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I bought a stapler to put on some roofs before i read the directions on the package that said i should nail the shingles. Since then i’ve felt sheepish about admitting i staple shingles, but this is the tool i have and the roofs seem to hold just dandy, even in high winds–80 mph is about the best we’ve come up with so far–with a variety of single-ply shingles of various brands.
I’ve been googling and searching BT, and what i seem to find is that most people recommend nails or staples, some only nails, and only one site preferred staples. The manufacturers require nails, except GAF (if i recall correctly), which allows both.
What i wasn’t able to find was anything besides rules. I hear nails hold better in wind, but that’s not been my experience and i can’t find any articles that show this to be true. On the face of it, it would seem i get eight fasteners per shingle (both legs of the staple) compared to four with normal nailing, and six with high-wind nailing.
What i’d like to hear are real-life stories about whether nails or staples work equally well, or if nails are recommended just bec it’s harder to put a staple in the zone and parallel with the shingle. Anyone have problems with staples backing out?
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splints... staples suck... do you mean 1" crown ?
strip a couple roofs... staples overdrive... they go in parallel to uplift... got sucked into roof staples when they first came out... threw 'em away and went back to handnails...
when roof nailers finally came out....used them....still have to be careful with straight driving... but not the same problems as staples..
grab the shingle and rip it off... the shingle will come off in your hand...usually in one piece... the staple will still be sticking in the sheathing..... clean..
now grab a nailed shingle and rip it off.. the shingle will tear and come off in pieces...
the preponderance will favor the nail.. preponderance is enough for me...
*Staples are not permitted down here in sunny, occasionally windy Florida. However, back about 15 years ago I stapled my own house, four to a shingle. Never had a problem.A few years ago a large pine dropped and squashed a section of the roof and since it was major repair time I figured it would be a good time to reshingle, too.Staples really do not hold as well as nails. The large crown staples I used appeared to damage by crushing a thin line between the legs and I was able to easily, very easily, pull each and every shingle away from the staples, leaving just a hole about 1/16" skinny and the width of the staple.Staples will most likely never pull out of the sheathing but the shingle is just too flimsy a product to hold adequately against what amounts to four little dull knife blades. It's not the legs that hold the shingle but the area of the head of the nail.A better example of area holding power would be that of a row of roofing nails alone or a row of simplex or roofing nails with tin tabs on the roofing felt. You've probably seen that demonstration of holding power.
*Code does not allow staples here.Six nails per shingle are required, and hold exceptionally well. All of this comes from experience, and blown off shingles in high winds. James DuHamel
*I have 2 Air Roof staplers and 2 slap staplers. All my roofs are perfect. I have only seen one roof that was destroyed by fasteners and those fasteners were from a air roof nailer. The nails were not fully driven and maybe a hundred had poked up thru shingle above. Problem may have been the cheap gun, the cheap contractor, the cold weather, or improper tool set up... I have no clue.Staples are as easy as nails here. I do not work in huricane area however.Have driven thousands and thousands of staples. Will buy a roof nailer someday... maybe...near the stream,aj
*Dear SG,Glad to see you broke this topic out on it's own.I have before me the very recent revisions of the CertainTeed Shingle Applicator's Manual 5th edition and their Shingle Technology Manual 6th Edition. These documents contain the most truth I have ever seen out of the roofing industry. All the truth? Not by a long shot.::Technology, Section 13, "Why Shingles Fail Prematurely" snips::When a whole shingle blows off and the proper sized nail was correctly installed, the shingle will have pulled over the nail. (read: nail attachment to the roof is more than adequate)Most shingles are not warranted to withstand wind at forces greater than 60-80 MPH. Regardless...[they] have been tested to resist blow-offs that greatly exceed that level. (read: warranties are devised by the marketing department)A common cause of shingle blow-offs is the misalignment and/or incorrect seating of staples. Most manufacturers are recommending nails be used. (read: the industry found a scapegoat)Good Luck. (read: you'll need it b/c we are not going to give you enough information to make good choices)::Applicator, Chapter 8, "Correct Fastening" snips::Staples can perform acceptably... (read: they can't credibly deny this)Staple are prohibited...[many instances]... (read: nails are more reliable and should be used in stressful applications)Staples must be power driven...minimum outside crown width of 1"... (read: no slap staples allowed)Special instructions for cold weather, high wind, steep slopes, open soffits, particular shingles, pneumatic installation... (read: roofing is a trade that requires study)My experience tells me that blow-offs can happen with any fastener type if it is placed outside the zone. Plenty of roofs go the distance with slap staplers. I've seen both nails and staples back out, right though the shingles. This is mostly condensation working the nails by swelling the roof deck.Ever, Fred
*Mike, yes, 1" staples. I use 1" long for asphalt shingles, and have put on (sidewall) cedar shakes with 1 1/2". I tried nailing the shakes with 8d, but they kept splitting, despite blunting each nail. Ralph, you're saying you could easily remove 15 y.o shingles from around the over-driven staples? Wouldn't an over-driven nailed shingle (depending on quality, i suppose) likely suffer the same fate? Slap staplers, AJ and Fred? Ignorance rears its blonde head: the only thing that comes to mind are the ones used to tack the tar paper--are there similar, bigger ones made for shingles? Hand-driven? How to regulate the drive depth?James, you say staples are not allowed in your area and mention blown-off roofs--were these nailed roofs, or ones that were stapled before the injunction against them?Square area of staple (.06 in) is half that of a roofing nail with a 3/8" head (.11 in), but i wondered whether shape might not be more important than size. I experimented hand nailing v. stapling a shingle and let them sit a few minutes to warm up, pulled BOTH off easily. I thought maybe the fasteners were just there to hold the shingles down until the tar glued them into a unit. I sure would rather strip nails than staples, though, on re-roof.It seems counter-intuitive to perforate the area just above the slot with a nail, that it would be that much easier to rip up in that line. Do you guys see failures like this?My future dream home has a mansard roof (12 nails per shingle?!?!) so the info that came out in the IKO shingle thread and here is much appreciated.
*splints.. the 12 per shingle refers to the 6 on the nail line (hurricane nail) and the 6 on the nail line of the overlapping shingle which also pentetrates the lower shingle.. so: 6+6 = 12 a slap stapler is a heavy duty stapler used for roofing... not a good thing at all.. not as good as a 1" crown roof staple.. which is not as good as a roofing nail.. andjust because something "works" is no reason for a contractor to bet the ranch on using it.. since we have to stand behind our work , why would we chance using a staple when a nail does a better, more reliable , warranteed by the shingle mfr, job...wood shingles:for white cedar wood shingles we use a 3.5d hot dipped galv. shingle nail or a 4d ring shank box nail if gunnedfor rc we use a 4d box nail .. box nails are designed not to split ...some use a 1/2" crown staple.. but they're bogus in the salt air atmosphere ..and will rust out before the shingles fail
*Do a few tear-offs and you'll see the difference. Usually...all ya gotta do is get the shingle-eater started under a few shingles......and if stapled....whole/big sections peel off in whole/big sheets. I'm talking like 3 or 4ft by 5 or 6 ft. You never find it that easy with nails. The roof subs love it when they find the tear-off was a staple job. That's not to say staples don't ever hold.....just I've deduced that nails are better. Along with the manuafcturers.......But......it's your house....and you already have a stapler. Jeff
*Splint,Several years ago, my area was not considered part of the hurricane zone. We are 60 miles inland of the coast, and had not had any severe hurricanes in quite a while come through here. Then one did. It hit Galveston, and stayed on the coast right up through Sabine Pass. My area got hit hard. Nails or staples made no difference, because most roofs were completely ripped off the walls plates. Roofs gave out before the shingles did.Now, we are in a hurricane zone, and high wind zone. We must follow wind code, and wind code here says no staples, 6 nails per shingle, wind rated shingles. And, a lot of other things that go with wind code. I have seen many failed roofs that I have done repairs on, and most were stapled. Maybe a bad staple job, maybe not. Get a lot of bad nail jobs too. James DuHamel
*> You never find it that easy with nails.You mean with properly applied nails. The last tear off I did had a large section whereb allof the nails were put in above the seal, missing the shingle below. I think I could've pulled up all three squares in one piece if I'd a been tall enough!Rich Beckman
*Nails. Staples hold in the sheathing just fine, but the crown of the staple cuts through the shingle too easily if it's not driven perfectly.
*Actually, I would MUCH rather tear-off a nailed roof than a stapled roof.---Reason?----with a nailed roof my tear-off tool will pull out the nails at the same time as the shingles.With a stapled roof,the shingles come up fast( as mentioned elsewhere),but not the staples.When you hook a staple with your "shingle eater" one leg will come out of the deck leaving the second leg firmly stuck in the wood.Now you have a 2 inch wire standing up that you can neither pound flat,nor grab with the eater the way a nail could be.Ultimately I find myself crawling over the whole freaking deck with a pair of channel locks pulling out mutilated staples one at a time.Very slow.A nail tear-off takes a little more energy,but is much faster for me.Since time is money.....
*Stephen,i When you hook a staple with your "shingle eater" one leg will come out of the deck leaving the second leg firmly stuck in the wood.Now you have a 2 inch wire standing up that you can neither pound flat,nor grab with the eater the way a nail could be.Ultimately I find myself crawling over the whole freaking deck with a pair of channel locks pulling out mutilated staples one at a time.Very slow. Thanks. Man, I thought I was the only one that went through that! Glad to know I am not.James DuHamel
*If you wish to use Certainteed shingles, and you wish the warranty to be in effect, for whatever that may be worth, you must use nails. The Certainteed warranty requires installation according to their instructions, and their instructions specify nails. I haven't looked at other manufacturers' requirements, but I'd be surprised if they were different.
*Dear Steve,i you must use nails.That is just not true. See my post above. CertainTeed imposes a number of restrictions on the use of staples, but they are still acceptable within those limits.You can order their Shingle Applicator's Manual online. It is a very good resource. I'm told it is also available in a video tape version, which does not speak well for the perception of roofers' literacy. Pass the harder test and they send you a nice sweat shirt.Your certified Wizard, Fred
*Jeff said exactly what my experience has shown. I don't like staples.
*FredL,Not disputing your referenced book, but the Certainteed warranty starts like this: "Provided shingles have been installed in strict accordance with CertainTeed’s current written installation instructions, CertainTeed warrants..." The written installation instructions on both the shingle package and at Certainteed's Web site then specify nails with no mention of nor allowance for staples. I believe that Certainteed would regard any warranty claim in this manner.
*Dear Steve,That would depend on a number of factors including the particular type of CertainTeed shingle.For example, staples are never allowed on Hatteras. They are acceptable under limited conditions on Woodscape. Furthermore, officials have represented to me that they would not abuse fastening issues if unconnected defects were claimed. For example, CertainTeed would honor any shingle warrantee for a splitting defect even if when the fastening was clearly defective. If that same installation blows off, the roofer eats it. The company earned my respect for this very reasonable position.Throwing the book at you, Fred
*Mike, Thanks for explaining the 12 nails. I read this: I want the weight of any mansard shingle hanging on 12 nails,not 4. I realize now Steve meant that the shingles were being high-nailed too, so they wouldn't have eight nails in each one, as opposed to 12.Looks like i was overcompensating nailing the shakes with 8d instead of 4d. We have such a dry climate, i expect (knock on wood) the 1" staples will hold here.
*I'm still wondering about the perforation that the nail makes just above the slot...are six nails used in higher stress situations bec the shingle would otherwise rip up the slot and continue along the nail perforation? What i suppose i'm asking is, what happens in wind when a four-nailed one tears away; where does it fail first?
*most blow offs that we see are waves..the tab releases from the glue line and waves up and down until it tears horizontally.. with occasional higher rips...but the nailed portion USUALLY stays in place... AND..if there is a 15lb. felt under, the roof may not even leak..a failure of the fastener will result in whole shingles blowing off...if you are nailing thru a plywood sheathed deck and the roofing nail penetrates the sheathing, this will just not happen under most severe wind conditions... 90 MPH is more than severe... and 110 MPH is a strong hurricane blowing right over your houseif you are nailing to an old board roof with big gaps and a lot of "air" nails...you can get groups of shingles blowing off once the wind starts peeling...so... first failure.. glue.. second failure deck... third failure .. fasteners...but the staples screw up the mix and will allow a shingle to rip off whole where a nail might not...
*Never had a friggin failure. So do as you like. And all manufacturers that I use allow staples on most of the shingle line. Nails are fine. Nails cost way more. I own staple guns and they are paid for. And they are retardely easy to use.near the stream,ajCry babies.
*only had one failure... no blow offs... but the shingles were all waving in the wind.. mfr. paid us $50 a sq. to glue each tab with roof cement... however... on windy days you can drive around and see the shingles on OTHER CONTRACTORS roofs waving and blowing down the street... and we get hired to do repairs.. so i have observed quite a few blowoffs and stress cracks, and waves, and rip-offs..and bad flashings... the funny ones are when the aluminum dripedge is waving around..... whoops..... musta gotta lotta air nails on that one.....
*Speaking of drip edge: i had some metal bent for an integral drip edge/fascia. I designed it to the right pitch with a 4" leg up the roof because i had boards and wanted not to be air-nailing near the edge; also, a little drip deflector on the ell where it turned back toward the soffit. It seemed ridiculously cheap to get all that convenience in one fell swoop for $250 for ~200'. The material is called "Color-Lok"--holds paint like magic.