I understand that a presentation needs to be done, but I think a flip book would be more flexible. Our latest addition to the crew mentioned that she had developed a thick presentation book but rarely opened it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The flip book works great. I saw one about a month ago when a foundation contractor made his pitch.
He had pictures of a dug out foundation and then pictures of the jacks or piers they installed to raise the foundation.I think before and after pictures would be very helpful showing before and after of bath and kitchen remodels etc.Something else I wanted to mention is taking digital pictures and sending them to people who can refer business to you.They show the pictures to their customers and give them your name and number.Here's an example.About a year ago I installed a nice tile floor in an office.I took pictures and emailed them to the business that sells flooring.They have installed a flat screen TV in their showroom and they have my pictures of the floor I did flashing on their TV screen.Customers can see what the floor looks like in a completed room (rather than just looking at the tile display or looking at one piece of tile.This is one of the pictures they are showing to their customers
I like that idea a lot MrFixitusa.My guess is that there are a lot of contractors that don't take pictures or have the ability to put together a quality presentation. Your helping them and getting your name out there in front of someone else. I would embed my logo and name in the pics. This is a really big idea....I gotta sleep on it and think about this for a bit. Incidently, my salestar is starting with us sooner than we thought. When she went back to her place of employment, the boss offered her 25%. When she refused, he got angry. Oops...that reaffirmed her decision.His loss, our gain. We are all geeked over here. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I hope things go really well with your new salesman.I'm just curious, what do you think is the key to her success in sales?I've been around various realtors who are good salesmen and here is what I watched one woman realtor do.She worked as a Buyer's Agent with someone I know. She found out what they wanted and then showed them a few houses.Then a few weeks later she called the Buyer and said the following:"I found the perfect house for you !!!!!!!!!!!"It's sooo cute !!!!!"Wow, You're going to love it !!!!!!!!"I can't wait to show you !!!!!!"Let's go look at it today before it's gone !!!!!!"I'm so excited for you guys and I can't wait for you to see it !!!!!!I just know you're going to love it !!!!!!****As opposed to a realtor just calling and saying "hi, do you guys want to look at some more houses this week - I looked at one yesterday that looks interesting"See what I mean?I was just wondering what her style and personality is, where she finds her leads, did she pay several thousand dollars for weekend sales training from a "national expert", etc etc
Jillian (the cat is out of the bag) has natural talent. She has not had any sales training. She would be a great realtor. You described a realtor that exudes excitement when she finds the "right" house. If it's genuine, it's contagious. This description fits Jillian to a tee. She LOVES the design process that is a huge part of the remodeling scene. She's excited about working with others on their home, exploring the possibilities, explaining what's possible, what's been done, etc. This energy is critical to the process. I couldn't generate that much enthusiasm on my best day in my entire career! I'm not emotional about the job....I'm logical, practical, technical, etc. What do you think connects better with Mrs Jones? Jillian worked many years as a paralegal through college and beyond. At some point, she decided she wanted some of the excitement that sales and business offers. When she took on a job in construction, she did something very unorthodox: she educated herself about the entire process and can actually converse intelligently about all aspects of it! That demonstrates enthusiasm about her chosen profession. These are a long list of talents that I observed about her: ambitious, driven, enthusiastic, confident, educated, organized, thoughtful, excited, open, engaging, intelligent, considerate, co-operative, creative, intuitive, detail oriented, aggressive, assertive, eloquent, etc. We refer to her as the "total package".When you package all those attributes and bundle them with someone that is doing what they love, things just happen naturally. Her words to me were "I didn't mind working 60 hours per week because it wasn't work, it was FUN!"Summed up, her style is gregarious, engaged, interested and willing to serve and educate while understanding the business side of the equation. She took a single crew subcontractor from a sub to a profitable General Contractor using internet leads. She did it because no one told her it couldn't be done! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What do you think connects better with Mrs Jones?
Oops, I just saw you wrote "what" rather than "who". I was going to point out that it is not necessarly the gender that will connect.
I worked with a number of salespeople at the cabinet shop. The top salesperson was a guy who was a former IBM salesman, and sold circles around the female salespeople who had the interior design degrees. In fact the #2 salesperson was a guy also.
That was a good way to learn too, being at a potential project and observing a trained salesman. Something that JourneymanT needs to realize also is that the cabinet shops have a good deal of marketing dollars tied up in any leads they would funnel his way. They are going to expect him not to screw the leads up. Without an awareness of the skills, he may do that, and end up on their "blacklist".
Congratulations on the hire. It would be very interesting to pick her brain, for those of us who can't see our way clear to hire out sales. <G>
Bowz
"It would be very interesting to pick her brain"It's all been said before: passion.It will overcome every rookie mistake. One of the things she said about last year was that often, she was the only one who called back and showed up. She said "showing up is more than half the battle!" We've all discussed this before so we know shes truthing. I don't know if it shows, but I'm geeked. She's inspired me! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
yes, a person with passion would get the sale over someone with sales techniques but no passion. But I'd rather be the one with passion and techniques. Even just a few.
I don't have the 50 or 100 or 200 that Frenchy may have, and I don't know that they have names. I think I am quite often just giving the client a small nudge to get them "over the edge" to make the decision. Almost giving them an excuse to say "Yes". Usually they have made the emotional decision to say yes, but need the logical reason laid out. Often I will try to picture the client explaining to their neighbor the reason for doing the project. I want them to have a reason to appear intelligent, or at least not look foolish. (Concept from "Selling the Invisible")
Here are a few that I have employed:
"you deserve it" close. basically getting the client to feel good about themselves, and give themselves a reward.
"fear of loss" close. Good for repair jobs. "Seems you have about a $1000 repair now, but it will grow to $4000 when the sheathing and rafters are rotted too"
"divide up the cost" close. I had a project I mentioned here once before where the ballpark estimate was $25K and they were expecting $15K. They had mentioned staying in the house at least 10 more years, so I pointed out that getting a larger bedroom for their daughter, and more storage for themselves was really only $1K per year.
"feel, felt, found" close. People are more comfortable making the same decision that someone else has made. " Mrs. Client, I understand how you feel, other clients have felt the same way, what they found was .............."
look for the upsell. On the addition I had mentioned where the client switched to a full basement, I knew there was another bidder. So my initial price discussions for the roofing were only to tie into the existing roof. I explained that it would be better to strip the whole roof and re-do all of it, as the existing shingles looked to be about 10-15 yrs old. Once she agreed to that, I asked If she also wanted to do the detached garage at the same time, so that all the shingles matched exactly. (she went with that idea too). No pressure involved, just explaining different options.
"retained value" close. About 2 months ago I had been looking at a project to put in a second floor laundry. The clients were hesitating, because they were concerned about whether it would be a detriment to the ability to sell the condo later. I asked why were they considering the laundry room? "Because we are getting older and don't want to haul the laundry up and down the stairs." I pointed out that they are at the begining of the "Silver Tsunami" known as the boomers getting older, and that demographic will be looking for this type of modification.
"can't take it with you" close. This is just an idea I look for in boomers. It stems from a client telling me, "We are going to spend the money because I've never seen a U-Haul, pulled behind a hearse."
There are a few more, but maybe this could give JourneymanT an idea.
Bowz
Great post...I forgot about all those! $1000 per year= about $3 per day = a Starbucks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This thread is getting better and better, but I think your post is the one I've learned the most from yet. You must be a good salesman, because I'm definitely sold on "Selling the Invisible." I'll be buying it tomorrow.
Thanks for posting those experiences.-T
I enjoy reading all the comments on this, One thing i would like to point out is im really interviewing the people to see if I want to work for them, if i was selling cars maybe i could be a pushy salesman cause im really not going to be in there home for weeks on end trying to get along with them, One key in this biz is who NOT to work for, If i have 10 minutes i can tell.
well, that was part of my point... i once spent about $5000 in legal costs trying to satisfy a customerthat i should never have been working for
the only thing that saved me from further disaster in that case was my Mandatory Arbitration clause
in another example: i remember a couple that wanted considerable work on their home .. all new windows ( primary windows ), new siding, new kitchen, new workshop, new sitting room addition
on work of that scope ( heck, on most work ) i need information.. one .. do they have a budget figure in mind ?.. do they have plans ?
when it came to budget, i blinked.... told them $300K wouldn't surprise me... they came back with their max was $200K... and then she proceeded to tell me how she could do it for less than $200K
on that type job i want a design fee which will also cover the cost of preparing the Proposal
but after 3 meetings , we never got to that point... my " ballpark" had created the impression in her mind that i was trying to take advantage of them
that would be a good job to follow up on .. just to see what they really did and what they spent, and who did the design and the work
i live in a small town.. been in business for 30 years.. so it's easy for people to check on my reputation..... i think she heard something that she didn't like and i was never going to make that sale
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
'Selling the Invisible".........credit my buying it to Mike Smith recommending it here, and Paul Winans highly recommending it at the Remodeling show.
Bowz
geesh, bowz.. now i'm going to have to go back and reread" Selling the Invisible"
i still love "Guerilla Marketing " tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore