We are finishing up the Sketchup model of a house, and in doing so, are thinking through all the exterior finish and trim details. Here is a pic of a gable end that has a barrel vault intersect.
We have not decided whether to shingle this gable or to use something else. The other possibilities are vertical roughsawn board-and-batten, or bark-on slabs from white cedar logs, also vertical.
If shingling, how would you cut the shingle ends to speed things up? Or instead, would you set up a sled for the tablesaw and taper-cut the shingles, and put ’em on in a radial pattern?
Replies
Would it be possible to shingle it normally and the scirbe the line with the reveal you want and the cut with a jigsaw. I suppose you could precut prior to installation but the you have to keep everything pretty organized, several layers deep. I'm not sut that would be much faster than just cutting as you go since you will basically be shingling the same pattern twice, once to cut them, and once to install them.
Clamp a portable Bench top bandsaw to your scaffold. After a few cuts that you scribe you should be able to cut by eye.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Building as thou art paranoid never harmed anyone.
Edited 4/13/2007 10:47 am ET by CarpentrySpecialist
Clamp a portable Bench top bandsaw to your scaffold.
Sounds like a good idea. We can use it to make all the bevel cuts at the rake, also. Like this Milwaukee?
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Yeah, I had a Delta or Ryobi in mind but that will do. Add a blade gaurd if you can so not to snag a pant leg or finger.Best to you and yours, Chris.
Building as thou art paranoid never harmed anyone.
I've done several of those in cedar, but it was over ten years ago. I think I shingles straight and cut off tails with a jigsaw in place after all were up. That way, I could be sure to maintain an even radius.
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I agree with Tom.
Shingle in place and let them hang long. Come back later with a jigsaw.
Gives you the option of tweaking any trim detail on the back side of the shingles (porch roof) if desired or required.
Gene - Best would be NOT to have the shingles hanging in small bits to the edge (more likely to blow off or break off and looks truncated) - instead why not have some wood trim to ease that transition from wall to ceiling (see photo of shingle style porch).
Traditional styles like the Shingle Style often have such transitions.
Jeff
exactly... the rowlock course defining the arch
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, the pics here show various ways shingled siding is adapted to a non-level bottom edge. It looks to me as if there is no absolutely right way to do this, but only preferences, and that the preferences are dictated by varying degrees of artistic compulsion or economy.
Coming into the curved edge "plain level" is shown in the first two, and is what we have in mind.
Please give me some more info on what you mean by the rowlock course, and why it has to be flashed to the overlapping cut courses.
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Are you speaking rowlock and meaning the way the arc is shingled over this entry? Or do you mean that a starter course and finish over the starter is done radially, as shown here, but then "plain level" courses happen thereafter?
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We may end up finishing this gable, not in shingles, but with bark-on logslab strip siding, random width, with the bottom ends overshooting the arc a little, and picketfence (sawtooth) cut. We'll decide later.
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Isn't all that bark going to slough off the rustic siding? And bugs in the cambium...
you win.
The WINTER cut stock will out last the "running sap" sawn, but the Cambrium in cedar ( of which I am sure he is depicting) is as good as could be. I mean Atlantic White cedar (AKA Aromatic) is pretty tuff stuff, I have a shed built in the 1800's with it as posts..and it is pristine ( well, in my eyes, anything not be trodden or rotted, is pristine).
I still think his biggest concern is the flashing, no matter what siding.
I do round, I know.Parolee # 40835
I still think his biggest concern is the flashing, no matter what siding.
I do round, I know.
Please refer back to the earlier post in this thread, where I show various shingle-sided houses with arched or curved edges meeting horizontal soffits, and . . .
point out, in detail, how they are flashed. Or how you think they are flashed. Or how you would flash them.
Another thing. Why does the curve have anything to do with this detail? That arch could very well be changed to a straight pitch, tracking the 3/12 pitch of the scissorsvault ceiling inside the house, and I would still be up against a pinching-exposure shingling job, with the same edge detail.
The bark slabs are pine. I'll take a pic of one done in cedar, with the sharkteeth end detail I mentioned.
I am sorry for asking , and just broke a tooth eating dinner, so forgive me.
I was curious of the flashing because of the radius being fair. I might go with steps and no soldering or, solder in a continous valley like Piece, if your snow accumulation would dictate it.Parolee # 40835
It doesn't look like cedar bark to me, more like pine bark, is why i asked. Pine bark sloughs, plus pine beetles are a problem out here. (I know Gene's in NY, but i don't know where the siding is sourced.) No answer from Gene and it's not a big deal, it just struck me as an unusual product.
Waaaay cool house Jeff !
stephen
gene.... i took a ride to two sites to illustrate my point
here's your shingled arch
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and a stone arch on a nice house at the plaster stage
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notice they are both missing the same thing...... neither one acknowledges the structure that they represent
the two stone arches are " hail mary " arches... it's a miracle they stay up... there is no attempt to represent the stone arch and keystone that real stone would need to support them
it is obvious that this is veneer, since you just can't do that with stone
my point about shingled arches is the same.. they don't represent the structure they are embellishing
if there were CASING outlining the arch, the casing would tell the eye, I AM AN ARCH !
but this ( your drawing ) says ... i am shingles that are supporting something that has no visible means of support... i am a "hail mary" arch
whenever arches are used as design elements ...... to me... they should continue to be true to the rules of architecture.. they should look like arches that have their support in their elements
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 7:24 pm ET by MikeSmith
now.. this one is pretty... but the shingles tell us something else.. they say ( to me )
someone spent a lot of time making these details and missed
these have the shape of gothic arches, but they don't look like gothing arches.. the shingles detract from the "archness".. they don't add
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whereas this one comes closer... the window casing set back below the shingled arch, says "i am an arch"
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but again, the shingling is in truncated straight lines.. no "archness"
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 7:30 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:31 pm ET by MikeSmith
now this one... designed by an architect who apprenticed to a firm that specialized in Shingle -style victorians
he had us use a lot of the details that have been used since the shingled ladies first set foot on the american scene
driving up thru the two garages into the courtyard
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and a closeup on one of the corbels we repaired after a delivery truck tried to squeeze thru instead of driving around (service drive to the right )
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looking up at the shingled arch, with 5" shingles cut on a band saw to follow the arch
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you can also see the new circular louvre we replaced about three years ago, when the raccoons destroyed the old one
and a closer look .. you can see the keystone
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 7:40 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:40 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:41 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:42 pm ET by MikeSmith
here's what the arch looks like from the side / rear.. we used no cap... just flashed it like a corner
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this is all from 1985.. except for those repairs i noted
and a detail of the front.. the rowlock arch shingles and the butts sitting on them were all cut from the same tracing template on a band saw
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the keystone
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and a view to the side showing where the arch meets the deck below the balconey rail
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 7:50 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:51 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:51 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:52 pm ET by MikeSmith
here's the millwork under the arch ( 1985.. all custom then )
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and a view from inside looking out onto the balconey
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looking down from the balconey to the drive & outer parking area
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and looking at the left side of the house, with the tower room and some of the gable details
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 7:59 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 7:59 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 8:00 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 4/14/2007 8:00 pm ET by MikeSmith
we did go back about 10 years ago and added a railing for the front steps
we made it out of teak and laminated it in place with epoxy
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 8:03 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks for the arched shingle details, Mike. I guess by the term "rowlock" you are meaning this:
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Somehow for me, particularly with my shallow arch, this doesn't say "think like a raindrop" to me. I'll keep searching and thinking about it.
gene.. north side.. no problems.. we get just as much rain as you
now .. the original RC roof was toast in 15 years.. but the sidewall shingles are doing very nicely..
now, talk to me about how you are going to make it look like an arch
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/14/2007 10:08 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mr. Smith,
Thank you sir, for a very informative and highly educational post. Thank you for sharing your artistic insight. I most sincerely appreciate the time, effort, and detail.
Thanks,
- T.
Hey Mike,
Nice work and I have a thought or two you may wish to comment on............in this photo I believe that I may have tried to line up the arch courses where they meet the long point of the horizontal courses.. At least perhaps where you where getting closer to the bottom of the arch. Or maybe at the midpoint or so and on down.
I realize as you get higher up on the arch this would not only be virtually impossible but wouldn't look very good either.
I recall shingling a gable end beneath an overhang, and we ran like width shingles up along the bottom of the rake s sophitt and the points lined up, so to speak.
I'll have to see if I have a pic.
Anyway, i just drew a quick sketch of a likeness of Gene's gable and ran two courses of shingles with the butts more or less perpendicular to the line of the arch and it looks much better.
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Edited 4/15/2007 8:08 pm ET by EricPaulson
this one that gene showed earlier would be preferable to just cutting the bottoms
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but they were inconsistent... notice on the bottom "roman arch", they kept the courses parallel (concentric ? ) to the arch........but they did it using 8 ( 7 ? -9? ) courses and stopped when they got to the bottom of the window bump-out
on the gothic arch above they were concentric with only 5 courses
and above the round window they were concentric with zero courses
i think the whole scheme would have been improved if they had made 3 courses concentric in all three casesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
gene.. right or wrong these aare what i'm calling rowlock courses
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around the top of the arch
maybe last week i would have had a different name for them.. or maybe 30 minutes from now still different, do you know what i'm talking about ?
anyways.. woody & eric might be onto something
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i realize this arch is following the curve set by the arch formed by the windows, which are constrained by the scissors truss ( ?) ceiling in the room beyond
so increasing the ht. of the arch might not be viable
but eric's descibed solution of TWO courses of concentric shingles and then the butts getting trimmed on the following courses would define the arch and please my eye
i know this is preliminary, so i guess you are not done trimming those windows ... more opportunity to define some archness
Edited 4/15/2007 8:57 pm ET by MikeSmith
think the whole scheme would have been improved if they had made 3 courses concentric in all three cases
I concur[email protected]
think the whole scheme would have been improved if they had made 3 courses concentric in all three cases
I'll disagree just to be obstinate.
Actually I just don't like that they mixed Roman and Gothic arches. That house would have looked better and been more historically correct if the top window was a Palladian window. Kind of like something my favorite architect would have done:
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hey.. an interactive pic !
well, it definitely has lintels and archesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That house looks familiar. Where is it and who is the archy?
The Robert Treate Paine house, in Woburn MA by H.H.Richardson.
I have never visited that house but it is well featured in one of my H H Richardson books. The main staircase and hall are amazing!BTW Richardson's former residence in Brookline is for sale and in danger of being razed. I took a tour of it the other day and it is in real rough shape. The asking price is $2.5m and it is estimated it will take another 2.5m to fix it up.
Yeah, it's a great house. It was actually an addition/renovation to a Federal style house, IIRC. I've been there a few times--my architecture advisor in college literally wrote the book on Richardson. She'd roll over in her grave if she knew his house was in trouble.
Wowww...Mike. thats some incredable work!!
On my last one I just made some trim but then again I had no help doing any of this so I went as simple as possible and just tried to blend it all together in my design of the front of this last house of mine I did.
You know, not to generalize, but the 29% of people who still support President Bush are the ones who love to pronounce themselves more patriotic than the rest of us. But just saying you're patriotic is like saying you have a big one. If you have to say it, chances are it's not true.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Mike-
That is some great work.
And you've done a very nice job of talking about how an arch should emphasize its "archness", and look like it is doing something. For me, it's really a hallmark of good architecture when structure and design meet harmoniously.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
zak... i was hoping for some feedback on "archness" and "form following function" from some with more classical training than me
other than two semesters of architectural drafting and design concepts.. all i know about it is self-taught and by osmosis from others
i do know that lot's of things miss being good design.. and it is often some very simple details that do in an otherwise great projectMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I would usually agree with you about arches needing some visible structure. Those stone garage doors look awful (the thin edge of the veneer is just as bad as the lack of an arch course) and Gene needs some sort of detail at the bottom edge of his arch.
What's different about his arch though is that it's so flat. It's not Gothic, it's not Romanesque. I might consider arching all the shingles on that face. I don't think it's a one size fits all situation.
Edit to add: Nice job on the shingles, BTW. I've done some creative shingling but nothing like that. Cool stuff!
Edited 4/15/2007 6:59 pm ET by woodguy99
I my mind, I'd be looking at the flashing behind and asking what comes first? Build the barrel and tie in to an unfinished gable?
Cutting the shingles up on the roof is easy, if the barrel is up, but running them long or wild and believe it or not, you can use a circ saw to ride the barrel and trim the ends, but you may destroy the flashing.
What finish is on the barrel?
Parolee # 40835
Barrel ceiling finish is 1x6 e&cb pine boards, ends coming out flush to the gable sheathing surface.
Is that 1x6 the roof sheathing as well?
Our last job had 2x6 T&G...as the skin, see the nails for the finish ( you didn't answer that) will be of importance.
We use 1.25 copper nails for our tabs, but I carry some 2" or 3" for anchoring our stock..and often we drill them in upon teardown, rather than pull and caulk the hole left behind.
It appears to me, that no one comprehends the amount of staging, scaffold, or jacks it takes to do a good job safely...chicken ladders and vise grips gets hairy, and on curved work, is not an option.
I guess I am diverting from your query, but the dormer attachment is to me, an issue. Flashing wise.Parolee # 40835
i hate that detail.. it always looks like someone never saw any Shingle -style Victorian
i'd have a parallel course of 5 " shingles following the curve, and cut the intersecting courses to that , with appropriate copper cap flash to separate the two
Gene, I think Mike Smith's right, that arch needs something... it's so wide and flat though that I think a piece of trim would need to be pretty wide to look right, and that's probably not the look you're going for. Any chance you could post some more screen shots of the house and maybe we could help you come up with something appropriate?
So Gene..........................c'mon.
You do this to us all the time. You ask, and you receive, but you never tell us what you decided to do.
So; how about it??
[email protected]
I'm still thinking about it. We're just getting permits this week, and have almost two feet of new snow on the ground, so there is time yet to come to a decision.
As was said by me in an earlier post, we may not shingle it at all, and instead cover the gable with vertical slab-rips of bark-on cedar or pine.
I was thinking you guys were getting hit. The winter that just won't end.[email protected]