I realize you get what you pay for but what is the real difference between 25,30,35,50yr. Shingles? For instance what is the actual average length of time before people replace their roofs regardless if they used a 25yr. or 50yr. shingle, is their really a 25yr. span difference? Than how many warranty claims are actually made and honored in those different time frames? Sure any reasonable claims under 10 years may be honored but has anyone ever won a 49yr. claim? <!—-><!—-> <!—->
In short where is the curve cross between the shingle year rating you get, cost of, real lifespan of the product and what premium do you pay on the warranty difference opposed to the components that go into the product difference? <!—-> <!—->
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I'm sure others will answer your Q more directly but let me say, based on your screen name, that we here in NC have issues with mold/mildew/algae on roofs and other than making sure you buy an 'AR' (algae resistant) shingle, it may not matter if you get 30 or 50 year, if they get black streaks all over them, they look like do-do no matter how many years of life they have left on them. I'm not really sure how long-term the AR treating is but I know short term (say less than 15 years) it does work. Either that or get a very dark color that won't show this ugliness.
Most warrantee claims are sidestepped by the manufacturers as they send inspectors trained to fins something wrong with the install and re-direct the blame. The claims honored are generally only with long time large companies who do continuing business using large volumns of their products so as to have their ear.
winning a 49 year claim on a 50 year roof is a silly idea anyways. after prorating and depreciation offset by inflation in job costs, the payout would be the equivalent of a happy meal at McDs for the crew.
That said, much can be learned from the ratings and the weight of the product and the style in which it is made, for purposes of comparison. My guess is that the 50 year roof products I have seen appear to be about three times the thickness of the older 15-20 year products I used to install
And some of those old 15 year products have lasted 20-30 years in certain circumstances, while others were shot in 6-7 years.
In my experience, the two things that shorten the life of a roof most are the solar orientation and the quality ( rather - the lack thereof)of the labour installing it. I suppose I should add hail and tornado also....
RE: solar orientation - heat and UV rays really age roofing product, just like it does your own skin. Composite roofing in the high altitudes of CO where UV rays can be triple what they are near sea level, and on a south facing roof in northern climates will age far faster than normal.
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Ok understand all the factors. Everything equal what’s the average span between roof replacements. If the avg. roof is replaced say every 35yrs. anyways what’s the point in buying a 50yr. shingle? Further is the price difference from a 40yr. to 25yr. shingle worth the insurance to make the average 35yr. replacement date or in reverse worth the gamble on a 25 or 30yr. <!----><!----><!---->
I'm deffinently not expecting to make a claim, especially a 49yr. old one or even a 10 unless it's real obvious. I'm more interested in the value of the price tag as to how much is really added on as a sales pitch that this thing will last 50yrs. Or how much is really in better materials and performance and how much is that worth?<!----><!---->
I'm about 25 years in as a roofer at this point. Here's what I know for sure:
1-Very seldom do shingles leak. Most shingle problems are cosmetic. A 50 yr shingle is thicker than a 30 yr shingle, but has the same amount of aggregate to shield against UV rays.
2-99% of leaks are at flashing points.
3-Most blowoff problems are installer related. If there's not enough nails or they're not placed properly, the wind will get them.
4-Shingle warranties are a joke.
Here's my MO:
1-30 yr dimensional shingles are the best roofing bargain going. I'll gladly sell you 40 yr or 50 yr or lifetime warranty shingles, but all but 30 yr are special order, so you're going to pay a premium for anything else. And they may not last much longer.
2-Spend your money on the best flashings you can afford. Copper, lead or lead coated copper and make sure the flasher knows what the hell he's doing. Half my work is redoing bad work.
3-See #2
4-I mostly sell one brand of shingle. They reward my customers for my loyalty and keep me selling their product by going beyond the fine print on their warranty. I don't know how to make this work for you.View Image
interesting. what brand of shingle?
Certainteed.View Image
I like your first statement....you get what you pay for and as another wrote I believe in top quality details.....flashing and the like get a real workout from movement to weather.
That being the case I put decra shingles on my house when I built....been on about 5 yrs now and the absolute best money I've ever spent on a home. The heat reflectivity, the epoxy baked on crushed ceramic finish that's easily cleaned.....which I haven't had to yet.....I haven't experienced staining, mold or mildew.....surrounded by tall trees.
They contain recycled content and they'll outlive you so they are quite buzz-worded - GREEN! If they ever wear out they can be recycled. Save energy and phenomenal lifespan....ok.....duuuuhhhh!
They're going on a retreat cabin I'm preparing to build and anything else that needs a roof.
Now if I could only get them to send me commission checks.....I've talked a dozen people into using them and they've all been delighted they chose to spend the extra $ on materials.....as far as labor.....prep work takes a little longer but actual shingle panel installation fly's by....don't let anybody try and hit you up for exorbitant labor. I've shingled in the past with 30 yr shingles and I've done Decra's.....only reason for Decra to cost more in labor is if you have a lot of odd roof lines....for the general roof it all goes together just a quick.
Pedro the Mule - Enjoying keeping my fur dry under Decra Shingles
Enjoying keeping my fur dry under Decra Shingles
http://www.decra.com/index.htm
Thanks for bringing up this line of products. I hadn't known about them.
How much per square, more of less? Do you have any recommendations or favorites among the styles?
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http://www.decra.com/index.htm
Thanks for bringing up this line of products. I hadn't known about them.
How much per square, more of less? Do you have any recommendations or favorites among the styles?
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I use their standard line....extremely durable with 120 mph wind rating....3 Dimensional which provides a nice gap to buffer heat transfer and give a great look....It's been about six months since I did a price check and fuel costs do tend to affect things like this. Probably more in production than transportation. Although they are "thick and durable"....they weigh considerably less than traditional shingles.
With all of the starter pieces, trim, caps, panels, stainless screws etc. they'll cost you about $160/sq. Since they reflect heat out during the summer lowering AC costs....not just electricity but allowing you to down size the equipment to begin with and reflect heat back in....applicable to finished attics and cathedrals....the extra cost is made up some upon installation and over time.
My two biggest points......extra comfort in the summer....stops hot spots and roughly 90% of infradred heat transfer from the sun....secondly for long term buyers and resale....you'll never have to pay for tearoff, reroof and disposal.......oh maybe if you live 150 years......
Pedro - I hate hot weather, butt gets stuck on the assphalt
View Image
ncproperties,
I suggest you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.
The price difference between 30year vs. 50yr./lifetime shingles is negligible. Using my most recent quotes from my suppliers------the difference in SHINGLE costs between 30yr. and 50 yr-----is $635 for a 20 square roof.
think about that $635 for a minute---what is it going to do for you????? From day one----it is going to get you a thicker,heavier, better looking shingle with almost certainley a better wind resistance rating.
as a roofing contractor---that $635 represents maybe 6% of the sales price of the roof---in todays dollars
fast forward 30 years-----do you intend to own the property 30 years from now????
will a 30 year shingle get you to that point?????-- i wouldn't bet on it.
will the 50 year shingle get you do the 30 year mark????? I would definitely bet on THAT---in fact I have--on my own home.
so---my suggestion to you would be---stop worrying about the $635----and concentrate on finding a high caliber local contractor----and pay the slight extra for 50 year shingles. If the 50 year shingles get you even ONE year additional lifespan over the 30 years you will have come out substantially on the deal.
BTW-- i hate to disagree with grant on this---but for the money---it is unlikely that you would be able to upgrade to copper for drip edge, valley metal,chimney flashing etc. for the same $635. Factory coated aluminum might not last as long as the copper----but it would stimm be more than adequate to get you to the 30 year point--and beyond.
also----50 year/lifetimne shingles are not special order everywhere. HERE they are a standard,in stock item at my suppliers---and if i need MORE than they have in stock---it takes about one day to get them in on one of the numerous regulary scheduled deliveries to the suppliers.( my usual supplier get shipments from the manufactureres each and every day)
If youy are planning to keep the house for 30 years--the 50 year shingles are a bargain.
Best wishes,
stephen
I think grant's rec on the flashing was right. Around here, believe it or not, a lot of guys still use mill grade AL flashing. I doubt that would last more than 25-30 years. I might use it ona camp with a 20 year roof, but on the real homes, I go to copper or lead coated copper that I know will outlast the shingles.
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that's why I specifically said " factory coated" it's gonna depend on where you are-----As Grant indicates where he is 50 year shingles are a special order item----here they are stock.
HERE i notice for the last 5-10 years that coiled trim stock has gotten absurdly flimsy---- luckily my suppliet stocks a thicker aluminum in 18"x 10' sheets that are specifically un-bent valley flashing.--- the metal is thicker and I don't have to hem pieces to get them to stay flat, etc. probably gonna depend WHEN in the market cycle you buy---and the compexity of the house.
I am positive I have done roofs where the cost of copper drip edge,copper valley flashing, copper chimney flashing and a few copper SBV's and WSF's would have exceeded the cost of the actual shingles.
all in all-- the cost of the shingles is not the area to be focused on.
Best wishes,
stephen
That may be however, the folks here in Texas don't usually worry about warranties as the roof is ruined at least every 5 to ten years by a hail storm. I just had my 3rd re-roof in just over 20 years because of hail. So I get 25 year shingles and try to get a good roofer to take care of the fine points.I had a vent-a-ridge installed this time (no more whirly birds). Noticed a big difference in the AC this year.Just my 2 cents ....;>)
timby,-- here--customers looking to sell their home in a few years generally won't pay the additional $635 for 50 year shingles-----so I suppose customers who fully expect mechanical damage due to hail would follow the same line of reasoning.
Interestingly--we had a major hail storm here in the summer of 2007--basically it is the only storm of that nature we have ever had here in my working lifetime-----the aftermath of the hail storm actually increased my ratio of customers using 50 year shingles !
best wishes,
stephen
Hazlett,
With the hailstorm this year, shingle shortages, and costs skyrocketing, I made some big decisions...
Before considering a 30yr replacement or a 50yr/lifetime shingle, I knew that the 50 yr. old home's roof decking needed to be addressed. That cost me about $3,600 for 1/2" cdx nailed on 24" centers on a 3/12 ranch home roof. Although the "damage" was due to age and about half a dozen new roofs since 1977, the 1x8 ton&groove had split or knots had come lose. Had a lot of input from this forum to help me with information I needed, too!!
After selecting the GAF/ELK Armor Shield II and getting it delivered, I found that these 50yr./Lifetime shingle come in 3 bundles per square, not 4 bundles like others in that classification... a confusing fact, but a good one since the weight of the overlaid redecking and the lifetime shingle came out lighter than was predicted. I was priced $201. a sq., $450 for 6sq. of Ice and water, and installed with 30#felt, when the insurance company was paying $170. a sq. So the $1,550 extra was a factor, but the insurance company told me that I would be credited $385.00 a year off my homeowner's policy... I'll have that extra amount paid off in just over 4 years, and with the certified installer and 6-nail per shingle/starter strip done right, I have the 20yr. GAF defective material and 130mph wind warranties...
With future material shortages, higher labor and material costs, and then today CNN announced that Allstate and State Farm are increasing insurance rates.... When the wind howls and it does hail again, I'll have on a good roof and the hope that next time all I have to cough-up is the deductible...
Maybe I made a good choice to do all these upgrades now...time will tell.... ;>)
Bill
"the roof is ruined at least every 5 to ten years by a hail storm."
Another good reason to go with a top of the line 50 year. Several of the Malarkey shingles ( and other brands) have impact rating that resist hail damage. Why re-roof every time a storm blows through?
fingers and toes,I would LOVE to use Malarkey shingles---but they are not distributed in this area-- i heard about these and researched them maybe 8-10 years ago when I first got a computer the difference as descrimbed to me is that a typical shingle is much like a strip of old fashioned 90# rolled roofing---but the Malarkey shingles are more like a strip of Modified Bitumen--much tougher and more flexible
anyhow---closest i could figure---they were available on the Northwest coast---but not here in Ohio
best wishes,
stephen
I don't know about you but when I get golf ball to baseball size hail every 5 to 10 years I'm not sure I want to trust that the shingles up there haven't sustained enough damage to be replace. I'm sure the ones that look OK have been compromised in some way by the hail. This last early summer hail storm destroyed 2 whirlybirds, gutters, car port (26 gauge galv), back porch cover (26 gauge galv), Vent stack covers, windows screens on the North west side as well as my 12 year old roof shingles (25 year rated). It even bent one of the elements on my TV antenna.I'm sorry I haven't seem any shingles that stand up to those storms. I don't see the added expense for us. I do know that this was a banner season for roofers. They are still replacing roofs as even though the storm was several months ago.
Malarchey does its impact tests by firing ball bearings at the shingles. Check out their website, it's fairly convincing. We don't get big hail here, although when I was young a storm swept through Alberta that killed all my Grandfather's chickens before he could get them into the barn. I'm not sure how big the hailstones were originally as they grew with each telling.
Better than 90% of the homes in our neighborhood had their roofs replaced. I believe the others didn't have the money for the deductible. The insurance company had to pony up nearly 9K just for the damage to my home. Storm damage is so prevalent in our area that the state of Texas allowed the insurance companies to re-write the coverage policies to state that if the damage was the result of storms the deductible was set at a much higher rate. This was to mitigate their loses. I felt so sorry for the insurance companies ....;>)
Storm damage is so prevalent in our area that the state of Texas allowed the insurance companies to re-write the coverage policies to state that if the damage was the result of storms the deductible was set at a much higher rate. This was to mitigate their loses.
The bad....the good...the bad....
The bad is that State Farm has a standard set of deductible levels, I chose $500. They also have a wind and hail clause that says they deduct 1% of what the homeowner policy is written for... That meant an additional $1,600... Added together are tough to swallow.
The good side is that the 1% covers all the outside buildings you have covered. After 30yrs of living here and 3 outside buildings being built during that time, covering them all with that one hail-deduction helped. To offset increased rates, I did go back with "Lifetime" GAF/ELK Armor Shield II Impact Resistant shingles at $201. a square installed and out of my pocket, I paid about $31/sq over the 30yr shingle paid by the insurance company. Having those Impact shingles will lower my homeowner's policy $385 each year these shingles stay on the house and one of the buildings, so my expense will be paid back in just over four years, then keep paying back...
Less than a week ago, one of the Metroplex TV stations announced that State Farm and Allstate Insurance companies are raising rates.... Let's see, 3 things that are inevitable: Death, Taxes,....&...Rising Insurance Rates...
Bill
Did you ever get settled up? I haven't seen your thread come back up and no email from you re the final bill.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No news is good news......... Called the roofing company's business office two weeks ago, tomorrow. Discussed the 13.39 overage of Armor Shield II shingles, 11.25 sq. of overage on the CDX decking, and 5.12sq. of tear off's wrongful measurements....comes to an overcharge of $3,977.50...to their bid-specific contract...
Before redecking, some roof areas, mainly where knots had cracked out or split the 1958 pine, probably some original decking repairs of 1x8" material about 24" long segments coming out of that...they charge $5. a foot to repair, the inspector said...but can't be over $150-$200, tops.
Haven't heard a peep from them since that phone conversation...
Bill
BillState Farm didn't say anything to me about reducing my rates if I were to have impact resistant shingles installed. I would have had that done as I'm all for any reduction in my overly high insurance rates. The metal roofing on the carport and back patio have weathered most of the hail storms to date. However, with this last one I had some nice dings. The roof still worked but was cosmetically damaged. So, I was going to have to pay the 1% whether I had the metal roofing replaced or not. To me it was a no brainer.It's so hard for the consumer to know anything that may help reduce the cost of insurance as insurance companies are all for high rates and low risk to them.Thanks for the info....
The roof still worked but was cosmetically damaged. So, I was going to have to pay the 1% whether I had the metal roofing replaced or not. To me it was a no brainer.
The two 14 year old metal roofs amounted to 22 squares(if their measurements are actually correct). What was interesting, and scary, was the insurance company started at one pay rate, but as the roofing market would have it, by the time my roofing contract was sent in, a "Preminum" R-panel roof (I suppose that means a 30yr paint warranty) was paid at $700 a square....
At the point you got yours repaired, I curious as to how much it cost you?
Another oddity about metal R-panel was noted by a salesman at the local Mueller metal company, West of Ft. Worth. He said they had two R-panel demo's roofs set up outside. One was over an open framework of Purlin/tubing, the other had OSB/Plywood decking over the framework, then the metal over it. When he observed both after several months, he said the cosmetic appearance of metal R-panel without anything under it faired better than the one with decking under it.... I never understood the whole logic of that...but they're not the ones doing the metal roofing and I didn't do a follow-up to "pick his brain".... ;>)
Bill
Thanks guys, lots of info but still undecided. Does anyone have any input as to the impact on the value of the house for any appraisal or resale value? (All current economic and housing market discussions aside) Does the use of a 25 or 50yr make a difference? <!----><!----><!---->
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Also a lot of the discussion I guess has been based on the assumption that a roofing contractor will be involved and there won't be, so here's the real skivy on my decision process; <!----><!---->
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Location, mid-Michigan, in-town so no wild open field winds - no tree overhangs, all peaks run east to west. <!----><!---->
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Entire roof 21 squares, about 10 to be done now. <!----><!---->
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About 135' of gutter line, 275' of drip edge, 75' flashing plus chimney, 400 ft ice and water, and about 65' of fascia board to replace. Decking on upper story is in fine shape, its 100yr. old original double layer 1x12 tongue and grove cedar. Underside runs perpendicular to roof slope outer runs parallel to slope. <!----><!---->
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1/2 the house is a 2 story with one side a 10-12 or more and on the other comes down the same about 7' from the peak to the only valley and transitions to nearly flat for about 16'. Only chimney splits this peak. This 2 story section is the one that must be done now and the rest I'll pick away at later. The lower roofs are all walk able and an easy ground reach. <!----><!---->
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Other factors; I’m flat broke and roof will start wk after I'm laid off so I can work on it which was suppose to be this week. <!----><!---->
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House is a 3 unit owner occupied (me) rental, I'm trying to get the heck out of. I want to keep it as a rental but just can't live here anymore. Bought it when I was single without child and took the smallest apt. <!----><!---->
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I'll be doing most of the tear off on my own. Good friend has remodel bizz and I'll be using him and one of his guys paying them both cash, lowered flat hr. rate out of hand. Adding a little for using his dump trailer. Roof top delivery from supplier with shingles. All material, lift and dump fees will go on the credit card. Thanks guys
Stephen,Do you charge significantly more for the 50 year shingles vs. the 30 years? Our roofer charges 50% more, so with the extra shingle cost and the extra labor costs, the heavier shingle cost about the same per year as the 30 year shingle.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
i don't charge ANYTHING additional to install the 50 year shingle other than the the difference in the material cost( $635)
i want to produce the best product I can---so i actually WANT to use the 50 yr. whenever possible other than the material cost--it doesn't cost me any more to use it--so why charge more
my supplier delivers for the same delivery cost as a 30 year
I have to install exactly the same number of shingles
if the shingles can't be delivered by the supplier to the roof top and WE have to hump 'em up a ladder--it doesn't cost ME any more( although 4 bundles per sq. vs. 3 bundles per sq means Branden has a few more trips up and down the ladder it's still not costing me any more $$$$)
during warm weather 50 year shingles cut and form essentially as easy as 30 year shingles----and we generally refuse cold weather installs because i don't feel I can deliver my best work in cold weather
Basically-- I don't see that i have any measurable reason to charge MORE for the 50 year based on the cost of production what it means for me is that I can comfortably suggest to the homeowner the benfits of the 50 year shingle-straight out give the customer the difference in material cost which they can verify if they choose---and they are assured I have no financial benefit in steering them towards the 50 year shingle( i make the same 30 year or 50 year) they get a much better roof for a negligible increase in cost and I get to use the material I prefer. i feel strongly enough about this that I have thought long and hard for at least 2 years about not giving my customers any choice in the matter----in effect making 50 year shingles my "base" model 15-20 years ago when i eliminated offering 20 year 3 tabs---customers accepted 25 year 3 tabs, when i eliminated 25 year 3 tabs customers accepted 30 year 3 tabs( which WERE special order), the market made it even easier to eliminate 3 tab shingles all together and customers overwhelmingly accepted dimensional shingles------almost certainley i can discontinue 30 year dimensionals and only offer 50 year dimenbsionals----- I am kind of semi-retired now so if i am going to even do a roof it is going to absolutely be done entirely my way with zero customer accomodation other than color!!!someone else mentioned Decra shingles-- which i think i looked at 3 years ago----a ceramic coated steel shingle????? If i was 15-20 years younger--or remotely interested in new construction I would be seriously moving in that direction myself.
stephen
Do you charge significantly more for the 50 year shingles vs. the 30 years? Our roofer charges 50% more, so with the extra shingle cost and the extra labor costs, the heavier shingle cost about the same per year as the 30 year shingle.
Stephen and I have discussed this previously. 50s cost about $35/per sq more than 30s. Since they are special order, I always order extras just in case we run short so we don't have to wait a month to finish a couple of shingles to get paid and I can't return any extras, so I have to eat them.
My guys want more to install them since there are more bundles and weight per square to move onto the roof.
50s typically take a 1 1/2" nail which is a little more expensive, but mainly is just one more operation to remember to get the right nails to the job. Usually, we start the next job with what's left over from the last.
And lastly and most importantly: My OH & P is charged on a percentage of sales. It's taken me 10 years to tune that in. If I'm selling something for what I bought it for, I'm losing money. It gives me a nice warm, fuzzy feeling to provide a customer with something at cost, but how does that pay for my kid's college or my retirement? View Image
Grant,
you make an excellent point about about HOW you account for profit and overhead.
in my last post I started to write about that----and then deleted it because it would have led to a long discussion of the "PROOF" method
Basically I account for profit, overhead etc. via my own perverted version of the PROOF method in which profit and overhead etc. are accounted for via labor---so i don't really mark up materials. using 2009 as an example-- somewhere betweeen Thanksgiving 2008 and the middle of Jaunuary 2009 I will sit down and work out pretty precisely how much i will make and exactly what rates I will charge for 2009.
Like you I have tracked my actual overhead costs for years and years, i will factor in family living expenses, the investments i plan to make in 2009, vacations i plan to take, taxes which must be paid and so forth. i will also determine how many hours i want to work--or think i can work.--- the last 16 months have beenatypical due to a hailstorm in 2007----but usually i have planned on about 1000 hours split approx. 300 overhead hours/700 actual billable production hours---it becomes simple arithmetic to determine my labor charges since we are in a recession for the forseeable future-- AND since I am now semi retired--- i will probably be scaling back to a planned 500 hours of production------so it is simple to determine my charges--everything will be based on those 500 hours----for me, material costs don't enter into it much-they are instead passed straight through to the customer
the upside is-- i get to enjoy that warm fuzzy feeling of up grading the customer to 50 year shingles AT COST--because I have front loaded all MY costs at the 30 year shingle levelyour guys may tell you they want more money because there are more bundles to move----but the actual increase in what they are charging isWAAAAAAAY out of proportion to the actual,negligible difference in cost incurred.
the actual number of shingles installed is exactly the same-----lets say an installer lays 2 square/hour AND they need to be carried up a ladder by hand--upgrading from 30 year at 3 bundles per square to 50 year at 4 bundles per square means 2 additional trips up a ladder per hour for somebody. what does that actually cost???? nothing really
Best wishes,
stephen