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Discussion Forum

Shellac as an undercoat/primer…

| Posted in General Discussion on January 10, 2004 06:13am

Hello to you all, happy belated new year.

Just a quicky so I can be sure that there haven’t been any recent groundbreaking developments in the painting world;  I have been recently re-discovering the positive attributes of shellac.  Makes a great sanding sealer.  Dries quickly, freezes those fibers so they can be sliced right off with a paper. Great. 

But can it be used under Latex paints? 

Particularly, I have a smaller library I am installing.  Due to factors which include weather and unheated shop spaces, this one was built in place.  But I am an old fan of oil-based paints, I’ve shot them most of the time-obviously not on this job. Further, to me, I’m still (okay maybe not a quicky) convinced that oil on cabinets, shelving-interior-is still the way to go.

So,   1) Is there a latex that can compete with oil…yet?-it’ll take some convincing-since I am indoors, and cannot shoot, nor since I do not wish to ‘pollute the joint’ with the oil aroma in any case.

And   2) if there is a latex that you think that will stand up to a set of library shelves/cabinets in a juvenile-ages’ bedroom, can I still use the shellac trick???

 

Thanks for the patience, I wouldn’t want to be the one who had to diagram those sentences (LOL)

 

Hunts

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Replies

  1. rjgogo | Jan 12, 2004 05:08am | #1

    I am pretty sure You can use shellac under latex  One of the sealing primers has it in it to seal things like pine knots. 

  2. User avater
    goldhiller | Jan 12, 2004 05:49am | #2

    Yes, you can use shellac under latex paint. Or at least I have on many occasions and never had a problem with adhesion as a result. To be on the safe side, I'd recommend using Zinnser's SealCoat (a ready to use from the can, dewaxed shellac).

    You could use one of the white-pigmented shellac stain-killing primers but the odor will be greater than that from "simple" shellac.

    As far as a latex to compete with oil-based paints........I'm not sure there's one out there that will yield the same durability, but I've been satisfied with Sherwin-Williams super-paint latex semi-gloss enamels and SW latex Pro-Classic (intended for kitchen cabs and the like). We used these in our home and so I get to see the performance on an everyday basis.

    Valspar makes some great paint also, but I havent tried their latex enamels on cabinets yet. I would expect excellent performance though.......or at least as much as you could expect from a latex.

    I'm not sure anyone makes a paint, oil-based or latex, that can stand up to a juvenile's testing regimen. <G>

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
  3. RW | Jan 12, 2004 07:42am | #3

    Goldhiller beat me to it. Absolutely you can use shellac (dewaxed) under paint. Great sealer / tie coat. And I also love Pro Classic. If you haven't used it, it looks and for the most part acts like oil, but it's all acrylic latex. Ideally, shooting it is the way to go. Uncle Sherwin apparently got tired of us whiners and reformulated things over a year ago and now it brushes pretty good too. I'd still cut it a little with floetrol just to keep the ridges out. Foam rollers do pretty good on flat expanses.

    Just as a side thought, you said you can't spray it, but . . . for your own sake, estimate the time it will take you to brush it and roll it. Now grab a handi masker and mask off the whole room so you won't worry about overspray. That's a half hour. Rent a pump with a fine finish tip. That's $40. Spray it, clean up, that's about 40 minutes. Return the pump, come back to the job, paints dry so pull down the plastic. Early lunch.

    "The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

    1. CAGIV | Jan 12, 2004 08:24am | #4

      RW,

      off subject a bit here

      You mentioned the foam rollers, ever tried the velour rollers?  at least personally I've had better luck using them over foam with S/W lacquer and poly acrylic from ben moore

      1. RW | Jan 13, 2004 02:48am | #6

        Velour? Hmm. Have to ask Bob about that. Never run across them. Now you're gonna tell me they're in the back of the paint store next to the satin and lace covers."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

        1. CAGIV | Jan 13, 2004 03:17am | #7

          no, they're next to the leather and latex... you know like yin and yang, hardcore/softcore ;-)

          seriously though, 1/8 nap and kinda spendy, well not really, 2-3 bucks each, but they're so darn small it seems spendy.  I actually clean and re-use these and I am adamantly opposed to wasting time cleaning covers

          http://www.whizzroller.com/whizz2/whizz/sidenap/velour.htm

          work like a charm on lac, poly, and enamel

          1. RW | Jan 13, 2004 07:49am | #8

            cool enough. I know a place that stocks all kinds of their stuff. I'll have to give it a look see.

            Sidetrack #2, kind of in theme here. So Jose is a pretty good worker, near as I am told. Enthusiastic, always turns in his paperwork and everything. I'm eating lunch with his boss and boss says "you know, I got looking at a gas receipt he turned in for reimbursement - you believe he thinks I'm paying for his Penthouse?"

            DOH! I think he musta forgot about that one."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

  4. Mooney | Jan 12, 2004 04:25pm | #5

    Top two responses are good .

    A little more though;

    I" shoot" , a lot of previously owned wood work. When i come into a house overspray is always a concern in remodeling. Its a different puppy that the rest of the litter . High volume low pressure and materials that the over spray drys in the air are choice for remodeling. Even though they are book shelves in this instance , you dont know whats been on them. I refinished a set of cabinets  last week that were very open grained oak . I think other than the common grese problem she used pledge which is a killer for laquer. Something like pledge has filled the grain over a 20 year period. Since there is no clear sealer out for such an application other than clear shellac , it was the top choice , but required varnish for top coats which was a drag .[24hr drying] Shellac is a good naterial to be used like a good tool in circumstances . Pigmented is a fine primer under latex or oil enamels , but not laquer .

    Tim Mooney

    1. DaveRicheson | Jan 13, 2004 11:55am | #9

      I know it is probably not acceptable to use in a remodel, but exylene will take the plege type furniture cleaner/wax out/off a wood finish. Sometimes it will lift the older varnish finishes, but does not bother lacquer..

      I have used it in a well ventilated shop, and once in a home where I could seal off the room I was working in. You also need a good organic (carbon type) filter for your respirator. The stuff is a suspected carcigen and will a mild anesthesia.

      Dave

    2. hankhunter | Jan 14, 2004 01:54am | #10

      THank you tim, I did want to refresh the original thread's content  by saying that these are brand new cabs. and shelves, still raw birch veneer 3/4 plywood, and soft maple frames. So if the others are correct, then I will be able to use the Latex after all.

      Agree better now?

      Respectfully, Hunts

      1. Mooney | Jan 14, 2004 04:02am | #11

        I never disagreed . I just gave you some information about choices is all using the shellac you liked.

        Since you mention they are new , I would laquer them myself and geter done . They make tinted white laquer you can tint . Its paint . Its the slickest job ever. Like factory and better.

        Tim Mooney

        Edited 1/13/2004 8:05:59 PM ET by Tim Mooney

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Jan 14, 2004 04:13am | #12

          I got a gallon of Sherwin-Williams WHite lacquer tint base..FOR free..In KY. Come an get it..I did a pickled oak kitchen last year all new oak cabs that I made..I used about i/2 cup of white..BUT I had to buy a GALLON..Still got it..any takers????

          BTW..Stuff is sweet, for that .

          1. CAGIV | Jan 14, 2004 06:45am | #15

            this tinted white lac, if you apply it, does it come out "white" can it be substatuded in place of white enamel on say closet shelves etc?

            more durable/cleaner looking?

          2. User avater
            Sphere | Jan 14, 2004 04:04pm | #19

            From what I know (which aint a whole lot at times) this is a white lacquer not just a tint base...BUT it is extremely heavy on the solids like paint.  To spray it I mixed a LITTLE bit with  regular gloss and misted coats on red oak that had been sealed with sanding sealer..too much spraying and it will start to look painted...I do know that if it was black , this is how one would acheive a "Piano " finish..many coats..as many as 12..levelled between coats.

            As fas as durable? Think about a piano, cleanable? same holds true.

            I think it may be excessive for a closet shelf, but depending on the desired results do not see any disadvantages to it..I think ya could brush a coat on (maybe add retarder) and then topcoat with clear..as mentioned Deft is great..

            I abhor latex paint on bookshelves, seen too many cases of books stuck to SOFT paint..so we are on to sumpthin here?

          3. CAGIV | Jan 15, 2004 01:02am | #20

            I looked a little on the local Sherwin Williams today and the people there were as useless as usual.  Finally got someone who new sorta what they were talking about and the best I could get out of them was, They have a 2 part system first step is some sort of vinyl sealer coat followed by a top coat of white lac, which may or may not be tinted to a different pastel color, they weren't real sure on that.

            Stopped by Benny Moore to pick up some other stuff and talked to my guy there, who is always very helpful, he pointed me to Iowa Paint.

            anyway long story short, they have a white tinted lac available and I got a gallon on order to play with, ~20 bucks a gallon so it's comprable if not cheaper than enamel.  My thinking is that if it comes out smooth and looks truly white with a few coats I can save time over enamel.  Multiple coats in a day that dry fast vs. the one coat I can get out of spraying enamel and having to wait for it to dry. 

            Guess I'll see how it goes.

          4. User avater
            Sphere | Jan 15, 2004 02:20am | #21

            Yeah Buddy, that oughta work fine. One thing I'd watch tho, is to not build up too much unless the substrate is stable..i.e. not questionable moisture content pine..any plywood ought to take multiple coats without a hitch,, Vinyl seal is what I use, and if ya have a light (birch, maple,) substrate shooting on 3 coats of white, PRETTY wet coats, or brushed maybe 2 , should hide the grain and level well..and it may be too glossy for your likes, I'd steel wool it down and knock off the shine,,  lemme know how it works in practice..my shop is DOA till the house is closed uop better..Duane

          5. Mooney | Jan 15, 2004 03:52am | #22

            Email me if you have any questions about it . Im an old hand with it.

            Tim Mooney

          6. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jan 15, 2004 05:40am | #23

            I have asked about a couple of SW products and they have said that I have to go their commerical distribution center. There is one down on Front Stree in the Big City if I remember correctly.

          7. CAGIV | Jan 15, 2004 05:46am | #24

            Thanks Bill, I might call there tomorrow, the local store is a joke here, all part-time people with no clue on the product they sell or made by the company.  Ben Moore on the other hand, here has some of the most knowledgable staff of any supplier I've ever dealt with, but they don't carry what I wanted.

            So just in case anyone's ever in need of paint in Lawrence KS, I wanted to plug the Benny Moore guys.

        2. hankhunter | Jan 14, 2004 04:59am | #13

          Tim,

          THanks again.  The only Laquer that I have any experience with is the brushable kind from Deft.  At least I think that was lacquer.  What kind are you referring to?

          Hunts

          1. User avater
            goldhiller | Jan 14, 2004 05:05am | #14

            You are correct, sir. Deft is nitrocellulose lacquer with powerful retarders that produce slow enough drying that brushmarks have time to level out.

            Edit: And the slow drying characteristics also provides enough time for any moisture to escape if sprayed in humid conditions and helps prevent "lacquer cotton" result if sprayed in extremely dry conditions.

            Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

            Edited 1/13/2004 9:10:28 PM ET by GOLDHILLER

          2. Mooney | Jan 14, 2004 07:05am | #16

            I buy sterling laquer . SW has it too and Im not sure who else . I never saw the use in brushable laquer except to match the spray laquer . Ive used it on windows , but thats about it for brushable laquer. The real stuff is hot and goes off in five minutes . Yea spray laquer.

            Tim Mooney

          3. DougR | Jan 14, 2004 07:35am | #17

            I've gotten great results with Deft lacquer. Apply it with a dense foam roller, immediately wipe it with a cheap foam brush to knock out the bubbles, and it looks awful close to sprayed.

          4. hankhunter | Jan 14, 2004 02:56pm | #18

            But have you ever tinted it?  I'm looking for white.

            hunts

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