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Discussion Forum

Set backs on resdential lots

| Posted in General Discussion on November 1, 2004 03:55am

The other day the builder of a house across the street from my job came over and asked that I sign a request for a variances that is to be presented to City Council in about two weeks. It seems he jumped the gun on his permit, put his footings in and and missed the street curve on the front of the lot. The result is the house is 1′- 6″ closer than the 20′ set back allowance.

 The city inspector did look at the footings after they were in and wrote, “proceed at your own risk,” on the report. The usual practice is to run lines off the lot pins to show the inspectors that the footing forms are set back correctly before pouring. 

The owner has moved in but the bank is holding back $220,000.00 because title cannot be issued. The house has in slab heat the section that sticks out is integral to the design and has two roofs meeting with pillars and on and on. It is a nightmare for him.

What are your experiences with set backs?

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Replies

  1. User avater
    BillHartmann | Nov 01, 2004 04:07am | #1

    Are you saying that the problem was noticed when the footing where first put in, but the builder when ahead and then continued building without either fixing it or trying to get a varances at that point?

    So what might have been a couple of thousand to fix is not potentially a $220k loss.

    Rots of Ruck!

    "The owner has moved in but the bank is holding back $220,000.00 because title cannot be issued"

    That does not sound right. More likely it COO and not the title.

    1. DThompson | Nov 01, 2004 04:18am | #3

      As I mentioned the lot "curves" in with the road, the builder missed this and took a straight line off of the two corner pins. The builder seemed to believe that his measurements were correct and went ahead.

      What is COO 

      1. HeavyDuty | Nov 01, 2004 04:50am | #10

        David, in your first post you said,

        asked that I sign a request for a variances that is to be presented to City Council in about two weeks. 

        The owner should be the one requesting for a variance, why did he need your signature?

        The city inspector did look at the footings after they were in and wrote, "proceed at your own risk," on the report.

        So the inspector did tell the builder something was wrong.

        The builder seemed to believe that his measurements were correct and went ahead.

        Didn't sound like he only knew it when the whole thing was finished.

        In my limited experience, it is a big mistake to neglect the official set back.

      2. Piffin | Nov 01, 2004 05:30am | #16

        A COO or a CO is a Certificate of Occupancy, which certifies that the house was built to local codes and standards, and it implies that it is safe to live in.

        Technically, it is required everywhere, but is often a neglected thing in enforcement. Here, if you ask for one, you might hear, "HUh?" The most liekly outfit to enforce it is the power company. They want it certified to turn on power to release them from liability. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 01, 2004 05:56am | #17

          It might be a conditional cert of occupancy.

          I suppose some munis might allow a conditional c of o with the thought in mind that the owner might have to cut back the encroaching part of the house if the variance isn't granted. The muni can start the taxaxtion immediately then and the house can be occupied...both are good things for most cities.

          blueBe cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!

        2. dIrishInMe | Nov 02, 2004 02:43pm | #40

          You said; >> Technically, it is required everywhere, but is often a neglected thing in enforcement. Here, if you ask for one, you might hear, "HUh?" The most liekly outfit to enforce it is the power company. They want it certified to turn on power to release them from liability. <<

          In my area, they are very serious about enforcing COs.  The CO can only be issued once all trade inspections are passed and the final inspectioon is passed too.  If you move in without one, you can actually be procecuted.  I have heard that inspectors have turned a final inspections because the people had moved in their stuff before all inspections were complete.  The power company will only "turn you on" if you have the CO, or if you get the local inspections department to send the power company a letter stating that your final electrical inspection has passed.   Matt

          1. HammerHarry | Nov 02, 2004 03:00pm | #41

            Around here, the CO is a bit of a joke:  the power is turned on during construction, in order to power the tools.  The local inspector never actually "issues" a CO, but apparently will put the letter in the file with your building permit.  The only way that you know you are ok is that the inspector stops coming by with his list of requirements; if you call him up, he'll tell you everything is fine.

            Our neighbors have been in for over a year, and they still haven't bothered to get their CO.  Doesn't bother them, and the inspector seems to have given up.  (The only outstanding issue was a minor one, you know, main beam supporting room above the garage bearing directly over a window header; inspector wanted some "silly" engineer's report on the header design....)

          2. Hazlett | Nov 02, 2004 03:24pm | #42

             I used to do some work for a Garage builder----the need for a variance came up fairly frequently in urban settings.

            different municipalities would have different setbacks---2' or 3' from the garage to the property line.

            Abutters to the property,---and abutters to abutters needed to sign the variance.

            It was always the abutters to abutters who held up the projects.

          3. DThompson | Nov 03, 2004 02:25am | #43

            The house mentioned in the first posting is built in a town where the city water is not turned on until an occupancy permit is granted. That permit is given when certain health and safety conditions are met plumbing, stair rails, heating, doors on bathrooms and so on. For example I moved in to one of my own homes but had not installed the hardwood in the living room, I was waiting for it to climatize. In order to have occupancy I had to paint the bare floor, it was a health requirement.

            The fact that the house is not built with the proper set backs has absolutely nothing to do with occupancy. The owner moved in last week the set back problem has to be worked out between the contractor, owner and the City variance board and probably a whole wack of high paid lawyers.

            And just to be clear what I actually signed was a form letter stating basically that I did not give a rat's #### about the house being closer to the road than It should have been. And I do own the lot across the street where I have a house under construction. 

          4. UncleDunc | Nov 03, 2004 04:09am | #44

            >> And I do own the lot across the street where I have a house under construction.

            Thanks for clearing that up. That's the information I didn't see in your first post.

          5. Piffin | Nov 03, 2004 04:13am | #45

            I realy do think that more should be strictly enforced.

            It is pretty loose here. One that bothers mne is a house I built several years ago where the garage ( attached) was our shop while in construction phase. The sheetrockers did the house and the one wall of the garge shared with the living space, but not the ceiling or other walls. They were waiting for me to call them back when it was available.

            So we were almost finished and had the rock scehduled for monday and moved all tools etc out on friday, explaining to the owners all of what was going on.

            The blankety-blanks rented a Uhaul and moved everything they owned into the garage that weekend. The sheetrock is still stacked against the back wall of that garage, and they live there with a bedroom immediately above the garage with no fire stop rock.

            I could hav eused the legal muscle to keep them out and protect them from their own stupidity. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. HammerHarry | Nov 03, 2004 04:15pm | #46

            The inspector here was absolutely adamant that not only did the garage have to be rocked, but taped.  (Not finish taped, at least).  When one of the contractors across the street asked him why he was insisting we taped ours, when nobody else had to, the inspector just looked dumb and mumbled that we were free to do more than code required if we wanted.

            He made it abundantly clear that if anyone moved in before the spring closer was on the door, or the rock was on, there would be hlel to pay.

          7. BowBear | Nov 03, 2004 06:50pm | #47

            In my area, the lack of a CO on a house with renovations has been used to lower the offer, just prior to closing of course. Yes, the homeowner can put the house back on the market, change to closing date on whatever house they are moving to etc. but usually they lower the price to avoid the added complication.

            An ex-boat builder treading water!

  2. Piffin | Nov 01, 2004 04:13am | #2

    My experience is don't even think about ignoring them.

    There is a case in a nearby town where a place got built so it was properly set back, but then they decided in progress to change the roofline and have a large overhang. Design was OKK but the overhang protruded into the setback area and they were orderd to change it. Not only are they out maybe twenty grand to re build the truss roof, but they lost a seasons business over it all, because this was for a food service. They could not get the CO until they fix it.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. Mooney | Nov 01, 2004 08:59am | #24

      ouch.

      Overhangs do count.

      We  have a 7.5 set back from the side yard , but I always say I like to see 10 or more on the building foot print because of overhangs.

      Tim Mooney

      1. BKCBUILDER | Nov 01, 2004 02:05pm | #25

        Overhangs don't count here.

        Zoning laws suck.

        Keith

        1. gdavis62 | Nov 01, 2004 02:17pm | #26

          Zoning laws suck, huh?  You don't have them where you live?

  3. User avater
    DaveMason2 | Nov 01, 2004 04:29am | #4

    I did the same thing a few years ago while working for a GC. I realized we were 1' too close to the neighbors house after the masons had the forms in. So I spent the weekend moving them. I offered to do it for free but the GC refused, he just wanted it ready for the pour on Monday.We didn't even ask for a variance, just fixed it. 

     I think this guy should've done the same thing and fixed it before moving ahead.  

    1. DThompson | Nov 01, 2004 04:32am | #5

      The house is finished the owner has moved in the contractor did not realize his mistake until the final survey was completed for title.

  4. UncleDunc | Nov 01, 2004 04:32am | #6

    What good is your signature going to do? I thought it was the owners of the nearby properties who had to certify that they didn't object to the variance.

    1. dIrishInMe | Nov 01, 2004 04:38am | #7

      Read the first sentence of the first post.  Matt

      1. FastEddie1 | Nov 01, 2004 04:49am | #9

        I agree with Uncle ... it sounds like the poster is the builder of a house across from the non-conforming one.  If so, then his signature is meaningless.  Well, maybe the city considers him to be the owner until it is completed and sold, in which case it makes sense.

        I would have a hard time agreeing to a variance if I was another HO in the neighborhood.  This is another example of a good reason to have the PL profesionally marked before starting.

        Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

        1. WayneL5 | Nov 01, 2004 05:23am | #15

          Everyone is right about what should have been done to site the house properly.  It sounds like the builder was aware of the setbacks and measured to meet them, but made a mistake in not taking into account a curve, which might not have been clear from the way the road was constructed.  The contours of pavement don't always follow the edge of the right of way.

          The question is what to do now.  What are you going to do, tell them they have to move the house?  If someone mentions "home owners' association" on this forum, 50 people respond with indignation about obnoxious officers and how they make unjustifiable trouble for everyone over nothing.  In this case, there is no harm.  The only problem is a technicality, one which the law recognizes and provides a remedy for through the variance process.  Is fighting against the variance a good way of starting off as a neighbor, or making a reputation for one's business before others in the community?

          If someone was harming me I might have some trouble accepting it.  But, if there is no harm, "loving my neighbor" is an easy command to keep.

          1. FastEddie1 | Nov 01, 2004 07:27am | #21

            Down here, the city has to notify all property ownersd within 100 yards (or similar) of any zoning change or variance request.  Those PO's have the right to either mail in a comment card, and/or appear at the hearing.  Then the city does what they want to anyway.

            I would return the card with an objection to the request because it violates established zoning regulatiuons, and then let the city and the inspector and the HO settle it.  If the HO wins, fine, case closed, we'll be good neighbors.  If not, then the HO and the GC have some negotiating to do.

            Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

        2. dIrishInMe | Nov 01, 2004 03:05pm | #27

          I agree that it's pound foolish not to hire a surveyor from the get go.  Initial house placment and then come back for brick points on newly poured footers. Or foundation corners if you want to call 'em that for houses that have no brick...  Around here it's $150 a trip.

          On the other hand, I'd sign for a 1.5' variance.  Who is it really gonna hurt? 

          Matt

          1. Piffin | Nov 02, 2004 12:13am | #30

            On an outside curve, I can't see where it would hurt either. An inside curve might infringe on view for safety.

            but the letter iof the law is what counts here. Doesn't much matter if it is two fet, twenty feet, or two inches. Infringment is still infringement. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 02, 2004 01:17am | #34

            Piffin, any time the letter of the law is more important than the spirit of  the law, you can be sure stupidity will eventually occur.

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos

            Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!

          3. Piffin | Nov 02, 2004 02:40am | #36

            I agree with that. I'm just reporting how it IS 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. HeavyDuty | Nov 02, 2004 05:11am | #38

            >>but the letter iof the law is what counts here. Doesn't much matter if it is two fet, twenty feet, or two inches. Infringment is still infringement.

            Exactly. If a variance were granted for 2' the next guy would come in for a 2'6" variance, where do you draw the line?

          5. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 02, 2004 01:16am | #33

            I'd agree to a variance too.

            Live and let live.

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos

            Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!

      2. UncleDunc | Nov 01, 2004 05:01am | #13

        >> Read the first sentence of the first post.

        Where do you think I got the words "signature" and "variance" if not from reading the first sentence of the first post?

        >> The other day the builder of a house across the street from my job came over and asked

        >> that I sign a request for a variance ...

        The way I read it, David is working a job as a builder across the street from the house that needs the variance. That suggests to me that he is not the property owner. And that suggests to me that the city council isn't likely to care very much about his opinion regarding setbacks at the house that needs the variant.

        Another way to read it would be that the house is across the street from David's (permanent) place of employment, but again, if he is just an employee at that site and not the property owner, I can't see his signature carrying a lot of weight with the city council.

        What exactly is it about the first sentence in the first post that leads you to believe that David is the property owner, or if he is not, that his signature as a non property owner would have any persuasive value to the city council?

        I don't think I should have to add, but I will anyway, just in case, that neither my first message nor this one was intended to criticize or denigrate David in any way.

        1. robzan | Nov 01, 2004 08:11am | #22

          I have found that here in Sacramento, CA that when i do remodels no one has ever asked for a CO on a remodel project, only on new const. I guess it is because the owners already live in the structure...?

        2. dIrishInMe | Nov 01, 2004 03:14pm | #28

          Oh ok - I see what you mean now...  I got the impression that he was also the land owner.  Sorry. Matt

  5. WayneL5 | Nov 01, 2004 04:46am | #8

    I have three stories about setbacks.

    First, some friends were buying a house and during the survey discovered that the garage they were buying extended a foot onto the neighbor's property line.  They had to wait until the seller purchased additional land from the neighbor before they went ahead with the deal.  That's why surveys are a good idea.

    When I had my custom home built a few years ago the builder said he'd assume no responsibility for the position of the house.  He told me I had to stake out where I wanted the house and he'd build it there.  He double checked, of course, but did not want liability.  I suppose if we couldn't agree on it, we'd have brought in a surveyor.  I had a good survey with property lines marked when I bought the land.

    This year my next door neighbor wanted a variance to add on to his attached garage.  I had no problem with what he wanted to do.  It was perfectly reasonable, so I went to the public hearing and spoke in favor of granting the variance.

    The municipality can legally make your neighbor tear down the encroaching portion of the house.  If it were me, I'd agree to the variance.  A foot and a half on a curve is no big deal.  I haven't heard of it done by signature.  You may want to attend the hearing if only because they can be interesting.

    1. HeavyDuty | Nov 01, 2004 04:57am | #11

      First, some friends were buying a house and during the survey discovered that the garage they were buying extended a foot onto the neighbor's property line.  They had to wait until the seller purchased additional land from the neighbor before they went ahead with the deal.  That's why surveys are a good idea.

      I was on the receiving end of one of these stories, my neighbor's garage addition was 3' into my property. He sited the garage from his house which he thought was accurate but was not.

      Nobody won in our situation except the lawyers.

      1. User avater
        intrepidcat | Nov 01, 2004 06:26am | #18

        "Nobody won in our situation except the lawyers."

        Looking back on it what would you have done differently?

        What do you think the other party should/could have done differently to avoid it in first place? To resolve it after it was done?

         

        1. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 01, 2004 06:30am | #19

          Settle or move.

          blueBe cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!

          1. stikman | Nov 01, 2004 07:26am | #20

            must be a awful small lot if on twenty feet setback, two feet matters. On my lot there is a ten foot setback and the house is still 80 feet from that.

        2. HeavyDuty | Nov 02, 2004 05:06am | #37

          >>Looking back on it what would you have done differently?

          I woulda contacted my neighbor myself instead of going thru a lawyer, that's what I ended up doing anyway. More... I ended up being the arbitrator between my neighbor and my lawyer on the lawyer's fee.

          >>What do you think the other party should/could have done differently to avoid it in first place? To resolve it after it was done?

          It's always easy to say it after the facts. The neighbor was an executive of a well known commercial contractor company. He was not just one of those three piece suit MBA kind of guy, he worked in the trenches too. He was the GC for his house and boy was that house overbuilt. He kept a skid loader in his garage for his own use (after he built the detached garage he had eight garage spaces) and he had intimate knowledge on surveying.

          Actually the detached garage was a granted varience because the by-law didn't allow any detached buildings. For a long time I was convinced that he knew his garage was over the lot line before I called in a surveyor to do my lot, and that's the first time the issue was brought to my attention. Towards the end I actually felt sorry for him having to go thru the whole thing which could have easily been avoided by calling in a surveyor (or a buddy in his case) or at the very least siting the garage using the existing survey markers instead of just taking it off from the house.

          He was a really good sport when it came to resolving all the issues, not just the infringement but issues with my lawyer as well. I don't think he could have done any better in that regard.

          1. User avater
            intrepidcat | Nov 02, 2004 06:58am | #39

            The direct approach is what I would prefer if some one has a problem with something I've done.

            Sounds like he knew he was over the line and was just hoping to get away with it.

            Thanks for the details.

  6. bill_1010 | Nov 01, 2004 05:00am | #12

    First off, there must have been a CO for the owner to move in.   If a CO was issued, an official variance was granted if the CO was given.  No need for a variance.

    If there was no CO, why is the owner living there?

    If the lot curves in front, there is much interpretation on to the set backs unless the city has adopted a measure to mark curved property lines.

    1. UncleDunc | Nov 01, 2004 05:06am | #14

      >> First off, there must have been a CO for the owner to move in.

      Not necessarily true in all juridictions.

  7. Mooney | Nov 01, 2004 08:55am | #23

    Every time I do a site inspection , I require the house to be staked on the lot and also building lines. They must call the before you dig number and have those markings on the ground as well.

    If that happened as you told above , they would be violation of building with out a permit . They would have to take their case to planning and zonning , then to the council. Its in the cities hands . They might wish it to be moved or grant a variance to let it stay there.

    I would not have said proceed at your own risk. I would have issued a stop  work order.

    Tim Mooney

    Tim Mooney 

    1. stikman | Nov 01, 2004 03:20pm | #29

      that something else. here they will not issue a permit till the guy looks at the setback lines at your property. only thing you can do without the permit is stake the bldg. so if it was off two feet, dig it out.

      1. Mooney | Nov 02, 2004 12:53am | #31

        that something else. here they will not issue a permit till the guy looks at the setback lines at your property. only thing you can do without the permit is stake the bldg. so if it was off two feet, dig it out.

        Thats what Im talking about here. State the building with white string and stakes. Mark the set back lines with white string and stakes . Call before you dig number 48 hrs in advance to my visit to do the site inspection.No ditches to it . Then after plan approval  , and licensing , youre ready for a permit . Of course first came zone approval through the planning department which is me if you meet building specs , if not youre off to planning and zoning& board of adjustments.  Then what ever they do has to be approved through city council, then back to me . Not a simple process if the lot doesnt spec.  

        Tim Mooney

    2. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 02, 2004 01:15am | #32

      Thats what I was thinking Tim.

      Why would the inspector green tag something if he knew it was a violation?

      blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos

      Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!

      1. Mooney | Nov 02, 2004 01:35am | #35

        He shouldnt , and if he did its a mistake , but still has to be corrected if it is.

        Very first question is , " can the building be built there? ".  Both zonning and size of house on lot in this case. Are there utilities to the lot ? There has to be , so if theres not that can be an expensive  question. Now we both know mistakes are made all the time and its normally the brunt on the owner for not knowing the dillusional process. Yes , Ive made those mistakes too and its part of training it seems. Its hard to hit a system when several people are involved and theres no incentive for working together. Not to speak of inner problems that no one wants to fix.

        Its a hard process for a homeowner with no experience or help. Many have bought land or lots on their own , only to find out its got problems the hard way.

        Tim Mooney

  8. DanH | Nov 03, 2004 07:00pm | #48

    In my experience, whether this variance will be approved or not depends on how many friends the owner and/or builder has on the city council and/or zoning board.

    Guy who wanted an oversized garage on a small lot to handle the van for his invalid wife: Denied.

    Guy who wanted an oversized garage on a small lot to house his collection of SUVs: Approved.

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