I’m thinking about installing a sub-panel, however before I proceed I need to confirm a few things. Below are my questions and attached is a picture of my service panel. Responses are appreciated.
Questions:
1. Does the total amperage in the service panel need to be less than the Main circuit breaker amperage size? (My main breaker is 60-amp per lug. 120-amp total. Total branch circuit breakers is 460-amps)
2. If yes, could I change out the main breaker for a larger one? (wire size is #6)
3. If yes, how high of amperage could I go for this breaker panel? Will I need to change the wire size? Can the box handle a larger wire size (from the main leads to the Main breaker)? How could I change it safely?
Chief of all sinners.
Replies
1. No
Thanks for your reply... "Should" I increase the size?Chief of all sinners.
Far more knowledgeable people then myself will stop by, but my first response is up grade that panel.
I see several things that may be wrong. With out reading each one it looks like some breakers may not be the correct fit. You might be able to get them in the slots but that does not mean they are grabbing the buss bar correctly and are the right breaker.
Black wires are on the grounding bar not wrapped with white tape, what about the other end?
If you do upgrade some code have changed and you may have a bigger job, for instance the dryer now needs three wire with ground you may have to rewire that depending on your inspector.
But you seem to be loaded to the max a new panel may be wise.
Wallyo
"If you do upgrade some code have changed and you may have a bigger job, for instance the dryer now needs three wire with ground you may have to rewire that depending on your inspector."Well that require is for both a stove and dryer.However, it should not be required for just a service upgrade. But I don't think that is the servive panel anyway.But the dryer wiring is not correct anway for several reason.The cable is orange and I don't the colored cables came out until after 1996 the code was changed on dryers and stoves.But also on those for the older 3 wire you had to have 2 Hots and a NEUTRAL, not a ground.And that cable has a ground and no neutral.The stove uses SE cable which has the neutral wrapped around the 2 hots. But it is a neutral although it is bare..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill Until the OP replies I am not sure my self, it looks like a sub panel but from his first post I think it is the main service panel. I was going to point out the range but like I said more KNOWLEDGEABLE people will be by and I was not 100% sure on that one.I think it will be up to the inspector as to what needs to be made right, we have one in town that will make you do the upgrades to the range and H20 heater. But you are right in that in most cases it should stop at the panel. I think it depends on how muck power the inspector thinks he has, and how much muscle he wants to flex.But you have to admit that panel looks pretty sad.Wallyo
I have to agree w/ wallyo. I think you should replace your main panel.In your photo it looks like your existing panel may be maxed out as far as physical breaker spaces as well as current capacity.It also looks like there are multiple wires under one screw.Perhaps a new 200 amp panel is in order.I would urge you to consider a 40/40 full size 200 amp panel to help w/ the number of circuits you have there.
1. Does the total amperage in the service panel need to be less than the Main circuit breaker amperage size? (My main breaker is 60-amp per lug. 120-amp total. Total branch circuit breakers is 460-amps)
Not exactly. NEC specifies a derating calculation to determine the allowable load in a service panel and per breaker.
2. If yes, could I change out the main breaker for a larger one? (wire size is #6)
ONLY if the box is rated for that - there should be a label that specifies the maximum main breaker size.
3. If yes, how high of amperage could I go for this breaker panel? Will I need to change the wire size? Can the box handle a larger wire size (from the main leads to the Main breaker)? How could I change it safely?
As high as it is rated to handle. If you increase the breaker, the service wiring will generally also need to be changed. A panel rated for 200A, for example, has lugs that will accept 2/0 SEU.
Regarding changing it safely, hire an electrician. It sounds like you are not experienced enough to be safe working on a "hot" 200A 240 VAC circuit.
OK, I'm no electrician, but I've seen my share of panels -- and none of them looked like that one. What's up with the main breaker (at leat that's what its marked as)being 3 or 4 slots down on the busbar? Is this a subpanel that's jury-rigged to act as a main panel? Is that really the main breaker?
For what it's worth, I'm on the "upgrade this panel" bandwagon -- you sure have a ton of double-dippers in this one.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
"1. Does the total amperage in the service panel need to be less than the Main circuit breaker amperage size? (My main breaker is 60-amp per lug. 120-amp total. Total branch circuit breakers is 460-amps)"
No. You need to figure the load panel.
For a residence this this has the wordsheet.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/sizing-electrical-service.aspx
Note that some cases a the code uses a specific load such as for a dry. But where not give you use the load give by the appliannce nameplate rating.
I am not sure what you have there. It looks like a main lug panel which can't be used as the service equipment. That makes this a sub-panel, but with current code the neutrals and grounds need to be isolated.
The big cable that comes in at the bottom and connects to the top would be the supply.
I have not idea what the breaker labeled "main" is.
I tried following the wires, but they look like they terminate in that bottom bus strip.
And in addition to the other problems mentioned. Current code does not allow more than one neutral in a hole. And I doubt that all of the wires in a one hole on the neutral buss was ever legal (list by the panel manufacture).
And it is not kosher to reduce the size of the neutral on the stove connection either.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You have a main lug panel not a main breaker panel. There should be a separate fused disconnect between the meter and the panel. The fuses in that disconnect will tell you the service size you have (amperage).
Hey Chief,
To answer your questions:
1. No. The sum of the amperage of the branch circuit breakers can be far greater than the main breaker rating. This is because not all the branch circuits are pulling their rated amps at the same time. If the amps drawn by the branch circuits exceed the ampacity of the main breaker, the main should open (trip).
Also, the main breaker size is not 60 amps. The panel shown does not have a main breaker (in the panel). There should be an overcurrent protection device (a breaker or more likely a cutoff switch and fuses) upstream of the lugs at the top center of the panel; look for a fused cutoff switch (a fairly large box with an external handle) near the meter.
The two-pole breaker labelled "main breaker" is the main breaker for the 120 volt branch circuits--the 15 and 20 amp single pole breakers for lighting and convenience receptacles. The 15 and 20 amp breakers are in the lower part of the panel.
This panel is called a "split bus" panel. The two-pole breakers for the 240 volt appliances are fed from the buses connected to the big lugs at top center. Between those lugs, you can see two #6 wires landed under clamps; these AWG 6 conductors run down behind the breakers, loop to the left at the bottom, and terminate on the 60 amp breaker marked "main breaker". This breaker backfeeds two buses to which the 15 & 20 amp branch circuit breakers are attached.
The two buses fed by the 60 amp breaker are separate from the ones supplying the two-pole breakers in the upper part of the panel. Hence the term split bus panel.
This configuration of panel was pretty common in the 1950s and '60s. Electric ranges and clothes dryers were becoming common and a split bus panel was a neat way to have main breaker for the 120 volt circuits like the lighting and convenience receptacles, but not have to have the space or expense of a main breaker in the panel for the 240 volt loads. The separate fused cutoff switch protected the whole panel and the feeder conductors from the fused cutoff to the panel.
2. In this situation, those conductors are rated for 65 amps max., making an assumption on the type of insulation on the conductors running from the main lugs to the 60 amp breaker backfeeding the lighting buses. The 60 amp breaker is the largest one you can use. This question tells me you simply don't know enough to do this kind of work safely. Depending on a board for info is asking for trouble; you've gotten some good advice and some bad info in this thread.
3. You'd have to do a LOT of studying to learn many fine points of installing a panel before you could do anything safely. For instance, kudos to the person who noticed that the ground/neutral bar is a real mess. The panel listing (UL listing) may allow two grounding conductors per terminal screw, but no panel has been listed (to my knowledge) for more than one neutral conductor, or any combination of grounds and neutrals, under one terminal screw. The multiple neutrals in one terminal are likely to eventually loosen and if there are shared neutral circutis, that could damage or destroy appliances, or cause a fire.
I strongly suggest that you get one of the basic home electrical books--Black and Decker or Ortho are good ones--and read it. Then buy access to the Fine Homebuilding online archives and read the articles relevant to service panels and subpanels. Then come back and ask questions to assure yourself that you've got the right understanding of things.
If you don't want to put in that effort, and it'll be considerable, pay a qualified electrician to do the work. You may be ready to meet your Maker, but if you mess with the electrical in your house with your current state of knowledge, you may kill innocent people. If this isn't your house and you don't reside in it, then I think having you work on the electrical panel with your current state of knowledge is really scary.
Cliff
CapThanks you learn something everyday, I have seen split buss panels more so with fused panels didn't know they where ever made with circuit breakers.So as a warning to Chief the top portion of this panel is HOT unless a breaker (probably near the meter) upstream is turned off?Wallyo
Wallyo-
You're welcome.
And you're absolutely right--all those two-pole breakers are hot even with the 60 labelled "Main" is off. You'd have to find the main cutoff, and open it.
Work safe--
Cliff
Never saw a split bus panel before. (An probably never will again!)
Does it have to be wired as a sub panel? (If so, it doesn't look like this one is.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Excellent question!
No, this one isn't. The groudns and neutrals are connected to the same terminal bar. And I hope that the bar is bonded to the panel housing (can). It's a good picture, but you cant see everything.
Hard to say. If there's a main cutoff, and there ought to be per Code (going back a long ways), then that'd be considered the service point and antthing downstream is wired like a sub in the same structure--4-wire feeder, and ground and neutral kept separate in the panel.
But, I've seen a lot of installations where that isn't done. In reality, if the feeder is cable with an insulated jacket (i.e., the neutral is not exposed), and the distance from cutoff to panel is short (a few feet), and the installation is right, there is a little increased risk from running a three-wire feeder. If the feeder runs in metallic conduit, then a 3-wire feeder is a big problem--the conduit will carry some of the neutral current in normal operation. If a conduit connection goes bad (loose, corroded), the cinduit could carry a dangerous voltage.
Cheers,
Cliff
Hmm. All the more reason the OP should yank that box and do it (or have it done) right.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"And I hope that the bar is bonded to the panel housing (can). It's a good picture, but you cant see everything."It looks like there are 2 copper "rods" that go from the bar to an area next to or under the bottom breakers.But I don't see anything that looks like it might be a ground electrode conductor althought that can be attached to the neutral at the meter.But there is a large black wire that is on the far left of the bus. I can't follow it. "Hard to say. If there's a main cutoff, and there ought to be per Code (going back a long ways), then that'd be considered the service point and antthing downstream is wired like a sub in the same structure--4-wire feeder, and ground and neutral kept separate in the panel."Actually the "main disconnect" can have upto 6 handle mounted in one immedaited area. So It was probably OK when installed.But it likes like the 6th 240 breaker was replaced with 2 120 breakers so it is now you have more than 6.But I am trying to figure out what those breakers are.The 2 to the right of the main breaker, One is labeled bath.They have 2 terminals each, but are not tandem. And they have a black and white wire, but also another white wire that goes to the bus.I am wonder if they are an early berson of a GFCI breaker. There is a white area "mightt" be a button. But no separate test and reset buttons.Like the other person I have never personally seen a split bus breaker panel, but grew up with a split bus fuse panel. But I have seen picture of split bus breakers panels, but they have the 240 and 120 breakers in different ares so that it clearer that they are differen.In my area a panel replcement with a simple arial drop and inside panel would be 1-2,000. And they are almost all internal panels.OH!. I spy another problem. I was wondering where the green wires come from. Does not look like there is any conduit. But some could be MC.But look at the cable coming in the at the top right, between the 2 yellow romex. Looks like it might be a rubber shealth around 3 wires; ie, a piece of extension cord..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill I was wondering about the two white buttons also, just looked odd, but you spotted it, one button on each, not two (test & reset). Since one is labled bath I took it to be Some type of GFI but they are on the hot section of the panel.
Bill,
Wow, did you ever do photogrammetric interpretation for the military or the Agency? Excellent powers of observation...
1) the 2 copper "rods" that go from the bar to an area next to or under the bottom breakers--I think these are bonding jumpers, they are flattened on the other end and a 10-32 machine screw goes through a hole into the can and bonds (electrically connects) the terminal bar to the panel housing.
2) good point about the fact that a main disconnect isn't needed if the power can be cut with "six motions of the hand or fewer". But the six two-pole breakers supplying 240 or 240/120 circuits and the 60 amp two pole lighting breaker makes seven...maybe the panel originally had only six two-pole breakers, and that would meet the "six motions of the hand" requirement.
3) breakers with white buttons--yep, those are GFCI breakers. No reset button, the handle trips whether leakage to ground or or overcurrent. The tipoff is the button and the neutrals going to the breaker terminals.
4) panel replacement cost--there are guys around here that'll do a heavy up for $1500. These are unlicensed trunk slammers. It's poor work, no permit, no inspection, nothing on the grounding electrode system--just pull the service entrance panel off, use the same riser (conduit) and service entrance conductors (which is interesting as they're workig it hot; if the power co gets involved, they won't reconnect without a city green tag meaning a passed inspection), and reconnect the branch circuit wires.
5) hmmm, the green insulated conductors. I agree, they look like flexible cord to me. I have seen NM cable with green-insulated grounding conductors, though. But the glossy jacket on the cable and the jute filler makes me think it's flex. cord. Not much suprises me, I've seen a lot of extension cord used in wall, ceilings, and attics to extend circuits. No j-box, just flying splices. Sometimes not even wire nuts, just twisted wires and duct tape.
Cheers,
Cliff
CliffJust curious do you think any of the breakers are mismatched to the box? It is labeled as an
I T E box I just can not remember what types you can use in it properly. Wallyo
I think that ITE became Siemens.Read this this about listed breakers.http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Products/Residential-Electrical/Product/Circuit-Breakers/Classified_Circuit_Breakers.htmhttp://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-78561.htmlAnd CH makes listed breakers, but the question is if that panel is listed..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank you for your advice and thorough answers to my questions. I have an electrician coming out to give me a quote. This is too much for me to deal with on my own. What kind of price range should I expect from my electrician to replace this main panel?
Chief of all sinners.
Chief,
You're welcome.
I can't say exactly, there are a lot of factors that influence the cost of work.
Generally, though, I'm charging $3500-5000 for a moderately complicated replacement and heavy up (to 200 amps) of a service. This is for an exterior combined meter socket/breaker panel (that's how we do it in sunny California), overhead supply, re-do grounding electrodes. You're in a high cost area as well, I think given the location in your profile. Inside panel, replacing feeders from meter, new meter base--maybe $5-6k. Depends too on how much $ the sparky wants to make.
Don't be tempted to go with a cheap guy, the low bid. He probably won't be in business long, and then there's no one to handle warrantee work.
If there are lots of circuits into the box in conduit and of course you always have to modify thie pipes, higher end of the range. If it's a replacement panel that has the same exterior dimensions and all the branch circuit wires reach the places they need to in the new panel, the lower end.
Please let me know what kind of price you're quoted, and how it goes.
Cliff
Thanks Cliff. I'll let you know as soon as I get the quote.
Chief of all sinners.
Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. I've decided to spare my life and go with an electrician.
Chief of all sinners.
I'm glad you decided to get a real electrician. The questions you asked strike to the core of what makes electric work a 'skilled' trade ... and what separates a master electrician from a rope monkey. Apart from the 'nuts & bolts,' every trade requires some judgment calls. An electrician ought to be able to do a "load calculation" to determine whether the existing service is adequate. If it isn't, the repair begins at the Power Company transformer. Sub=panels are a good thing, and by themselves do not add to the electric load. What you are adding that they will feed might. Changing breakers to 'give you more power' is about as sensible as 'making your house larger' by painting it a different color. Bigger breakers need bigger wires, and ultimately, a bigger transformer from the PoCo.