Shortening a 1920’s Carriage Door w mortise and tenen construction
Softball_Junky
| Posted in General Discussion on
I need to shorten two 100 year old carriage doors to fit the rough opening in my home. They are mortise and tenen contruction. How do I take them a part and recontruct them? What if any fastners do I use? I dont want to ruin them. Also I need to replace one of the hinges that are broken. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Replies
what size are the slabs now, and what do you need them to be?
the stiles run the height of the doors on both sides, these need to be separated from the rails (top and bottom and bottom of glass pieces) to be able to make cuts to the (more than likely) tongue and groove boards in the bottom section. you will need to re cut tenons on whatever side you trim to fit back in the rail.
Separation
I have to cut them down to 7 feet. How do I separate the parts?
what size are they currently?
size
The doors are 94 to by 48 inches
So you need to shorten them by 10"?
If you only need to shorten an inch or three you'd be better off just trimming the bottom and maybe a bit on the top, rather than taking it apart and resizing everything.
Otherwise you need to disassemble the doors at the joints. If you're lucky you can pull some nails and the bottom stile will drop out. Or even luckier if you need to shorten by more than the height of the bottom stile, so you can saw off the bottom and get the parts apart more readily.
Typically the stiles and rails are mortised to accept the panel, and the bottom stile has tenons that fit into the mortises of the rails. It may be that the stiles have long tenons that go all the way through the rails, or maybe only tenons to fit in the mortises for the panel -- one would have to look closely.
The crossbuck is a question mark -- I don't know how that's attached, or how to best shorten it to match the new size.
If you are going to shorten these more than a couple inches, then I believe the angle of thecross buck will change in order to keep decent proportions. That's alot of re-work. And I hate to say it, but IMO the condition of these doors do not warrant the amount of time and re-work necesssary for a substantial re-sizing. It would be a labor of love for sentimental reasons, not economy of effort. If you do embark on that route, you might want to use the Festool Domino XL in order to make loose mortise & tenon joinery.
Another possible option: use these doors "as is" with surface mounted sliding door hardware??
If you are not a competent woodworker, then I don't think you can do it. It will be a tough job for anyone.
In any case, modifying these doors will change their appearance more than a little.
another thing..
I don't know how demanding the climate is where you're located but weatherizing these doors will be a challenge even after getting them sized.
Looks like you might have infiltration isssues issues besides just the door perimeters and double doors are always tough anyway. l
disasembly
I still need to know how to take this door apart. I am an accomplished carpenter so no task is daunting, However, I would like to avoid any unnecessary mistakes.
If you have reasonable capentry skills you should be able to see how the door comes apart. You should be able to just saw off the bottom ends of the rails, then split the cutoff pieces, so you don't have to work so hard at pulling it apart.
But if the bottom stile has long tenons into the rails you'll need to pull off at least one rail (by removing any fasteners in the other stiles and working the other tenons loose), or maybe saw off one tenon and use pegs when you reassemble.
We're not there to look at the thing and see the details of the joints, so we can't give you any more details than that.
The first unneccessary mistake
is trying to cut these salvaged doors down by 10". An accomplished carpenter would realize that.
I suggest you put your carpentry skills to better use and make new ones that fit your opening. YOu'll save yourself alot of time and it will look better. The best thing these doors can do for you on this job is be used a guide for appropriate scale for shorter units.
Carriage doors repair
I hve done several antique doors in my shop. Most are mortise and tenon with hide glue and nails. Mark where you want to have the finish length. If you cannot get apart the joints with a hammer or clamps, you will have to use a mulit-tool. Cut the joints below the windows all the way thru, then reassemble with loose tenons and yellow glue or gorilla glue. Make sure everything is square. You will have to figure out how the diagonals are attached and take them off to re-fit them. Taking 10" off these doors will make them look completely different.
Wally
Your best hope is to take the entire 10" from the top. Modifying the diagonal area will mean changing the angles. That won't be easy. Taking the top apart is actually doable. It will mean that you need to modify the windows. Perhaps going to a single row of taller lites.
I agree with sap, this will be the simplest way to make your adjustments without having to completly dismantel the door. making is a clear view (no lites) will be your simplest solution.
Architectural alert-
A single row of taller lites will make the doors appear as jail cell doors.
A single full view lite will pull this door out of its historical context so fast it would make any architect's head spin.
If you are committed to rebuilding these doors, then cutting out the top rail, then I'd have to agree that removing the top rail and all the glazing muntins is your most practical approach. This way you can rabbet out the stiles with a domino xl in place and insert a new rail with matching tenons from the top. YOu can also rabbet out around the existing window frame and insert a seperate 8 lite panel (secured with stops from inside) with insulated glass panels. The glass panels will be stunted and won't have the same nice proportions as original, but it's probably the best compromise.
right, thats what he as going for...maintaining the historical context, not just cutting them down to fit an existing hole.
How about both?
Could be trying to achieve both goals. However, i can understand where the concept of multi-tasking would be lost on someone such as yourself.