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septic under my porch

todd | Posted in Construction Techniques on May 7, 2005 06:00am

Heard a story that the former owner of my 30’s home (now remodeled) was a mean drunk. Made his children crawl under an attached deck to dig out access to septic. About 2.5′ clearance from grade.

I am converting the deck to a covered porch. Actually rebuilding is a better description. Digging pier hole and sure enough I hit the tank. Whoever located it right next to the house should be shot.

Just happended a few minutes ago and I’m feeling a little bamboozled here. Thinking of this scenario (no inspections required):

1. Tank stays where it is.

2. Locate tank access and build trap door into porch floor.

3. Prior to floor installation, run a new length drain beyond porch perimeter, mark ends, figure to use this line if/when new septic is required.

Sound logical?

One other question, though think I know the answer. Any slick tricks to locating lid? Machine excavation very difficult…arg.

Todd

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  1. User avater
    ProDek | May 07, 2005 06:48pm | #1

    The guys that pump those things know exactly where the two lids are that have  to be removed for pumping, which should be done about every five years.

    I hate to be the first to tell you this but you are not legally supposed to build within 10' of a septic tank. That is normally the distance they put them from the house around here in the Northwest.

    The tank holds all the sludge and normally will go out to a distribution box that splits the systems fluids to the yard. The tank lids are about 12" under the ground so you won't smell any fumes, so if you were to put trap doors they would have to be large enough for the septic guy to dig the dirt off of the lid.

    I'm thinking you might want to take a long vacation when he pumps your tank though because the fumes are going to be pretty horrendous in an enclosed porch.

    Septic guys find lids like the have X-ray vision or something, Call them and have your tank pumped first...........

    "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

    1. todd | May 07, 2005 08:41pm | #2

      Thanks for the reply, Pro-Dek,I think the sequence went 1)house, 2)septic right next to house and 3)deck over top of septic. Rural area...folks do a lot of funny stuff and sneak replacements in at night rather than do sand mounds.The plot thickens a little. Talked to neighbor who was hanging with mean drunk when present tank was put in. Neighbor said that the owner ran the septic discharge to daylight (maybe 50') rather that excavate a proper drainage field. If that's not bad enough, I had some excavation done and I'm sure the daylight pipe is now covered up. I moved in only a couple months ago, betcha the tank is already getting full with liquids. Sounds like getting the tank pumped is the least of my worries.Sigh,
      Todd

      1. User avater
        goldhiller | May 08, 2005 06:44am | #4

        Hopefully that septic tank isn't a 1940 Chevy coupe. A few years back, we took on a large remodel at a rural house that had just changed hands. We were aware that a new septic tank had been installed just prior to the sale. Clear to be seen, too. So we're there about 5 days or so when the new owner comes out that morning to inform us that he had "water" backin' up in the basement. We go to investigate which shortly leads us out to the site of the new septic tank. We shovel some dirt to uncover the lid. Sure enough, tank is more than full. The local septic suckin' service is called. Empties tank. Then he drops himself down in with a flashlight. (Better him than me) No outlet to drainfields. In fact......no drainfields for this tank at all and no viable drainfields on the premises that one could connect to. Shid hit the fan then. Seller was forced to rectify the situation at his expense.Why he thought he could get away with such an arrangement in the first place is a mystery. Just plain dumb, I guess.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

        1. User avater
          Dinosaur | May 08, 2005 08:09am | #5

          There is a septic system approved for use up here on lots too small to install a legally-compliant weeping field. It's called periodic pumping.

          Some of the older summer chalets built back in the 50s and early 60s had outhouses as the only facilities. A fair number of these places have had 'midnight' septic systems installed since that time; usually a 125-gallon steel drum buried with an outlet pipe running to a 5x5x5 hole filled with gravel and rock. When I run into one of these now, I make sure the owner is sitting down before I give him the bad news....

          10 years ago, provincial and local regulations were still relatively easy to comply with, but since then the rules have gotten so tight that if you don't have at least a half-acre of good, permeable soil, you're looking at either a sealed (periodic pump) tank or something like a peat-bale sump where you have to change out the bales every 6-8 years. We're talking 8-9 grand initial cost plus installation, and a couple of grand every 6-8 years. Plus sludge pumping every two years required by law....

          Well, I can't complain; I drink that lake in my back yard and I don't want somebody on the other side of it flushing their pee into my coffeepot....

            

          Dinosaur

          A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

          But it is not this day.

          1. User avater
            goldhiller | May 08, 2005 05:17pm | #7

            Yup. Am familiar with those peat bale tanks. Nice option for folks lacking the necessary ground to install a new conventional drainfield when the existing one(s) have been exhausted. And those peat systems were approved for use here about three years ago, IIRC.Are you familiar with or have you seen any of these in operation yet?http://www.clearstreamsystems.comLooks interesting, if not promising."I don't want somebody on the other side of it flushing
            their pee into my coffeepot...."You're not a big believer in the health benefits of drinking urine then? <G>Oh yeah........that's supposed to be your own urine, isn't it? Never mind.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

          2. User avater
            Dinosaur | May 08, 2005 05:54pm | #9

            No, I've never heard of the Clearstream unit prior to this morning. It looks interesting, although I am not sure direct discharge into a potable water supply would make me particularly comfortable. But I have seen large versions of something similar in operation. The verdict on their safety is still out, I think.

            Years ago when I was in the Merchant Marine I ran sludge barges for NYCDS offshore to the 106-mile dump, a section of the Atlantic Ocean designated by the EPA for dumping processed sewage. New York City maintained a number of processing sites, the largest of which was on Ward's Island in the East River where it goes through Hell Gate into Long Island Sound. The raw sewage was run through a increasingly fine series of physical strainers, then it hit the macerators. The resulting sludge was then ærated and exposed to UV in a series of 10'x150'x1' basins, and finally I believe it was chlorinated big time. The total time from entry to exit of the system was 30 days.

            There was a lot of opposition to this procedure, mostly from people who didn't understand the process...but also from some very well informed scientists who were concerned about the residual heavy metals in the effluent. So finally, the EPA introduced a ruling giving NYC 10 years to find a better way. I left that tugboat company shortly thereafter, so I don't know what the city is doing with its sh!t now.... 

            Dinosaur

            A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

            But it is not this day.

      2. todd | May 08, 2005 05:25pm | #8

        Isamemon,
        I was guessing twice what you mentioned to do it right. I'll check it out.Others,
        Thanks for the levity to break the tension!Todd

        1. Piffin | May 08, 2005 08:13pm | #10

          There are good reasons for not having any structure over or near a tank.First is the practical necessity of pumping or otherwise maintaining the tank. Odds are 50/50 that yours is a steel tank rusting or rusted out and in need of attention anyways.Second is that if there is ANY sort of failure of the tank, there is methane gas being released int6o the ground around and the air above. occasionally, you hear reporst of houses that mysteriously blow themselves sky high. Nine times out of eight, it is probably contained methane that is the culprit. Third, is that the disturbed soils surronding a tank do not have the same load bearing capacity as nearby and if the tank leaks, the soils will change composition and structure, or will wash out and move with the water. That will lead to the structure built over them moving. Having a septic tank practically in the basement reminds me of account of conditions in medivieal Europe when the black Plague struck Filth was everywhere, and the most that was done by cities for public health was to enforce a law that when emptying the honey bucket out the window into the street below, one was required to holler out three times first, "Look out below!"If your discharge pipe is covered, you have a problem. at a minimal sixty to eithy gallons a day per person, and a probable thousand gallon tank, you had it full in a couple weeks. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        2. User avater
          goldhiller | May 08, 2005 11:29pm | #11

          Piffin and Isamemon have both managed to stay on task here ......and both have offered good advice. Much as this unexpected turn of events isn't apt to make you smile, I'd also highly recommend properly abandoning the current tank and installing all new everything. You won't be sorry in the long run if you do, but will most certainly be sorry if you don't.Grin and bear it ($$$) is the appropriate phrase here, I guess. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

          1. todd | May 09, 2005 01:22pm | #12

            <Grin and bear it ($$$) is the appropriate phrase here, I guess.>Ain't grinning but I think you and Piffin are right. Thanks a lot.Todd

  2. Isamemon | May 07, 2005 09:46pm | #3

    Also here in northwest

    we can build within 5 feet of tank, 10 of leach lines. we can put a deck over tank, as long as cleanouts are accessible

    had a similar project. tank was supposoed to be about "15 feet from house". owner wanted a bedroom extension, get the permits etc, start the dig out, bang, hit the tank

    too involved now, got a minor alteration permit $295 and put in a new tank out of the addition area.  $1500

    Had to decomission the old tank, pump it, collpase it , fill it with gravel, compact it, recopnnect house to new tank and new tank to leach lines $300

    Guess what, first drop box was "15 feet from house", who ever did the as-builts years ago messed up

  3. Pierre1 | May 08, 2005 08:40am | #6

    Keep that tank right where it is, and install a trap door. Great for revenuers, bill collectors, proselitizers.

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