Replies

1. 
   Sbds | Aug 08, 2011 06:01pm | #1

   Septic, not fun

     This question comes up every few months. You will get answers from people who say they have not pumped their system in 20 years. That’s fine for them but has no bearing on your system.

   The only way to compare pumping annually and not is if you had two houses next to each other, with the same systems and the same number of people with the same habits.

   The argument I use for pumping the system is that it is simply the least expensive insurance you can buy.

   People will often complain about paying two, three or four thousand dollars a year to insure a twenty, thirty or forty thousand-dollar auto.

   A septic system can run anywhere from ten thousand to fifty thousand to replace and with environmental laws changing every year, even more. If your septic system goes out it can in turn affect the value of your home.

   For one hundred dollars a year you can insure a system valued as much as forty thousand and connected to a very expensive house. That’s quite a deal.

   Many of the houses in my area are in flood zones and if your septic fails and is condemned you can be looking at a monster of a bill. You can even run the risk of having the C of O pulled from your house. One house had to have so much work done because of new environmental laws that a new system cost sixty thousand dollars and the house was valued at four hundred thousand.  I bet that owner would now not think one hundred dollars a year was a bad deal. 

1. 
   Metrowest | Aug 08, 2011 06:58pm | #2

   Septic Fun Keeps On Giving

   Sbds, thanks for your kind reply and info.  I have learned to not be penny wise.  But this is a tough one.  Your information is more than helpful, not only because I know only so much about septics.  I'm not shopping for the answer I want to hear (No no you don't need to spend a nickel because it's all bull) and I won't throw it all back in your face.

   As comparisons go, I can draw something from the guy across the street: one adult always alone, w/one adult roommate some yrs.  Nothing scientific but we compared notes on what's underground and it's the same design.  Size is similar; installation, who knows.  Before we bought a couple was here 12 yrs with 2 kids under 12.  A couple other families of 3 to 5 preceded them.

   The screw-the-whole-thing attitude is bad, but in Holliston, it can be very bad.  We knew the water table was high from day 0.  Seepage was regular in the 1946-technology basement, and once the addition in 2004 drew little water away from the seams, we did the Pioneer basement scene.  It runs very little in dry times, and it works.

   Nevertheless, if the geology info is correct, we and said neighbor are on the bank of a subterranean river that always flows.  The crap-outta-luck guy is one house across and over from us.  He got the geologist because he's had FEET of water in his basement--standing--for over 10 yrs.  A wading pool in his side yard a while after every good rain. 

   We tried to get the sewer deal through but, well, town meeting.  We would have been in the sewer sector.  The oldest part, the village, is a mess, as they don't have room for T 5 level septic replacement.  Some of those were failing long ago.  And that neighborhood overlaps, yes, with Mudville, which had its name for a reason well before Casey (may have) batted there. 

   I've put forth local septic and water table info that would seem to hugely underline the case for sticking with what has passed for a maintenance plan.  The question remains: When do we reach the why-bother zone?

   We started with $100 a pump, it crawled up, then jumped.  Last pump was up to $230 (June 2010).  Septic guy may be entirely right about the pumping needed to keep up with the rising level.  And maybe his volume price is too high.  But can someone answer the zillion-dollar question: is our "system" very likely to fail anyway?

   I heard of 60 large for a T 5 system to make a sale--15 yrs ago.  We don't want to go all stupid and be out 100 large to stay or sell, but throwing money down because the best information is prices, well, that's not all brainy.  I don't want to pay 400 or 4 large a year to insure something that has only the slightest grip on living another 5 yrs.  I think there has to a more complete answer about what we are up against or not in our specific case.

   Thanks for your help.  I'm going to gather as much info as I can so as to be able to make the best decision soon.

2. 
   DanH | Aug 08, 2011 08:46pm | #3

   I replied once, but the reply fell into a hole in the internet.

   You really can't tell, especially with a system so old, with an unknown configuration.  (We don't even know if it has a leach field or instead is a "cesspool", eg.)

   But the real issue is that this system is 60+ years old.  It should have been replaced about 20 years ago.  It's likely already "broken", but you don't know it, because the sewage is flowing out in a way that isn't apparent above ground.  But if not, it's going to break any day now.

   Start saving up for a new system (which will, of course, have to meet new codes, so at a very minimum a large leach field will be required, possibly larger than the available space).

1. 
   [email protected] | Aug 09, 2011 03:08pm | #4

   Maybe it's close to failure

   A properly desinged and installed system that is 60+ years old could still be fine if has been maintained. 

   A well designed and installed leach field would have used vitrified clay tile pipe, which will last virtually forever, unless it is physically impacted, or the earth moves around it.  Properly bedded in gravel it will last centuries. 

   The concrete tank is the most likely problem.  And the OP didn't mention any issues there. 

   I'd recommend the yearly pumping.  Because, if the solids get forced into the leach field and clog it up, the sytem is shot.  Other than that a septic system should last for ever. 

   I'd recommend adding RidX or one of the other biologic spores, or even brewers yeast to the system at least once a month. 

1. 
   Metrowest | Aug 09, 2011 06:20pm | #6

   Thank you

   Thanks, JnF.  Balanced perspective; very helpful.  The only thing I've heard--and seen with my own eyes--is that the conccrete cylinder tank has been fuller the past 2 yrs.  The flow is supposedly still fine; septic man replaced the tee and did no other work in addition to the pumping, and said, Just pump this thing once a year.

2. 
   DanH | Aug 09, 2011 07:07pm | #7

   Yeah, the clay tile will last forever, but not the soil around it.  It gets clogged.  And concrete deteriorates.  Don't know about stuff from the 50s, but a lot of concrete from the 40s was especially bad.

   RidX and brewer's yeast do no good.

1. 
   [email protected] | Aug 09, 2011 08:14pm | #8

   Bacteria are essential

   A healthy colony of bacteria is essential.  RidX, brewers yeast, or other bacteria sources won't usually help a failed system.  But, they can help keep a functioning one up and running.

   The increased use of antibacterial everything, form laundry detergent to shampoo, can have a very detrimental effect on septic systems.  I started having folks add brewers yeast and ridx to the septic system once a month on the systems I'm responsible for two summers ago.  It does seem to have made a difference on the volume of solids needing removal when we pump them. 

   And, a system that is working correctly has very few solids entering the leach field. 

2. 
   Metrowest | Aug 09, 2011 06:16pm | #5

   Thanks, Dan.  I got both of your posts.  Very useful info that puts me in a much better position to plan things.

3. 
   junkhound | Aug 09, 2011 11:30pm | #9

   40+ years and counting, never been pumped

   The yearly pumping is a crock, good only for the pumpers pocketbook.   UNLESS you use a garbage disposal, then all bets are off.   IMO, folks on septic with a garbage disposal are in a world of hurt sooner or later.

   Maybe a pumping every 10 years for 2 folks with your small 4 ft dia tank for just bath, shower, toilet, sink normal waste.  

   Installed my own 1200 gal 2 compartment septic 40 years ago, have NEVER pumped it, only 3" of sludge in the bottom. 4-5 people for 25 of those years.

   About every 10 years the toilet paper residue floating on the top may need to be shoveled off, but you can DIY that with a shovel and wheelbarrow and fertilize the garden for next year - best done in late fall when it wont stink too bad <G> - dont ask how I know that.....

   Ya know what the interesting thing about shoveling the cellulose off the top of your own tank is?  You get to find out how often your kids had a boy/girlfriend over when you were not home and what brand condoms they used.......

1. 
   gfretwell | Aug 10, 2011 02:00pm | #10

   I would pay someone $100 to shovel off the cellulose and bury it, the rest of the pump job is free.

2. 
   Scott | Aug 12, 2011 01:41am | #11

   >>>You get to find out how

   >>>You get to find out how often your kids had a boy/girlfriend over when you were not home and what brand condoms they used.......

   Art, you are the saltiest ol' dawg ever; and it sounds like your kids are takin' after.

   Of course this is written by a dad with pre-teen kids.

   Five years from now I might find myself thanking you for the sage advice.  ;-)

4. 
   JimB | Aug 13, 2011 04:39pm | #12

   The system could last a long time

   Over  the last 25 years evaluated sites and designed literally thousands of  onsite sewage systems for both new and failing systems.  I've seen systems 80+ years old that were still functioning fine.  There are some general rules of thumb about how long a system will last, but it really depends on the site conditions, the design of the particular system, how well it was installed, how it's been used and how well it's been maintained.  Although a few people will say that maintenance is a waste, something that I've heard a lot is "I don't know why this is giving me problems now.  The system's been in 20 years and I never even had to have it pumped."  I

   Of course, I can't judge your particular system, and I'm not sure from your description what exactly you have.  Cylindrical septic tanks are fairly rare, so you may have a perforated concrete cylinder surrounded by gravel that functions as a sort of dual purpose septic tank/leach pit.  In that case, at the age of the system, it's likely that the surrounding soil is staring to significantly clog.    That sounds likely to me based on the comment that the septic tank is fuller than it was the last time it was pumped.  A real septic tank, that is followed by a drainfield fills up within a few days and stays full--unless it cracks and starts to leak.  If you are having it pumped every 12 to 18 months just because it sounds like a good idea, you are likely pumping it more often than necessary.  Every five years is a typcial rule of thumb.  If you're pumping it every 12 to 18 months because you have a problem that often, you might want to think about saving up for new system.

   But until you have a problem with sewage on the ground or backing up into the house, your best bet is probably to continue to have the system pumped periodically.  As far as additives go, there aren't any studies that prove they help, but there also is nothing to indicate that they do any harm.

   You could get a local septic system designer to evaluate the system, determine any obvious problems and provide at least a general idea of the cost of replacement.  That's really the only way to figure out the most cost effective option.