How are you charging for shingled siding installation? I told my siding sub I had “about” 32 net squares of area, roughed out by taking gross wallframe areas less rough openings. The actual finished area, netting out trim, comes to 28.7 squares.
My guy wants to charge for shingles used, including all those he culled, dropped, stepped on, lost, cut at rakes, windows, etc. He didn’t supply shingles, I bought ’em.
His number comes out higher than the 32, and he thinks he is owed extra money.
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Replies
normal is net area installed... but this is not the time to be figuring it out..
the area should be agreed before the job starts , and then the job becomes a Lump Sum job
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It was agreed to. 32. I figured the quantity, he didn't. But since he has blown through more shingles than 32, though waste, loss, culls, he wants to charge for more than that, when in fact, the net area is less than the agreed upon 32.
I said, "it ain't what you use up, it's what you put on the walls." But he refuses to count that, only how many boxes he's gone through. I should have been counting what was picked up, thrown away, or burned.
I've had it with this nitpicker. Everything is an extra. As regards this, I will tell him to get out his pencil and tape and calculator, and show me his figures for net area. I've got mine, I've triple-checked them, and I am close.
What really bothers me about this guy is that he signed on, in writing, agreeing to quantities and terms, and insurance requirements. Before job time, last winter, he had canceled his WC policy, saying, in writing, that he would renew before start up. He never did, and I am forced, under the terms of my comp policy, to pick it up for him and his helper. There is some serious money involved here, and it is more than all the extras he is claiming.
Send him a registered letter outlining the agreed upon price, his initial agreement to provide WC insurance, your calculations of the area, his bill for the completed work and a list of your payments to him. Show in simple language what your position is and leave it at that. There are not too many tradesmen who will pursue it any further. If you have paid his agreed price and covered the insurance costs, I don't see any possible complaint. Sleep easy.
I guess there can be two sides to it , but Mike would be right but , I am too. Now Im confused.
I tell you on the phone I get .35 cents per ft to hang and finish drywall. The hanging and taping are figgured off board count of rock used . If you are not happy with the scrap , dont hire me again. Im not going to go out to every job to bid a days work. I took the job on the phone and you accepted on the phone . Over all thats the best method unless you are not happy , or I dont get paid. My roofers price on the phone the same way.
Your insurance problem is another subject. You are probably basing some anger off of that to the shingle job.
Im not telling you what is right with your sub by what i said above because we werent there. Im just stating thats how I rolled on sub work.
Tim Mooney
I understand unit pricing and how it applies to most all materials and trades. Here are some of the things where installation labor (in my neighborhood) is based on net quantity installed: roofing, siding, hardwood flooring, tile work, and painting. Shingles.
The only things I pay for (and I do) that are priced based on "materials needed" are drywall and carpet. Cannot think of any others in this category.
When we went to hang the gypboard here, my rocker, who I let do my ordering, brought in 225 boards, after I had told him he needed 195. After it was all hung, we took back 31. I paid for 192, because he wrecked two that needed to be bent, using way way too much water. I pay for scrap in sheetrock work, but not mistakes.
This carpenter-shingler of mine, and he is still on the job, now as my interior trim sub, is trying to bend the rules, applying sheetrock pricing rules to shingle work.
Re the WC issue, my audit is tomorrow, and when I find out exactly what his coverage is costing me, I am making him a new proposal. Since he, as an uninsured sub, is essentially my "employee," I'll offer him an above-the-table hourly wage offer, including any helpers, plus some kind of bonus based on what he saves me versus my budget. My budget is what he bid, which was the total cost I anticipated. My cost now looks like it has a wage component, taxes and insurance component, and a bonus component.
If he doesn't take it he's down the road, no severance pay, and I am ahead of him, enough, on money, that I come out whole. With the slowdown in work here brought on by winter and other reasons, I now have my pick of good carpenters.
Edited 11/16/2003 4:39:01 PM ET by Mr. Micro
tim..... my subs price the same as micro's..
so much per board..... they come in, measure, get their board count... then they convert it to a price for the job.. we agree on the price.. they do the job...
if their quanitity is a lot different than my estimate, i mention it to them and they recount..
but most of the subs charge for net area.. the same as micro's..
i like schillingham's solution.. i would also backcharge them for the comp..
since it's going to be a " labor only", micro will be on the hook for the full amount he pays to the subcontractor after he's audited at the end of his insurance year..
needless to say.. these guys are not going to be working together in the future.. but as long as micro is scrupulously fair.. and decides any questions in the sub's favor.. then the guy should take his money and move on..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with all you have said . I will tell you where dealing with me might differ . Of course it would be your choice.
No one picked up on the price I quoted above which is important to my way of doing things.
I want it to be easy for both the contractor and I, but also very fair for both. Here is how it goes with me;
Price for calling on the phone and not comming out is .35 cents hung and finished for contractors that use me. If you want me to come out and give a bid , it will be .50 cents . You wont hear the .50 cents , you will get a total bid only, plus I will furnish the materials. The second choice buys responsiblity of the job from stocking to clean up . Either way is reasonable , but its a choice to which way better serves a customer. Home owners building their own house dont get the top option. The top option works better for real builders, plus keeps my pricing affordable.
If I came out and bid every job , I would have to charge somewhere for the time lost. I would have to figgure in that I wouldnt get as many jobs this way , losing a PORTION . My phone rang every night most of the time and there was no reason to go bidding, except for the customers that needed it. So, an up charge.
Tim Mooney
Mike has a point about fixed sum but that is generally with contracting directly with HO in my experience. Twenty years of subbing roofing and siding in three states says that it has always been based on materials used/packages openned.
There are abuses of that method on both sides, to be sure. I have seen guys put three bundles of wood shingles on the fire to warm themselves up and charge for laying them. I have also seen a hime improvement contractor consistently order five to ten percent less material than needed on every single job trying to force efficiency and then create need for waiting or another trip back to finish the job.
But that is the system I have seen everybody use.
One reason is that bidding lump sum based on plans can be innaccurate, especially on custom houses where change orders happen constantly. I gave builders my basic price and modifiers for pitch etc and they could estimate most jobs without calling me.
When figuring by measuement, I did not subtract for window and door opennings. That amount just about covered for waste on the job.
Now, one reason that was particularly important to me as an installer for charging based on material used was this, If my builder bought the cheapest cedar shingles available, it created extra work for me to cull the bad ones out and to fit and plane to acheive any kind of decent job. I needed to be paid for all that extra work somehow if a cheap asz was trying to save bucks on my time. It cost me as much to pick up a bad shingle, throw int on the ground, and then pick it up again to burn as it did to pick up a good shingle, and install it. That is one reason I went to always providing my own materials eventually, since I could be sure of costs to provide a good quality job.
If he agree to provide his own WC and then reneged, you have a case for withholding the amount your comp company is tacking on, IMO
I'm not taking sides here, just offering my experience for background.
Here is another possibility, and I hope you don't get offended by it, but I know you tend to be very persoinally involved iun each sub and phase of your work. I could not work with you breathing down my neck or looking over my shoulder and offering advice for every thing that I did. I have had customers who slowed me down and hurt the quality of the job by trying to 'help' like that. If any portion of that was the case here, I would speculate that he is trying to recoup for the meddlesome factor costing him time. Fact is - I don't know what happened since I am not there..
Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, Pif, I left him just about completely alone. He does excellent exterior work and I told him so from the beginning. I was far too busy doing the metal roofing, and shop-building all the built in components, to bother nebbing around with the shingle and trim guy.
Good to know..
Excellence is its own reward!
An agreement is still an agreement. Im glad you have control of the situation. You two had already agreed , plus the insurance thing he didnt follow through on which he will have to make right or let you do it. Small price to pay for you to be happy. Ill write a little more to Mike as an idea for you both later.
Tim Mooney