So how do you convince people to pay more than the absolute minimum?
Decades ago I took a job selling lite bulbs. It was an intensive training course where over a week was spent in the technical details of lite bulbs alone. Since I had a such strong sales background they let me skip the three weeks of sales training and I went directly to work..
I’ll skip ahead to get to the critical stuff.
I would walk in and get a meeting with the owner.. These aren’t stupid people. They knew what a package of lite bulbs cost and I was asking a ton more..
Once I got them to look at the differance lite made I knew I had the sale.
These weren’t miracle bulbs, no lifetime replacement nonsense involved. The trick was that I knew things they didn’t. I understood about lumens, color, hue, brillance, and shape.. Many of these places had lighting designed by lighting specialists but business pressure allowed the wrong bulbs to be used and while there was a bulb in place chances were 80% of them were wrong.
Flood/spot lights used in can fixtures. Wrong color, wrong wattage, wrong focal points.. etc..
My favorite was seeing a regular 60 watt bulb in a can fixture and replacing it with the proper can bulb and in the right color.. with the correct lumens and brillance..
They could see that a 13 cent lite bulb should be replaced witha $25.00 lite bulb..
I digress.
Anyway what I’m saying is that you have knowledge hard earned knowledge that should be worth a premium to an owner..
Do not fall for the idea that cheapest always should get the deal.. Stop giving out quotes that the next guy can underbid and get the deal.. start selling yourself and your knowledge/skill/ talent..
Do that by demonstration not words.. words are cheap.. However if you listen well to the customer and ask the right questions you won’t be taken as just another contractor..
You should have a nice photo book with you to show them what you are talking about.. Show details of what appears to be nice construction and what’s actaully wrong with it..
Now when talking money, there are simple rules which you should never violate..
First never talk money untill you’ve explained value!
Second get agreement of value before proceeding.
Third assure them that in a pure price competitive deal that you can be price competitive with anyone doing the proper quality of work. The differance you offer is in value..
(value is an interesting word.. define it in terms where you can show how it benefits them in tangable ways..)
Replies
Frenchy:
That was quite an interesting dialogue.
Well stated.
Selling value is key and much of what we, as in the renovation bus sell is ourselves.
We need to have acceptable quality (that is often pass fail for the client in my opinion though many might disagree) but we need to demonstrate that we know exactly how to handle their situ and give them the best of what they are looking for.
We also need to make sure they are comfortable with us moving in with them for the period of our project. (that is huge with kitchen and interior disruptive renovations)
If they are looking for the best price, I run for the hills, because they will be constantly looking for cheaper cheaper. It is not that I cant be the lowest cost proposition for them, I probably can be close if I need to, but I dont want to work for people who put price as the primary value they are looking for. We have much more to offer to those that appreciate the other parts of the value equation.
Those looking for cheap have not learned about value.. cheap isn't really what people want. However they don't understand value and that is our job to explain why cheap isn't good..
Cheap is easy. We all went to second grade and know how to add and subtract.. what we don't know is value and that's where our job should focus..
You know they are cheap if they drive older economy cars and wear 2nd hand clothes etc.. If they have a nice car and nice clothes they understand that cheap isn't really what they want but no one has taken the time to explain value to them in a way that they accept..
Any attempt to sell a job baaed purely on price is doomed to failure unless you yourself are willing to do average work for less than average pay..
But
But
ButIf you sell one hundred and two of those thirteen cent light bulbs for nine dollars, you are losing $4.26
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
?
If you sell one hundred and two of those thirteen cent light bulbs for nine dollars, you are losing $4.26
?
Selling 102 / 13 cent lite bulb for $9.View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Joke - look at the title of your thread and do the math based on that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"If you sell one hundred and two of those thirteen cent light bulbs for nine dollars, you are losing $4.26"Sounds like some of the solar panel sales..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Piffin,
OK I finally got what you are attempting to say.. Hopefully in a humerous way but I didn't see the smiley face or the word <grin> so I didn't catch that you were trying to be humerous.. (the weakness of the internet)
However I tried to trade the slash for the word Or because there wasn't enough room to write; Selling 102 or, selling a 13 cent lite bulb for $9.45
(if you recall my previous efforts on this subject were tittled selling 101)
" You know they are cheap if they drive older economy cars and wear 2nd hand clothes etc.. "I drive a 1992 toyota 4 by pickup and have found a few shirts I like at the church rummage so I think I passed the cheap test. Or is the truck not economical enough and is it ok if I bought it new?I appreciated your analysis of value and think you make an outstanding argument. I probably am cheap but hope to keep finding customers who appreciate value because as much as I like to buy cheap I don't like to sell my services cheap.I didn't use to have to give much of a sales pitch as it seemed there was more local demand for granite countertops than there was supply but things have changed a lot in that respect in the last two years. It is about time I did some reading on sales techniques.Keep the ideas coming.Karl
Karl, I own a 12 year old pickup with nearly 300,000 miles on it and the shirst I wear are all freebies from various comapnies I've worked for in the past few decades.. So I know I meet the cheap part..
Being cheap isn't a bad thing as long as you have priorities where being cheap isn't paramont. Then you have values..
A sales pitch implies that you talk and they listen..
Any good salesman know the only reason to talk is to get them to speak..
In speaking people will revel more about themselves then they will by listening and this is about them and not you.
The better you know them the better you should be able to satisfy their needs.. Remember price objections simply means you haven't done a good job of selling values..
In this market, we need to be cost sensitive because the clientelle are, but it is a balancing act.
I have learned that when they want a price concession, i also take out some features so that they understand that 1+1=
They get it pretty quick and if they like me and want to bus, they figure it out.
IT not about taking things away from them,, it's about filling their needs..
Present it in that manner and you will become a consultant not a salesman.. nobody fires a consultant. Once you are selected as a consulant all you need to do is fill their desires and they will be happy..
Let me give an example..
I can do that job at the price you want to pay if you can accept lower cost materials. Which do you prefer, the laminate counter top or paying $1200 more for the granite counter top?
See that way you haven't been deselected with either choice. you've acted as their agent rather than someone trying to sell something..
That's the whole trick.. Have them make the selection lower price or cheaper items.. either case you are still hired..
Frenchy,
Why don't you rent a function room at a local hotel and give seminars on selling technique ?
There are lots of folks who are used to giving a price for a job and don't know much about salesmanship. In this business climate - more contractors are going to have to become salesmen too.
It seems thats your real passion -- and you could use the work !
those who can... do....
those who can't... teach
sales is a true art form... those that do it well can sell anything...
when it comes to construction... when you are dealing with another persons home... which is often their biggest investment and asset... it's not that same as selling them a car... a shirt or the same as working for a contractor...
Value as french stated is what you are selling... comes in a few forms... how long people are planning on staying in the home is a huge consideration... if they only plan to stay a few more years after the renovation or addition... then you as the trades person or contractor need to know the market and values... you don't need them to end up with 4500sf in an area of 2500sf homes.... just like you don't need them having way more in the home than they'd ever get out of it... BUT if they plan on die'n in that house... it's a non issue... they already love the area and the home they have... investing in that love they don't need to consider what return they will get on that investment in money terms...
it all comes down to being informed...
price still has it's place... and most people can expand their budget 10-15% for something they really want... we all know of people that get top dollar for sub par work... all most here want to do is get a fair price for good work...
we all know i want high end for as little as i can get it for... and i do pretty good to that end... which is much of an art as is sales...
P
those who can... do.... those who can't... teach************************I'm sure you are just repeating an old cliche and haven't really thought about the words seriously (or have you??). This is an old saw which has been around for a long time, and is usually bandied about as though it is some kind of gospel truth (which it isn't!). If you take the time to think seriously about this, you are likely to realize that the accusation can be seriously offensive. A prerequisite to teaching is that one has the knowledge/experience to be able to do so. As an example, in the college where I taught before my retirement, a prerequisite for employment in the Trades Division was that applicants must not only have journeyman qualifications, but must also have a number of years of relevant experience in the trade. To ensure that the students were properly prepared, they had to pass examinations set by and evaluated by an external body.Not all teachers are failures :)Ted
Ted, if you are taking offense at that "old saw" you might think about seeing a humor therapist.
"Ted, if you are taking offense at that "old saw" you might think about seeing a humor therapist."
Or maybe a humor teacher!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
didn't mean to offend... and it's way too broad of a statement i understand... but has a whole it has merit...
like the business professor who told Fred Smith the idea of a mail/ freight airline could never work... last i checked Fed-EX is doing ok...
like the countless music and art professors who have told students they had no talent...
in business school unless it's a retired from business professor... it's very rare to find one who could make it in the business world...
the public schools on every level are filled with teachers who are teachers not for the passion of teaching but are there for a secure paycheck and 2 months a years vacation...
no not all... and i have a huge respect for those that teach... it's a shame the profession doesn't compensate according to the results they obtain... just no way to do without rewarding the dead wood...
A prerequisite to teaching is that one has the knowledge/experience to be able to do so.
would be nice if that was so... but we all know it's not or our schools would be the model for the world... most urban school systems graduate far less than 50% of the kids that attend... blame it on what you will but... there is a huge difference between getting hired as a teacher and being able to teach... but thats not what we are talk'n about...
Not all teachers are failures :)
never said that... and sure didn't mean to imply it... I'm sure in most trade type schools the instructors are well versed in their field... which doesn't mean they could make a living doing it... which really comes back to the saying "those who can do... those who can't teach" could be for any number of reasons one might not be able to do a job or trade... which doesn't mean they couldn't teach others to do it... Kinda like building inspectors that couldn't make it as a trades person or just didn't want to work that hard... doesn't mean they don't make good inspectors...
P:)
I studied the business of such approaches.. Frankly the odds of success for non"brandname speakers" is too slim to calculate..
I have a deeply held personal belief..
The best way for me to succeed is to be as generous as I possibly can.. to give back what I've been given.
I try to help others and sooner or later I'll recieve a benefit.. It's not a one for one thing..
I usually do a little something nice for someone and they refer me to someone who needs my services or help.. the value I recieve is far out of proportion to the thing I do but perhaps it reflects my attitude..
You are a sales trainer.
Just the way you present the info is a calling.
I read the 2nd post before the 1st so responding backwards but you are right, as soon as I become the client advocate and discuss the different value propositions for them after understanding their needs, wants, and desires, I can then begin to envision and describe what I picture based on what they tell me. Then we go thru the conceptual plan stage and define anticiapted budget based on what I deem as reasonable materials based on my understanding of what they describe as important. (is it Moen Chateau faucets with cultured marble tops or Kohler 8" spread faucets on marble with undermount)
Then we can work the process and get to a place where they get what they want and I can be profitable.
Jeff----- frenchy has disagreed vehemently with me on this many times but I KNOW there are situations where the "take it or leave it " approach is gold It works very well for me, as a roofing contractor--- probably wouldn't work as a kitchen remodeler though.----- for me-- if I look at the situation---preferably meet the customer( but even that isn't strictly necissary)---- diganose the situation and point by point explain exactly HOW I am going to solve whatever problem the customer has------ the "take it or leave it" approach works very well any request by a customer for a lower price is effectively deflected" I am sorry--but for ME to do the project I just described I HAVE to charge that amount-- if I do it differently, for less-- I won't be able to solve the problem"the "being liked" thing is probably important as well. A customer I have done projects for in the past called me yesterday and said" Steve-- I am not even getting other prices-- I REALLY liked the work you did for us in the past--and more importantly I like you as a person"that really made me laugh when I got off the phone----NOBODY has ever said that in those words to me before--- But I suspect the basic sentiment behind his remarks is present in a lot of my transactions. It's funny to me because i have ZERO social skills--- but perhaps personality issues that might make me unpleasant in some areas of life--- are percieved as desirable when looking for someone to replace your roof ? :>)
Perhaps we all have are niche--why fight it?
Best wishes,
stephen
Stephen:
Your take it or leave it attitude isn't an ignorant, No, it is an explanation that to do the work that you need to do to solve their problem, that is the cost.
When people trust you as a contractor (which may be construed as liked by some) they will figure out a way to work it out with you because they know you will do the right job. I also guess that you give them options for roofing products (good, better, best) which changes the cost so that you are effectively giving them some options to help fit it to their budget.
I work hard to figure out how to save clients money when I know they have not taken the job out to bid. I will do extras for free and make sure they feel like they got great treatment so that they continue to call me and refer me.
Keepin on keepin on
Jeff
Jeff-- actually, I don't use the good,better,best method.
for me- it's counter productive.
i have a certain way i like to work- a certain range that works for us good,better,best----well I don't want to give the "good" option-- it's usually a miniscule savings in material---- the labor is identical-- the customer gets a demonstrably worse project---and really doesn't save. keep in mind--typically we are solving the same3 or 4 problems-----and replacing roofs on highly similar houses . I tell THEM what we are going to use. Period------they can pick the color.
not to be too arrogant---- but most of our work is in a very limmited geographical range( 12 block radius)--- I have spent the majority of my working life developing what works well HERE.- that's what they are paying me for-- i really want very little input from the customer---and THEY want very little input as well----they are trusting me to solve their problem. maybe 1/10 times or 1/20 times a prospective customer approaches me with something specific already in mind that is different than what we generally use--- in those cases the customer is MUCH more informed than the typical customer-- and if the material meets or exceeds what I want to use--- I will adjust accordingly--- but it isa pretty rare occurence.Again- i realize this wouldn't work with general remodeling or kitchen building.
best wishes,
stephen
Steven
You close 50% of your leads. Because it is all referall I would think that number would be much higher. Like 85%. And the other 15% pushed into next year. Heck, I want you to do MY roof. In aboout 15 years. And I'm across half a country.
When folks decline the opportunity to work with you what is the reason given? Not enough $$ to cover the overage on the insurance? Don't like you? (lol, threw that in there to get your head back to the right size)
Referall work should be slam dunk. So only a 50% close rate seems low. (I wish I had a 50% close rate. Ours is more like 25%)
I'm going to guess that he closes "only" 50% because he's pricing them correctly against a flood of lowballers.
Well, that means that he has priced correctly. Filled his capacity. At a price he likes.
Price too low and get a 99% close rate. Price too high and get a 1% close rate.
I just would like to hear WHY folks decline to do business w/Stephen..
Can you put me on your schedule for 2020?
that we all could do so good
edit: forgot to welcome you back blue
Edited 2/8/2009 9:36 pm ET by Scrapr
Scrapr--- I can see how it would look like i have a big head--- but actually I am a pretty insecure guy!
As far as WHY someone wouldn't go with me-- i am sure there are many reasons
1) they might percieve me as arrogant or un-yeilding( the same personality might be percieved as confident by the 50% who DO buy)2) keep in mind that I am primarily selling something that most people will percieve as a commodity product--roofing. so cost is always going to be an issue for some people---- no matter how great the referall or how solid my presentation--and that's OK with me3)- i have a method of work that provides the desired effect on what are typically the hard houses in the neighborhood--- and it's by and large percieved as a fair price on those houses----- but on an easier house------ the same pricing structure could be percieved as too expensive4) typically--- our customers-- those we close---have owned their house for years--and intend to own their house for years--THAT developes a different mindset. Almost certainley they have been burned in the past and so NOW price may be on the list--- but it is much farther down as a concern.- however---- some may call me as a referall---- that just bought their house last year---or they are selling their house NEXT year---- I am not a good fit for them5)-- as I said before- I don't WANT more than a 50% closing ratio, I don't WANT every possible sale- I don't WANT to roof every roof that someone else might want me to roof. I am looking for certain types of projects that allow me to work the way I want to work-- and live the way I want to live. If you dig back to my posts in the summer of 2007--- I was way over worked, winey and miserable6)- you mentioned time and distance---some customers wait-years----- others I am eilling to drive a bit for----- if I like the project( driving is rare though) tommorrow morning( weather permitting) I am going to write a proposal for a roof about 35 minutes away. That prospective customer is a referall--- from her neighbor across the street( neighbors-- but the houses are 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile apart the lots are that big) the refering neighbor-- we did HER roof last year(2008) SHE got my name from her son--a contractor in Las Vegas who called up his parents in OHIO after reading one of my articles in FHB and insisted they hire me2 of my closed sales for this year--- occured much the same way7)-- you asked WHY someone wouldn't go with me. It's a fair question----- but really I don't find that mindset of much use to me------- what I prefer-- is to look for common denominators of the people who DO buy---and put my efforts into THOSE people. THAT is why I am interested in prospects who have owned their house for years- and intend to own their house for years. Keeping in mind that I operate as a seasonal business- I only NEED so many projects--- I might very well attempt different strategies IF I was interested in working 12 months a year-- or IF I wanted multiple crews etc--- but THOSE things would make my product VERY different and I am not interested in thatBTW--- I know you won't believe this-- but a customer actually called to accept a proposal on the phone while I was typing #7 above---- so I am currently above 50%, LOLstephen
Thanks Stephen
I was really joking about your big head. I'm not sure that came through. You mentioned in a previous note that you were getting the big head.
So if your closing rate is plus 50% now you better write that proposal this am VERY high. Don't want to mess up your %. ;-)
As far as why people buy or don't buy I thought you may have heard the typical reasons. Need to get it done, too expensive, only X amount of insurance money, etc
I was just curious and trying to learn from you. I admire your business model.
Stephan,
typically--- our customers-- those we close---have owned their house for years--and intend to own their house for years--THAT developes a different mindset. Almost certainley they have been burned in the past and so NOW price may be on the list--- but it is much farther down as a concern.-
you have made this comment before, and I wanted to extend the thought. The different mindset is also developed from other factors that have happened in the customers life. Someone who has lived in their house for 20 years or so is your typical customer, you have said that in other threads.
So where does that put them? Let's say they bought their house at 25 yrs old, so they are now 45 and have looked at possibly moving but have decided to stay because they like the nieghborhood.
They are bringing home their best income of their life so far. Their kids are in high school, or recently graduated. they have watched their parents age, and perhaps they have even lost one or both of them. they begin to realize time is running out on them too.
basically the change in mindset is they now begin to see the time/money ratio tip in the direction of time being more important than money. Whether they verbalize it or not, your quality work means they no longer have to worry about the roof. That frees up more of their time.
Time is the one commodity that can never be replaced. As it becomes more scarce, it becomes more valuable. That is a big part of the shift in mindset you speak about. I'd be curious if you see that in your sales calls also.
Bowz
Bowz----- i would strongly suspect that you are right about that-- I have no reason to doubt you-and it makes sensehowever i KNOW that many of my customers wet with me, despite a higher price----after being burned in the past by lower priced work------precisely because many of them have told me exactly that--in those words. so far-- nobody has verbalized the fleeting nature of life and the value of TIME ! :>)------- but I bet that weighs in there as well.Maybe 10 years ago--- there was a guy here on Breaktime named Sonny Lycos-- he had his good points and his bad points--- but one thing he used to say was something to the effect that " from the moment you go into business your first priority should be to develope your business to the point that it is 100% referalls" I didn't fully appreciate that at the time---- but the years went by and I got closer and closer to that point accidentally----and I NOTICED what was going on----and started to consciously strive for that----
what a difference! I started recomending ,on occasion, different materials--- even INSISTING on specific materials, specific procedures because---- while the present project was important---it's REAL value was as part of an ongoing chain of referalls. In other words--- yes THIS house is important--- but I want the roof next door- and the one across the street,and the co-workers roof, and the daughter -in-laws work and so on. EVERY project is an audition for the next one---which is why we set up the jobs a certain way,why we don't leave equipment stored on the customers property over night, why all debris goes in a dump truck or dump trailer AND IS REMOVED FROM THE SITE each day, why we start at a certain time and end by a certain time, why the workers have to park a certain way, dress a certain way, why we CHARGE a certain way and so forth just about everything we do now--- is geared towards that referall. I got a call yesterday morning----a customer we did a roof for maybe 7-8 years ago( I actually posted pictures of it here once)
anyhow 2-3 layers of asphalt shingles over a layer of cedar shingles----- it all was torn off, the entire roof re-decked, copper valleys, copper drip edge, copper roof vents, Heavy weight laminates and so forth customer has always loved the roof-- I had called amonth or so ago to ask if I could use their name as a reference on another matter---- of course they agreed---and I sent them a handwritten thankyou note.Customers wife called me yesterday-FLABBERGASTED that I had taken the time to write a note by hand thanking them and she just couldn't get over it" NOBODY does that!" she said I told her that I was obligated to do so---- if she was gracious enough to refer me to others--------- I MUST write and thank her. how much business do you think will evolve out of a 4 line hand written thank you note?????
stephen
Well put.
100 % of my work is referral.
I just need a little more of it.
The non-referral work I get called about is never going to be profitable for me because of the tire-kicker effect and lowest price philosophy.
I beg your pardon but it's not really tire kicker mentality. You simply have failed to convince them of the value of your work.
Surprise! you can't expect to talk them into it..
If you are smart you will let them talk themselves into using you..
That is the differance and apparently you haven't mastered it.. Don't feel bad having a skill is enough for most people. the only problem is that it limits your market..
If you could master some of the sales techinques you will be able to get more work and maybe earn a better living.. (not to mention the pleasure of perhaps selecting what work you want to do during building booms)..
Sorry Frenchy but no amount of selling will ever convert some congenital tire kickers.
That seem to have got from their mother's milk and will never be swayed.
I sell the value in my work, the problems solved and the durability of solutions offered. Lots of people can not or will not buy what I sell.
You are partially correct though. My clients have definitely talked themselves into using me. I just need them to be cloned!
Do you know how many customers come to me as tire kickers?
I mean do you feel you should buy a $100,000 piece of equipment that needs to be hauled around from job to job? Most of the guys I sold to had little more than some tools and ambition.. Many didn't even own a house yet..
If I couldn't have moved them I wouldn't be able to live as well as I have.
Tire kickers are just telling you that they don't know and are asking you to sell them (without the pushiness most salesmen use when they really don't understand sales technique)
I suspect there are differences between selling mobile equipment that generate srevenue and efficiency gains for the purchaser and the very personal selling of renovation and new construction services customized for each client.
There are the people who believe the get three quotes mantra and take the lowest price to their detriment in many cases.
I am more than happy to educate and inform but even the slightest whiff of price shopping and my radar is telling me to head for the door.
most of the time i find that they may WANT 3 quotes, but most really can't get them
either the "competition " won't show up..
or they will show up, but never get back to them...
or they get back to them with a pretty amatureish "quote"...
being there is half the battle
but as for "salesmanship".... i don't think you are correct... it all comes down to the same thing... if you know and believe in your "product" and you know and understand salesmanship, then it doesn't matter wether it's forklifts, or watch bands... or painting , or remodeling or new homes
so... i still want to hear from successful salesmen...
when i think back to me starting out on my own in '75... i detested selling...
but it slowly dawned on me that we are all salesmen... wether we're selling ourselves to our employers, or selling widgets, or selling stimulous plans, or remodeling
but, hey, whadda i no ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree, in part, you and Frenchy make many good points.
I am always selling.
Some times not as effectively as possible but I have certainly learned to pitch to those that a qualified one way or another.
There seems to be a certain disrespect for many contractors and what they have to offer.
And, you probably know more than me FWIW.
but it slowly dawned on me that we are all salesmen
Mike...it's worse than that! In every conversation, someone is selling and someone is buying.
YOu buying that?
if you're selling.... i'm buyingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
When you thing about it..it's true...plus, I learned that in a sales seminar...so it must be true LOL!
The best sales people are kids. They instinctively know all of Frenchy's secrets.
selling is selling..
In my lifetime I've sold fruits and vegitables, news papers, magazine subscriptions, Tires, cars, RV's, trucks, packaged sandwiches, and construction equipment, to mention but a few..
It's not the product!
It's about connecting with people in a way that makes them understand the value of what you are selling. If all you do is drop off quotes and give a feeble attempt to close the deal you will lose constantly to those who do more and do it better.
Remember nothing happens untill something is sold..
Stephan,
The idea of Time being what we are really selling in remodeling is not one I invented. It was told to me by a 62 year old retired multi-millionaire who "made it all in construction, real estate, and remodeling," a couple of years ago.
As I thought about it, this analogy kind of came to me. The summer after high school I played softball in a league. I was not any outstanding athlete, but had fun. There were others on the team who were power hitters. Yet one night, I got a perfect low and outside pitch, I don't remember even swinging that hard, but the ball just didn't go over the fence, it went over the trees behind the fence. it seemed like every good hit I had, came from connecting with a low outside pitch.
That's what Time is in my sales situations. It's the low outside pitch I want to connect with. (though it is not the only one) It's a hidden value the average carpenter turned contractor is not going to see.
I remember Sonny very well. We passed a few e-mails back and forth some time ago, though it wasn't 10 years, more like 3-4 years ago. In fact after his son Pete died, Qualified Remodeler did an article with his son Tom about closing out the work after a contractor dies. Anyway, there was a picture of Sonny, Pete, and Tom, that I cut out and had taped to my computer,so every day I had Sonny "looking" at me.
For the most part I agree with referals, but I still have the idea that Mark Richarson of Case Remodeling put out that it is also good to have a trickle of new blood coming into your client base.
Part of wanting new blood for me personally is that in the past I got a lot of work from a cabinet shop, and a mom and pop lumber yard. In a short time they both went away, and I struggled to get work. About two years ago I tracked back a bunch of leads and realized that the majority came from 3 people. One was 82 and his health was failing. Another was a 63 year old plumber who is looking to retire, and the third flat out told me that since we had renovated his rentals, and he built a new house, the amount of work from him would be slowing down.
But we are talking very similar things. In late November a guy I ski with mentioned my name to someone in their office, that I installed doors, "though he is a little pricey". So I set an appointment to look at it, arrive with door catalogs, and my photo album, so I can show a series of photos of how his sub-sill will need to be re-built etc. (note: this series of photos has kitchens in front of it and bathrooms behind it).
Long story short, when I go over to get the down payment he asks if I had time to look at his neighbor's door. So last week that one got put in too. While working on door #1, customer #1 asks if I had another card he could give the neighbor accross the street. I hand him a brochure instead, which he leaves laying on the kitchen counter. his wife picks it up and reads "kitchens and bathrooms" in part of it.
Went skiing with Mr Referal last weekend and he tells me how customer #1 is planning to do their bath and kitchen sometime this year. And how excited customer #1 was that someone other than Lowes actually showed up to look at their door.
Oh well, there is a lot of discussion fodder hear, but I got bills to get out.
Bowz
If you are in the remodeling business--- you have the whole "customers hopes and dreams" thing to consider-- the dream kitchen you are expected to make reality
AND- as you said "Time" but I tend to view my niche----as "solving other peoples problems" Very typical experience this morning:
Yesterday afternoon I recieved a call from a older customer. I had been to his house once before--in 2006. He had a few shingles blow off a corner of his attached garage in 2006 which I replaced AND at that time he had asked for a ballpark figure on replacing the entire roof.I got HIS name---from his son. I go to his sons house 2-3 times a year to replace blown off shingles on HIS roof---but he just won't pony up for replacing the entire roof-- but I have collected MANY service call charges-------
anyhow--- this morning I go over to the fathers house----- he has shingles blown off the opposite corner of the attached garage this time--AND he has the remnants of the bundle of shingles I had used in 2006 so---- for my standard service call charge I replace the blown off shingles-AND he asks me for a detailed proposal for replacing the roof--- which I prepare on the spot--- he asks a few questions, I point out that I Storm nail( 6 nails) all the shingles and that I am puuting six feet of ice gaurd down along the bottom edge of the roof and so forth
He accepts the proposal on the spot At the time( very unprofessional of me)----- I have a labrador retriever puppy napping in my truck-- the pup and I leave the customers house--- and go to the canal towpath and take a 3 mile walk--- I stop in the grocery store on the way home for some fresh baked bread for dinner-----and run into the same customer right there. BTW---- the manager of my branch bank saw my pup waiting for me in the truck a few weeks ago-----made me go back out and bring the pup into the bank to meet all the tellers( it was a slow banking day) I don't normally drive around in a pick up truck with my dogs with me-- but it is winter and I am supposed to be on vacation,not working,-- so untill spring-when possible the dog rides with me guess I am turning into a real yokel, LOL
stephen
whadda ya mean "turning " ?
hey... how about them Indians ? pitchers & catchers getting ready Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey-- i am 2 for 2 today--- just sold another one it won't be dark for another 45 minutes--- if I can close another one today that would be "the hat trick" wouldn't it? ( probably bad form of me to celebrate, what with other folks having a rough go of it--- but that is the great thing about roofs-- every building has one and they ALL need replaced sooner or later.BTW- i may have also found a new, good helper today as well-----plus the puppy hasn't peed in the house for almost 2 weeks, so---all in all a satisfactory turn of eventsStephen
stephen..... later today i'll post some pics of the last roofing job on that Dormer.... you won't believe itMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I understand the concept and agree that it is important to educate the cutomer that that is the way things work.. that he can't buy $10.00 worth for $8.00
However when you say take it or leave it prior to actually closing the sale the customer is likely to leave it rather than take it..
That's fine when we all had more business than we could handle but terrible if we scrapping the bottom of the barrel to survive..
Again Frenchy,
you aren't living in my world-- I am not selling lightbulbs or widgets
simplest way to phrase this--- is so far this year I am closing over 50%--- which is about what I normally do not a tremendous number of proposals written this year------- but actually about average for this time in ordinary years----- so I am pretty confident it will work out to right around 50%which is--- just about what it was in 2007 and 2006 before our local hail storm in june 2007. the hailstorm--- while it made me some money=========actually pushed my average way down under 50% this year is looking like a return to more normal times for me
which is welcome--AND which means that my traditional methods will continue to work just fine for me. again- I am not cold calling anyone--- virtually everyone who calls me is already to a certain extent presold-- they have some previous connection to me--either personally or through a previous customer. As I have said many times before-- I am not a salesman-- I don't WANT to make as many sales as possible---sales is a minor part of what I do and an inconvienience. I deliberately and consciously limmit the number of jobs I will do-- I have a specific target each year---which makes my work, I guess, a limmited commodity---- it's actually counter productive for me to sell OVER and beyond my target amount. I understand as a professional salesman-- this way of thinking is counter to what you are used to--- but you are just going to have to accept that it works well for me.
refining this approach( and increasing prices) is what moved me over the years from closing1/5 to closing 1/3--and then to 2/5 and then for the past several years 5/10 If I return to your method-- I am going to be right back at about 1/3
if I want to do 30 projects a year of a certain size--- I need to write about 60 proposals but using your method--------- means I go back to writing 90 to net
30-- which I find counter productive and un-pleasant--- more unpaid work--less money, less time for dog walking,less time for bike riding, less time for working on my own house----- just not a direction I want to go in. but-- I admidt-- it aint for everyone---- and I doubt it would work-in say kitchen remodeling.
stephen
I accept that it works for you.. but really are you everyone? Say a young start up contractor with a load of debt and zero backlog of work?
frenchy-- i have never said it would work for everyone---- in fact many many times i have outlined situations where I wouldn't be able to do it but i can also look at what you propose-- and see situations where THAT is going to be counter productive as wellstephen
Maybe I missed or forgot your first class.I agree on selling value.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To increase the odds of your being "liked" you need to improve the way you communicate with them.. take it or leave it is more likely to get you eliminated than having them select thier priorites..
They like me.
I dont portray the take it or leave it but send the message that less money means less features and I usually give them some choices on what to skinny up on so that they can get the most of what they are looking for for the money.
I'm one of the only steady general contractors in the area according to the trade contractors I talk to
I count my blessings and keep on working it.
Sell the sizzle, not the steak.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
who ever first said that is 100% wrong.
sell both.
make the steak sizzle.
I learned to sell from a guy who sold carpet cleaning ...
and he'd actually get U, me and the customer excited about getting their carpets clean!
He was amazing ... some performance to see live. Very entertaining ...
and we were selling carpet cleaning for god's sake!
he made the steak sizzle ... while selling the steak.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The scary part about selling the sizzle is that too often the anticipation is greater than the reward. That leaves customers with unfulfilled expectations and that is a lousy place to be when it comes to getting referals..
This business is based on referals.. it is and should be a contractors bread and butter..
However you are correct in that you can't sell 2x4's. You need to sell the desert before you can sell the meat and potatoes. Here's where carefully listening to the customer first pays off.. If they are already sold on the desert you can start right in on the meat and potatoes. (refer back to the desert occasionally to ensure you haven't lost interest)..
good point.... managing expectations has a lot to do with wether or not the customer is going to be satisfied in the end..
and will give you positive recommendations i the futureie: never promise a higher degree of quality tan you intend or are able to deliverMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Frenchy, nice thread, but stupid title. I opened it only out of curiosity and boredom.
Anyway,
The scary part about selling the sizzle is that too often the anticipation is greater than the reward. That leaves customers with unfulfilled expectations and that is a lousy place to be when it comes to getting referals..
A story from a friend of mine....
He was the foreman and partner of a company that does epoxy flooring on concrete. His partner did the sales and had the bad habit of overselling the sizzle. On one job, doing a large airplane hanger, the salesman made a comment to the owner how his floor would shine, and he'd see his reflection in it. My friend and his crew did an excellent job, but when the owner looked at his new floor, he couldn't see his reflection, and was disappointed.
The job turned out exactly as it should have, but the salesman had oversold the sizzle and as a result left a disgruntled customer, who let other hanger owners know about it.
Bowz
Since you know about lumens, I'll drop this little tid-bit.
Project I'm working on now, I got an LED array from a major manufacturer for prototyping, along with a frequency-shifting optic from another man.
152 lumens per watt, officially documented in our integrating sphere Monday.
Cheap incandescent is ~9 lumens/watt.
Forrest - getting to play with the fun stuff
New technology is so exciting isn't it? That's one of the great things.. Further it's a prospect for future sales..
Sell the new lites and who knows where that will lead.. Wouldn't be the first house torn down to put in a new sound system..
Ot of couriosity does the new LED array expect the same long life as has been traditonal?
This particular array quotes 40,000 hours, until it dims down to 70% brightness - a bit less than the 50K that most LEDs are quoting.
Stated LED lifetimes are just that - L-70. Could be several hundred thousand hours until they fade away completely!
Nice monologue. As an exclamation point I offer as an example my personal experience. I teach at a well known university in OH. I work in the department of architecture and interior design. A good percentage of the design work students do here is top notch in comparison to other well known design institutions of similar size and scope. So what we try to drill home time and again, is that the most elegant design will go unnoticed or sit on the sidelines unless the student has prepared their presentation and can speak with confidence and fortitude when presenting. In fact the students are strongly encouraged to fit in public speaking courses into their busy schedules. And as I've seen time and again a good presenter fares a much better chance of selling a mediocre project than a poor presenter has of selling a well designed project.
That is why I am so expensive... because I am so smart.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Frenchy, I stole a line from Captan Sully today. He's the guys that landed the plane in the Hudson. He said something similar today on Good Morning America.
I told the client today "Everyday for the last 35 years, I've deposited little bits of experience into my savings account. When I design your addition, I'll make a major withdrawl and put all that experience to work for you!".
I almost cracked up saying it.
my dad was a professional artist-------- our summer vacations where generally driving around the country so he could paint on location one day we are in Yellowstone camping--- dad is set up with an easel in a meadow painting a stream---------- hiker comes by-watches dad for a while---- and asks him" how long did it take you to learn to do that?" dad pulls out his pocket watch--looks at it-- and says" 53 years"stephen
That's similar to the farmer who when asked if he'd lived here all his life answered, Not yet!
I like that, frankly due to Capt. Sully's skill and fame I'd attribute the quote. That should get the customer thinking about what happens if.....
One point I would like to make and maybe it's wasted.. Maybe I'm misreading what you said earlier if so I will apologize.. However please don't base your selling approach only on Zig Zigler.
That's fine but Zigler's approach is to "talk" someone into a sale. Many times cusomers are already ready to buy and a sales approach dedicated to Zigler's approach is counter productive and may actaully cost you the sale.
There is another book you need to read to get a good balance to Zigler's approach.. It's called Shut Up and Sell.
It allows you to get on with the business of selling when you're actually the one standing in the way of a successful close..
Too many salesmen have diarea of the brain running off at the mouth.. We're all set for our objections and try to head them off in the way we phrase our questions..
The problem with that apporach is that weare so busy anticipation what a person might say and forming a effective rebuttale that we actually fail to really hear and understand what they are really saying.
For example. We anticipate the that's too expensive objection and we gear ourselves up to answering that. What we miss is the customers real fear is fear of the unknown, not the price. By making the price a focus he will take his lead from us and focus on the price still leaving his real objection hidden. So no matter what price we have we still haven't dealt with the real reason for his reluctance to sign..
"
I like that, frankly due to Capt. Sully's skill and fame I'd attribute the quote. That should get the customer thinking about what happens if....."
YeS! Thats perfect. I won't feel guilty stealing the line but it will make the point!
" For example. We anticipate the that's too expensive objection and we gear ourselves up to answering that."
Good Point.
Zig tells us to assume the sale and if our prices are indeed higher, be prepared to justify them with superior benefits.
I will go dig up the Shut up and Sell book but I don't think you can accuse Zig of not teaching people to shut up and sell.
Blue I grew up using Ziglers techniques..
Once I understood the full reality of the shut up and sell approach my close ratio went up dramatically.
It's not that you don't say anything,, it's that you carefully listen to your customers rather than try to think ahead of them.
Do you repeat word for word any objection back to your customers?
Very critical!
It signifies to the customer that you really are listening to them and sometimes when they hear the objection themselves already have a workable solution..
If not it at least signifies to the customer that they are being takenseriously and you are concerned about the customer rather than attempting to steam roll over any objections.
Your handling of the objection is most likely the same but since you took the time to repeat the objection word for word the customer now sees you as more of a consultant that a salesman..
Let me give you an example..
Customer: I would buy it but your price is too high.
Salesman; Let me make sure I understand your objection. You're saying you are ready to buy it but you feel the price is too high?
Customer; exactly
Salesman; So we have nothing keeping you from signing the deal other than the price, is that correct?
Customer; Yes!
Salesman; OK how would you suggest we lower our price? Are you willing to accept a cheaper product?
Customer; NO!
Salesman; Do you want us to rush through and maybe not do as good a job?
Customer: Well No....
Salesman; Materials and labor are the only componants that are adjustable, they really are the only componants I'm charging your for..
Customer; Well you could take less profit.
Salesman: How much less profit should I make, come to think of it how much profit do you think I make now?
Customer; Well about 10%
Salesman; Would you be willing to have me work on a time and material basis and then we add 10% to that? That's not a good deal for you.. there is no motivation to do it quicker simply to come in under budget. Trial close....
more !...... more !Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore