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shellac for color, then…?

msm | Posted in General Discussion on September 12, 2005 06:00am

am creating a new topic cause i’m running out of time; didn’t want my specific question to get buried in shellac blues and possibly not get answered.

about to sand my old oak floors. currently they have the original shellac and are a very pretty reddish honey/sorghum color that i know i will not be able to duplicate with stains.
however, i have decided that oil based polyurethane is the smartestfinish, care-wise.

once sanded, can i put a first coat (or 2 or 3) of shellac on, for color, then when dry, lightly sand and final seal with the polyurethane?

i intend to start on the floors later this week, once the electricians have finished. thank you!

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  1. User avater
    BillHartmann | Sep 12, 2005 06:03pm | #1

    Yes, but make sure that it is dewaxed shellac.

  2. BryanSayer | Sep 12, 2005 07:15pm | #2

    You probably had orange shellac, BTW. Shellac "ages" very nicely, particularly orange shellac. It will not look the same when you first put it on, and I do not know if it will age the same with poly on top.

    Also, poly can be tinted. I like the TransTint dyes, but I've never tried it for a floor.

  3. cynwyd | Sep 12, 2005 07:27pm | #3

    Dura Seal #210 topped with Street Shoe is a nice way to go.

    Or the Street Shoe manafactur has Basic Emulsion as a first coat.

    Street Shoe is bulletproof.

    http://www.basiccoatings.com



    Edited 9/12/2005 12:31 pm ET by cynwyd

    1. msm | Sep 12, 2005 09:37pm | #4

      thanks for the advice. i figured curing an oxidation probably had enhanced the color, but i don't think i want to go wiyh shellac all the way... or do i? please remind me about future care and whether the finish holds up well, or does it tend to need frequent polishing? i just pulled up the carpet (and nails/staples), so what's there now looks pretty, but has been protected for decades.
      more decisions to make...

      1. painter | Sep 13, 2005 02:09am | #5

        you can use shellac to get the color you want  then seal with zinnser SEAL COAT (dewaxed shellac) as a barrier coat then top with any finish you want ,like poly

      2. Danno | Sep 13, 2005 02:11pm | #7

        Are you asking about using just shellac? I've never seen it, but I think it would scratch like mad and wear out quickly. I worked fixing up a house for sale where there all the woodwork was shellac. The dog had scratched up the window sills down to bare wood.  Shellac will be ruined by any spills of alcohol and will not do very well with water. I would definitely use dewaxed and top coat it with something else--varnish or one of the things suggested here. As someone else noted, there are many colors of shellac--from (in order of lightness) super blond, blond, orange, garnet, seedlac, buttonlac and I'm sure there are more.

        1. Kowboy | Sep 13, 2005 04:22pm | #8

          All:

          I refinished a shellac floor with more orange shellac and a coat of paste wax on top. It looked and performed beautifully for many years. If you keep it waxed, alcohol will not affect shellac.

          Unlike polyurethane, it was apparently unnaffected by sunlight. When you go to refinish, which you will eventually do, good luck stripping the poly.

          Strip the shellac with TSP and/or alcohol. Apply the shellac and wax. Forget it and it looks and performs beautifully. And strips easily next time.

          Joe

          1. msm | Sep 13, 2005 04:43pm | #9

            i realise the poly is "forever", which is why i was against it before. but now i am thinking more about maintenace, which i want a bare minimum of. when finished, we plan to live in this house 1 or 2 years, tops, then move out and turn it into rental property. (this neighborhood is not your "nightmare" rental neighborhood, most tenants being decent faculty and grad students affilliated with a nearby uni.)
            i want it to look nice and be foolproof to maintain. do not want to be waxing regularly; just vacuuming and mopping as needed.can y'all provide some favored companies or sources for these shellacs and other products? all i'm familiar with is varathane and minwax. what's button shellac?

          2. Danno | Sep 13, 2005 08:14pm | #15

            Button shellac is a less refined version of shellac (has more impurities and I think it should be filtered) and is darker. Any woodworking catalog like Woodcraft or Rocklers will have various grades of shellac, as will many paint stores.

            I guess I stand corrected as far as its durability. I do like the looks of shellac. And it is good for sealing in stains and odors. Plus if you do scratch it, a brush with alcohol or a little more shellac will re-amalgamate it so the scratch disappears (if the shellac your repairing isn't too old or dirty).

            As far as how to put it on a floor--I don't know. Shellac can be sprayed (at least it comes in spray cans), but I would think on a floor you'd use a lot of cans and the overspray from a gun might be messy. Maybe someone else has ideas.

      3. desertrat | Sep 13, 2005 05:23pm | #10

        How long has the current finish been down? There's your answer. Shellac is a lot tougher than most people give it credit for.

        1. msm | Sep 13, 2005 05:35pm | #11

          i understand that it's tough, i'm not familiar with the maintenance though. my floors have had that shellac probably since the house was new in 1935. but when i bought the house in 1983, the floors were covered with wall-to wall carpet that i have just pulled up, so i'm not familiar with how it wears and what maintenance is best.
          the look i want is a nice satiny (or glossy) shine that does not dull easily; that does not depend on frequent waxing to look nice.
          it appears to be shellac, but what i don't know is what kind? how was it applied? how many coats neccessary?the house we are in now is similar era and the floors were refinished well prior to our moving in. they never look good; stay dull in traffic areas. i don't know what the previous owner who did this used, but i do not want to repeat his method.

          1. BryanSayer | Sep 13, 2005 05:59pm | #12

            Shellac was certainly used in the past as a floor finish. Personally, I believe that it is more brittle than poly, and will craze and crack as the wood expands and contracts. But the big issue with shellac on a floor is how to apply it? I've been doing some trim with shellac, and there is no room for error. It dries so quickly that you cannot go back over it or you will have brush marks. And it takes a lot of coats, particularly for a floor. So I'm not sure how it would be applied to a floor.As for wax (regardless of floor finish) the issue is repairability of the finish. If you use wax and need to add another coat of finish or do a spot repair of scratches, you will have to completly strip the wax, which is a thankless task. Especially with poly, screening the finish after a couple of years and adding another coat is a great way to extend the life of the finish and have great looking floors (especially when you go to sell). Many floor finishers will tell you not to wax so that they don't have to deal with it later. But wax does help maintain the finish. So the call is up to you, just be aware of the implications.

          2. msm | Sep 13, 2005 06:28pm | #13

            thanks- that's what i'm trying to do, be aware of all the angles, and you all are really giving me great advice to consider.i'm buying a quart of zinser shellac from an art supply store today to play with...

          3. donk123 | Sep 13, 2005 06:51pm | #14

            Go to a paint store or a hardware store, not an artist supply. You might get a different dilution.

  4. joeh | Sep 13, 2005 02:40am | #6

    Lotsa colors.

    http://www.shellac.net/

    Joe H

  5. ChrisB | Sep 14, 2005 12:26am | #16

    Shellac can definitly go under polyurathane, but ONLY dewaxed shellac. One poster suggested covering a waxed shellac with a coat of dewaxed shellac. That won't work. Shellac melts into any shellac undercoats, so your coat of dewaxed shellac will be contaminated with the waxed under coats.

    Most colored shellacs such as blonde and orange are waxed. The best source of colored dewaxed shellac is http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. Check them out.

    Chris

    1. msm | Sep 14, 2005 04:05am | #17

      thanks for the great info chris. darn; i was wanting the orange color as it is what the floor looks like now and is so pretty.
      chris, it sounds like you know a good deal about shellac--- would you give your opinion of the pros and cons of a pure shellac finish? and how many coats for a good thick surface.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Sep 14, 2005 04:30am | #18

        Well you can get the organe dewax'd. It just that you have to mix your own.Either from Jeff Jewitt or that shellac.net that was listed above.

      2. ChrisB | Sep 14, 2005 04:59am | #20

        Thanks for the complement, but please don't confuse me with an expert. Most of what I know about shellac I got from putting into practice what I learned in the last year on Knots over at Fine Woodworking.

        Shellac has a lot going for it- good color, very forgiving, fast drying, easy to repair.

        What it does not have going for it is easily damaged by alcohol, not very wear resistent, and not good when wetted by water. I'd lean toward shellac under a couple of coats of polyurathane that had a week or so to cure before seeing heavy traffic.

         

        Chris   

  6. Floss | Sep 14, 2005 04:49am | #19

    msm,

    If you want an orange shellac then Button is a good way to go. There are two kinds of button you will find , Kusmi and Bysacki. The names are there to denote the time of year that each one was harvested.

    Lemon is also another form of button but with more of a golden hue.

    Blonde and Super blonde, have very little color and no wax. You can also get a bleached shellac which is absolutely clear.

    The Lemon and Button can be purchased with or without wax.

    Regular oil based/alkyd varnish can be used over waxed shellac without adhesion problems. Polyurethane cannot.

    The key to applying shellac is to flow it on and not to overbrush. It does dry quickly so be aware of how you apply it.

    You can remove lap marks by buffing the area with a slightly dampened cloth with denatured alcohol. Use a quick buffing motion and don't stop the pad on the surface.

    Shellac is a very forgiving finish. Since it is soluble in alcohol any drips or runs can be blended in after it dries

    I would suggest a couple of coats of a 2# cut of dewaxed orange shellac with a poly topcoat. If you just want shellac then use about 4 or 5 coats and wax.

    As stated before shellac is quite durable once it cures and probably the easiest finish to repair.

    You will need a good natural bristle brush to apply shellac. The alcohol will destroy foam brushes and polyester.

    I attached a photo of a few different kinds of shellac that I normally use to help illustrate the different colors available. Garnet is a dark amber and seedlac is the most un-refined ,other than stick lac, and generally has bug and twig bits.

    J.P.

    http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
    1. msm | Sep 14, 2005 04:57pm | #21

      thaks for the great advice guys!
      but JP- i am confused here by a contradiction:
      quote from JP- "Regular oil based/alkyd varnish can be used over waxed shellac without adhesion problems. Polyurethane cannot... ....I would suggest a couple of coats of a 2# cut of dewaxed orange shellac with a *poly* topcoat."
      i am assuming when you said the second "poly", you meant the 'regular oil basd /alkyd varnish"?
      my question- i guess i don't know the difference between polyurethane and a 'regular oil based/alkyd varnish"-- i tend to lump them under the term "poly".so, my question- how does a 'regular oil-based /alkyd varnish' hold up to foot traffic? i know poly does well and is really low maintenance. can you name a product you'd personally recommend? pm me if naming brands is against posting guidelines. thanks.quote: "The key to applying shellac is to flow it on and not to overbrush. It does dry quickly so be aware of how you apply it."
      i had hoped to pour a small pool onto the floor and spread it on with a pad applicator on a pole in small areas in the direction of the boards. would this work instead of a brush?

      1. Floss | Sep 14, 2005 05:39pm | #22

        msm,You read correctly about the varnish. Alkyd varnish is the old style of oil and resins used as a protective finish. Polyurethane is a modified oil varnish that has urethane resin to give it more abrasion resistence. Because of the urethane the poly wil not dry as hard as a true alkyd varnish which is why it scratches less. An alkyd varnish dries harder than urethane and is therefore more susceptible to scratches.These differences are what make one finish more suitable than another in certain applications. Poly is good for floors because of its toughness. However the urethane resin is what makes it incompatible with waxy shellac. Alkyd varnish is used more for furniture since you can rub it out more easily than poly and it doesn't matter if the shellac undercoat has a small bit of wax.I have always used a brush with shellac. I would not pour it on since the stuff dries so fast that you will end up with a sticky mess before you can probably spread it all. I would cover the lambswool applicator with an old t-shirt to help the shellac flow a little better off the pad and avoid pooling or lap marks. I would dip the pad in the finish and then squeeze out the pad so that it was wet but not dripping. The shellac will dry so fast that you should be able to to 3 coats in a day very easily. I woul wait abou 2 hours between coats before recoating so that the finish will not be too soft.The varnish I use is called Old Masters I have also used Behlen's Rock Hard Table Top Varnish both work well. I have always used Minwax polyurethane. It is available pretty much everywhere and is a good product.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

        1. msm | Sep 14, 2005 06:09pm | #23

          hmmm- a previous posted said it would fail to do -1st layer waxy shellac, 2nd layer unwaxed shellac, 3rd layer poly-- because the shellacs would melt together and still resist the poly.
          BUT
          how about 1st layer waxy shellac, 2nd layer Old Masters varnish, then top layer poly??

          1. Floss | Sep 15, 2005 01:36am | #24

            msm,That would work. Make sure to use a gloss varnish and then topcoat with which ever sheen you desire gloss or satin.Most commercial shellac you buy is dewaxed. I think Zinsser has an orange. Look on the can. It can be found at most hardware stores and big boxes.Although to simplify the process, order dewaxed button from Homestead finishing. If you mix your own you know it is fresh and will perform as expected. Then you can use poly over top. One less can of finish to buy.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

          2. msm | Sep 15, 2005 07:01am | #25

            the more answers i get, the more questions i have, LOLwhy do i need to have the intermediate layer, the oil/alkyd varnish, be glossy? is it about adhesion or is it about visual clarity in the finished product.? just curious. i would have assumed a duller finish would provide better ahdesion to whatever went on top, but i don't know. is it that, or are you saying that multiple layers of satin will accumulate a cloudiness?
            And-- i don't understand how the harder product scratches easier (?).
            i would assume a softer product would be open to mar easier. my only concern is that the finish be the best at not getting dull (from scuffs, not dirt) in the traffic areas too frequently.i certainly don't mind using only 2 products instead of one. i'll keep checking for a dewaxed orange (i'm not seeing one on the zinsser website, but i can't seem to pull up any shellac pages besides the clear and amber, and searching 'orange shellac freezes my browser. ??). i can't find any shellac locally at home depot or flooring or hardware stores, which is why i finally went to the art store to get the only canned shellac that seems to be in town. just a little jar to practice technique with.BTW, shellac.net sells a retarding medium that slows shellac drying time. does anyone know if this would cause other problems considering how i want to use it under other products?

          3. desertrat | Sep 15, 2005 05:23pm | #26

            Zinnser Amber is orange shellac. The HD here carries it.

          4. User avater
            BillHartmann | Sep 15, 2005 05:30pm | #27

            But that is a waxed shellac.No Zinser has the Seal(all?) which a dewax shellac, but it is "clear".

          5. msm | Sep 15, 2005 05:36pm | #28

            that's what i'm discovering- it looks like i'll be ordering off the internet.

          6. desertrat | Sep 16, 2005 05:32pm | #31

            My mistake. Personally I mix my own for the furniture etc. that I build.
            There's several things about shellac that I like:
            a) it is fast drying
            b) it is easily repairable
            c) there's a wide variety of colors availableIf you're not topcoating it with anything, keep it waxed and it will give you many years of service. Even on a floor. The only two enemies of shellac are water and alcohol.
            Even if you wax it, a repair can easily be done and you don't have to worry about whether your shellac is waxed or unwaxed. It will even work to bridge the modern refinishers bugaboo of silicone.

          7. BryanSayer | Sep 15, 2005 05:43pm | #29

            Personally, I don't find the Zinsser amber to be as true of an "orange" as actually orange. But I also don't know if these labels are really accurate or consistent across brands. My experience with orange now is that it goes on a much lighter color than the 105 year old stuff already on. But I have no idea how much of this is age, vs if orange shellac in 1900 was different than stuff now.BTW, a high gloss floor will not stay that way. It is the least common finish in homes, according to the floor people I used. They said they even had people select high gloss and then had them come back and put a matte finish over top of it because they didn't like the high gloss.

          8. desertrat | Sep 16, 2005 05:33pm | #32

            You're right, that's why I mix my own. I will probably have 3 or 4 different mixes sitting on the shelf, so that I can pick the right one for the job at hand.

          9. Floss | Sep 15, 2005 06:01pm | #30

            msm,Your right about the clarity. The satin varnish and poly have deglossers in them that, with multiple coats, may obscure the wood slightly. Use a gloss for the initial coats and a satin at the end if you want a satin finish. The urethane in polyurethane makes the finish "tougher" by allowing it to have slightly more elasticity than an alkyd varnish. This helps the poly resist scratching better than a varnish since the surface will abrade rather than scratch. This is why you can rub out or polish an alkyd varnish to a glossy sheen and not polyurethane. The urethane tears on the surface rather than cuts so it is difficult to get an even scratch pattern for rubbing out. An alkyd varnish is harder than polyurethane therefore it is easier to abrade/cut with abrasives and therefore can be polished more uniformly but will also show scratches more easily. Are you confused yet?Therefore the urethane will wear better than the alkyd varnish.I have ordered shellac from Liberon(shellac.net) before. The have some of the best prices but their supply is spotty. The shellac retarder you speak of is, I believe, isopropanol. You can use isopropyl alcohol from the drug store for the same thing. Just get the 90% grade. Isopropanol may leave the shellac film soft so I don't know if I would use it in your case. Or at least test it out before committing.How many square feet are we dealing with here?If one gallon is enough to cover your floor with 2 coats then buy 2 lbs of shellac and a gallon of alcohol and mix it yourself since you are having a tough time finding the ready mix.I think Minwax makes a sanding sealer that is a 3# cut of shellac. You will have to look on the can. I don't think it is orange though.I think the Amber you found is orange shellac. They changed the name. It used to be sold as orange shellac. At least that is what I recall.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

          10. Rebeccah | Sep 16, 2005 08:45pm | #33

            And-- i don't understand how the harder product scratches easier (?).

            i would assume a softer product would be open to mar easier.

            From http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~wfgale/intro_metals/section3.htm#two

            The “hardness” of a material is a measure of the resistance to plastic deformation.

            Shellac is "harder" in that it doesn't deform when you apply an external force -- it doesn't dent when you hit it with a hammer. However, it is also more brittle:

            The “toughness” of a material is a measure of how much energy can be absorbed by the material before failure. ...brittle materials can have a high strength, but have negligible toughness.

            In other words, if you hit the shellac with a hammer, it will not dent, but it will shatter.

            Rebeccah

          11. msm | Oct 05, 2005 09:16am | #34

            hey there painter- way back in post #6 you said to use zinsser seal coat and then i could polyurethane over it- this was a good answer, and i finally decided that's what i'll do. problem was twofold: 1) i couldn't find any in my city and 2) i was having trouble contacting zinsser (no phone # on can and trying to get to their website kept crashing my computer). i finally did get thru to them today and they confirmed your advice, and also managed to look up the one and only store in the city that carries it-- i got there and they had one can! got that part done today and hope to do the poly tomorrow.the rest of the posts have also been extremely informative. i've enjoyed learning about shellac and re-connecting with it. i remember using it for crafts in grade school. i specifically remember making crosses out of toothpicks in my kindergarten sunday school class, and shellacing them when finished.

          12. painter | Oct 06, 2005 02:09am | #38

            Glad to help LMK how it works out.

            It took a while and some proding to get my local store to carry it . Now he sells a ton of it! I use it for a sanding sealer for all finishes and a barrier coat .

          13. Jer | Oct 05, 2005 01:48pm | #35

            How about considering an oil finish? It's tougher than shellac and doesn't have that built up gloppy look of poly. It penetrates the wood and makes it hard,and you can color it too. Paste wax it and you have a gorgeous look.

          14. msm | Oct 05, 2005 05:41pm | #36

            what about the maintenance on the finish you suggest? the whole point of my using polyurethane is that i don't want to have to use wax and work hard to maintain a nice finish

          15. Jer | Oct 06, 2005 12:34am | #37

            Oh, ok. I must have gotten confused. I thought you wanted to do shellac...or maybe you want to use poly and just get the color. Whatever, but yeah, use poly.
            Oil is quite beautiful and can be waxed. It is a penetrant instead of a surface type finish and tends to show the wood's natural grain better. If it gets scratched , it can be re stained and re oiled unlike poly. Poly over all is a more protective finish though, it's tougher. Good luck.

          16. user-51823 | Oct 02, 2007 09:12pm | #39

            i never posted my results as i went straight to the next project.but THANKS to all- the floors came out great!will be back with pix-

            Edited 10/2/2007 2:12 pm ET by msm-s

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