I’m used to seeing bathrooms where all the fixtures are in the same room, maybe with a dividing partial wall blocking direct view of the W/C. Lately I’m seeing people putting the W/C in its own room within the bathroom. I draw it one way and they draw the lines back in. Full walls and a door. Are they just privacy freaks or am I missing something. Extra expense for framing. Extra space requirements. Possibly extra venting. I don’t get it…you go in, you lock the door, and that’s that. What am I missing?
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Replies
Cloud, I think that is the new thing and completely agree with you as I had my house framed that way! And after putting in another vent, plus additional electrical and for the size of this "special" room which is smaller than a closet, I'm thinking, why the hell did I bother? Sure, maybe a partition or something, but a "room" dedicating the WC? I think I will have to practically straddle the toilet to close the door (haven't put the doors in yet). A pocket door would have been better, but wasn't going to work as I had the dang switches for the fan and light in the only wall I could put them in.
Yeah, hindsight being 20/20...oh well. And yeah, I don't see the privacy issue holding water as especially masterbathrooms going with the double shower heads and such. Question; you going to design another "room" for the bidet too? <g>
" What am I missing?"
Graffitte!
At least in the stalls in public restrooms you have interesting reading on the back of the door.
Do see any reason at all to get in to a small closet.
I think most people envision the master bath being used by two people at the same time. It's my understanding that holding your nose while applying makeup can complicate the application so wives seek to stick the husbands, with their novel reading length john sessions, in a "separate room" within the room.
It's cheaper than separate toilet and dressing rooms and you don't have to wait for the room to become available if you just need to brush your teeth or something.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I don't think they're a bad idea if you have the space.
In a master bath, there are thing DW does that I'd prefer not to witness. (Let's not get into specifics)
Sometimes I don't want company or witnesses when I'm...............Meditating on the throne.
In family/hall baths, the separate "throne room" can be useful - Especially if you have both boys and girls. One can use the can whiler the other is brushing their teeth.
A lot of it is family habits. I had a lady in the office one discussing the floor plan of a house they were building. The subject turned to pocket doors - They had one on the master bath. I mentioned something to the effect that I didn't particularly like them, and they didn't last as long as a conventional door.
She said: "Oh, it doesn't matter - I never close the door when I go to the bathroom anyway".
I could've done without knowing that...................(-:
Q. Why do blondes get confused in the bathroom?
A. They have to pull their own pants down.
I'm with you all the way on this one Cloud. There are so many 'prettier' ways of doing it with some planning and forethought. When I reconfigured the back end of our house in Little Rock I placed the Loo in a corner 'sort of' behind the glass block shower, a sense of privacy without the claustraphobia. Remember to build a magazine rack into the wall so you can return again and again to the latest FHB!
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Personally I don't even like to look at a watercloset when I go in the bathroom .... unless that's why I go there (grin). In our remodel project we had the space to plan for the WC to be in a separate partitioned area next to the vanity but I don't envision putting a door on it. If I did, it would be something like an obscure glass shower door with a large undercut and open from door head ht at the top to the ceiling for ventilation.
There's just the two of us in the house now with the kids gone and even with a second bathroom on the upper level, separation of church & state (up to you to determine which fixture, shower or toilet belongs to which -hehe-) is a nice design touch if nothing else. If someone wants a separate space for their WC, after all, it's their house. Those of us that grew up with a two or three holer in the back yard can somehow relate! -hahahaha-
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Contrary opinion.
I first saw this in Europe several years ago and was impressed that bathing activity didn't have to stop just because someone was sitting on the throne.
I went ahead and included a seperate "toilet room" in our renovation because:
1) Since it was a renovation of an enormous old house, we had the room to play with;
2) There are indeed things I don't need to see & hear in a relationship.
We went one step further and included a small sink in the toilet room for hand washing. The bathroom ends up being a place for bathing; the toilet room is a place for, well, you know....
I promote that regularly in designs. I agree, someone taking a 1/2 hr bath should not preclude others from using the W/C. I always put a sink with the W/C for hand washing. That's why I'm less fond of the room w/in a room and extra doors concept.
Many of us "wealthy first world" folks can rationalize anything! (I know I can!)
Let's all consume to our hearts desire! Maybe a little desk in the extra little room, too... You know, to write out the check for the donation to an environmental group and thereby help stop the destruction of the planet. :)
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Edited 7/25/2003 4:00:53 PM ET by Hasbeen
Any self respecting environmentalist would include a composting toilet in her/his "little room"! (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
WaterCLOSET!!! I guess it depends on your usage. I would definitely have a separate room if I could, but we are an 'everybody in there in the same time' sort of family due to our house. It is small enough that the entire bathroom could be considered a closet, and there is no separate master. It sure would be nice to brush my teeth without standing on my husband's toes while he meditates. As for resource usage, I think that having an extra wall + door is certainly more space conservative than having an extra sink outside the bath. Plus the cost of that extra plumbing seems out there for a minor convenience, but the cost of framing a little partition wall and door is pretty small and only adds an extra 4 inches to the space needed. And as for full wall vs. partial, well if you are going to frame part of it, why not do the whole thing? Getting a little graphic, I'd like the sound and odor attenuation. As a side benefit of the extra wall, you get more space for cabinetry floor to ceiling.
So, I can see it as a real benefit for small homes that don't have 1 bathroom per customer, or for folks that don't have big giant bathrooms but would like some privacy. In general, women spend more time at the vanity than men, while men spend more time on the throne than women, so these activities can be simultaneous yet still allow a certain privacy.
Ive sen that in a lot of older homes. From what ive read it is making a come back. I now I would do it if I had the room
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
The funny thing is, the reason this has been so popular in Europe is that many homes only have one bathroom, so it allows a family of four or five to use the same space while providing privacy. It's funny the way it's been translated into a must-have to for four bedroom, 3.5 bath houses. Bathrooms have become so fancy in the higher-end homes that a w.c. seems out of place!
The thing I loved about these in Europe was that everyone, it seemed, hung a calendar on the back of the door. This was great! You never forgot your anniversary, because you'd see the date once or twice a day.
On the other hand, maybe they did that so folks could keep track of how long they were in there! If you're using a calendar instead of a watch, eat more fiber!
>many homes only have one bathroom
That definitely factors in. The recent plans that were dropped in my lap to fix up had 3 1/2 baths in 3000 sf. There were 25 doors in that space. Every full bath had a separate throne room. I just cannot imagine that much conflict for use of the facilities.
With one bathroom, I understand...
Gosh- now I'm starting to feel defensive about a feature of my house that I really like.
It seems that this non-traditional feature is being portrayed as yet another example of conspicuous consumption for its own sake- when I did it because it seemed to be a good idea with minimal additional cost- as I said, we had more than enough room in a renovation of an existing old, large house. Sq ft already existed, same # of fixtures plus one small sink, a door, a fistfull of studs, and maybe 6 sheets of drywall. Add a light and split the Fantech fan to cover both rooms, and we're still less than $1000 additional.
Dome homes are certainly non-traditional - but that doesn't make them bad; nor does it make those who build them horrible people.
=====Zippy=====
Good gosh, my comments weren't meant to make you feel bad. No one should feel bad about the choices they make for their castle. One's not more right than the other. I just didn't get the interest in it. And I'm sitting here trying to squeeze 3500 sf of stuff in a 3000 sf space and I spot those rooms and just know I could reclaim 30 sf or so, but client won't let me.......so I asked what people thought. Truth be told, it didn't even enter my head as a sign of conspicuous consumerism.....I wondered if people were just becoming more prudish or something. So I've now learned why people choose that, and I'm smarter for it. Please, I truely hope you enjoy your throne room to it's fullest! :)
And in honor of throne rooms everywhere, a poem...
Some come here to sit and think
Some come here to #### and stink
I come here to scratch my ####
and read the bs on the walls
"I'm sitting here trying to squeeze 3500 sf of stuff in a 3000 sf space and I spot those rooms and just know I could reclaim 30 sf or so..."
I can appreciate your difficulty. But instead of trying to squeeze out tiny areas (you'd need 16 of these little rooms eliminated to accomplish your goal), go for where the true wasted space is.
Does an empty nester really need 4 or more bedrooms and 3 1/2 + baths? Do they need that huge kitchen with dual dishwashers and walkin refrigerators? And the second living room (oft called family room) - what real purpose does it serve? The first living room itself measures 1200 sq ft, why?
My wife gets transferred from time to time. We end up shopping for a decent home more often than most. Now it's just the two of us, plus whatever guests we get. And we're not poor. We want something elegant, comfortable, practical. In the area of 600 to 900K.
The crap we see during our searches disgusts me. And it gets worse as you go up the price ladder.
Needless flamboyancy. 5, 6 bedrooms? Soaring ceilings with massive walls of windows - facing northwest or due south with a view of their neighbors vinyl siding, EIPS, or boxed in chimney chase. On and on. Basically there seems to be the design concept that more expensive needs to translate into more cubic footage.
Being a financial planner and knowing what various people make and the composition of their families, there seems to be a major disconnect between reality and fantasy. Commonly people with higher incomes and net worths are older - their families have or are near to being on their own. Yet these homes are designed for people with new quintuplets. (There's a huge supply of those ;^).)
I get the impression these type of houses are destined to become either group homes for subsequent owner/investors or torn down. Neither seems compatible with their neighborhoods. Which tells me little thought has been given to the house's lifespan - only to what can make the builder / designer a buck today.
The "entertainment" concept commonly comes into play during the rationalization of such beasts. What entertainment? As social as my wife and I should be, perhaps 2 to 3 times a year we have people over.
Or the "guest" concept. We actually do have of out of town visitors several times a year. But most of these visitors would rather stay in a hotel where they can behave more freely without fear of bothering their hosts. We could easily pay for all of our guests hotel bills for the next 30 years for what the additional capital outlay is for the additional guest rooms, baths, and mechanicals in these bloated monstrosities.
And seemingly every one of these huge "beige boxes" has painted mdf trim, hollow core paint grade interior doors, vinyl windows, cheep cabinetry, etc.
In essence, I believe these spaces are not comfortable or inviting. They're cold. Both literally and figuratively.
However, during these home searches, I've come across a new method to eliminate wasted time touring someone else's mistakes. I now have the R.E. agent do a search on smaller sq footages (2000 to no more than 3000), having the highest cost per sq foot. It may sound like a bassackwards method, but I've found it to provide the best results for us. In these, I find the most creative use of space, the nicest detail, and the best curb appeal. And the first thing visitors say is, "this is the most cozy home I've ever seen."
And the master bedrooms have their own throne room. It provides the wife with the privacy she wants and keeps my "aroma" restrained.
But I'm really interested in what you design guys hear from these "nouveaux rich," and why the future homeowner is specifying all of this extra space. Why? Why do you let them do this to you? Do they really understand that overproviding for their kids now will create the likelihood of unrealistic expectations in their kids futures? And likely failure within their children to achieve those expectations, thus crippling them in some emotional or financial fashion? Let alone the continually increasing cost of maintenance down the road?
My nearsighted take is that the future in home design lies with smaller, elegant and more practical buildings. I believe the social or religious pressure to have large families will wain. Especially when one considers that the primary family's wealth today will be diluted when passed on to their heirs, thus leaving insufficient assets to carry the cost of keeping up their parents mistake.
"However, during these home searches, I've come across a new method to eliminate wasted time touring someone else's mistakes. I now have the R.E. agent do a search on smaller sq footages (2000 to no more than 3000), having the highest cost per sq foot. It may sound like a bassackwards method, but I've found it to provide the best results for us. In these, I find the most creative use of space, the nicest detail, and the best curb appeal. And the first thing visitors say is, "this is the most cozy home I've ever seen.""
Have you read Sarah S's Not So Small Homes. That is what she talks about. I think the first example is someone moving out of 5000 sq ft home because it was so sterle into a 2500 sq ft one.
"I believe the social or religious pressure to have large families will wain. Especially when one considers that the primary family's wealth today will be diluted when passed on to their heirs, thus leaving insufficient assets to carry the cost of keeping up their parents mistake."
WHAT!
Are you talking about today's society or an agrian (sp?) society 150 years ago.
I don't see any pressure for large families and what is the average 1 3/4 kids with a dog <G>.
And I don't see the kids inheriting the family "estate" to living in either.
Typically by the time that comes the kids are in their 40-60's and have there own homes (but there are alwasy the expection <G>).
Sorry if you took my post to be aimed at you personally. It wasn't. And as I said, I can rationalize anything. ;)Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
The term WC is British and meant "the separate room" for just such an occasion...smaller room= smaller fan...in older Victorian/Queen Anne/Bungalows around Vancouver here, most have/had WC's which were just wide enough to walk in (with room for reading material)) and more than a few WERE labelled or signed...Library! Cheers, Phil "Not reporting from the library" EvesIf it is to be.... 'twil be done by me.
We have the toilet bowl in a little room in the bathroom, with it's own exhaust fan and all.
Having taken care of two older people in wheelchairs for several years, that was a headache, to get the wheelchair close enough at the door and then try to transfer them to the "throne" in one piece, without dropping them on the way or hitting the walls too hard.
If you set "it" on a separate room, don't forget to have enough room to get to it in any situation that may happen, even the simple broken leg that sticks out at an odd angle.
I went thru ten houses in our local Parade of Homes and saw one of those rooms with a 2' door, where a heavy person could not have been squeezed thru!
Good idea to have a separate room for that, if you can make it big enough to be accessible at all times. Following Handicap Access bathroom rules of a 3' door and 5' around three sides will do it.
Do men really spend more time on the throne? Seems that women sit down there a lot more often than men.
Maybe there's a government study somewhere out there.... ;)Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I agree, Hasbeen. That surprised me, too. Wanna have your perspective on things bathroom-related change--hang around a 5 yo. She always asks us to join her in the bathroom......and to see the faces she makes with her lack of inhabition...too funny...
two completely different reasons for this from my POV.
I have a separator in the main floor bathroom, which was the only bathroom for a couple of years. My daughter could take her hour to apply makeup at the vanity sink while I could relax in the 'Library' or take a nice hot shower without steaming up her mirror. That's the practicle side of things. My wife liked the fact that when guests come, the door to the throne can be left closed for apearance sake while the decorative vanity area can be sighted and found easily. This arrangement saved money on two bathrooms pending completion...
I also have some high end customers who are fanatical about things like cleanliness and privacy. I do think there is a certain sense of propriety amoung some people about this according to the way they were raised and educated. I think some go overboard with it, but as designers, we need to listen to customers and how they live to design an envelope that firs around their lifestyle, regardless of our own opinions.
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, but that's what makes Breaktime so much fun....I can always come here and bitch, and then go back and make it the way they want it.
;)
Yeah, until you look up and see them looking over your virtual shoulder!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I love the idea of a seperate room for the WC,but there really should be a basin in the same room. There is no one here that can honestly say there hasn't been at least once that they should have washed their hands before they touched the doorknob.
Edited 7/27/2003 12:39:08 PM ET by rich1
For better or worse, I believe the idea of a separate door/room for the W/C is a European concept. Spent some time working offshore and the rigs that were designed/built in Europe all had separate rooms for the W/C, American ones an open design. Different customs and standards about privacy I reckon. Bidets are another area of difference.
Hi, I'm new to this forum. and lemme add my two cents worth.
The idea that the toilet and the tub should be located in the same room was probably created out of the necessity for indoor plumbing efficiency and cost. Before the days of indoor plumbing these two functions were not necessarily in close proximity. The Romans, for instance, had them separated into baths and latrines.
I have seen toilets and baths in the same room in Europe, but the Japanese are pretty strict about keeping toilet and bath separate, and this is mainly out of cultural notions of purity, cleanliness, etc. They usually have only one bath, on the first floor, but there might be a toilet on each floor of a typical three story house.
I grew up in a house like that, with four teenage girls and a dad all getting ready for school/work at the same time it saved a lot of time.
When DH and I were building this house it seemed like a natural solution as I like to take hour long soaks in the tub. Our's has its own small vanity with sink and a large collection of most of Taunton's publications (FG,FHB,FW,FC and Threads)
Now I want a WC on the main floor. We are both getting older so wheel chair accessabilty seems like the next logical step.
Kelly
Here's a shot of a separate WC with downsized sink and counter from Japanese maker Inax. I think this is ordinarily implemented in space that is about 34 inches wide (too narrow for my liking, but that is the post and beam structure talking). List price for this little ensemble is about $1500.
View Image