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We recently finished re-siding and painting a house with hardiplank siding and trim. When I went to pick up a check they showed me a window in the master bedroom that had the ends of two nails poking through the sheetrock returns. It looks like two nails form the 1×4 hardie trim deflected on something and poked through. I proposed we patch the holes and paint the inside of the sheetrock return. They are insisting that I paint the entire bedroom. What do ya’ll think is reasonable?
Eric
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Replies
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Well, sounds like they are afraid your idea of touch-up will look like.....well......a touch-up.
Often, if the paint is more than a couple of months old, a touch-up won't pass. So, if it were mine, I'd offer to let my very best painter touch-it-up and if it obviously, or not so obviously, looks like a touch-up, honor their request to repaint. The same day, with the same, very best painter.
Truth be told, I'd just bite it and repaint.
*Thanks Mark, I can certainly understand not wanting it to look like a touch up but with the location I don't think it is justified. If I wasn't clear, there are no jambs or casing, just a sheetrock return that butts into the sash. If I paint the inside of the return all the way around I don't see how it would be noticable. It's even hidden by blinds and curtains! It's a big room that's in rough shape - My painter will do it for $650 and I'll cave if I have to. Maybe my question should be how to I deal with the homeowner?Eric
*e...what % does the $650 represent ?is it your impression that they are trying to get something for nothing ?what is the condition of the rest of the house? did they hire you because you were going to fulfill their dreams ? or because you had the best price ?i'm here and you're there.. if you paint the bedroom are you going to get good referrals out of them ? or are they going to tell their brother -in-law how they handled the contractor?you should do the reasonable thing immediately... but what is their idea of reaonable ? and yours ?
*Considering what you have; inside the returns, blinds, condition of room, ect.........Are they customers that, as Mike pointed out, price shoppers or referals that will refer? If they are price shoppers........ Touch it up. Offer to discount the price for the rest of the room if they desire........
*Eric, now you know why I quit remodeling a few years back!I'd repaint the interior of the jambs using a computer generated color match.I'd offer to repaint the entire room at full price.I'd be ready to call my legal insurance lawyer to collect my final payment. Then I'd retire from the remodeling business and never deal with that mentality again!blue
*Better make sure the painter doesn't spill any on the carpets. Joe H
*"Sure, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, I really apologize for what happened and will be more than happy to have the room repainted." Done - and you walk away with a smile on your face. Why? Because you have just done something that no other contractor does, and by doing the above have just completed a "marketing" and "PR" coup over your competitors, and it hasn't cost you a DIME! No guts twisted from being in the position of having to deal with a sleazy client. No sleep lost. No bad mouthing of you by this client. The entire situation ends up being a positive one for you and the client - and again, it hasn’t cost you a DIME! As the constitution says: We have certain unalienable rights. Businesses do too. Here’s a news flash for you: YOU OWN A BUSINESS! RUN IT LIKE ONE. I can’t seem to get that across to most people with whom I come across. You keep a spare tire don’t you for the flat that will eventually happen? You keep band aids in the medicine cabinet don't you for the eventual cuts and scrapes? Most carpenters I know keep an extra circular saw for the obvious reason. #1. You should have a “Bad Debt” reserve. It should be about 1.5%. It’s purpose is self explanatory, and this situation is typical. #4. You should have a “Guarantee” reserve. It should be about 1% to !.5% Who do you think pays for the “guarantee” word done on our cars, trucks, TVs, major appliances, etc.? We do. A percentage, or fraction there of, is included in the manufacture/distributor/retailers cost, and is passed on to every single buyer. Ditto for Bad Debt. It to is an overhead line item. Ditto for theft, regardless if it’s from the public or employees - another overhead item. The reason I stated YOU OWN A BUSINESS! RUN IT LIKE ONE. in capitals, is because if you run your business as it should be run, you would already have - ready?: Addressed the normal expenses of every business. Every single one of them, including the sleaze of our culture. So, you remove an appropriate dollar amount from the “Bad Debt” reserve, transfer it into your operating account, and BINGO! - you are now a hero to this unscrupulous client. And they in turn brag to every one they know what a great guy you are, while to them selves saying: “Boy. Did we screw him or what?” This is the type of client that we all know we will be so unfortunate to have to deal with every so many months. They will have screwed you one way or another, and for one dollar amount or another - anyway. Be ready for them when they show their evil side. And it doesn’t cost you a DIME! Now, start running your business like a BUSINESS.
*Sonny, you are right, right, RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT! I do the same thing quite often when I'm framing. I just never figured that out in the remodeling business. Now you know why I failed at it. I still hate it.Yeppers boys, set up that 2% reserve...and don't pay taxes on it!blue
*CGR course on this stuff was phenomenal. Now if I could just remember what it said!! :)OK... the normal thing to do is to either cave or fight. Neither are marvelous options, each have their repercussions. I hate caving cuz I feel like a wimp and I hate fighting becuz it ruins my supper. Instead look at it as a game. This particular game has a $650 pot involved. Play the game and see how much of the $650 you can get. Brainstorm, come up with things from the project that you have seen that the customer may be willing to negotiate for. Ask some open ended questions to perhaps get some ideas. Some examples; hang a light, replace a window (they supply the window), haul off some stuff that they cant haul off cuz they have no truck. Be creative.Then package your deal and present. "Mr and Mrs. Sumpin4nuttin if you will accept a repair of the window I will haul off your old picnic table and hang a light for you." Money out of pocket? About $30! If they reject that offer package another one. Keep going ... you win if they accept anything that costs less than $650. You can smile because you have more money in your pocket than if you had fought or caved.BTW in this stragegy there is no room for judging motives which tends to get us into trouble anyway.Treat it like a game and have fun with it (as best you can)
*Peter, the game thing sounds fun but i think Sonny's suggestion is just so much more professional. Put yourself in the homeowner's shoes. If she truly thinks that the colors won't match, then she will be unhappy no matter how much backyard equipment you haul off. People don't like to be put on the spot negotiating. Most don't want to ask for the window to be repaired either. Their is a mistake made by the contractor. The homeowner wants something that is reasonable. Doing it with a smile will reap you rewards. Budget for your reward!blue
*Thanks for the replies! The whole job was about $7,000.00 and I'm the only person that bid on the job as far as I know. Pete is right about the cave or fight thing. I have the money to cover stuff like this as Sonny suggests but that doesn't mean you should just throw it out as soon as a problem arises. Thats like making an insurance claim on a $100 accident.I don't think they would be much in the way of referals but I am going to repaint the room next week to smooth things over. I'm glad they're not all like that!!Eric
*That's right, blue. I forgot; reserves are also not taxible. Just roll it over into the next year, and when either reserve get larger than needed, just transfer that part into the operating checkbook and take that part of it as a "distribution", again, saving on taxes.Like you blue, I learned/figured out these things way too far into my life. Gotta get these newbies and those still in their 30s to start operating legitimate "businesses." That, and salesmanship are the key to happiness and success - regardless of what standard is used to describe "success."Remodeling can be, and should be, fun, but only if we address each of these business "eventualities" and COA's.
*When I feel the owner has a legitimate claim and a reasonable request in situations like this then I think we should do what the customer asks. However, if I determine that the request is either silly or outrageous then it is time to negotiate. This particular request sounds pretty silly to me.Just have an aversion to making it a habit to hand over money to customers simply because they ask for it.I have had some customers (SOMETIMES identifiable by their ethnic origin..am I PC or what?) habitually denigrate my jobs just to look for a price break. Shall I cave to them?BTW I should give credit to the CGR syllabus on negotiations it comes from the Harvard Negotiation project.
*Eric, as I pondered the reply that I gave you and then read Sonny's, I became aware of some mitigating circumstances. When I used to remodel, I rarely charged enough. I was always cash poor and struggling with profitability. I simply didn't know enough about my market to make money in it. Thus, my first reply reflected that frustration with customers that wanted more for their money. I couldn't give more for the money I was receiving because I was already selling on price and not getting enough of it. I only occasionally got good prices in remodeling. Sonny does a better job at getting his price consistently. Consequently, he automatically can afford to do the right thing. This natural reaction to a minor problem does wonders for referrals. If you are charging $90 per hour, that equals approx $180,000 per year. I'm sure you can find $600 in the budget to provide ecxcellent service. That small sum is a drop in the budget-bucket. If you are budgeting 10% of your gross income for marketing, then there is an $18000 available for adveritising. Take the $600 out of the advertising, because this lady will be quite proud that she got the outside done and also got her bedroom redone at the same time. Just ask her if she intends to change colors and drapes and enthusiatically help her move to a decision on colors!Now that I think of it, I do remember doing the same thing in my later years as a remodler.I still hate remodeling though...blue
*Peter, are you claiming that a certain ethnic group routinely sticks it to you?Do you think that this is a frivolous claim? Some people are truly wacky about an event like this. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest the simple solution if I was the homeowner, but some homeowners are just nutty about exactness of colors. I guess you'd have to be there, but I still think Sonny's way will reap bigger rewards.blue
*Nope... didnt say they stick it to me...they ATTEMPT to stick it to me. It's their nature. Ooooh boy gonna get labeled now. Oh well it's a dull night nothing on the tube might as well get tarred and feathered for making an honest observation. This ethnic group LOVES TO NEGOTIATE ok? Sheesh.BTW Blue, is it my fertile imagination or do you really not like remodeling.
*Kinda agree with Sonny, but not exactly. Would have said to customer, let me do the repair and lets take a look at it. If it looks like a repair, then I will repaint the whole room. If no one can tell, then we've remedied the problem. I will fix any damage I cause to your satisfaction.If you do a decent repair, most people will say afterwards, You know, it looks fine and will be happy with your effort and the fact that you gave them the choice. Unless it looks lousy, the only reason the people will demand that you paint the rest of the room is to get the freebie.SHG
*Whoah,Lets back up a minute. How in the heck dit a trim nail get through the drywall? Maybe they build houses different where you come from.I have a standard exclusions clause in my contract that states, "Correction or repair to any rotten, fragile or concealed components of the existing structure which could be damaged in the ordinary course of construction, or which requires repair to complete the scope of work." I think I would first point that clause out to them. I think I will incorporate another sentence in there that states something to the effect of "under no circumstances will repairs extend beyond the immediate area. See matching existing conditions."I don't know what I would do in your exact situation, but I'd like to make a couple of points.If someone screwed up, I would definately make them happy. That doesn't mean painting the whole room in my book. As contractors, we take some risks in contracting to do a job. I personally try to limit them. If I had to cover every conceivable risk, I would never get enough money to do the job. I like to write a tight contract and go over it very thoroughly at signing. I mention several examples similar to this type of situation. Shit happens. Nothing will ever be perfect to every persons satisfaction.A recent example. Had a rolloff truck lose a couple quarts of hydraulic fluid on the way down a very steep driveway on a remodel. There are several reasons why this didn't blow up in my face I think. First I noted the condition of the driveway to the homeowner (18 yrs old) and explained the types of machinery, etc that woul be coming in contact with it. Second, I have a clause in my contract that covers the topic of damage to all hardscape. Third, when the oil was spilled, I was on the horn and had it professionally cleaned within hours. It did leave a stain. I'm hardly going to resurface their driveway just to keep my good name. It sounds like they are being unreasonable, but I could be wrong. My truck was recently vandalized on the rear quarter panel. Do you think the insurance company is going to paint the whole thing? Would I like them to? Yes. Do I expect them to? No.I think the key is education, strong contract, strong backbone. If you bid for the job price is and issue. I you bill at the end of the job, tack the repaint onto you final bill and do it with a smile.
*Tommy, 1st of all, there is a difference between resurfing a driveway and painting a large room.2nd, any business owners that do "not" cover their rear ends in ways that are "typical" of his industry are nuts, once they've learned about them.3rd, it has already been proven by many gurus and pros in our industry that our industry is not exactly plentiful with people who have even basic "business" skills as far as management - and the financial aspect (including apropriate reserves) is part of management.3rd, part of that "management" aspect does, or at least should, include clauses such as those you posted - which are excellent? Hell, how many guys work WITHOUT a contract and then scream like crazy when "situations" occur?As to the quarter panel - remember it's your truck and you're trying to get "their" money from "them." In our situation, typically, "they" have "our" money and typically, they will hold back $10,000 of it until we correct a $500 mistake. Add to that the fact that most contractors have zip for "working capital." WC? What's that? Little different situation, I'd say.Finally, and as you stated, all contractors take risks. Agreed. But that's why we not only should limit them, again, as you stated, but to also cover our rear ends with the reserves I mentioned. Reserves cover our rear ends for those situations that we cannot anitpate - INDIVUALLY. The reserves are for GENERAL use for their specific use as their respective name denotes. Of course I don't know if the next time will be a Smith, a Jones or a Johnson. A kitchen or a bath remodel, or a deck or just a paint job or extensive repair. And that's exactly the purpose for the reserve. And lets face it, if I can't sell a job at 3% higher to cover those reserves, I've got bigger problems compared than a lousy 3% reserve.
*That's funny Peter!Actually, when the people are nice and the project is going smooth, I don't mind it.Uhh, on second thought...Yes, I hate it!blue
*Shg, on the surface, that sounds fair.I still agree with Sonny however. Emotionally, Sonny is meeting and exceeding the expectations of the client. That is why he gets a little bit more money than most. This client will become a walking billboard expounding on how well Sonny has treated her. When she's in here tennis club and the other ladies start bitching about their contractors, this lady will claim bragging rights. Sonny will definitly get some great referrals with his approach. Shg, your approach is close, but it still puts emotional pressure on the client to cave in to your demands, rather than vice versa.Just up your hourly rate by $4 to cover these incidentals.blue
*I am not sure exactly what this post is about, but I agree with Sonny that you should budget for soft costs on every job. The following are just a few items from my chart of accounts, I budget an amount for each of these items on every house I build: 143-6405 (PUNCH) Punchout Material 143-6406 (PUNCH) Punchout Labor 143-6407 (PUNCH) Drywall Patch & Touch Up 143-6408 (PUNCH) Paint Touch Up 143-6409 (PUNCH) Reglazing 143-6410 (PUNCH) Re-Key Locks 143-6416 (WARR) RWC Warranty Inspection 143-6417 (WARR) RWC Annual Renewal Fee 143-6418 (WARR) ACES Warranty Fee 143-6419 (WARR) Warranty Mat-First 6 months 143-6420 (WARR) Warranty Labor-First 6 months 144-9035 (PROF) Consulting Service-Job Related 144-9036 (PROF) Legal Services-Job Related 144-9037 (PROF) Estimating Service 144-9049 (PROF) HBA Membership 144-9050 (PROF) Dues, Subscriptions, Books 144-9051 (PROF) Training, Seminars, Education 144-9052 (PROF) Convention Expense 144-9053 (PROF) Computer Software Support 144-9090 (T&E) Entertainment Meals 144-9510 (RENT) Rent Field Equipment 144-9520 (FIELD) Repairs and Maintenance 144-9531 (FIELD) Cellular Phone Exp 144-9540 (FIELD) Taxes and Insurance 144-9550 (FIELD) Small Tools and Supplies 144-9560 (THEFT) Theft 144-9943 (INS) General Liability Ins 144-9944 (INS) Workman's Comp Ins 144-9945 (INS) Builder's Risk Insurance In addition, I budget for admin/overhead costs. To me, these costs are no different than lumber/concrete/roofing, etc.
*Hey blue,As someone who derives a majority of his income from remodeling, I respectfully disagree. Strongly. I don't want any customer going around bragging that I caved in to paint her whole room, because of a couple of nail holes. I think the bad news that he put nail holes in the wall will travel alot faster than the good news that he fixed it. But that's besides the point. What do you paint the whole room every time you move a picture? And Sonny, I agree with your point regarding contingency funding but, I don't think it would be enough. Say this was a 10k job. His hit would be like 10% and he hasn't even left the job yet. And who knows what else he caved into.And you're right that it is different than the truck analogy, but I think its best to structure your contracts so that they don't owe you more than 5 or ten percent at substantial completion. On the same 10k siding job, I would have gotten a materials draw, a progress payment, and maybe be owed 2500 or as little as a thousand where this guy is sitting. When the job is done, its in a lot of peoples nature to negotiate a smaller final payment. I think finishing with a small payment, helps to negate this.Which is another point I failed to make, per the original post "We recently finished re-siding and painting a house with hardiplank siding and trim. When I went to pick up a check they showed me a window in the master bedroom that had the ends of two nails poking through the sheetrock returns." That makes me suspicious.
*Tommy, that's another thing I've advocated is that the final payment should never be more than 5% of the contract amount, even less than 5% if it's say, a $150,000 project. Our contract covers that aspect also. "Substantial Completion" leaves maybe 1% for those large projects. "Substantial Completion" means the client can use the room(s) for their intended purpose, yet stil might need what we call, "punch out work" item(s).Then when the above are done, "Declaration" of Completion" means I get that last 1%.Besides, lets be honest. How many times a year do we run into this? So why lose any sleep or get a all worked up about such a situation. If most guys/women here are like I used to be, it grinds on you every day and even while you're laying in bed. Who needs that aggavation?If they want to tell others I caved in, so be it. Meanwhile I'm not taking it out on my wife or kids or employees, and kicking the dog unfairly. Then I lose twice or three times, plus I'm still aggravated.I still win. Remember, it didn't cost me a dime!
*sonny.. i'm with you on the payment schedule.... i bind the contract with about 2% deposit... andthe final payment is for "substantial completion"... usually about 4%.. the payments in between are all pegged to landmarks that do not invite dispute....like "start"..or "roof on".. "windows and doors installed""ready for plaster"..definite items and enough of them to keep the cash flowing...i'm in the middle of the road on appeasment and standing firm... i know from many previous experiences that it is almost always better to negotiate and appease and move on.. leave the unscrupulous behind to wallow in their pettiness..and never let 'em see you sweat....the other thing you are alluding to..once you have made up your mind to appease.. do it as graciously as you can.. so you can get the benefit of your sacrifice...if you appease, but leave the taste of sour grapes behind, then it's lose - lose....gamesmanship was the old term ....
*Mike, a few years ago we changed our contract phases to read something like "$$$$ is due upon the beginning of X" phase, as you do.That eliminates the problem with phase payments starting with "$$$$ is due upon COMPLETION of ..........." where they want to hold back many thousands of dollars because a $100 part is on back order. "Your contract says "COMPLETION", and it will not be "complete" until the electircian comes back/the part comes in/ the plumber............Got fed up with that! About my ease at doing what they want that doesn't cost me a dime. I've had clients call me months later to do more work, and if their "sin" was just too bad, I had no problem is telling them: "Thank you for calling me to serve you again. However, based upon what happened the last time I worked for you, (and I remind them of the incident), I really don't think I can work with you again. You should really call someone you deserve and whose character has a better fit with yours." Then I let them think about that *deserve* and *character* and interpret it which ever way they want.OK. So it's a tactful way of saying: "STICK IT!" You don't deserve me. You deserve a slime ball like yourself!
*Sonny Says....."And they in turn brag to every one they know what a great guy you are, while to them selves saying: “Boy. Did we screw him or what?”Thomas says........When "sleazy" people win don't they brag up the story and recommend you to their sleazy friends who then become part of your client base? Can you say downward spiral? Sure I knew you could! Can you say virus? Sure you can!Try this move (repaint the whole room scam), as a client, at a car dealership (A Real Business, Sonny?) and see what you get. Surely Real Businesses have reserves for or expenses for bad debts and shoplifting, etc. But they don't let people rip them off (big time) and then write it off. If that was true their wouldn't be any lawyers or civil courts. Do Real Businesses have reserves for embezzlement? When the bookkeeper takes $250,000 to the casino do Real Businesses just make a ledger entry and congratulate themselves for being so wise? Thomas
*Tommy, it still comes down to this. With all of the aggravation inherrent in running our types of businesses, why even have to get all upset with these types and add that too to the every day things we contend with?And who really wants to get involved with lawyers, mitigation, arbitration, etc. The reserve solves that occasional situation.Simple, free, and done the day it occurs. Unless of course, one really likes a good scrap now and then. Personally, I got better things to do.However, being one to accept the "druthers" of each of us, whatever flicks your Bic, eh? You argue and/or negotiate an agreeable settlement if possible. I'll say: "Consider it Done!", put it behind me, go get a cup of coffee, and on to the next thing on my list.
*Back to the actual subject at hand... the free paint job.I see this a little different evidently. First of all, there just ain't enough info. Because of this, everything is just conjecture and speculation.Let's look at it in a different light. Suppose the bedroom walls were in pretty bad shape to start with. THEN what would you do, and how would you handle it? If they were in PERFECT shape?Personally, I would have looked at the holes, told the client how I was gonna handle the repairs, and then tell them if the paint on the repairs didn't match, I would just go ahead and repaint the whole bedroom on my dime. I would state very clearly that I would be painting it the same color, not a new one. Never let the client get involved with YOU fixing YOUR mistake. Just fix it, and do it professionally, wth professional results. When they see that you took care of a problem that you created, without them having to tell you to, or them having to get involved and harrass you to get it done, then they suddenly look at you and your company in a whole different light. THIS is where they start bragging on you.IF you paint the whole bedroom because they threw a fit, and refused payment until you did, they will not be bragging on you to their friends. They will be bragging on THEMSELVES for how they handled you. They will say something like "That contractor punched two holes in my bedroom wall when he installed my siding. I made that sucker repair the holes, AND paint my bedroom". They are, in essence, bragging on themselves in how they bested a pro. You, as the contractor, are still the bad guy. That is how you will be portrayed, and how the story will be perceived.Kinda like getting a GREAT deal on a new car. People tend to tell their friends how they got the best of the car salesman. Beat him at his own game kinda mentality. I never hear how great the salesman was, or how well the dealership treated them, just how they got the best of the salesman. They will usually brag on themselves BEFORE they brag on you.Take care of any problem created by you or your company BEFORE the client feels that they must get involved. Doing this is worth more in PR than anything else you could do. It literally separates the good businesses from the rest. Just a thought...James DuHamel
*"Personally, I would have looked at the holes, told the client how I was gonna handle the repairs, and then tell them if the paint on the repairs didn't match, I would just go ahead and repaint the whole bedroom on my dime."Exactly - and what I would have done, AND with an opology for what happened AND with friendly smile on my face.This is also an ethical problem. Just because they aren't ethical (and I'm assuming this is the case), doesn't mean I'm not, nor have to stoop to their level and argue about it. And as you said James, the same color too.Funny, and I think I mentioned this before; back in the early 80's I once asked a retired contractor why he though there were so many incompetent or just plain sleazy contractors around. He said because the public has run most of the good ones out of business. I've since learned that there's a certain amount of truth to that.
*Not that I think James' idea is wrong, but one additional thought: I've had guys who decide that they want to do me a favor and do something beyond what they are supposed to do. This unexpected and unrequested work then presents a problem, either because I wasn't happy with how it was done or they did something I didn't want done, though they thought they were doing me a favor.As to the paint job, since I do restoration, I start out stripping the paint and repairing before repainting. So, if they carp drives a nail through a wall (though how I too have yet to quite figure) and decides to "do the right thing" and paints it up, I now have an additional coat of paint to deal with. He's wasted his time and money, and he's made me more of a problem than I had with just the nails.Talk to the customer first. Don't assume that you know what the customer wants, because sometimes they might fool you. I've had similarly situations happen and it really sucks to have unnecessary work done that doesn't help anyone.Too many people here assume 2 things: First, that customers are more likley than not to want to cheat the contractor. Second, the contractor always knows better than the customer what the customer wants. Communicate guys. It won't kill you to talk to your customers.SHG
*As the original poster, I'm surprised at how much interest there has been. To clarify for the people that don't understand how this happened let me try to explain. The house is a cheap Pulty home. The windows are cheap aluminum with a nailing flanges. We rain 1x4 trim around each window. The sheetrock returns on the inside and meets the edge of the window where the nailing flange starts so a errant nail from a gun came through the sheetrock lining the window. Hopefully this makes since.Regarding how much money I still have out on the job - on the $7,200 job they owe me $1,200. On a small job like this I can't see letting them hold out only 4%. They gave me $3,000 to start, 3K when the siding was up and the 1,200 due when painted. How else would you stucture this?Thanks for the spirited discussion!Eric
*If the walls were in bad shape as was stated earlier. (I think so anyway) Why not offer the free service of painting the walls BUT you would charge for making the walls paintable. At that point make a point of charging the price you probably should be making all along to cover all the stuff discussed in many of these forums and see to what extent they want this repaired now.
*Eric, I would have gotten a 10% deposit, 60% at start of work, 20% at start of painting and 10% at completion.Not alot different from what you did but different strokes?
*Eric, I would have structured it like this.$300 at contract signing. Non refundable scheduling deposit.Materials deposit equal to materials plus upon delivery. Maybe $3k, or a little more.Another $3k or alittle more at siding completion.Balance at substantial completion, painted.About what you did.How much siding was this?
*SHG,I would never consider doing extra work as a favor without discussing it with the client. In this scenario, the client is side by side with me, and they know that I just screwed up. It would become my responsibility to make the situation right, without them having to MAKE me. As for repainting the whole bedroom to match, that would be entirely up to the client. I would just let them know that if this were the route that NEEDED to be taken, it would be on my dime, not theirs. They didn't screw up, I did. And you are absolutely right about most clients not being out to "get" the contractor. I have found very, very few that really and truly wanted something for nothing. Most of the problems I see in this field involve communication. There is too little of it, none at all, or very bad communication going on. What the client feels they should get, and what the contractor feels they should give sometimes does not fall on an even keel. By discussing the situation, and communicating with the client, problems seem to disappear, and everyone seems to come away happy. Sometimes, the client feels that the contractor is out to screw THEM. It is always a two way street in this business. Communication goes a LONG way to preventing problems in the first place.My original post was simply a hypothetical situation, based on GIVEN information. Each situation is different, but acting professionally, and taking responsibility for our actions and mistakes goes a long way to making clients happy, and repeats. Just a thought...James DuHamel
*james , that's very noble of you ... but 2 nail holes in a window surround doesn't add up to $650...what's the remedy ?the remedy is NOT repainting the room...fix it, fix it right...fix it fast... but let's not lose our heads...
*Wow, alot of differing opinions on the situation...?Mike
*>...fix it, fix it right...fix it fastMike, that's the dilema! Fix it right...to who's standards? Yours or the customers?Eric let his guys shoot the nails too close to the windows and screwed up. Now he has to satisfy the client. I'm going to safely guess that if you took this case before a judge, the contractor would lose.blue
*Blue and others, I think the contractor would lose but only to the tune of having to fix the damage and repaint that specific area. Kind of like a car getting a scratch or being keyed. You can't make anyone paint your whole car! Example: We shipped a brand new car back from Germany when we moved back. Hood got a nice 10" long scratch to the primer. Insurance company says they only pay to FIX that scratch. Wouldn't even pay to paint the whole hood! Period. They laughed when I mentioned taking legal action. I settled for having the scratch repaired. You would have the benefits of saying a computer optical scan paint would be used to match the existing color and that the patch would likley not be noticeable since its in the small area of the window return. True, you would lose this cutomer and it might not be worth your reputation for just $650 of a $7k + job, but if you wanted to be a hardnose you could fight it. I'd base my actions on how the client brought it up. If they were eager to show how I messed up and jumped at the chance to TELL me I had to repaint the whole room, I be a pain in their a**. If they casually showed me what happened and asked how I could fix it, I paint the room just to be a good guy. Then I'd come and gripe about how I had a bad day here to you guys. ;)Mike
*Mike,I agree. 2 nail holes does not add up to $650.00 The whole point is that I personally would repair the area (cause I caused the damage), and then, IF NEEDED, I would repaint the whole room to make a good match. I really don't envision having to repaint an entire room for a small repair. I like to think I am better at color matching than that. But then again, the whole situation was hypothetical because I only had the info given to go by. In real life, putting 2 nails through the drywall when installing siding is not a real common problem. I'd be more inclined to paint a whole wall before I'd paint an entire room, but the whole room could very easily manifest itself after you get started painting. The whole point is to take care of the problem, take care of it fast, and take care of it professionally. How well you do this can only be determined by you. Just a thought...James DuHamel
*Mike, the reason that the insurance company laughed at you for mentioning legal action was because they knew you i wouldn't follow through. It's not uncommon for adjusters to try to shortchange little guys like us. They know that benefits of the legal system are out of range of most of the American public.If you weren't satisfied after the "patch" was done, you could have made a case and probably won, if you used an attorney. Without one, you simply don't carry enough weight to get the repair done.Your hardnosed attitude toward the client might make you feel good, in the moment, but Sonny's professional approach will make you more money, in the long run.blue
*Blue, Maybe this is a good arguement for P** P*** L***? Yeah, Sonny's approach would be far more professioinal than mine but I've worked for too many customers who are pains in the a** so I'm jaded! ;) Mike
*MIchael, we've all worked for a lot of people who are/were a PITA. One day I finally decided to use my appoach. Then all of a sudden it didn't matter any more. I got paid either way - again - either way, and no grief. Do it! Otherwise, 1-2 heart attacks later you will. Better to start now and push that heart attack way into the future, like when your 80 and it comes from natural old age.
*Sonny has got the right approach. Just include it has overhead in every single job and then it doesn't matter. You get to always be the good guy and still get paid. I use to always ask for condiments when at the fastfood drive-thru even though I didn't eat them. I just wanted them because I paid for them :)
*Sean,With that attitude, you would make a good pita customer without even shopping at the middle eastern bread store.
*A few years ago I had to fix a leaking valley. The repair of the valley took 15 minutes. The repair of the ceiling and repainting the rooms took 10 hours spread out over 8 days. I found that the customers were gratified that I had shown up and fixed the problem with no questions asked. They were also surprised that the repair took so much time and effort on my part. There was no ethical question in this case; I obviously had to fix the damage. Nonetheless, the customers were more pleased by the repair than they were by the original work, even before the valley started to leak. Another chance to make a good impression.
*I don't get it Tom. :)
*Mike, this is one of the many areas that P** P*** L***L solves.I just talked to the poster lady today. Teenage step-son. Tickets, felony, divorce, car wreck, injury in wreck (stepson ran light), medical malpractice.This woman paid 12k for her stepson to plead guilty and serve time.She had an ovary removed. The same pains remained. A year later, a different doctor found that the ovary was NOT removed! The medical malpractice case seems like a slam dunk. But! Three lawyers have refused to take the case. They claim she won't win. The legal system does not work for middle America. It's out of control.blue
*I say repair the damage and paint the return. It isn't necessary to paint the whole room to clear this up as long as you match the paint.Rick