I kept thinking someone would mention this. While watching “ask this old house” I think I saw the electrician installing a new bath exhaust fan and securing it to the ceiling joist with SHEETROCK screws. I doubt this would meet Piffin’s spec’s.
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OK, say all the screws snap... what's the worst that would happen? It wouldn't fall, as it's held up by the sheetrock. I don't see how it would even receive enough stress to break those #6 screws.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
The mounting flange was on the outside of the S/R so the S/R want hold it up. At least that is what it looked like to me.
Heck, most sparkies install the fan with an old thumbtack. DW screws are a definite improvement.
(DW screws are perfectly adequate for the job. No strain on them to speak of -- just holding the housing more or less in place.)
Why don't bathroom fans come with an oversized cover that when removed exposes the connection to the duct so you can upgrade without drywalling?
It would cost money and it would look ugly.I have in the past successfully replaced a fan with a larger one using arthroscopic surgery. Not always guaranteed to work and not necessarily worth the effort, except in this case it saved me having to duplicate the ceiling texture.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Are you telling me the wizzes here couldn't come up with a quick connect system like a huge sharkbite or something? My wife wants a nice new Panasonic to replace the cheap Broan that sounds like a moped and I don't see why it has to involve drywalling. When I become world dictator there will only be one housing box that every brand must use.
The units DO pretty much universally come with a giant Sharkbite of sorts. That's how I managed the arthroscopic surgery. Just takes figuring out, and a decent knowledge of French.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Just for the longterm durability of the install regarding possible rust stains forming at a future time, how much harder is it to use a coated screw instead?
If the screw rusts, so does the housing.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Wouldn't be from something I did then.
I still think drywall screws are for drywall for the most part and coated screws are so near the same price I wouldn't even consider it.
Only added plus to a drywall screw is the sharper point having a better grab when starting.
Only added plus to a drywall screw is the sharper point having a better grab when starting.
Plus the fact that we drywallers leave 'em laying all over the floor. Free for the pickin' Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
So, YOU'RE THE GUY THAT'S ALWAYS DOIN' THAT!!
snorK*
Yeah, what I carry is deck screws or other coated screws, but I wouldn't hesitate to use DW screws to hang a bath vent fan, if that's all I had. If moisture is dripping out of the vent then there are bigger problems than rusty screws.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The housing is either AL or painted and/ or galvanized to prevent rust. The SR screw is not.But I wouldn't be loosing any sleep over something as light weight as a fan unit installed with SR screws. I would wonder why the guy is using them instead of the screws that came with the unit tho. If he lost them? Or can't read the instructions?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
9 times outta 10 the combo head sheetmetal screws sent with products made in China are the worst screws I ever ran across. I toss em and use what I have on hand. I like the neoprene washer head roofing screws for a LOT of places where I can get away with them.
Hex head, washer and antivibe rubber, galv or painted..they out last just about everything.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I would wonder why the guy is using them instead of the screws that came with the unit tho.
'Cause they're sharper, go in easier and hold better.
You're not trying to say the #### mounting screws they send out with most fixtures are actually any good are ya?
The only good thing is they usually package them in those little plastic bags that make throwing them away easier!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I got a bag o' screws with something last year that the Cross for the phillips was way off center. Impossible to drive even if a number 1 and a half driver was made to fit the inbetween cross.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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they're getting more creative!
I usually just get the ones where the heads shear off the moment they actually touch something.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah, those ones from China and Malyasia are ####, but some are actually pretty impressive.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The units I've seen have a light coat of paint that flakes off readily. They're not really designed to get wet.Re the screws that came with the unit, 9 times out of 10 I toss those since they're woefully unsuited to the task -- often old-fashioned tapered screws that can't be driven into anything harder than balsa, or else those totally untapered pan-head screws that are really only suited to use with cheap drywall anchors.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
They're not really designed to get wet.
should I not be pointing the shower heads at the ceiling anymore?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Here's the perspective of a frequent used of drywall screws for tasks not associated with hanging drywall ...
First, note I did NOT say 'sheetrock' screws. Since "Sheetrock" is a brand name used by US Gypsum, I would only apply that name to their particular screws - and mighty fine screws they are, too! Just haven't seen the 'real thing' in ages. Pity, that - with their 'hi-low' thread pattern, they were quite versatile.
I use drywall screws all the time - for hanging fans, boxes, cable straps, whatever. Why? Because they work quite well. They quickly bite into the wood, and have threads all the way up the shank (unlike wood screws). The Phillips recess is nice and deep- meaning they stay on the bit while you position the work with the other hand.
Bath fans, btw, do not come with mounting screws. I've removed many that were hung using nails, or even romex staples.
Rust resistance? That black coating gives some protection- though I will not claim it is as effective as zinc. In any event, your typical wall cavity and attic are hardly corrosive environments. Even with all the salts in loosefill insulation, you need moisture for there to be rust - and if you have moisture, you have bigger problems.
Even when something comes with hardware ... be it screws, wire nuts, whatever .... the provided hardware is pure junk.
I had great friend, and great electrician back in Pa. We worked together often and Mac always had a pouch of drywall screws, but he never once used a driver to install them. He carried a 22 oz estwing, and as he hammered the screws in he'd chant along with the blows 'Screw, screw, screw, screw" 'There, it's done"
Cracked me up.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Around here, we call that the 'American screw-driver.' I guess that's just a random dig at you guys.
Thats OK, when we go out for some Moosehead, we get beer, not dirty knees.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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LOL - right on
have a friend who was working in fort macmurray back in the 70's who watched a recent immigrant homebuilder hammering in screws on a framing job which had required screws, rather than nails for framing. His bid was lowest (i guess) so here he was happily framing away, pounding in dem screws, saying,"I love dis country..."
Used to work for the company that invented "PowerMold" - the gray plastic enclosed tracks which are now widely used as a conduit substitute on the side of utility poles.
There are fastening slots on the edges of the tracks.
Recommended fastener was 2" x 1/4" galvanized lags - hammer driven.
If the track ever needed to be removed you could back the lags out with a ratchet wrench / cordless driver / impact etc. A whole lot easier than trying to pry out a nail while wearing spikes and a belt.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I am not a drywall specialist.
I consider hanging drywall as a necessary evil. I find finishing a much more satisfying activity -- namely because when I am finishing, I am visualizing the trim work, hanging the cabinets, etc........
The last job I did involved hanging about 50 - 12' sheets and I finally did the math.......
I have a Milwaukee drywall screw gun which uses loose screws and a Senco drywall screw gun which takes collated screws. I always assumed that the collated Senco screws were considerably more expensive than the 5 pound boxes of loose screws on a per screw basis. I don't do enough drywall to even consider buying 50 lb boxes.
I am pretty good at locking the Milwaukee gun in the "on" position and stabbing away, however, I am still considerably faster with the Senco collated gun.
Lo and behold, the price per 1-1/4" screw is within 2/100 of a cent for Senco collated vs 5 lb box screws! I bought the collated screws and gladly paid the .02 cent premium -- 1 penny additional for 50 screws.
Thought you might like to know that.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Rusty screw, rusty housing.
Indeed.
Makes me think of the story of the cabinetmaker, dealing with a cranky builder customer, after the plumber's bad joints under a kitchen sink cabinet caused leaking, which swelled and wrecked all the melamine-coated-particleboard parts of the cab that got soaked.
Builder was insisting that all future cabs be made with veneer-coated-plywood instead of MCP.
Cab maker says, "If the electrician had f*ck'd up the disposal wiring, and the cabinet had burned up, would you require me to make my cabinets fireproof?"
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
sorry, the boss forgot to tell me youd paid for the upgraded screw package. I'll fix that first thing monday.
That whole job was kind of tacky.
I agree. From where I was sitting, it was not even square to the room. And as was noted later, the duct was not insulated. Also, I liked the was the guy splintered the wood sheathing while drilling the hole for the outlet/damper.
He's probably the guy that used to do the Saturday demos at HD...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
And he hacked up the plaster pretty bad, and left the switch in the hall instead of in the bathroom. Maybe there was a tile job in the bath that would have been a problem.
As the old saying goes. "You get what you pay for".
Yeah, sparkies tend to butcher bathroom vent installs pretty badly. I've seen a couple installed with no ductwork.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The ductwork is for the HVAC guy, not the electrician. Most commercial jobs, they don't even hang the fan, they just hook 'em up.
And for the record, a sheetrock screw is just a wood screw. Most electricians that I know don't normally carry stainless steel or deck screws in their pouches. Most fixtures come with their own fasteners, but for some reason bath fans rarely do. Sheetrock screws are plentiful on a job, they are usually all over the floor.
Edited 5/2/2009 2:39 pm ET by excaliber32
Depends on who you ask, I suppose. And how is the HVAC guy supposed to hook up the ductwork when the sparky puts the unit in backwards, with the outlet facing away from the outside wall?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
"for the record, a sheetrock screw is just a wood screw. "No, it isn't. It's a drywall screw. Works fine for fastening drywall to framing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Then go to your local hardware store and find a #8 wood screw. Put that screw side-by-side with a sheetrock screw and other than maybe color (phosphate coated), you tell me what the difference is. You can hang sheetrock with deck screws, I've tried it (don't ask)....................
Drywall screws have very little engineered shear strength, especially wood drywall screws. That is the basis of the Piffin screw theory and it is well documented in the threads of Breaktime.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Drywall screws have no real specs -- that's the real problem. You can get some with good strength -- shear, tension, and torsion -- and others that break when you look at them. (Of course, standard wood screws have something of the same problem, even before they started making them all in China.)Deck screws are supposed to be made to some sort of (never explicitly stated) standard, and are on average superior in strength to drywall screws. But some snap off readily -- a real PITA when building a deck. From a general form factor POV of view, deck screws are virtually identical to drywall screws, however, and can, eg, be reasonably used to hang drywall -- it's more a matter of cost than function. In general deck screw manufacturers disavow any warranty for using their screws in shear (though they disavow any other warranty as well, so that doesn't count for much).Several brands of premium screws exist, made along the general lines of drywall/deck screws. These are made/tested to some sort of explicit spec, and the best of the bunch are superior to any other form of screw outside of aircraft fasteners. Using them for drywall, of course, would be throwing money away.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
' go to your local hardware store and find a #8 wood screw. Put that screw side-by-side with a sheetrock screw and other than maybe color (phosphate coated), you tell me what the difference is'
If you'd ever done that, you wouldn't need to ask the question.
Threads. Shape. Material. Weight. Yup, other than that, they're pretty much identical.
Threads:coarse
Head:bugle
Shape:uh..........screw shaped
Material:steel
weight:....................got me there.
Uh, jeezus forget about it!
Edited 5/3/2009 3:55 pm ET by excaliber32
"Threads:coarse
Head:bugle
Shape:uh..........screw shaped
Material:steel
weight:....................got me there.
Uh, jeezus forget about it!"
=====================================================
Well, they have different diameters, different number of threads per inch, different geometry, different steel, different heat treating, but other than that, you're right.
Just to stir the pot a bit ....
Did you know that a #4 radius countersink perfectly matches a bugle head?
"Shape:uh..........screw shapedMaterial:steelweight:....................got me there."LOL, with that kind of penetrating analysis, all diamond rings are just the same too.They all have ring shaped bands made of 'gold' and set with a compacted carbon stone for decoration.now why are some of then only a hundred bucks and others many thousands?And ask your gal if one is as suitable as another.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sssshhhhhh! Hush, she may be reading this!
That was a well thought out answer,and well said.
To be honest, I was told by a Home Depot employee that they were the same, and I haven't really put much more thought into it. And, in my defense, I've never really used a sheetrock screw for anything other than sheetrock.
Your education here has just begun! Never ever take information from an HD employee - they make it up on the run.Or was it that they make it up, and then run?....;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just noticed in your quote another item.he wants to compare the diff between a #6 SR screw with a #8 wood screw! The size alone makes quite a diff in cross section
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're totally wrong.Sheetrock screws are usually #6, have a bugle head, and have a different style of thread. They also snap really, really easily - I rarely back them all out when doing demo, but go along with my hammer and bang off the heads. Wood screws are normally brittle, but drywall screws much more so.
Drywall screws and standard wood screws are entirely different. This is your typical wood screw:
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The wood screw has a conical head, vs bugle head. The body of the screw between head and threads is the same diameter as the outer diameter of the threads. The threads are shallow, with relatively poor bite. A pilot hole is almost always needed, except for relatively small sizes.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Actually, there are two types of wood screw with different specs. The kind you show is a cut screw, usually made with an unhardened steel... which is why we like to curse them for camming out so easy. The other type (I think called rolled thread) is what we would normally associate with deck screws. These are hardened steel. Drywall screws fall into this category.
The most noticable difference between the two is that on the cut screw, the threads and shank are the same diameter. On a rolled screw, the threads are wider than the shank.
While a #8 cut screw will have a diameter of .131 inches (same as a #8 nail), a #8 rolled screw will be about .113 inches. This is why you shouldn't use modern #8 screws for construction, let alone a #6 drywall screw!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Lots of differences.Wood screw has a taperoften has a smooth shank near should portion.Wood screw is made with far stronger metal and thicker shank.The drywall screw is made just strong enough to handle the torque loads of compressing the shoulder to a paper and gysum material with threads and tip that cut sharp and easy for speed. The wood screw by contrast needs a predrilled hole or a self cutting tip that the drywall screw lacks, and it has less pitch in the thread.Some of these differences are easily seen with your eyeball exam and some less obvious, such as the strength of the metal they are made from, but that later is critical, since a drywall screw will fracture easily under stress, while a structural screw will not.if a drywall screw were made to the same standards of strength it would be far too expensive to use for hanging drywall and the hangers would be back to using nails.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, since the wood screw is cut rather than rolled it generally is weaker and is more inclined to fracture right at the top of the cut threads (because the cutting process concentrates so much stress there). It's no accident that virtually all of your "structural" screws are rolled, not cut.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I have to question some of the assertions made regarding screw making. Mind you, I've actually worked in one such place ....
Simply put, the equipment I had made every variety of screw and bolt ... from drywall screws to 'grade' bolts. While there may have been a time when such things were made by cutting shapes into bar stock (B&S 'screw machine'), those days are LONG gone. (Yes, I've worked a Screw machine too - but NOT to make screws!)
The fasteners start out as a coil of wire. This wire specially manufactured for the diameter needed to make the fastener. The first machine cuts the wire to length. The next operation hammers the head into shape, and also makes the recess for the driver. One big 'bang,' and the head is made.
If the fastener is to be like your usual bolt (or wood screw), the wire starts out at the shank diameter. When the head is made, the lower portion is stretched to a smaller diameter. If the fastener has threads 'fatter' than the shank, it's the shank portion that is stretched.
The next step 'rolls' or presses the threads into the blanks. Ever wonder why it's both difficult to find, and expensive to buy, fasteners longer than 3"? That's the size of the rolling dies. You now have something that looks like the finished product.
The next step is heat treating, followed by plating / coating. In between, there may even be another step to specially heat treat a specific part of the screw - say, the point.
It may sound simple, but an awful lot of technique goes into every step of the process. For example, the wire is usually made from a pretty unique alloy. The heat treating process can contain many steps and several heating cycles. Even coatings are continually evolving, and quality control can be quite elaborate.
So, why are there so many junk fasteners out there?
Part of it is the sheer quantity. When you're making something in the MILLIONS per hour, you're bound to have some bad ones slip through. Something as simple as a door opening to the room can result in a few thousand coming out slightly different. Also, we tend to remember the one that broke - and forget the thousands that didn't.
Another is, simply put, cost. There's a reason one screw costs 8x the price of a similar-sized screw. There are countless places in the chain where steps can be eliminated, simplifies, or glossed over. From the wire alloy to the size of the plating basket .... care to guess who uses the 'simplified' processes? The junk makers, that's who.
Let's look at two examples of drywall screws. First, there is USG, together with ITW. Together, they have spent boatloads on money fine-tuning the fastener: special dies, special alloys, differential heat treatment.
Little surprise that their screws cost 4X as much as the ones made by "Acme," in 'factories' scattered in every third-world country on earth. For all we know, these guys are making the screws fron recycled coat hangers, with used fry oil as their lubricant, and dies that someone else scrapped a decade ago.
"Ever wonder why it's both difficult to find, and expensive to buy, fasteners longer than 3"?"Never wondered that because I never had that problem.Even back in the mid seventies, I just ordered the length I needed up to five inches anyways - can't recall needing any longer than that.When you describe 'hammering' the screw head - that is actually called forging, is done at a controlled temperature, and has a support die for the wire, all of which are entirely different from 'hammering' on a screw to drive it in the field.I'm sure you know this, but didn't want your description to be misapplied by novice screw setters out there looking to justify their lack of screw tools
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OK, you sent me out rummaging among my junk bins to find screws. Of the "wood screws" I examined (all probably 20-25 years old, so no Chinese junk) I was surprised that, on close examination of the larger specimens (large enough for these aging eyes to resolve), probably 50% were unambiguously rolled, and 25% were ambiguous. But that leaves another 25% or so that appeared to me to be cut threads.Re the heads, all of the (again, larger) slotted screws I examined closely clearly had cut slots vs forged. Of course, the Phillips recesses are somehow pressed/forged.About half the screws (flat head and round head) showed signs of the head being machined after it was formed, primarily on the "back" of the head. It is of course hard to say how much material was machined away (I assume that the head was forged into rough shape and then machined to final form), but any machining in this area severely weakens the head.Basically, the conventional "wood screw" is a dumb design, maybe easy to manufacture on the old screw machines but with several inherent weaknesses -- lack of radius at the head, shallow threads, thick shank, blunt point, etc. The basic "drywall screw" design (which includes deck screws and most "premium" construction screws) is far better in virtually every aspect.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Have to disagree about 3" being the maximum length. Have driven more than my share of #14 X 6 wood screws with 3" shoulder and 3" tapered thread. Maybe you were implying thread length?
You understood correctly: I meant the entire length under the head.
The "standard" production equipment is made to hold "standard" size rolling dies that are roughly 3" x 6". Imagine two paperback books (one fixed, one sliding) with the thread and shank forms ground into them. Longer fasteners simply cannot be made on these machines.
So, to make longer fasteners, a different method must be used. Perhaps there are larger machines that use larger dies - or perhaps a different process is used. In either case, it's a much more expensive process - hence the price jump you see when the length exceeds 3".
Went out to the storage building and pulled out some #14x5 silicone bronze to examine, found that the threads were machined, my apologies! Now that I see all these fasteners, does anyone know someone that would want to buy approx. 500-1000 lbs of silicone bronze wood screws and machine screws and about 1000 lbs of the same in ss. Had these in storage for about 25 yrs.. I use them where most people use HD Galv. Came in handy with the new PT problems. Probably will just use them over time.
I don't even wanna be the one to say it and i ain't condoning it but I've seen heavy hanging kitchen cabinets filled with dishes stay put forever with drywall screws.
Just use a lot of em'....lol
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
I've seen heavy hanging kitchen cabinets filled with dishes stay put forever with drywall screws>>>>>>>>>>.
I think we all have seen that. Lord, I hope they hold!>G<
"ust use a lot of em'....lol"Like WorkshopJon, use four times as many instead of the rightest ones, eh?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>Like WorkshopJon, use four times as many instead of the rightest ones, eh?<<
Reminds me of an old nautical saying.....
"If you can't tie a good knot, just tie a lot of them!" :^)
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
The comparison to knots is appropriate.on board ship, it is important to be able to UNTIE the knot also, making that part of the definition of a good knot.So when folks use drywall screws for wood/wood connection, it is when they go to remove a screw that they find out how 'good' of a connection it was when the head comes off and leaves the shank broken behind.Something that bothers me with the hacks who use a hammer to drive a screw too. The brittle metal is fractured by the impacts from hammerheadharry's tool, and it is not doing the job he thinks it is. I had top let a guy teach himself that once after I found him using a hammer and galv SR screws instead of TECO nails on joist hangers.
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heh
See what you started! :o)
Yeah. I apologize. I just thought I would pull on Piffin's chain a little. Didn't mean to rattle whole cage.
No problemo! We need the refresher course from time to time
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
that floor I was working on...
Piffins to hold down the under layment and backer board...
all were corroded...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
At the risk of prolonging this screw misery, please pardon the ramblings of an old man.
A long time ago and I mean a long time ago. (BPT-before power tools) My introduction to the screw was an immediate hate relationship. (no love).
And not just wood screws. but all screws. They all had slotted heads. All screwdrivers were flat bladed. It was a real pain in the "arm" to keep the driver in the slot as you twisted and twisted.(no quick drilled pilot hole in them days).
And to use the famous "Yankee screwdriver" you had to really be skilled not to gouge, scratch and otherwise destroy whatever you were working on.
Then came the infamous S/R screw, at least in my life, that had a head design that allowed you to stay on the screw. They were readily available and seemed to be laying around everywhere. Add the power drill (corded in those days) and you had a winning combination.
It seems the screw industry was slow to develop a competing wood screw, allowing the S/R screw to become the screw for all "reasons" as it were. And as we all know, it's hard to break old habits.
I'm afraid Piffin, that it will take more than "just say no" Good luck.
I'm not sure what all that rambling meant, esp the last line.As far as your personal history with screws of many types, I too hated the old wood screws that required the patient foreplay of predrilling and carefull insertion to avoid damaging surrounding surfaces or fingers, but I have been able to buy and use structural screws with phillips heads just as long as I have been able to buy sheetrock screws. If you did not have them it was a lack of procurement rather than a lack of availability.Regardless of past history, we are now talking about today's available stock, and structural types have gotten better, while SR screws have become decidedly worse.
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Aw come on Piffin.
It's like Nancy Regan suggeted to eliminte the use of drugs. If someone offeres you a "merrywana" cigarret, "JUST SAY NO".
With all those S/R screw pushers out there, it is going to take more than your, "just saying no" to get them to stop using.
Don't know that I ever said that.What I AM doing is educating people why not use SR screws for anything but SR.After that, if they still wanna be idiots, it donna bothah me
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DW screws are for wimps!
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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Have to agree with most everything you have said regarding sr screws vs wood screws. Most people do not really know how to select the proper screw for a given application. For example, the purpose of the shoulder on a wood screw is to increase the shear strength at the joint interface between the two materials being fastened. The screw length needs to selected to insure this shoulder extends sufficiently into both pieces. In a prior business we use to build and rebuild large wooden motor and sailing yachts. I have spent many days driving silicone bronze wood screws into white oak frames(1,000+typical day). Too many miles on this body to do that much work overhead anymore.
I know the pain. In restoring 1800's pipeorgans, we'd have hundreds of slotted screws. Love them slivers that ya get. My driver of chioce was a bit brace and Yankee, those were the cats meow.
BTW. We have a poster here who's handle is HACKINATIT, maight wanna watch yer...ah, well..FRONT. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Love those old wooden pipe organs. The church I was raised in was pre-civil war and had a beautiful old wood pipe organ. Must have had 1,000 pipes or more. Wonderful tone! About 1970 the church in all its wisdom choose to replace that wonderful old organ with the newest state of the art aluminum pipe organ (3,000+pipes). Kinda like that mid 70's Urban Renewal that saw a lot of our historic buildings torn down. We'll save that rant for another day!Yeah, that handle (WHILEWEREATIT) explains where about 40% of our income is derived!
One of those handles that makes you wonder about the punctuation.
Is it
while we're at it
or
while we're a ...
kinda like the website for a pen company, pen island ....depends on where you put the spaces...