Hi All, I am building a summer house for our family on a remote island on the Chesapeake Bay. (to see how remote google Smith Island MD). I want to sheet, paper, and install windows and doors before raising the walls. How do you get the doors and windows square or level in the opening with the walls laying flat (yes I’m not a professional but it’s the only way I can afford it). Logistic nightmare. Hauling everything by 24′ Carolina Skiff but worth it in the end. Thanks for any help.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Deckorators Voyage decking, which is mineral-based rather than made of a plastic or wood composite, is lightweight and doesn't expand and contract as much as standard composite decking.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
I have never used this technique.
Frame, sheath and Tyvek before raising the walls? Yes, done that many times. Install windows and doors - no.
I don't think I would install doors before raising - very limited chance for success in my opinion.
Windows - if the wall section is built parallel and racked square during sheathing then the window opening will also be square. Installing the window square to the opening (measure from edges) will produce a square, plumb and level window ---- assuming the subfloor is level.
I know others have done this, at least with windows, always sounded iffy to me, still does.
I further assume you are considering this technique because of "single handing" the build - put it all together and raise with Proctor wall jacks.
Consider: Smith Island should provide a decent source of "muscle" labor in the winter - especially if oystering is poor. Many watermen will work at shore jobs if the Bay is not providing for them - some are very good at construction.
You posted at 4:53 am - you are already keeping waterman's hours - go to the harbor and get to know a few of them - most are salt of the earth types with hearts as big as all outdoors.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks. Actually my wife and I both were born and raised there. Sounds like you are familiar with the area. Great people. Really the only place left that we can afford a place with a great view of the bay. Rather be there anyway! Thanks. Eddie Somers
Eddie,
Best of luck to you - moved away to the city did ya? Now you are coming back to your roots. The Bay's got her grip on you doesn't she - don't ignore it.
I had to chuckle when I read Sasquatch's opening line - wood floor over basement......
Better make that basement pretty shallow or put in lots of pumps.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
FWIW
Squaring and sheathing a wall while on the deck is readily done by calulating the diagonals from the heigth ang length of the wall and then measuring and adjusting the stud wall assembly prior to nailing the plywood.
Generally that is what is raised in nailed off with braces and other inplace walls.Windows and doors will often add too much weight to make lifting a managable task.
The sheathed wall will be some what limber in the flat plane and any installed doors or windows may be distorted during the lift. If your floor plane is slightly out of level then so will all of your opening infills.
How will you handle the house wrap at the intersect and overlap at the floor system box sill?
You will also expose the windows and doors to possible damage during ceiling/roof framing construction and installation of subfascia sheathing and shingling. Not to mention exposure to the elements.
I think it not wise to install the windows and doors until all is in the dry.
..............Iron Helix
Never seen anyone place doors and windows in the wall before raising. Sheathing and housewrap, OK. The wall could twist a bit when raised, might damage the doors and windows.
Also, doors and windows will make a framed wall even heavier to raise.
Also, I can't see how you could guarantee that they would end up level unless your platform was perfectly level and perfectly flat.
Don't do it.
Are you doing this alone or with one helper? You might look into renting wall jacks to raise the walls (like a tall car jack). In my area they can't be rented so you may also have trouble finding them. You might also consider using a come-along winch but best just to hire some help and pay them $15 / hr or whatever.
And be careful raising the walls if you haven't done it before. Post questions here to ask how to do it if you aren't sure (e.g. securing the bottom plate to prevent wall kicking out, securing it after raising, etc). Raising walls can be dangerous.
Edited 10/19/2007 8:12 am ET by canoehead2
Edited 10/19/2007 8:15 am ET by canoehead2
Well, "pallettizing" the walls seems elegant, but, the trick of it is that when you tip walls up, they bend and twist a bit--unless you frame/reinforce/strongback them. Which would then mean needing a crane or the like--not the sort of thing to skipjack out to the island.
JTC probably has it best. Frame on the deck, and get some stout hands to "norwegian steam" the walls up. Set the windows and doors afterward.
Doing it the 'traditional' way also will help in that you get to handle the casing & trim in a more 'normal' fashion, too.
You have ferry service out to your isle? If so, then you ought seek Piffin's sage advice on island house building.
Assuming a wood floor over a basement:
First, build your deck, which is your floor joists, including rim joists. If that is square and level, it will be easy to make the rest square, level, and plumb. Apply your sheathing over the floor joists. There are plenty of books on how to do this. The best way might be to go to some construction sites and see how it is done. It will be worth the time.
Building a typical wall with a door and a window.
Snap a line 3 1/2" in from the edge of the sheathing all around the deck, assuming 2 X 4 walls. cut your bottom and top plate material from your longest 2 X 4 material. Make sure they are exactly the same length. Fasten them together with a nail every 5 or 6 feet. Now set them on edge so the edge of the 2X4 which will be your bottom plate is touching the line. Your goal here is to have them the same length and straight on the line. Toenail on the outside of the bottom plate to the deck (along the red line), about every three feet.
Now lay out where your studs will go using your square and tape. Use a pencil to draw two lines across the edges of the plates where each stud will go. Then measure out the location of the windows and doors, marking their center line on the plates. Calculate where the jacks and kings go, measuring from the center line. Cripples will be in the same locations where you marked the studs originally.
Separate the top plate, leaving the bottom in place. Nail in your studs and headers and sills etc. Your wall framing complete, measure corner to corner. Compare to the other corner-to-corner measurement. Nudge the top plate left or right until they are equal measurements. Toenail the top plate in place on the outside with one nail. Leave it sticking out a little so you can pull it after you put on the sheathing.
If you did all that right, everything in the wall will be square because marks were made on two plates which are the same length. Now install your sheathing, wrap, and hardware. Everything will be square. and plumb when you raise the wall.
Edited 10/19/2007 11:14 am ET by Sasquatch
You're gonna need to figure a way to build the walls 1/2" off the deck, while maintaining square and level, in order to make the door and window jambs have the correct exteriir reveal (siding) and interior reveal (drywall).
Gonna be tough.
"Fortunately, the ideas of individual liberty, private property, freedom of contract and association, personal responsibility and liability, and government power as the primary enemy of liberty and property, will not die out as long as there is a human race, simply because they are true and the truth supports itself."
Hans-Hermann Hoppe
Once the wall is ready for windows, raise it just far enough to install, and then finish raising. It is done all the time.
ees,
Windows (aluminum or vinyl only- NO WOOD!) , sheathing , tyvek - Yes.
Doors (Unless patio or sliding ) , No.
What do you plan to use for siding (or is that the sheathing you mention?)?
I have done what you propose many times when building with T-111, and also when using 1/2" sheathing that was to be followed by a finished siding.
Sequence depends on what the final siding is.
I will use a sheathed then sided wall as an example.
Check the platform for being a FLAT Level plane. Snap a line the width of the plate inside the platforms edge. Build the wall on the platform . Drag , or move the wall so that the outside bottom edge of the bottom plate aligns with the snapped line. Use 12d-16d nails and tack the bottom plate to the line every few ft. (WE set the bottom plate right on the line to start with , then nails studs into place then reset the plate again when done)
Square the wall (Measure diagonals, they must be the same!), tack the top plate to the floor to hold it in place (Bottom plate has been tacked in place on the "build line" already ). Sheath it off, cut out window openings. Check openings for sq.
Paper around the windows using whatever material you normally use .
In your case you can draw a line on your paper 2" out from the window opening all the way around the window. This will give you a reference for aligning the window.
Lay the windows into the openings , according to manufacturers recommendations for sill clearances, setting blocks , side and head clearances etc.. Tack the window into place at the corners only until you get all of one walls worth in the openings. Now go back and re-check the sq of the windows and nail them off.
Paper the wall.
Get out your wall jacks or gather your friends and lift the wall.
As others have noted, the lift can be dangerous, spare people is far better than not enough. Best to try to find some one experienced to lead the "crew" or help with jacks.
Don't get in a hurry setting windows or anything else actually .
Couple points some of the fellas seem to be missing that may be helpful if you do decide to put the windows in before raising the walls (which I don't personally recommend).
1. Frame, square up, and then sheath the wall. Then tilt the wall up just a few inches and then let it back down on 2x4 blocks on edge. NOW set your windows. This way you have some space between the subfloor and the interior side of the wall.... for the jambs.
2. After your windows are installed square.... pull the sashes out and put them somewhere safe. You don't need to leave all that heavy glass in the wall while you raise it. Nor do you need it hanging around waiting to get trashed during the rest of the dry-in period.
Again, I personally don't recommend installing the windows before raising the walls... for all the same reasons already mentioned. But I've seen it done enough times and thought it through myself enough times to offer some insight. I've even seen guys go as far as installing siding before raising a wall as well.
Pretty much ANYTHING and EVERYTHING can be pre-built and fit perfectly. But it takes a lot of thought, skill, preperation and experience. Sometimes pre-building things isn't worth the time and energy it takes. Other times it pays out exponentially.
View Image
View Image
You gettin a little breather between games!
Although I wish my team was in the hunt it's very relaxing just watching the game and not chewing finger nails.
Doug
You got it bud..... Cowboys and Indians had my stomach in knots this weekend! It's sure been a fun time to be a Boston sports fan though.... the Sox are still fighting, the Patriots are rolling, and Celtics are finally going to be relavant again. Let's not talk about the Bruins though. :(View Image
ees, Diesel is right it can be done and it does pay off exponentially.
Back in Michigan where I learned my craft, we always put almost everything on the wall before tilting it into place. Almost everything includes framing, sheathing, paper, overhang, siding, windows, window trim, corner boards but I've never set a door before we tilted it up.
We used to require that the windows get delivered on site as soon as the garage was framed or the second story deck was started. They would deliver the windows and we'd store them in the first floor.
This was critical to get their best framing price because setting and trimming windows off ladders is not fun, fast, efficient or cost efficient.
In most cases, the upstairs windows would be set tight to the upper frieze. The frieze is installed parallel with the top plate and top plate is level right? Once we nailed the top two corners of the window, we'd pull out our tape and square the window up, thus creating a perfect square...theoretically speaking of course. We'd then eyeball the sidejambs and nail the sides straight and do the same for the top.
After tilting the window up, I always insisted on checking the inside of the jamb for parallel to the top plates. A quick check normally verified that it was perfect. If there was a discrepecncy, we'd send in a shim to get it parallel with the top plate. The top plate is level...right?
After verifying that the top jamb was level (by measuring), we'd either square the inside jamb using a tape, or verify it's squareness with the operating sash. We'd shim the side jambs as needed to lock in all the jambs all ways.
I always felt that those shims were temporary because the rough lumber that is used in houses needs to dry out and if you wait till it hits the dryness level for good building, the shims would be loose from shrinkage. It really is up to the trimmers to shim all millwork...even though many of the younun's dont know that anymore.
Have fun with your prebuilding effort. If it's all menatally too much, just "jungle frame it".
jim
fka (formerly known as) blue
I also never installed a door until the wall was up. There's really no need. He said he wanted to do it, so I didn't try to discourage him. Doors are trickier. Also, if you are going in and out of the doors while framing, it is best to not have them installed until all the trades have completed rough-in.
Why do you want to do this?
It can work well for framing pros like Blue and Diesel who work in production mode and have lots of on site muscle, the expierence to use it efficiently and maybe even machinery. I'm thinking that wouldn't apply to your situation. I guess if you had some wall jacks...
BTW - growing up we had a house at Deal MD so I'm familiar with the Bay and somewhat familiar with the lifestyle. Sis still has the house.
Really appreciate all your guys help. Didn't give you all enough info.
House is 20'x16'.
3 story.
Have had engineering done as far as height.
Not doing vinyl siding until walls in place.
1 6ft. window centered on each 20 ft. wall.
1 6/0 door centered on each 20 ft. wall.
Thinking about disassembling doors and then installing from 8'x8' decks on each floor.
Have built a couple of spec homes myself and mostly worked alone or with wife and sons.
Have read all info here on Proctors and probably going to invest is a pair.
If after 2 floors third looks to much have a framing crew that will do third, although I really like the challenge of rafters (I use John Carroll's rafter jig).
Will get waterman's help raising walls.
Had a guy do block foundation (crawlspace) that is really particular about level and square.
CapnMac, I will do a search for Phiffin's advice on islands.
Matt, I occasionally work the Deal area of the bay.
JTC1 sounds like you would enjoy Smith Island, there are rentals available, could hook you up to go crabbing with one of the guys, heck there may even be some dummy trying to build a house there that would trade a free week or so for some help!
Will keep thinking and reading.
Really appreciate you guys thoughts and advice. I'm captain of a 100' 200 ton buoytender icebreaker on the bay so the only way I could repay is with boating or fishing advice.
I frame additions all the time that are this size. I frame them by myself, lift the walls by myself and set the ridge by myself. You should find out about toenail framing. Thats the only way I can do it by myself. The logistics of having all that thievable (word?) material around and getting set up to lift a wall with God knows how many people doesn't make any sense. I can frame, plumb and sheath the walls for a 20 x16 standard addition in one day, no help, no wall jacks and no thinking required.
ees, you will not have any trouble building those walls with the sheathing on. I wouldn't set the doors though. You would have to cut the bottom plates out to set the doors and that presents additional challenges for squaring and raising.
Setting the 6/0 doors is actually very easy after the walls are up. I work from the inside. If I'm setting them alone, I would remove the operating door. I'd then be wrestling a 3-0 door with 3' of frame hanging out. I grap it in the middle, lean it out on top and slide the 3' of frame out into space at an angle. At some point, the door gets out there enough to slide it properly into the opening and the heavy part of the door never really leaves the deck.
It's actually very easy. It's significantly easier with a helper and that's what we normally do. The hardest part for me is carrying the door upstairs!
If they both operate, I'd remover them both. If it's a door wall, I'd remove only the operating panel.
I can easily reach out and nail the brickmold out past a fixed glass. If it's a plastic fin, I'd probably opt to do the nailing off a ladder because you have to aim into the holes.
You won't need wall jacks for these walls unless they are very thick or tall. They sound like two man walls to me.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
>>If it's a plastic fin, I'd probably opt to do the nailing off a ladder because you have to aim into the holes.<<
Use a Positive Placement gun. Put the tip in the hole and shoot it in.
Matt
Hey Matt.... where do a find a positive placement roofing nailer.... for the nailing flanges? Is it one of the vinyl siding attachment gigs that you're talking about? Where do I find one?View Image
I use a regular positive placement gun. With 2-1/2" nails. A box of galvanized runs me $80. That easily pays for itself over the course of a few homes.
The vinyl siding attachment for a roofing gun probably wouldn't work, it has two "nipples" (for lack of a better term) that rests in the nail slot. Too much slop to hit a small nail hole.
So I treat the holes like a joist hanger hole.
Matt
Umm, usually we are nailing windows with brick molds and using our regular nail guns.
If it's a plastic fin, which are totally useless in my opinion, we use a wide crown staple or roofing nail with the big head. I dont' think I'd be running for our positive placement tool because it only shoots those small teco nails.
Some of the cheesy plastic fins will easily take a staple anywhere. Some need to hit the hole. In any event, I wouldn't count on the fins from doing anything. Every window that I've ever nailed with plastic fins shakes considerably more than I think is good. Of course, good building practices call for shims and nails throug the jambs, right? What else is going to limi the 1/4" movement that the fins allow? Oh yeah.... the caulking and interior casing will help.
In any event, I still wouldn't advise setting a door before raising and I've thought about prebuilding EVERYTHING in my career!
Does your positive placement tool shoot roofing nails and longer nails?
fka (formerly known as) blue
It shoots 2-1/2" galvanized nails and thats what I use. I haven't had a problem with them moving after they are nailed though.
We use Anderson and Jeld Wen windows and the holes are just big enough for the shank of the nail to pass through. Some are much larger holes and I hand nail those with roofing nails.
I wouldn't set a door before a wall was tilted up either. I install 90% of the glass and doors get set much like you described. From the inside.
I haven't got to set any new glass with brick moulding as a part of the unit. Who makes them?
Matt
In the Metro Detroit area there are lots of window companys used that have all wood frames and brickmolds including doorwalls. The most common used are MJC and Crestline. Crestline is called something else now....the name escapes me. I think it starts with a V.
Over the years, 80% of the windows I have set are wood.
fka (formerly known as) blue
2x6x8 ft. walls. Still 2 person wall? Really good info guys. Thanks.
at 16' and 20' long my answer is NO. But then I am a little old guy.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
ees, you have to do the math.
If you have a 20' wall with a six foot opening, you actually will be each lifting a total amount of 14' divided by 2. That essentially means that you are lifting a 7' wall and half the header of the door.
I'm not strong enough to do that, but everyone on my crew would do it without giving it a second thought. Of course they are young and headstrong and they don't understand the long term effects of overdoing things. Of course, back problems can be created by repetitive motions like lifting and carrying single sheets of plywood...so back problems are relative. Additionally, the chances of back injury due to the heavier lifting would have to be compared to the danger of climbing ladders and working on scaffolds to sheath a three story building.
Getting back to the point: I could probably get that 20' wall up alone, without wall jacks if I had to. For me, even if I was working with a helper, it would be most important to get it to the point where I had an upright position and a straight back to make the final lift. I would methodically lever it up one side at a time till it was set on saw horses. We used to do this all the time with heavier walls when we had as many as four or five guys. At this waist high level, the wall goes up much easier without back strain.
So, the short answer is yes, you can lift that 20' wall safely, without jacks, but you might have to do some sensible staging to do it safely. There are much lower costs wall jacks that you could use too rather than the proctors. I always used a Mac Hoist but they are still pricey. Some of the guys use a ratchet type product that is attached to a single stud and I think that would be a great compromise if you think the 20' walls will be more than you and a helper could hoist up.
Three guys on those walls and I would be one of them...even with my awful back.
fka (formerly known as) blue
Jim (that's gonna take awhile),
Can you talk me through how the Mac Hoists are used? I see 'em on Ebay for about $300 each new... I presume it would be smart to own two of them. I'm using my forklift to lift up just about everything these days, but occasionally I get in a spot where the machine just won't fit.
I've got Proctors.... but they're a real chore to set up and lug around. Don't get me wrong, if I didn't own the machine we'd be using them all the time still. I dunno, maybe I'm getting old and lazy. :) So what's the deal with these Mac Hoists?View Image
We've used the MacHoists exclusively in MI since I was an apprentice. They work and I've seen some unbelievable walls hoisted with them. Some were so scary and daunting that I wouldn't dream of getting near them in any capacity. I've heard of wall jacks getting driven into the basement throug the floor from the overloaded walls. I've also heard of the wall jack poles splintering from loads.
I'm just trying to give you a sense of how extensive they have been used around my old stomping grounds. In fact, they are so loved, that my old partner Forrest, who has owned and used a machine for the last ten years still has them onsite and often uses them still.
Basically, they are a boat winch bolted to a metal frame. The metal frame is shaped to receive a 2x4 "T" assembly. The beauty of this set up is that the materials for your "pole" are on every job. Rather than storing these poles, we simply take them apart after all the walls are up and use them for backing or something.
One of their nicest features is that you get to customize the pole length for every condition. After using them for a few lifts, you begin to get a sense of exactly how long you'll make them. For instance, when I was using them to lift 8' walls, I'd only put together a 12' (11' 4" is perfect I think) pole which was very light and easy to handle. It would crank up any wall and lock it in at a plumb position. ONce the wall is upright, the jack actually acts like a brace and you can walk away and start the tie in.
The other nice feature is their ability to knock down and stow aways. For years, I had a pair that I could totally dismantle and store in a very compact space behind my van seat. I used to unscrew the handles becasue they protruded, remover the top wheel and store those parts in a tool box. The main frames would then mesh with one another and takeup a very miniscule amount of space. Most people store them with a 3' 2x4 "T" because they are easiest to set up the next time used.
I've advocated for their use here before but Proctor gets all the press. I've seen some Proctors in MI (very few) but I wouldn't want anything to do with storing those massive (by comparison) tools because I know how easy the Macs are to use. Additionally, I know from experience that the macs can be beefed up far beyond their stated capacity. There was one guy I know who never used anything less than 20' (maybe longer) 2x6's on his Macs. He's shave down the first few feet to insert into the frame. As you could imagine, those poles would be heavy, but if you saw the walls he would raise with them, you'd understand why he did it. His rational was that he wanted the extra length to raise the tall walls we always had to deal with. We always used a different tactic on the tall walls, so we never put anything heavier or taller than a 2x4x16 in ours, if my memory serves me right.
I've raised walls that required four Macs on them....so that pretty much tells you how much they can lift. Nowadays, I'd opt for a crane.... but I'll never claim that MI framers are smart and work safe....LOL.
Go for it...you won't be sorry. Check craigslist or ebay and buy one cheap. Then throw it away if you don't like it.
We are bringing a pair to Texas for some of the projects we've already contracted.fka (formerly known as) blue
"They sound like two man walls to me."Said he with the bad back....!;)Don't forget he is inexperienced and going up three stories.For safety, I like three men raising any wall with sheathing on it. Two can hold and plumb while one adds the braces.
Otherwise I use the Proctors.'course, I a m not a framer and I have a bad back.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One other thing.... I can't recall if it was mentioned already or not.... even if it was, it's surely worth repeating:
Make sure you securely strap the bottom plate to the deck! Toenailing the bottom plate on edge works fine for smaller walls... but if you've got a heavy wall you really want to use metal straps to hold it from kicking out on you. Kickouts are disasterous. I use the metal banding off of lumber packs but Simpson straps can be bought as well.
>> Make sure you securely strap the bottom plate to the deck! Toenailing the bottom plate on edge works fine for smaller walls... but if you've got a heavy wall you really want to use metal straps to hold it from kicking out on you. Kickouts are disasterous. I use the metal banding off of lumber packs but Simpson straps can be bought as well.
Almost all the suppliers in my area have switched from metal banding to some sort of plastic stuff that can't be used for this (it splits). So I now use pipe strap 'cause I'm always too nervous to trust my toe-nailing (I'm not a pro like most guys in this forum).
Canoe, I've used brick ties for the last 25 years without incident. They are the perfect size, have nail holes in them and usually are lying around free on any brick site.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
Sounds like a fun project. I worked for a national builder who for many years and we did this all the time. With wood and aluminum windows. Vinyl should be aok but you must not beat the panels around while setting them.
As everyone has said, build panels square, imake sure you nstall sill pans in the jambs and make sure you flash the tyvek properly. Let the tyvek overhang the bottom of the panel so that when you install your deck or whatever you are doing, the tyvek goes to below the foundation.
If you are doing a 2nd floor, overhang the tyvek there as well. Flash in the windows properly with the tyvek lapped shingle style. Make sure the windows are set in caulk and set square and level with the bottom plate of the panel so when stood up, they are square. Triple check your openings for windows and doors to make sure you have all correct dimensions.
I would not set the doors in the panels in advance. How many could it be and I dont see much savings there. (truthfully, a couple of guys could get the windows set pretty quickly once panels are uprighted but if that is how you want to do it, some care will work!)
good luck