Replies

1. 
   FrankB89 | Feb 13, 2003 04:42am | #1

   Need more info:  Are there a lot of windows or doors to finish around; on corners, are you shingling to corner trim or lacing the shingles; are there any sidewalls meeting a roof, or any gable ends; any arch topped windows? How many squares?  How much exposure on each course? Any decorative shingles?

   I think you get my drift.

   Can you post a picture or scan a dwg. or sketch?

   Jules Quaver for President   2004

1. 
   stossel1 | Feb 13, 2003 08:38am | #3

   Notchman,

   I don't have the computer skills to post a sketch but I can describe the house a little better. Its a 2700 sq feet split level custom with 6 gable walls and 3 gable overframes. It is stucco halfway up the elevations were the siding starts. I bid the whole job at around $13 a foot. I guess this isn't a whole lot of information but I was thinking if somebody could estimate the time it takes to do shingle versus lap siding I could get a handle on what to charge. Thanks for the response.

2. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 13, 2003 07:12am | #2

   i have no idea what rates you get.. but for production estimating . i always use 1/2 SQ/ man/day  for sidewall shingle..staging , paper, layout, application and clean up

    the standard is 1 sq/man/day.... never got it in 30 years....

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1. 
   stossel1 | Feb 13, 2003 08:43am | #4

   Thanks for the response, I don't know how many squares but it would be easy enough to figure. My question is what rate do you base your man hour rate on? Excuse my ignorance but I usually bid by the square foot.

2. 
   MrMagoo | Feb 13, 2003 10:00pm | #9

   Mike,

   Question for you:

   When you say 1/2 Sq. /man/day are you referring to the bundled or boxed shingles that are sold as a full or 1/2 Sq. at some nominal exposure,

                                                     or

   the actual sidewall area that is a full sq. (100 sq.ft.) or 1/2 Sq. (50 sq.ft.)  .

   It seems to me that the first option makes more sense since exposures and shingle sizes can vary from house to house.

   Thanks

   Tim

1. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 14, 2003 12:37am | #10

   1/2 SQ. of coverage.. with either WC (16")  at 5" ... or RC  (18" ) at 5.5"..

   we don't do stretch coverage .. only the max. recommended , which is based on triple lap...

   with RC (R&R) it'll be about 2.5 boxes per sq.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   MrMagoo | Feb 14, 2003 01:23am | #11

   Mike,

   Just so I understand your answer...

   If we assume 18" RC at 5.5" exposure and roughly 2.5 boxes per square, that means only 1.25 boxes of shingles per man/day?

   If using larger exposure then sidewall coverage will be larger (sq.ft.), but does the 1.25 boxes/man/day stay the same?

   I'm thinking that depending on the exposure you will obviously get different sidewall coverage(sq.ft.)out of a box/bundle of shingles , but shouldn't the number of boxes/bundles remain fairly constant regardless of the exposure? 

   Tim

1. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 14, 2003 05:33am | #12

   tim... how about on this.... bet i don't get a box  a day.....

   on this job we had new concrete piers sticking out beyond the building line...i figgered i'd jsut drive around and see how one of the olde timers did it back in '90...

   ( uh, that would be 1890.. BTW ).. but nope... no style pattern for that one.. so i dreamed this up... figgerin this is what they WOULD have done....

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   Edited 2/13/2003 9:35:59 PM ET by Mike Smith

   
2. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 14, 2003 05:52am | #13

   tim.....  we never do it easy if we can do it hard.. so 1/2 sq / man / day seems to work..

    and no... the number of boxes  / bundles  depends on your exposure... 2 boxes is based on 7"... 2.5 @ 5".. etc.. there are tables that help you estimate the number you need depending on the exposure..

    here's another one we didn't set any records on...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
3. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 14, 2003 06:01am | #14

   tim...<<<<If using larger exposure then sidewall coverage will be larger (sq.ft.), but does the 1.25 boxes/man/day stay the same?>>>>

   yes , you will get better production.. but on most jobs ... it is always cut up, woven corners, lots of windows and rakes... also , like i said... we'll always be below 6" exposure with an 18" shingle..

    and i wouldn't change my estimate unless we were shingling the side of barn that we could reach the top from the ground...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
4. 
   MrMagoo | Feb 15, 2003 04:35am | #15

   Mike,

   Great pictures of your work!  I love the Craftsmen style house with the tapered columns.

   I can certainly see that you have very, very complete coverage with that 5" or 6" exposure using the 18" RC.   Question: Do you use the 5" exposure because you are in a seacoast/windy environment. Wouldn't a 7" or 8" exposure still give you double shingle coverage compared to triple coverage using 5" or 6"?

   Thanks for your thoughts on this topic.

   Tim

5. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 15, 2003 06:28am | #16

   all the specs i've seen call for triple coverage in sidewall & roofing..

   you can stretch if you use a felt .. but nobody here does it... everyone knows it's just not done.. when you see a 6" course , your eye goes to it and the ruler comes out...

   "yup... some scuzball, cutting corners "...

    but that's coastal New England.. other places... i guess 7" is just fineMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

6. 
   truehaven | Feb 15, 2003 07:05am | #17

   Mike,

   Nice work and nice attachments.  I am a new and struggling design/build contractor and lately I've been bumming a bit cuz I feel overwhelmed but seeing others pull it off and well to boot gives me hope.

   Regards

   Ian

7. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 15, 2003 07:34am | #18

   the overwhelmed part never goes away for me... just retreats from time to time..

    it's a good thing that "been there, done that" helps you learn that it's never completely overwhelming... and can be fun and exciting..

   went to a talk at the library last night... stone carver that did the JFK Memorial... maybe 15 couples ... another 20 or so people....

   half the people in the room were my former customers.. nice feeling.... and at one time or another in their projects.. i felt overwhelmed... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

3. 
   Diamond | Feb 13, 2003 09:29am | #5

   I have put up a lot of shingles and you will be hard pressed to average a square per day per man. Weaving your corners will take more time than if you have corner boards but corner boards and shingles together are kinda cheesy looking. Two people working together should be able to put up about 400-500 sq. feet of bevel in a day on a fairly simple house. Those same two people with experience putting up shingles can get up about 150-200 sq. feet a day on average weaving your corners. The harder the house gets shingleing will get more time consuming at a greater rate than putting up bevel. To answer your question you probably will need to charge at least 2.5 to 3 times as much to put shingles up than bevel.

1. 
   Schelling | Feb 13, 2003 02:16pm | #6

   What Mike and Diamond said.

   Yesterday I put up 150 sq ft in six hours but when I move up to the gables it will be less than 50.  You don't need to know Mike's hourly rate, just your own.

4. 
   andybuildz | Feb 13, 2003 03:05pm | #7

   Depends on the shingles. If its shakes then you'll need to plane every other one on top of everything else like cutting in at the rakes, dormers etc etc. Seems to me you should get at least double for perfections and similar shingles and 2 1/2 x more for shakes and similar. AT LEAST!

   Bevel siding goes up much faster andddd easier.

   Be well paid

                  Namaste  

                             Andy

   "Attachment is the strongest block to realization"
   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

5. 
   BobKovacs | Feb 13, 2003 06:06pm | #8

   Maybe a stupid question, but how can you possibly relate the cost for siding (which is based on the square footage of exterior wall), to the square footage of floor area of the house?  This makes no sense to me, and is the reason that so many contractors end up in the toilet financially.

   If you're bidding siding, you need to know the quantity of siding.  Then it would be a simple matter of determining the manhour difference per square between the two materials, multiply by the number of squares, and determine your cost based on your hourly rate.

   I hate to be harsh, but you're flirting with disaster in a big way by doing what you're doing.

   Bob