High-end residential subdivision in winter sports resort town. All-underground utilities, including water, sewer, phone, and cable. Main sewer lines are 8″, and were run right under all the road centerlines, with 4″ laterals saddled onto the 8″, a lateral running to each lot. This winter, with the deep cold we’ve had, some residents are experiencing sewer-drain freeze-ups, which is annoying and costly, not to say quite inconvenient.
Annoying because the way the freeze-up is attacked, your sewer exit line is opened up in your house, gassing you out (open some windows, please), and a warm-water jet line is run, sort of a plumbing version of a colonoscopy, shove the rigid PEX in until she dead-ends against the ice, start the pump, recirc into a container, and wait and hope while the ice is slowly melted away.
Costly because the plumbers charge the homeowners. But here is the rub. The ice is in the 4″ laterals, not in the lines that run from the houses to the stubs. The snowplows keep the roads clear, but with no snow cover on the roads, the frost can get down to 8′ depths, and freeze the lines.
Shouldn’t the town pay?
Replies
Shouldn't the town pay?
IMHO...you better believe it. If I was Mr High End homeowner, I would make one hell of a stink about it...no pun intended...if they didn't pay. Seems to me the location of the freeze up should justify whose responsibilty it is. If it's the towns responsibility to maintain the road, it should be their responsibility to maintain the lines under that road. Here in CT, it is.
I'll have to admit though, I didn't know that frost depth could reach 8' under asphalt.
A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Edited 2/15/2004 1:57:46 PM ET by bob
I've lived where it could go 10'
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10'?...and what was the ambient temp? I thought the max frost/freeze depth was only to about 5-6'. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
One winter in the mid 60's in Havre, Montana, about 50 miles from the Canadian border, they had 8 foot deep supply lines freeze. I lived in Glasgow at the time, and we had 30 consecutive days when it never got above 0F. And this was at about 2000' altitude. I imagine it was a lot colder in the mountains.
Interesting article here on permafrost. According to this, the frost may go down more than 1000 feet. But that's in the far north.
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cbd/cbd064e.html
Edited 2/16/2004 3:21:15 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
nice link, very interesting, thanks. Some of you guys come up with some real useful info links. Now I see why the length of time besides the temp could cause frozen pipes at that depth.
I was only thinking about us sea level folks and not way up north or up in the mountains, when I mentioned 5-6' A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
High mountain towns in Colorado.
Leadville is the higheest incorporated town in the country. It is over ten thousand feet above sea level. Minus fifty for a few weeks is not uncommon.
Fraser, CO is the site of many of the coldest recorded temps on the north American continent for any given day.
I lived in Kremmling at about 7200 ft where they bury the pipes six to eight feet and freezeups are not unheard of there either. These temps here of only ten below zero are balmy by comparison.
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i lived where it was 7,920 ft. & getting deeper every year. Didnt do any building there tho. Maintained the diesel generators.
Had to keep that fuel warm too!
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Was on the DEW Line in Greenland, Dye 2 (icecap) & Dye 4 (coast). When they built the site, they took an offshore oil rig platform & set it on the snow. Fuel bladders on the surface. When i was there, the fuel tanks were 125' below the surface. We had to stick the tanks monthly to measure the ice. Was told the Danes hid the engines on Dye 4 from Hitler during WWII. Had to hand oil the rocker arms every 4 hours.
Whole Line is defunct now.
How about a gallon or two of RV anti freeze in the holding tank every couple of days? Maybe enough to keep it from freezing. To find if the line has a dip or not hire a drain company with a camera set up. Work great and you could probably get a group rate. DanT
I have heard of people billing the city for services. If I remember right, more than half the time the city (at least here in Tulsa, OK) paid up. The rest fell into a gray area and the lawyers in the city system denied payment. So sure, you can submit an invoice. You may have to just be persistent. Be nice about it, be persuasive. Don't take no for an answer, make the city explain itself to your complete satisfaction. I hope this helps.
Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
"If yer gonna drive fast on the highway why not go as fast as you can? Like... a hundred miles per hour or more lol."
Hey Mr. M,
I need a clue here. Frozen drains mean water's standing in them..? Or, a little bit at a time is freezing in the pipe until it eventually closes up solid (sewer-sclerosis?). I don't get it.... just asking for clarification. Thanks.
You are right. But we don't know whether it is a dip in the pipes, creating standing water, or a slow buildup. Many of the homes are built on the low "view" sides of the roads, and have lift stations for pumping waste out of holding tanks, thus the waste is seen by the 4" laterals as large surges every few days instead of more intermittent smaller surges from plumbing use.
A.M. temps this morning are about 27 below.
Find the ROW (right of way) of the road in question by locating the front property lines. If the freeze up occurs within the ROW, it should be the city's responsibility to keep the lines clear to the property line. You'll have to do some measuring of the PEX to make sure that the plug is within the ROW.
Already done. The PEX we are using comes from across the pond, and has ID markings at precise intervals. We thought the spacings were 1m (meter) apart, but they weren't. We doublechecked the intervals using 25 and 50 foot tapes. The blockages are in the ROW for sure.
Breakout for some of the freezeups will involve road digs, and all the "call B 4 U dig" protocols, etc. What a mess.
If the HO's are having to foot the bill, you might want to counsel them to get some pics of what's going on for future legal action. Lay out the PEX toward the yard(s) from the blockage, and flag the ROW so it will show in the pics. Get the street cuts too.
Since he said this was in a vacation area, that also means that the sewer lines might be cooler than in a residential (lots of warm use, all day long).
Something is surely wrong, I run a sewer dept here in Northern lower Mich., on lines which have frozen repeatedly we installed wells at the termination ends to keep a small flow going.
We are responsible for the line from the property line to the main on gravity, on the pressure lines (septic tanks with pumps) we are responsible from the tank out to the main.Someone should check with the DPW and the engineer of the system.
Alan
I agree there.
The one that I am most familiar with was a situation where the lines leveled out on final lead to pumping box. Both box and approach line would freex and then the backups went uphill from there, freezing harder. After three years the town finally rebuilt the section.
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