Ok, so I have done a few shingle installations, but they were new shingles on garage-size buildings. Sister-in-law needs new shingles. I don’t know if they are original to the house, but if they are they are 40 yrs old. Single story house, low slope, probably 2,000 sf house plus 2 car garage, so I’m thinking of doing the good relative thing and helping her out.
I have not looked at the roof yet (i have been to the house many times, but never looked at the roof with the intent of working on it) so I don’t know what condition it is in. After the shingles get stripped, would you plan to install new tar paper regardless of the condition of the existing? Any reason the existing can’t stay in place? Same for the drip edge. Can it stay? House is in coastal So carolina, snow is non-existant, so no need for Grace. There is a brick chimney in the middle of the house.
“Put your creed in your deed.” Emerson
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
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Plan on scrapping everything. Most likely it's all going to come up with the shingles anyway. Anything left isn't going to be in great shape.
The one exception.....any existing flashing around the chimney. If it is copper and has been properly installed, it will save you some time and expense.
The rest is cheap enough to replace altogether.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
The one exception.....any existing flashing around the chimney. If it is copper and has been properly installed, it will save you some time and expense.
I won't warrant someone else's flashing. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Hey......you quoted, but then ignored my disclaimer....."properly installed" flashing.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Hey......you quoted, but then ignored my disclaimer....."properly installed" flashing.
It may have been installed properly originally, but it's hard to re-shingle to existing flashing with out disturbing or damaging it in the process.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Depends on the situation I guess, but I've never found it terribly difficult.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
The tar paper will not survive the shingle removal. Rolling up the tar paper with the shingles helps contain the mess.
Low slope, less than 3:12, means shingles were the wrong type of roofing.
Rolling up the tar paper with the shingles helps contain the mess.
You've never been on a roof have you?
Low slope, less than 3:12, means shingles were the wrong type of roofing.
Most dimensionals, if not all, can be used down to 2/12 with special underlayment precautions. 3 tabs go down to 3/12 with special underlayment precautions. It's 3/12 and 4/12 with standard underlayment.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The low slope comment has me curious what the actual pitch is. I don't know about Carolina, but in FL, there were a lot of tract ranch homes with 2/12 and BUR gravel roofs that got replaced with shingles which didn't last long.
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I'd tear off the felt, but keep the drip edge. (If it isn't damaged)
Allow plenty of extra time and money for unseen problems - Rotten plywood, missing flashing, etc.
The existing felt will be damaged by the tear off process. On occasion, we get a roof where the felt is in good enough shape that if we get the roof reshingled by quittin' time, there's no need to re-felt. It's rare that this happens.
I've heard the arguement that if you don't remove all the old felt, you might miss some rotten wood. This is highly unlikely. The tear off tool will find the rot or the guy banging down the missed nails or the other guy that's walking across the roof will find it whether the felt is on or not.
It sometimes hard to keep from messing up the exisiting drip edge when tearing off. No more than it costs, I'd rather have new than a bent piece or two. Also, if the existing is galvanized. it'll probably start to rust before the new roof is shot.
Both of these items might be re-used, but doing so isn't going to put much of a dent in the total cost.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The felt paper acts as a backup for any wind driven water that may blow under the shingles. It should be in good shape, which the existing won't be. Existing drip edge can often be left in place and used. You don't want any unfilled holes. Replacing might be easier if it's Swiss cheese. To do a proper job, the stripped roof should be free of protruding staples, splinters, nails, etc. that could damage any of the materials and be a possible future leak.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
The felt paper acts as a backup for any wind driven water that may blow under the shingles.
No it doesn't. Every nail hole in the shingles is also in the felt. And how, exactly does wind driven water blow under shingles?
All the rest of your advice is sound.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
As long as the nails are tight in the shingles, water won't leak through the hole. The felt isn't really intended for any extremes of water penetration. Under light conditions, like a thunderstorm, if water does get in, the felt will help to keep it from getting through a joint in the sheathing. Rain can blow hard enough to make it up under a shingle. If it's next to a joint in the preceding row, the path is easy. It doesn't take much water to stain around a screw in the ceiling. We always pay the same attention to the felt as any other roof covering, minimizing joints, avoiding tears or busting holes with hammer staplers.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer1 is right and I had to eat crow many years ago about the felt issue. I never believed it had much value. I thought the same thing...it has too many holes in it.
When I moved to Texas, one of the fist jobs I did was a roof repair. A leak occurred in a driving rain (it rains sideways here in Austin). The leak was about 8 feet from the eave in the middle of the guys living room. The attic gave me no clues. There were no flashings above or to the side of the leak. I carefully removed the shingles in the area and there was one small section of felt that was damaged/missing.
The wind had driven the rain up under the shingles and it found it's way behind the felt and ruined the drywall below.
I know of thousands of houses in MI that were shingled with no felt back in the 70's and 80s. I lived in a few houses with no felt. We never had any problems but we don't have sideways rain in MI like we do here in TX.
I'm going to disagree on that one. with tile roofs for instance, the doubled 30# felt is the water barrier as much as the tile is.
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On the underlayment - for you, being a novice on this, I would recommend using RooftopgaurdII or Titanium UDL, because they are tough enough to last a while and not blow away in a storm. A novice is more likely to end up with extended time frame, and I'm sure she wants the water to stay on the outside.
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I'm thinking the slope is about 4:12. I will check into the UDL, but this reroof will not be an extended project. It's DW's sisters house, so I will have both of them supervising the work."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"It's DW's sisters house, so I will have both of them supervising the work."
Oh man - That's BAD.
Any way you can get out of this ???
I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last. [Arnold Schwartzenegger in Commando]
I waas hoping you would come help. Considering all your recent experience in La, and you have a little extra time on your hands ... Should I waut for you?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I thnk I'll be busy that weekend.When are you doing it again ???(-:
A small town that cannot support one lawyer can always support two.
"I will have both of them supervising the work."The more female supervision I have the longer a job takes.
ARE YOU SURE THAT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO TEAR OFF THE OLD SHINGLES?
WHAT ABOUT PROTECTING MY PLANTS OVER THERE
DID THE WEATHERMAN REALLY SAY IT WON'T RAIN TODAY?
I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE RIGHT COLOUR SHINGLE...
CAN YOU GET BACK FROM THE DUMP IN TIME TO GO OUT TO GINO'S FOR DINNER TONIGHT?
WHY DID YOU PUT THOSE NAILS WHERE I WOULD TRIP OVER THEM AND SPILL THEM ALL OVER THE DRIVEWAY?
ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT US TO GO TO GINO'S FOR SPAGHETTI WITHOUT YOU?
WHEN CAN YOU COME FIX THE FLAT TIRE SO WE CAN GO EAT?
AREN'T YOU DONE SHINGLING THAT YET?
WHY ARE YOU SO TIRED TONIGHT?
WHY ARE YOU SO GRUMPY?
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with tile roofs for instance
We're not discussing tile roof underlayment. We're talking asphalt shingles.
And I'll concede that the wind blown rain might be able to get under 3 tabs and I do so little 3 tab work any more, I forgot about them. I was speaking of dimensionals.
But, to whoever thinks nail riddled felt will save the day:
Take a piece of 15 lb felt about a foot square. Fold up the sides to create a vessel an inch or so deep. Tape the corners if nesessary. Tear a off a strip of shingle and nail the shingle into the middle of the vessel with three nails to a board of some type. Fill it with water and see what happens. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Different situation. I've seen lots of times when tearing off signs that water had run under shingles but left no sign of getting thru to the plywood.In a bad location like no cricket behind chimney or a clogged valley, there is a lot more water and the underlay does not help. That is closer to conditions like your example. But out in the field, the underlayment does help keep modest amts of water off the sheathing.
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I'm just speaking from my experience in my part of the country. I've not worked in other areas, so my experience is very region specific.
We had a lot of steep shingle roofs installed without underlayment during the 80's. Saw a lot a buckling caused by the shingles sticking to the sheathing.
We have a lot 1x6 and 1x8 sheathed roofs locally. Leaks are typically easier to find on board sheathed roofs than plywood sheathed due to the less amount of travel allowed by the number of joints in the sheathing.
In the instance of blow offs, my unscientific poll says that roofs with felt are just as likely to leak with or without felt. The leak will be more pronounced on board sheathed roofs. The lower the slope, the more pronounced the leak.
My evidence tells me that plywood probably does more to keep water out than felt (we often find roof field leaks that have traveled under the felt on top of the sheathing 'til they find a joint to drip through).
And back to the tile roof analogy: The tile that I've looked at lately doesn't allow the double #30 felt spec any more. They require I&WS and/or synthetic underlayment. Also, there's a lot fewer nail penetrations on a typical tile installation.
I treat the underlayment as temporary protection until the roof is installed and a slip sheet afterwards with a shingle roof. I've seen no evidence here to dictate changing that mindset.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the underlay keeping water out. I do have other return comments for you though -- It has been a long time since I dealt with tile so didn't know that prescription had changed. I&W is probably how I'd do it now anyways.On finding leaks with ply sheathing making the drip travel - agree there. I usually find leaks by instinct, knowing from experience where it is most likely to have come in, so I don't often need top back trail it.and another thought going forward from that, just imagine how far it will travel with Huber's zip sheathing!
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Paul ,
How well would you think this felt is working ???
View Image
LOL, looks like it was doing a lot more sixty years ago. That even looks like a 9" exposure for four ply underlay - maybe eighty years worth of wear on that...Here is one that is more what I was saying-
See where some felt has faded and above that it looks newer?This is a 12/12 and I got called to repair wind damage when caretaker found some shingles laying in the yard and thought to look up. That was from the missing shingles above where it shows the unfaded felt. There had already been a few shingles missing for God only knows how long before that... but no signs of leaking into the house at all. I don't think that would have been the case with no felt underlay.
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Yup thats exactly why felt or synthetics should never be eliminated from a roof job !!
we'll have to agree to disagree on the underlay keeping water out.
I don't disagree that it keeps some out. It just won't keep it all out.
just imagine how far it will travel with Huber's zip sheathing!
That's the 1st thing that crossed my mind when I saw that stuff. I do like the concept, though. We just did a low pitched roof with TPO and the carpenters resheathing it in front of us used it. Took the onus off us to keep things dry when it's rained half of every day for the last 6 weeks.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
"It just won't keep it all out. "Never imagined that it would, but it keeps enough out to keep from replacing/repairing ceilings
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I've had another thought ( I know, I know) about wind blown rain getting under 3 tab shingles:
If that's a possibility in a certain area, then 3 tab shingles would be a bad choice of roofing materials in said area.
I came up working on historic buildings and have mostly done high end work, so I've never looked at how to do the job the cheapest. I do look at how to give the customer the best value for their money.
I rarely use felt at all anymore since discovering the synthetics. I use I&WS liberally during a reroof, but don't depend on it beyond a temporary dry-in. I insist on using 6 nails per shingle regardless of the slope or situation. I research the venting/non venting situation of each roof before pricing ( a customer just showed me a bid he got from another company. They spec'd power vents and ridge vent, but there's no soffit vent - just gable vents. Bet they had something left over from the last job). To sum up, I don't give a rat'sass whether felt will act as a secondary barrier or not. I'm more interested in never knowing for sure.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The little story I told about the felt saving the day was on a house with a 9/12 roof and dimensional.
The felt did save the day except for that one little spot where it was torn and open.
I never thought felt was useful. I'm convinced now.
Definitely use new underlay, but the old can stay in palce - it all depends whether it wants to go or not.
At 40 YO on a low slope, it is th e2nd or third roof already
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I second the thought about UDL. I special ordered it from HD, btw.
Don't dismiss the I&WS so quick. If she is in coastal SC, doesn't she have to worry about hurricane winds? Metal flashing is cheap, you might tear it up when you pull up the old.
Make sure you flash that chimeny properly too, I think there is an artical in FHB every other issue about how to do that.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
BTW, find that actual rise and run of that roof. The difference between 3:12, 3.5:12, and 4:12 can make a HUGE difference in called for materials for a warrenty validation.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.