I’m trying to figure out a plan for trimming out
this 1970’s contemporary we bought.
The original trim is El’ Cheapo clamshell. So kind of starting from
scratch.
We feel pretty certain a clear finish is the way to go. Probably
fairly simple design but with a better grade of wood.
The problem is the house full of Anderson casements and sliders
that are of course pine.
If you were going to trim it in say cherry how would you finish
the pine to match or at least compliment?
Oh yeah, just tried a test with shellac. to yellow…
Replies
Countdown to Frenchy ... 5 .... 4 ...... 3 ...... 2 ...... 1 ........
You spoke of the Devil not me ;)
Seal with seal coat ( dewaxed clear shellac) diluted 50/50. Stain with stain of choice, even Minwax works OK for this..then shoot with Lacquer to lock it in. Deft is simple, and readily avail. Thin it depending on your spray rig, or you can brush it pretty well.
Go with Red Mahogany for OLD cherry look..newer cherry? Experiment with small 1/2 pt cans. I use waterbased base concentrates from way back when, but if I had no choice, the Minwax works.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
So the seal coat will take care of the
pine-stain headaches?
I've had nothing but trouble with stain and pine. This is my first Shellacking, so dilute with straight
alcohol?
Edited 8/2/2008 7:26 pm ET by Henley
Yes and Yes. The "conditioner" sold is actually an OIL base ( with mineral spirits vehicle) and it is not terribly effective in the "Splotch" dept. I used it 2 times, and was not impressed. Sealcoat ( by Zinnser) is excellent stuff, can even be used as a top coat.
ANY shellac is dissolved in denat alcohol. So the common variety is fine, you can get "higher grade" Methyl and ethyl's but garden variety is what I use.
You may want scuff sand w/220 after seal coat..gives the stain some tooth and knocks off any nibbies that may pop up or dust boogers.
You can also top coat w/poly if you want to..I just don't often employ poly for much, dries a little too slow for my likes, I am often finishing in the dusty environ or out in the buggy yard..every damm flying critter in the county finds me if I am using a slow drying finish.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Cool,
Thanks I'll give it a try.
I don't use poly much either, it looks like plastic to me.
I thought about Waterlox but the dry time would kill me
on the doors.
Gel stains work well in this situation, on top of a seal coat of shellac. The exact amount for the seal coat is flexible, but shoot for 1 to 1 1/2 pound cut. So if starting with say 1 gallon of 3 pound cut shellac (the standard off the shelf pre-mixed stuff) add 1 to 2 gallons of denatured alcohol. Try to mix only as much as you are going to use, as the alcohol will absorb water over time.Try for a gel stain that is slightly lighter than you want for a final finish, but of the correct hue (color). Then apply one finish coat of whatever you want (nitrocellulose lacquer is a good choice). If the color is still too light, add an appropriate tint to the next coat. I like the transtint dyes. Keep building up to the color you want.
These are EXCELLENT Gels. I have vast exp. with them, hell, I helped the originater MAKE them.
Clearwater Color Company - Port Chester, NY
Smooth & Simple Wood Stains by Clearwater Color Company are water based, thixotropic, non film-forming penetrating dye stains. ...clearwatercolor.com/products.asp - 10k - <!---->Cached - Similar pages<!---->Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Get a copy of Fine Woodworking that just came out this week. There is a good article with lots of test panels. The test was on cherry, splotch-prone it its own right, but shellac seemed to be the preferred solution.
"Seal with seal coat ( dewaxed clear shellac) diluted 50/50. Stain with stain of choice, even Minwax works OK for this..then shoot with Lacquer..."Lacquer over shellac? I thought they were incompatible with one another.
BruceT
I've done it for years, never an issue.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Lacquer over shellac? I thought they were incompatible with one another.
That's one of the good things about shellac, it can be used with so many different finishes.
When I do alder work I always coat with a diluted mix of shellac before any stain work, then I follow with another coat of shellac and then my final coats of either waterbase lac or varnish, poly..........
There are some people that will use Zinser Shellac, meaning waxed, and still coat with water based lac or poly and get by with it, I've tried it on a few insignificant pieces and didn't have any problem but because I usually mix my own shellac I get de-waxed just to cover my a$$.
Doug
"...another coat of shellac and then my final coats of either waterbase lac or varnish, poly..."Waterbase is not lacquer, it is a fast-drying waterborne acrylic emulsion.Nitrocellulose lacquer will dissolve only in ketones or esters and can be reduced with mixtures of ketones, esters and diluents like alcohols and some fast-drying aromatic hydrocarbons.BruceT
Nitrocellulose lacquer will dissolve only in ketones or esters and can be reduced with mixtures of ketones, esters and diluents like alcohols and some fast-drying aromatic hydrocarbons.
Bruce, I understand all that but I was giving examples of what I typically do! I have seen and used (albeit seldom) shellac with lac. with good results.
Doug
That's good to know. Perhaps the incompatibility I learned about from makers of lacquer had more to do with the fact that they made lacquer sanding sealers and not shellac.
BruceT
DougU
I used to be a big, big, fan of lacquers. What I liked best about them is their reparability. Another words over spray or runs could be dealt with by careful sanding.
Lacquers also used to be among the fastest drying finishes..
Until I met shellac.. Now I have a new mistress <grin> excuse me if I wax eloquently about her..
Speaking of wax, you'll learn that very many Professional antique restorers and conservators use Bri-wax, both as a stand alone finish and as a protector or sacrificial finish over shellac.
If you've never used it, you are missing out on a very crucial ingredient in Fine Finishing. Shellac alone is lacking without it's protective coat of wax.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere.
Oh absolutely, wax is definately called for on every finish if you hope for it to remain looking good..
I'm not familar with Briwax I am a fan of that old standby carnuba wax.. (I found out that's what Stickley sells for their furniture)
Tell me about briwax. Does it have silicones? how is it to apply? (you wear out your arm applying Carnuba) what softners does it use if any.
Briwax... is volitile stuff, it is a Tolulene based wax, it will burn into the shellac and become a part of it ( as with the wax in the final coat of shellac), you don't buff it with rags, you use a stiff "shoe type" brush, to bring the luster out..when the tols' evap. , you now have a hard ( carnuba type) shielding layer, and yes it can be shellaced over again, it becomes the "depth" that you percieve, yet not gummy like softer layered waxes can. The bee's wax gives a workability, the carnuba adds life long hardness..half the work..
Cli ck the picture and you should go to the site, it is available in a few tints to help with that blending of colors that we run into in the field, I have the wax in 4 shades..like shoe polish. Which BTW is a great touch up fix, albeit a softer film.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Isn't carnuba a 'hard' wax? These are generally for finishes like tung oil, where there is no protective coat.We use Johnson's.
Man this got serious all of a sudden!
I can't tell ya how much I appreciate everyone's opinion
and attempt to help me out.
Thank you ALL.
I couldn't agree more with the philosophy of being true to
your raw material. I work with stone, clay and wood, and they
are all beautiful because they already are.
BUT,
I didn't make this house and I didn't choose the wood for the
windows and doors.
So, what you do is learn and do the best ya can.
The trim will be a clear, natural finish. Rich in color and texture.
The doors and windows are pine.
That's all I know at this point, all options are open. I ran around town today but fell short on De-waxed shellac, so
I'm already falling behind this conversation.
The Gel coats sound interesting, but again I'm in the dark.
I'm listening and following through with some tests.
So thanks
ChuckPS
Shere, you have to give it away.
Give it away all the time and with no thought to
the cost to you. Sucks I know, but thems the rules.
Edited 8/5/2008 7:14 pm ET by Henley
Any decent paint store, and both HD and Lowe's carry the Zinnser SealCoat de-waxed shellac.
Brayan Sayer,
Oh yes absolutely! Carnuba is an extremely hard wax that frankly wears me out every time I apply it.. there are plenty of waxs out there like Johnsons that contain softners to make it much easier to apply and frankly are fine for most applications.
Please don't get me started on the debate between frequent easy to apply waxes and one really hard wax applied less often.
I'm absolutely convinced that sometimes the hard way is the easy way and the easy way winds up being the hard way.. Since it can't be conclusively proven in my life time we simply have to go with what makes us feel good..
"There are some people that will use Zinser Shellac, meaning waxed, and still coat with water based lac or poly and get by with it, I've tried it on a few insignificant pieces and didn't have any problem but because I usually mix my own shellac I get de-waxed just to cover my a$$."There ain't no such thing.Zinsser is the manufacture.The product name is Bulleye's Shellac. And it is has wax. And is available in clear and amber.But they also make SealCoat. That is a clear unwax shellac sold specifically for sealing and over coating.http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=31
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=72
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
If you make your own shellac, you can almost eliminate any wax in it.
After its fully dissolved, just let the dissolved shellac sit until the wax settles to the bottom, then decant the shellac off.
I think you can also buy shellac flakes already de-waxed.
Zinnser happens to be one of the few manufacturers of already dissolved shellac. But a lot of purists will prefer to make their own. I understand really fresh shellac is better than what Zinnser sells, but I've never compared the two.
Ok, let's muddy the debate further.
When we made Smith Bass's we use a catalyzed lac for finish. It is bullet proof an NOT readily repaired, using same.
What we did for "after spray" touch up was use Behlens Shellac ( I think) flakes in Behlens solvent..we'd mix that rather thick and using a mirror as a pallet, add dye pigments as needed to get the color dead nuts on. A few dabs to fill voids or pockmarks, and then grain it in with a hair..yes, a HAIR..I'd use an eyelash and tweezers.
I don't think the Beh-sol ( solvent) burnt in much in cat lac, but the repairs were ( not often) then buffed with black wax. I will attest, they beccome in-fu=king -visable to the naked eye..Morado, Ebony, Walnut, Maple, Koa, were our face woods..I dare anyone to find a flaw in a Smith Bass.
Just watch Leno..his band bassist plays a Smith, look for the pearl "S" on the head stock.
BTW mixing colorants on a mirror gives truer defintion of what the finished touch up will represent in ambient or stage light. A shame stage light runs the gamut from flouresescnt to incandescent..and all violets in between and around..really messes with us that try to get dead on with chatoyance and depth.
But I could write a friggin book and dispel any virtue and any beliefs of ANY finish..they all have a place and time.
I admire Frency's adherance, but his logic and disposition leave me wanting. Place and time, place and time.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I admire Frenchy's persistence, but he seems to be almost mono maniacal on certain topics. And there's a few others like that around here. Arcflash comes to mind.
If thee's one thing I've learned over all these years, its that there's no one right way to do anything. And I totally agree with what you said about learning from your mistakes- I learn a little every day LOL
Finishing is still a weakness in my woodworking. I get comfortable with a few finishes, and am reluctant to try something new. But, on occasion, I do get adventurous. And sometimes I even find something I like better than what I was using.
I still hate matching stain colors, tho. <G>
Release your mind and it all comes together..I said, Re-lease, rent it out, let it go, and follow the resultant being ness..you find you, and color is just light that the 'you' used to see as light being bent and canned so that the "you" can percieve it, without losing your mind.
And they call me crazy, harumppfh.!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
There ain't no such thing.
Bill, what the hell are you talking about?
You saying that there isn't any such thing as de-waxed shellac? If so your wrong.
The product name is Bulleye's Shellac. And it is has wax. And is available in clear and amber.
Yea I know that, that's what I was calling Zinser, I thought that was on the can, have to go take a look at a can to see where I got that name???
I know that Bullseye shellac has wax in it, that's what I said in my post, cept I used the term "Zinser" and I stated that it had wax and that people, including me, have used it with water based finishes and didn't have any adverse reaction because of the wax.
There is a guy over at Knots, think his name is Steve something or another, very knowledgeable in finishes, and he says that he uses shellac with wax and doesn't have any problems when using a water based finish over it.
But they also make SealCoat. That is a clear unwax shellac sold specifically for sealing and over coating.
SealCoat is shiD in my opinion! Why not just use good ole shellac?
Not sure what you were getting at?
Doug
From our beloved Joe Fusco. Too bad he doesn't hang round here much anymore.http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/shellac_test/dewaxed_shellac.html
Mark
I guess that's what I said in my post earlier. Shellac with wax does work with water based finishes. A lot of people have done it and found that they didn't have any problems doing so, something that I stated that I've done as well.
I can buy de-waxed shellac flakes and do so cause I mix my own most of the time so its just one of those "might as well" things that I do.
Still not sure what Bill was saying?
Doug
Me either. Sometimes he's informative, sometimes he's argumentative.
OR, I'm just to dumb to see what he was saying! There's always that ya know.
Doug
"Zinser Shellac"Again there ain't no such stuff.Zinser makes 3 very different shellac based product.BIN, Bulleyes Shellac, and SealCoat.Saying Zinser Shellac does not define the product. The 3 are very different..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Saying Zinser Shellac does not define the product. The 3 are very different.
OK Bill, I used "Zinser" when I should have used "Bullseye" to describe what product I meant.
I didnt have a can in front of me and I do recall reading "Zinser" on a can or two in my day, guess it just stuck with me?
I thought you were saying that there wasnt any such thing as de-waxed shellac, my mistake.
Doug
This is a pet peeve of mine, but one that I probably violate as much as anyone else.Many companies have started with one main product and that name becomes the company name. Then they grow and have many products.But giving the company name does not give any usefull informtion about a specific product.A classic example is when some one says that they used Liquid Nails (r) for some project.Well I would not like to have the house where LN Asphalt Repair was used to attach sub-floors or LN Minimal Expanding Foam Sealant was used to mount mirrors..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'd be interested in why you think sealcoat is "shid", I have not had any issues with it at all..ever.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I used Seal Coat on a set of alder cabinets, didn't sand for shid, seamed to leave a less then hard finish, not easy to sand. I know the weather was not a factor, didn't seam to matter what the conditions - I was not at all impressed with it, went right back to shellac for a seal coat, sometimes Frenchy is right ya know!
Now if I'm spraying cabinets with lac I don't mess around with anything except lac sanding sealer, seams to me it's best to stay with like products but occasionally I will stray. ie, alder cab's that need to be sealed before and after staining, stuff like that.
Maybe I didn't use the stuff right, not sure, I'm so impatient when finishing and I tend to either do what's familure to me or make up my own rules when I'm using a foreign product!
About the only time I will do what's right is when I'm making something special, then I labor over the finish.
Doug
Henley
Too yellow? You can buy ultra blonde shellac if you want. You might want to see what garnet shellac looks like though before you go around staining stuff.
Don't use shellac with single pane windows if you are in a cold climate, In fact don't use shellac if your windows ever frost over.. shellac will take a lot of water but not for prolonged periods of time.
I have double pane that don't frost and I used shellac.
If you are a fast and good painter use shellac as directed on the can. If like me your painting technique is flawed over thin the shellac. Use twice as much denatured alcohol.
It's extremely important that you never go back over shellac to get a spot you missed. Shellac is so fast drying that from the time you make one pass and lift the brush to make a second pass the shellac has already started to dry. If you over thin like I suggest it's real fast and easy to come back and get any holidays you missed with the second coat and since the first coat melts right into the next coat it will make an invisable repair..
Go back over it and you'll wind up with a lumpy finish.
Hey Frenchy,
Thanks for the tips.
Well I tried Zinsser Bulls Eye Amber. May be it's the amber, it
sure looks like boring pine.
I'm pretty quick with a brush, and these are simple doors so
I think I'll be all right.
" It's extremely important that you never go back over shellac to get a spot you missed. Shellac is so fast drying that from the time you make one pass and lift the brush to make a second pass the shellac has already started to dry."It's a good point. What I like to do is to keep a second brush that is sitting in a little denatured alcohol close by, and if there is a holiday of any significance and the shellac is still fairly soft, I quickly float that dampened brush gently over the area and it settles out nicely. You gotta be quick though, time is of the essence if you're finishing with shellac.
He's going over pine. No shellac will reduce the yellow. Garnett will make it a nice pink color though....
BryanSayer.
He did mention that he was going for a cherry look.. If the trim is real cherry and will darken with it's exposure to sunlite then garnet would be an excellant first base coat and once the cherry had darkened enough he could apply a stain to the shellac..
I dislike making one thing look like another,, In my mind it never really does. The best you can do with something like this is match at various points of the curve..
I also agree that staining pine to look like cherry is a fools errand, it ain't gonna ever be.
One can make colorants until one is blue in the face, but grain is always gonna give away the attempt to mimic the "primary" species.
Pine ain't SUPPOSED to look like cherry, it can't. Cherry is semi diffused porous, almost all the "Pines" are annular ring ( like many decidous, ring porous species) add to that the resinous canals, and annular whorls with resultant knots..yer fiughting an uphill battle.
The ONLY woods I have diguised well to pull off a cherry clone have been Aspen and Poplar, even then, they lack the mineral streaks that only cherry includes in it's uptake...edge grain or 1/4 sawn can be done with beech, or one of the mahogonies, but even then, you can't fool a woodsmith.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere,
Well, we are in complete agreement.. You couldn't have said it better.. Same with black walnut or Mahogany or any other very pretty wood..
There is no one color that is black walnut. It's a combination of purples, reds, brown, blacks white etc..
While cherry given time darkens to a near black it still isn't one color.. trying to imitate that is a fools errand.. It's like a woman who dyes her hair a blonde, it fools few and never for long..
I've had very few disagreements with your espousal of Shellac as the do all end all finish, what I don'r cotton to is your delivery. I have very stong beliefs as well, but "In your face" salesmanship, leaves a lot to be desired, when possibly you are selling yourself and your accolades more than the product. I TOO fall into that, and I attempt to not beleager the points, but as we know, here on BT, many folks want verifiacation of your professional history.
I have scads of history in wood finishing, yeah, it is verifiable..in everything from lutherie to organ reconstruction, does that make me an "expert"? I doubt it, I got paid to do magic, and i wasn't ME that did it, it was an understanding of the materials I had to work with.
If a resume' is prerequiste to share knowledge of wood finishing to "back up" our assertions, then I more often then not, would rather be silent, but if a genuine kerffluffle ensues in a thread, I will come out and share what I have..truth be told? I'd prefer to stay paid for my education, and blab it all out for free on the web..there are mountians out there of untold experiance that only can be had by hands on experimentation, and the costs associated with that learning..as of right now, I am reluctant to let that go for free. Call me selfish, but I didn't learn this stuff with out a huge investment in time and money and mistakes.
I fee;l a new practitioner can learn more from eating a job ( or at least RETAIN THAT LESSON) than you and I flapping our gums about our preferred methods..thats how I learned, and I homnestly believe it is the only way to understand the ramifiacations of the VARIABLES in any method.
I have never whole heartedly dis avowed your "method" ( for you, and your situ) but gezzeus, get outta the mans face if you want to move him to follow you. I for one can't follow, if you are in my way..some of us are faster than you, and will slow down, but when we're nipping your heels, move over already..we been there, done that,a nd will bring you along, not leave you behind.
There are MANY new advances that surpass shellac, it's up to you to embrace or run from.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere, I suspect I've tried many if not most of the "new" stuff out there.. I've been painting for decades, not just since I started my house and frankly I do learn a lot by the lousy results I often get. Every new paint that's been on the market since the 1960's I've probably tried at one point or another.. I too have done my share of prize winning stuff as well as stuff I'm embaressed to let anyone see.. The differance between you and I though Is I do it as a hobby while you get paid for your efforts..
So if you are saying that only pros can do good work then I must respectfully disagree.
What sells me on a paint is how blunder proof it is. Face it, we all paint under less than optimum conditions. Maybe it's a rush to beat the weather or a deadline or whatever but mistakes can and do happen all of the time.. How easy can a mistake be repaired or corrected. Is there sufficent time to rework something before the mistake becomes perminant? Will that bug that just landed on the wet finish ruin everything or can it be fixed?
I used to be a big fan of Nitrocelluliose laquer because of the ease of repair.. I've always hated enamels and paint that works like an enamel. Mistakes there need to be allowed to dry completely and then sanded and a new coat added..
I'm staring at a grandfather clock I built myself. It is the pride of my fine woodworking skills except for one thing. When finished I used a wipe on BLO rather than risk making a mistake in the finish and having it appear as less than something I could be proud of.. True it's been decades since I built that but the finish was virtually gone in about 5 years.
About a little more than 3 decades ago when the first of the 2 part paints came out I quickly jumped on them and the promises they offered.. At the time there was little knowledge about them and the toxic effects they could have.. I came close to permanently hurting myself (the EMT's said killing myself) when I sprayed it the first time. Since that point I've been hyper aware of the toxic effects of anything I paint and the more benign and safe a product is the more I advocate for it..
If that sounds like your shop teacher constantly reminding you to wear your safety glasses then so be it..
People don't need to experiance everything I have in order to learn from it.. Hopefully I can convince people to at least try and since there is so little down side in the attempt they might find the ability to do things they were afraid to try before..
With regard to my repeated statements about benefits.. There are a number of lurkers out there who don't post. I regularly get E-Mail thank you's from them for my position of advocacy on certain matters.. So I completely understand that I'm not simply addressing one person.
To leave an error or unanswered question out there would be doing them a diservice. Hopefully those who are already familar with my position can simply skip over repeats.
Actually, I have a 250 year old corner cupboard of cherry, and it is a medium nut brown.
I love it, and just wax it with clear Bison wax.
Stef
"I also agree that staining pine to look like cherry is a fools errand, it ain't gonna ever be."
Agreed, of course.
But staining it so it looks good NEXT to the cherry, and blends in, ain't. Sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do!
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din, if you can get poplar to look like cherry. I woulda never even thought to try that trick! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I agree. He isn't talking about anything with large area or will stick out.Just want to get the jamb and sash some color so that they don't stickout when next to the cherry casing..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Frenchy,
I discovered a neat trick.
I just finished a walnut and cherry work bench. I sprayed all the drawers with our favorite dilute shellac. Sprayed buildup coats until I figured there was enough. Let'er dry and loved the look. If no one were to touch it I would have been satisfied, but there was a little fuzz in the wood. So, after drawers had dried for a week or so I took a gob of rag, saturated it with EtOh and quickly rubbed it our. It flattened the finish and gave it a high gloss. Smooth as a baby's butt. Sort of like French polish but no shellac in the pad.
I'm going to try it on some furniture next.
Stef
fatboy2
Cool! Don't you just love those accidental "mistakes" that result in something great?
The pine-stain problem just came up here not too long ago and I was pushing the Minwax sealing product as I had success with it in the past. I was in the shop the other day doing a stain test board on pine, and decided to do a compairison with the Minwax sealer vs unwaxed shellac (I happened to have some). The shellac was the better product hands down. Just make sure it's dewaxed.
Do exactly what Duane (sphere) said and you'll be fine.
In fact...you should always do what he says, whether he believes it or not. He has 'the secret', but don't tell anyone (especially him) that I told you so.
I just did this -- Pella pine windows, some other cheaper brand I can't remember pine doors, and cherry trim. The cherry is finished with 1 coat of clear Watco to bring up the color of the wood, and then a bunch of coats of garnet shellac. I took a piece of scrap cherry, finished with oil only, and aged in the sun about a week (important step with cherry) to the paint store and picked out a stain that looked similar on the pine sample. After applying the stain, I finished it with shellac along with the cherry. Looks fine.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I'm a little nervous about the Shellac and moisture.
The way in which the ammonia and alcohol breaks it down
don't inspire confidence.
Ammonia may be a problem, but if you know it's there, you can avoid it. Water is less a problem with shellac than most assume. I assume you won't be faced with alcohol pooling on your windows. (If so, you are definately partying too much! ;-) ) In fact, the alcohol issue with shellac can actually be a good thing -- makes it far easier to repair. No finish is perfect. You just need to understand the limitations of each and act accordingly.
I am not trying to convince you to use shellac -- I thought you had already decided to do so and I was simply responding to what I thought was your question -- how to make pine windows match the cherry trim.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hey All thanks for the help.
What about De-waxed shellac-stain (minwax probably)- Varithane (oil based)?
I'd just feel better about a more waterproof top coat.
Henley
I've used that Minwax product and can tell you from actual experiance it's extremely hard to do a nice job with.. Impossible with a brush and when sprayed requires great technique to have a believeable finish.
Even then it looks plastic as heck!
I've sprayed a lot of finishes and was going to spray lacquer.. However lacquer is really delicate (in my experiance) nasty to spray in a closed space, and requires sanding to repair..
Plus with lacquer you can easily wind up with runs, drips, orange peel, and overspray unless your technique is perfect.
Polyurethanes have the foggy scratched look of satin or a plastic look By the way expose most poly's to prolonged sunlite and moisture and they peel right up even if all sides have been dealt with. As does spar varnish and many other finishes..
There is no real water proof top coat otherwise we'd never have to repaint..
Well I'd be happy with a waterlox finish but it's gotten
expensive and I have to drive farther to get it.
So I was thinking the varathane top coat. I did a test and it look fine but the pine definitely needs some color.
Can one use shellac under an oil top coat?
Yes you can, shellac is often varnished over and poly over, Varathane is similar.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Yeah, that is what I was wondering.
What's your opinion of my plan? De-waxed shellac
Then stain
Then oil varithane
I'll trim it in cherry then Tong oil or Varithane.Wasn't planing on staining the cherry.
Henley
It will either look plastic (gloss) or cloudy scratched looking (satin)
Frenchy,
I know you are they shellac go to guy, it's not that I've written
it off. I'm wondering about options that I'm more familiar with thus
more comfortable.
In my opinion glossy finishes don't all look like plastic. Poly
yes, but I rather like Waterlox. To be honest I don't know about
the varithane, I have a test drying right now.
When you say the satin will look cloudy or scratched, I wonder if
you mean satin in general or the method I described. Because to
me satin doesn't look like you described.
I like lacquer better, sprayed. Here's why..if you brush the "oil" it can re-distribute the stain in an unfriendly way. If the top coat shares the same solvent as the stain, care must be used applying said top coat, I try to avoid that, and if not, avoid brushing.
Adding another "barrier"coat of shellac,sealcoat preferably, will make it safer.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Henley
You are absolutely right, everybody has their opinion of what is right and what isn't. To me all satins cloud the beauty of wood and look like they have micro scratches in them. I love deep gloss that doesn't look plasticy and when I first saw shellac on a restored dinning room table I fell in love with that finish.
I used to go to high end auctions with a friend of mine and noticed that all antiques seemed to have shellaced finishes. When I asked a restorer he told me that was because that was the most common finish on fine furniture and thus period correct.
I wonder about a finish that has hundreds and hundreds of years of use in the finest homes and often needs little more than a touch up to restore to original beauty. I know it's not a trade name so anyone can market it. Thus nobody spends any money marketing shellac and modern chemicals have replaced it's common use..
Personally I think that's a shame. Givin the right abuse all finishes fail.. However with all of them except shellac you must sand and create the mess that results to repair them. Shellac doesn't need that. Simply wipe off the old finish and apply a new one and no dust is raised..
I din't invent shellac, that happened thousands of years ago. And for all that time nobody has never come out with a finish that has as much beauty.
Aside from that I love how wonderfully easy a shellaced finish is and how absolutely fool proof it is.. Given it's safety (you've been eating shellac all of your life) and ease plus beauty please excuse me if I continue to suggest people look at shellac..
Henley
yes you can
I think you misunderstood him, he wasn't refering to "Poly-shades" which I agree is horrid stuff.
He implied about varathane OVER the Minwax stain layer.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Henley.
Think of it this way. Battery acid will damage every finish made so we simply don't use battery acid on painted finishes.. There are countless non-ammonia based window cleaners out there so buy those, they work just fine..
As for alcohol please remember 100 proof is simply 50% alcohol most people drink less than 10% alcohol by the time you figure ice and mix etc.. That means 90% water read below to see the true effects of water.. and what are you doing pouring fine scotch wiskey on a window anyway? <grin>
As for water.. well last night we had a nasty rain come thru while my windows were open. I went around this morning with a towel and wiped up the resulting puddles and nothing happened to all my shellac.. not on the windows, not on my floors..
If I'd left the puddles there too long the shellac would turn white..
Then you simply take some denatured alcohol wipe up all the white spots and reapply new shellac.. new shellac melts right into old shellac and makes an invisable repair. No sanding.. It's so easy you'll be tempted to damage it just to show off at some party.