shoe mold under, or next to, baseboard?
JFink
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
We’ve all seen it done both ways – baseboard on top of the shoe molding, or shoe molding after the baseboard (as below) I like the look of the picture below better, but is there much of an argument for doing it the other way? short of – “the floor guys put in the shoe mold, the trim carpenter put in teh baseboard?
I’m still not sure which way is the “right” one. Any thoughts?
Justin Fink – FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Replies
How can the shoe go under the base?
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"We've all seen it done both ways - baseboard on top of the shoe molding, or shoe molding after the baseboard..."
Not me. I've never once seen baseboard on top of shoe.
Seem to me that would just be....................Wrong.
it's done for the extra coverage or for something different in profile...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
In my experience, shoe is used to cover the gap between an irregular floor and a straight baseboard. It's flexible, and you make it confess. I can't see that happening if you put the base in first. I think Justin is confused.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Nope, this time Justin ain't confused.
I've seen plenty of wood floors with matching shoe molding, then paint grade baseboard installed over (meaning, on top of, or above) the shoe. Maybe the answer is as simple as - "those houses with the shoe under the base were done poorly"?
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Maybe, but I could see it working with a rabbeted shoe, as another poster metioned. The hard way, but working. I'm looking forward to the photo. See, I'm imagining a standard 1/2 in. by 11/16 in. shoe under a 3 1/2 in. base. It just seems weird, but it could be my lack of imagination.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
No, that's the thing - you are picturing it exactly as it is Andy! It's literally a piece of shoe mold installed against the wall, the a flat-bottomed piece of base place directly above it. It looks ridiculous.
The good news is that all of the answers I've gotten are - "that's just the wrong way to do it" - answers the question for me. It's just that after seeing it in more than a few houses, I started to wonder if I was missing some hidden purpose. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
...by the way, I'm impressed that you know the dimensions of common shoe molding off the top of your head. Then again, we all know you're not human.
Sidenote: did you hear about Lance running in the NYC marathon? "That was without a doubt the hardest physical thing I have ever done''
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/other/4312443.html
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Edited 11/6/2006 4:23 pm ET by JFink
what's wrong with knowing the dimensions of common shoe off the top of your head?
I could tell you the common dimensions of a lot of standard trim.
Maybe I'm not human either <G>
And installing the base on top of the shoe is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I know the dimensions of a two by four!
Forrest
current dimensions, or one from 100 years ago?
I know all of them!
Forrest - 220, 221, whatever it takes
"I know all of them!"And I know the rest.
Well, thanks for that, but many days it's like my head is an 80 gig hard drive clotted up with 81 gigs of stuff. The shoe dimension is a relic from three years working in a lumberyard.
I did read the piece on Lance. Guess he wasn't using the right drugs. <G> What really impressed me was that although he did the marathon in under 3 hours, the winners did it in about 2. How amazing is that? Would you expect anyone to be a third faster in an endurance event than Lance?Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
--- How amazing is that? Would you expect anyone to be a third faster in an endurance event than Lance? ---At least that. Endurance training, like strength training, is specific for the muscles trained. And the bones and joints don't take anywhere near the beating in cycling that they do in running.Rebeccah
All true. I guess one thing it points up is that the fitness isn't all aerobic. Lance's ability to process oxygen has to be one of the best on the planet, so that wouldn't have been the problem.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
But put both of them on bikes,.....How did this go from a shoe molding question to the Marathon?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Justin's fault.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Having done both (very poorly I might add) the pacing issue of running is much tougher than cycling. And Lance is all about cadence.
Good point about cadence. I doubt Lance was turning 100 RPMs running the marathon.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Shoe molding is typicaly a punchout item in new construction. Post paint. I have worked in pre revolution homes and new. The sketch of base over shoe looks like a dust catch to me.
Shoe molding should be hardwood so vacuum cleaners and SHOES do not ding the walls.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Just look at the people who run fast marathons - thiiin and with looong legs. Lance's power-to-weight ratio is not high enough for competitive marathons. He could take up iron man though - if he can swim, that is.BruceT
Lance was a pretty good triathelete when he was a teenager.
with matching shoe molding, then paint grade baseboard installed over
Uhm, help me with the geometry here, would installed-by-flooring-guys shoe be "flat" rather than "up"?
I'm trying to picture how the square bottom edge of the base would "sit" on the shoe, unless we are talking a different profile than the 5/8 x 11/16 "quarter round" that comes to mind when I hear "shoe."
Now, if the flooring guy puts in, say a 3/4 x 1 with a roundover on one edge, the short dimesion up, then I can see where painted base would sit on it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Or somebody layered sheetrock over old plasterlath(lathe)roar above the old base and just slapped a new higher baseboard over the old.
be a quickie cheap remodeler
above the old base and just slapped a new higher baseboard over the old
Now, I cannot imagine that you'd suggest that sort of slapdash could occur in our biz <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
granted about his confusion...
found the shoe installed first and base on top of that... put it back the way I found it.. the shoe was pinned to the bottom edge of the base...
circa early 1900's home.. stained at that..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It's flexible, and you make it confess.
Confess? Never seen the word used in that way.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It's flexible, and you make it confess.
Confess? Never seen the word used in that way.
It's like beating the hell out of a suspect in order to extract a "confession". Whether the base shoe is guilty or not is up to Andy to determine. :)
haha, I was wondering if this might be the answer once I hit the post button. I swear it's done that way in half of the houses I've been going to lately. In fact, I'm going to one tonight - I will snap a photo and post it later so you guys can see what I'm talking about.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Justin,
Do you think you're seeing the difference in the color of the shoemold? Some homeowners like to stain the shoemold the wood color, and some people like to paint the shoemold the trim color (like the base). I have seen that both ways. Personally, I like the shoemold the same as the trim. This is just my personal preference, though.
I don't have a photo handy, but the baseboards in my 1913 colonial sit on top of the base shoe - there's a tongue on the bottom edge of the baseboard that fits down into a groove on the top of the shoe. The tongue is flush with the front face of the baseboard (I guess that probably makes it a rabbet) so the shoe can follow the irregularities in the floor without showing any gaps.
Now, that makes sense.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
What the heck kind of neighborhood have you been hanging out in !!!!!!!
I think I've seen base with a rabbited shoe on top, but plain old shoe, first, with base on top of that...and you've seen it more than once....????
Is this a "you can do it, we can help" thing?
Come on Justin, wheres the pic of the shoe with the base on it, I'm having a tough time with the visual. I dont think in all my time I've seen it done that way, is this a New England thing?
I cant believe that anyone would do it and you say that you've seen several houses with it that way, I'm stumped!
Not taking anything away from Andy and his amazing talents but I'd guess anybody that has worked on older homes could tell you the size of base shoe.
Doug
I didn't have my camera with me last night when I went over, but I drew up a quick sketch to show you, near as I can tell from a quick glance, what it looks like...see below:
View Image
I should re-iterate that I'm not sticking up for this idea, just saw it enough times to wonder if I'm missing something...
The only thing I can think of is A.) the floor guys installed a matching shoe when the floor went in, then the trim guys put the standard paint-grade base over the top of that later, or B.) they wanted to be able to slide furniture closer to the wall?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
That sure is a hideous way to install baseboard and shoe!
I really can't come up with any logical explanation as to why someone would have installed it that way.
I suppose that the function of the shoe may still be intact. That is, if the floor moves sideways (due to seasonal swelling, etc.), the resulting relative movement between the face of the baseboard and the edge of the shoe would be difficult to notice. Also, any gaps between the top of the shoe and the bottom of the base would be difficult to see (since you'd just about have to lay down on the floor to see it).
Still, I'd agree with others in saying it's just the WRONG way to install shoe.
Edited 11/8/2006 3:05 am ET by Ragnar17
That sure is a hideous way to install baseboard and shoe!
I have to reiterate what Ragnar17 said!
Thats how I invisioned it before I saw the pic but I was hoping I was wrong, I see that I wasnt.
I dont see the logic in it but........
Thanks
Doug
There was this chart in Home Depot that showed the shoe going down first...Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Odd.
At least in the rocky mountain states if you see that someone screwed up.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
What are the chances that all the places you've seen this were done by one builder?
and he was drunk all the times he did that shoe mold detail?
Has anyone else ever seen this detail?zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I'm starting to think that's the case Zak. One builder doing it the wrong way, every time. I swear I saw it once several towns over though - I will be going there again to do some wainscot and will check to make sure.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
wow
A sketch?
Sorry Justin....with all due respect....unless I see an actual photograph....I aint buyin' it.
I've worked on a ton of old homes. Never once run into what you're describing.
I hope you brought your camera tonight!
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
If it really looks like that, then I have to agree that it is just plain wrong. Your option A is the most plausible explanation, but it looks terrible, so who was the hack who followed the flooring guy and didn't take a few minutes to pry off the shoe before running his base?I want to see the photo so we can be sure you didn't make this up. ;-)Bill
Justin,
your sketch is incorrect, the shoe profile is more of an ogee shape, It's called a Ct.(Connecticut) shoe, see Garden State Moldings cataloge for an example.
Geoff
<< your sketch is incorrect, the shoe profile is more of an ogee shape >>
Yeah, I know...it's only a sketch.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Justin,
I wasn't really criticizing, it's really a fine sketch! :) My point was, your right , that is in fact a practiced method of installing base/shoe. The fact that a molding company actually makes the profile with the state name on it indicates to me it's probably a regional style.
Geoff
>> It's called a Ct.(Connecticut) shoe, see Garden State Moldings cataloge for an example. <<
Got a web link? I did a Google didn't find Garden State Moldings. How about this?
And to think I was heavily criticized for installing stained shoe molding....
Now I've heard of everything.... well almost... Sorry, I'll have to vote with the guys who said it would just look wrong to have base on top of shoe. Weather anyone likes it or not, the basic purpose of standard moldings is to cover gaps. That method would more than likely create gaps.
BTW - around here, the flooring guys don't install the shoe.
Thanks for the link. I checked it out and saw the base shoe identified as CTSHOE (5/8x1). However, there's really nothing to suggest that this shoe couldn't (or shouldn't) be installed in the conventional manner.
The ONLY thing that's a bit fishy is that a couple of the "combination bases" (BB514N for example) are rabbeted. So one could imagine that the rabbeted base could sit atop the CTSHOE.
However, it also occured to me that the rabbeted base is intended for easier scribing (like "ears" on wide stiles when installing modular cabinets that butt against a wall).
Anyway, I'm still not convinced that one is supposed to install the CTSHOE under a baseboard. Maybe some amateurs got confused with the rabbet and thought that was the way to go (just a crazy theory on my part).
Baseboard down when trimming the house. Shoemold down after flooring. Shoemold after helps to cover the gap between flooring and base. I'm not aware of a good reason to do it otherwise. If someone is, please let me know.
I've never heard of the idea let alone seen any pictures of this hideous way of practice.What happens when the floor (hardwood) needs to be sanded and refinished, do you retrim the base and shoe aswell.Tryand pass that bill on to the customer.Thats just wrong.
That's a great point, hadn't considered the troubles of re-sanding.
In any case, I apologize for not getting a picture up here. I can't, for the life of me, find the connecting cord that syncs my camera with my computer. I did, however, get down on hands and knees yesterday and take a really close look. As far as I can tell, it's the same way I sketched it out - clear as day.
But I will get a picture asap so we can all scratch our heads in unison.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
So did you leave it as was or cover it with a higher profile shoe?
Shoe goes next to the baseboard acording to the Architectural Graphics Standards, 10th Edition by The American Institute of Architects :-)
Trevor
See Image
I got the third edition of that book (1930s) at a garage sale years ago. Isn't it great?
Matt & Ragnar17,
I ran into this style after moving to Ct.(Hartford area), I've never run into it elsewhere( I've worked in Ca., Ma., N.H., and Me.) but it seems to be quite common around this area.
As to the re-finishing question, my experience has been that most guys remove the base and shoe and re-install only the base or replace only the base and leave out the shoe, for ease of installation I assume. Take into consideration that a majority of the homes here were built in the '60's and '70's and for whatever reason this is a common style. The rabbeted base is the base I have seen used in combo w/ the Ctshoe. Just a regional tweek I guess!!
Geoff
P.S. I don't care for the look either! I favor the more traditional look such as shown in the Graphics Standards book
Geoff,
Thanks for the info. Since you and a few others have seen this multiple times, I'll accept the explanation of regional style.
I guess I'm just lucky it's not the style where I live. ;)
I found this thread a little late - but..
I work around Ct and I've seen and done base the way you suggest with both profile shoe. usually you will see it in high end homes.
IMO it looks much better than the conventional base and shoe application. I dont care for shoe moldings to begin with, would rather scribe the base
It gives the base more of a custom look. I know its got to be a regional thing, never saw it anyplace else and you'll never convince a lot of guys around here (BT) to try it
...and that's why yer called Maverick? :o)oh beloved garlic live forever