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Discussion Forum

Shower pan options?

davidmeiland | Posted in General Discussion on April 1, 2006 09:32am

We’re going to be putting a 36×48 shower in the shop, upstairs, in the spare bedroom area. It will only get occasional use. I want to go cheap and easy and use an acrylic or FG shower receptor. My wife hates those and wants something nicer. I looked into a Florestone terrazzo shower pan–expensive ($800 including shipping) and heavy (500 lbs). The other option I can think of is a fully tiled shower pan, which I can do in all of my free time using leftover energy and motivation.

What else is out there?

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Gene_Davis | Apr 01, 2006 10:06pm | #1

    Here ya go.  http://www.schluter.com/english/products/2002/sectionh/overview-h/section-h.html

    I believe one of the two sizes offered in their preform pan is your 36 x 48.  Edit:  Whoops!  I wuz wrong!  The two sizes are 32 x 60 and 48 x 48.  Either change your specs to one of their sizes or do a mud base.  But you can still do all the other Schluter stuff . . . the Kerdi drain, etc.

    These guys have almost 100 percent market share in my market, all of the tile setters using their stuff, from the lowest end to the ultra-highest.  CPVC liner sheet sales have plummeted.  CMU boardstock for shower walls?  Forget it, just rock them, but let's do the Kerdi membrane.

    It may be because Schluter, a German firm, chose to locate their US HQ and distribution center right up the road from us.  But maybe not.

    Over on the John Bridge forum, where it is all about tile and well attended by tilesetter pros, it's all about Schluter for showers.

    The Schluter site has a video you can watch showing a guy popping together a shower, from base on up to top.  Watch it, and get inspired!



    Edited 4/1/2006 3:09 pm ET by Gene_Davis

    1. davidmeiland | Apr 01, 2006 10:26pm | #2

      Gene, you know anything about the cost of Kerdi? I have two showers to estimate, both 36x48 with 8 foot walls. Simple three-sided stuff. I've done the mud bed route and would do it again, but might go with Kerdi instead. It would feel weird to rock the inside of a shower, I know that. Anyway, what's a shower's worth of Kerdi and parts cost?

      As far as my place goes, I was wondering if there are options other than what I mentioned. Don't want to tile it if I don't have to...

      1. User avater
        Gene_Davis | Apr 02, 2006 12:47am | #4

        Here is an indication of price, but I cannot recall how this online vendor's prices matches my cost.  http://www.tile-experts.com/products.asp?id=49

        You will need some Kerdi band for the joints at curb and walls-to-base, and for sure, you will want the Kerdi drain collection of parts.

        Did you watch the video?

        More importantly, do you have a source locally?  How about across the border?

        1. User avater
          Mongo | Apr 02, 2006 01:15am | #5

          David, I get Kerdi for about a buck a sqft. I did a large 5' by 8' walk-in shower. Kerdied the walls, floor and ceiling, plus I Kerdied a walk-out drying area just outside the shower. Used an entire roll and had about 6 sqft left over. Roll was about $330.The drain is about $60.I don't use Kerdi-Band, I use strips of Kerdi cut from the roll.With the drain you get several precut corner pieces. I don't use the preformed (thermally fused ones), I cut and fold my own corner squares from Kerdi, just like the cut ones they include with the drain. The drain also includes a nice installation CD, it's similar to the videos you can view on line but much longer and of a much better quality.I have to say, it's a nice system. There are a few tricks, but essentially it's like hanging wall paper.If you're not going to tile, there are probably other options out there that may be better for your situation.Best,Mongo

          1. davidmeiland | Apr 02, 2006 03:47am | #6

            I'm hoping not to tile our little shower, but I need to do these two others for someone else, so I'm very interested in what you're saying. It sounds like $400-450 ought to easily cover Kerdi stuff for a 3x4x8' tall shower. I haven't taken the time to locate a source yet but there is doubtless one somewhere in the Seattle area, maybe even closer.

            The video I downloaded from their site was 11MB and I had high hopes, but it was just some advertising fluff. It did say 'Kerdi shower installation video' or something like that, but it weren't...

          2. User avater
            Gene_Davis | Apr 02, 2006 04:59am | #7

            Play the flash video.  Their web wiz made a mistake and the wrong video is behind the 11MB .mpg download.

            The flash video shows what you want to see.

  2. User avater
    BillHartmann | Apr 01, 2006 10:55pm | #3

    Have you looked at solid surface. Don't have any idea of the price.

    And cultured marble, I know the walls are cultured marble, but don' tknow what the pan is.

  3. CAGIV | Apr 02, 2006 06:09am | #8

    Have you seen or used ONYX before?

    http://www.theonyxcollection.com

    I don't have my book in front of me so I can't tell you the exact price of the base and we usually only order them as a shower kit.  If memory serves a base should be around 3-400

    Team Logo

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Apr 02, 2006 04:48pm | #18

      Doing a little more research it does appear that the onyx is closer to SS.http://doityourself.com/baths/longlastingshowerwall.htm" Natural granite would be the longest lasting material you could put on the walls of a shower, but for the shower base, I doubt if anything lasts longer than Cultured Marble or Cultured Onyx.
      Since the filler on Cultured Marble is crushed limestone, it tends to dull and burn cutting tools a lot faster than Cultured Onyx, which uses Alumina Trihydrate as filler (the same stuff they use in Corian). Alumina Trihydrate is less dense and more resilient than limestone dust, so the Onyx wall panels are easier to cut and harder to crack during the installation process than the Marble ones.
      For Cultured Onyx, you can use a normal electric jigsaw with a metal cutting blade to cut notches around windows etc., and a regular hole saw for the head pipe and faucet handle holes. Fine trimming can be done with a course-tooth belt sander. These tools will work for Cultured Marble as well, but the teeth will get worn smooth much faster.
      If you do your installation with one hundred percent pure silicone adhesive as recommended by the manufacturers of these products, you can use plain sheetrock behind the panels because there is no chance they will ever leak. However, since many of the building codes are aimed at tile, you may not have the option of using plain sheetrock. The floor just needs to be level and flat. A screw head sticking up or a small stone trapped under one of these could cause a stress crack to develop in the future.For prep, all you need to do is dry-fit each piece first to make sure trimming is not needed to accommodate crooked walls. Most manufacturers will make the panels oversized at your request to give you room for trimming, or even make them crooked for you to match your walls.
      It typically takes about an hour to install three Cultured Onyx shower wall panels correctly. It may take a little longer to do the Cultured Marble panels because trimming and drilling goes slower. You need to handle them a little more carefully, but it still goes pretty fast.
      How long do they last?
      Some Cultured Onyx is guaranteed forever. That is a long time. Either material should last at least the rest of your life. Damaging either one requires severe abuse, like you might cause with a hammer or a bowling ball. Also, excessively hot water can cause "thermal shock" fractures in either material, although Cultured Marble is much more likely to be affected by this. However, the temperature required to cause this type of damage would kill or maim a person within minutes in a shower, and is more commonly seen in an old Cultured Marble sink where someone used straight hot water for shaving every day year after year. With the current trends toward safety in the home, having water temperatures set over 140 degrees is very uncommon. "Also it looks like the places that do cultured marble/onyx have access a number of interesting processes including spray on granite and marble over existing material, FLEXIABLE marble, flooring, and inlays.http://www.tiffanymarble.com/formulae.html

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Apr 02, 2006 05:00pm | #19

        More reseach indicate that the cultured onyx is still a hybred between the two.The is from Tiffiny Marble, a manufucture here in Lees Summit. Futura is a brand of SS material that they have."Q. What can Futura be cleaned with?
        A. Futura can be cleaned with almost any cleaner. Scotch Brite Pads¯ can be used to clean your Futura with, but use these sparingly, at most once or twice per month. It is good to clean your Futura with Scotch Brite Pads¯ or any other abrasive cleaner at least once a month to remove the top layer of the Futura and restore it's shine.Q. What can Marble, Onyx, and Granite be cleaned with?
        A. Marble, Onyx, and Granite will need to be cleaned with any non-abrasive material. These products will loose their finish if cleaned with an abrasive cleaner. Minor scratches can be buffed out, chips and larger scratches will require the repair kit which you can buy for $11 from us."

  4. BarbaraD | Apr 02, 2006 07:34am | #9

    Purchased the Schluter-Kerdi Shower Kit, after much internet research including Breaktime and John Bridge website.  Then after much internet searching for best price, ended up buying it through installertools.com for $309 plus about $15 shipping.  I got the 48" x 48", but looking at the product, it can be cut down to whatever shape you need.  So you should be able to do a 36 x 48 no problem.

     

    1. User avater
      Gene_Davis | Apr 02, 2006 03:15pm | #14

      That is not quite true, Barbara.  Let's not lead David astray here.

      The foam panforms they sell are molded with a common edge thickness and a slope to the drain.  That common edge thickness will run level around a shower floor, making the starting line of the wall tiles level.

      If you slice one down in size, the cut will be a section of the sloping part, and no longer will have the edge as thick as elsewhere.  The common edge thickness, thus the level line for wall start, will be lost on the cut edge or edges.

    2. User avater
      EricPaulson | Apr 02, 2006 04:21pm | #15

      I got the 48" x 48", but looking at the product, it can be cut down to whatever shape you need.  So you should be able to do a 36 x 48 no problem.

      No you cannot. You must remove the same amount of material from each edge or you may as well throw the thing away.[email protected]

       

       

      It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

       

       

       

      1. davidmeiland | Apr 02, 2006 05:19pm | #20

        Thanks all for the input.

        I was reading up on Kerdi, and it looks like without their pan setup you need a mortar bed preslope. Correct?

        The TileRedi site is busted. I was trying to look at that a couple of days ago.

        1. User avater
          EricPaulson | Apr 02, 2006 07:10pm | #24

          With out the Schluter tray you need a mud bed.

          The tile Redi site worked fin for me just now. Good luck.

           

          Eric[email protected]

           

           

          It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

           

           

           

        2. User avater
          Mongo | Apr 02, 2006 07:18pm | #25

          David, you are correct. Without the Kerdie tray you will need a deck mud preslope.One advantage of Kerdi over a traditional CPE or CPVC membrane is that with those membranes you need a deck mud preslope, then you install the membrane, then you lay another layer of deck mud over that to tile upon.With Kerdi (without the Kerdi pan) you'll do a deck mud preslope, then Kerdi on that, then tile over the Kerdi.It saves you from having to do the second layer of deck mud.Mongo

      2. User avater
        Mongo | Apr 02, 2006 07:34pm | #26

        Cut and pasted from earlier: "I got the 48" x 48", but looking at the product, it can be cut down to whatever shape you need. So you should be able to do a 36 x 48 no problem.

        No you cannot. You must remove the same amount of material from each edge or you may as well throw the thing away."

        Eric, let me be somewhat of a Devil's Advocate. Or maybe in this case, Barbara's Advocate?

        With the 48" square tray, suppose you want to cut it down to 48" by 36". I FULLY agree with you that in a perfect world, with Schluter's square tray, you want to remove the same amount of material from each edge to keep the tile height line consistant.

        However...

        In this case, trimming it down to 36" by 48", by taking 6" off of two oppposing edges to get it to 36", you'd be lowering the top of those edges only 1/8" below the top of the untrimmed edges.

        The pan is sloped 1/4" per 12", so in trimming 6" you'd lose 1/8" of vertical.

        I could play with and disguise that height differential when tiling and no one would be the wiser.

        Again, I fully agree with your earlier post that it's best to trim a square Schluter pan evenly on all four edges, but I thought I'd post this just to show that if required or desired, eneven trimming of a pan could be worked around.

        Be Schlutered,

        Mongo

        1. davidmeiland | Apr 02, 2006 07:45pm | #27

          I was figuring the same thing... a little thinset trickery to conceal the diff. However, I always prefer to set tile very tightly to the substrate, rather than trying to float tile over slight differences in the setting bed with thinset. It's just my nature.

          The Kerdi deal sounds easy. I can set up screeds and get a mud preslope in place in a couple of hours, wait a day, get the Kerdi floor going and linked to the drain, and then start tiling. BTW, the main attraction to me is the lack of materials that might hold moisture or mold.

          1. User avater
            Mongo | Apr 02, 2006 07:55pm | #28

            With moisture your main concern, Kerdi or some other topical waterproofing is the way to go.

            Not sure if I posted this before, but Tile Protection has some of the better internet prices for Schluter products.

            I've ordered from them in the past with no problems.

            Mongo

          2. davidmeiland | Apr 02, 2006 09:11pm | #29

            If you were doing a mud preslope and Kerdi, would you use their curb or is it equally easy to use a typical 2x4 stack?

          3. User avater
            Mongo | Apr 02, 2006 10:32pm | #30

            Their curb would be easier in terms of less labor on your part. You simply cut the foam to length, then bed it to the subfloor with thinset.If you did a 2x4 stack, then you'd have to then cover the lumber like a traditional curb. Hardware cloth or diamond lathe, then fat mud.
            Or CB I suppose.The Kerdi can be thinsetted to either directly to their foam curb, or CB, or the fat mud covering the 2x4 curb...but not directly to wood.

          4. User avater
            Gene_Davis | Apr 03, 2006 12:06am | #32

            Here is another source for pans and curbs.  You can thinset the Kerdi to these products.  Maybe something in the size you need.  The Kerdi drain may be compatible, but maybe not.  The drain design is the tilesetter's friend, as you can see in the video.

            http://www.bonsal.com/tileproducts_view.html?id=Qq46YHV5eng%3D

            I don't like using softwood lumber, or any lumber for that matter, for curbs.  Wood movement can bite you.

        2. User avater
          EricPaulson | Apr 02, 2006 10:39pm | #31

          No doubt. I agree it could be persuaded to work. I'll bet you could even set those two pieces a little higher.

          I saw the Schluter at JLC also, I didn't study it as long as I should or could have.

          After seeing the Tile Redi base, I got to thinking the Schluter guys seemed a little put off.

          Eric[email protected]

           

           

          It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

           

           

           

      3. BarbaraD | Apr 03, 2006 05:00am | #33

        I hadn't thought about the fact that cutting it down on two sides would drop the level.  But I'm going to have to cut it down about 6" on two sides, plus there's a clipped corner.  It will be difficult, but I'd rather give it a go than just throw it away.  Maybe we can figure out a way to add some mortar to the two cut sides to bring all perimeters to the same level.

        Edited 4/2/2006 10:11 pm ET by BarbaraD

        1. User avater
          DDay | Apr 03, 2006 05:07am | #34

          Did you already buy the shower pan from the site you mentioned in an earlier post?  My Schulter dealers in my area are pretty expensive and they don't stock the pans, so they will order it, why not me?  If you purchased through that site, how was the experience, customer service and did everything your purchased arrive and arrive in good condition.

          thanks.

        2. User avater
          DDay | Apr 03, 2006 05:08am | #35

          Talk to the rep.  I'm sure your not the only one that has encountered this situation.  If there were a difference in height, I'm sure you could just increase the thinset or layer the kerdi to get the small difference

          1. BarbaraD | Apr 03, 2006 05:14am | #36

            Yes, I already bought it from that website (http://www.installertools.com).  It came very quickly and arrived in perfect shape, so yes I recommend buying from them.

            And yeah, I think I'll just have to make the slopes work out.

  5. User avater
    JeffBuck | Apr 02, 2006 08:02am | #10

    swanstone.

    Jeff

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

    1. CAGIV | Apr 02, 2006 08:07am | #11

      What is swanstone made of?

      1. User avater
        JeffBuck | Apr 02, 2006 08:31am | #12

        same as corian ...

        plastic!

         

        Jeff    Buck Construction

         Artistry In Carpentry

             Pittsburgh Pa

        1. CAGIV | Apr 02, 2006 08:38am | #13

          sounds like the same as ONYX

           

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Apr 02, 2006 04:22pm | #16

            I am not sure what Onyx is made from. But I though that it was the same process as cultured marble.That is a gel in a form and then bulk material is cast. Other than drill hole and cutting of hidden edges it can't be machined.OTOH solid surface material (COrian, Swanstone, HiMacs, etc) is a filler in a plastic resin and it is made in sheet form and then can be molded, machines, and joined for form more complex shapes.

  6. User avater
    EricPaulson | Apr 02, 2006 04:24pm | #17

    Tile Redi  - Water Proof Shower Pans

    http://www.tileredi.com/pages/shower_pans.htm

    Just so everyone knows I was paying attention at JLC! I saw this in person and I would give it a thumbs up. They even have your size. Worth checking out.

    Eric

    [email protected]

     

     

    It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

     

     

     

  7. tab1 | Apr 02, 2006 05:40pm | #21

    Cheap and easy: On the floor, PVC (I think) membrane followed by tinted concrete. Swanstone walls. I did this in my last house and loved it, as do the women who bought the house. Shower just happens to be over a heating duct so the concrete stays fairly warm in the winter, and the concrete texture feels great--and safe--to your feet. Maintenance/cleaning is extremely easy.

    1. davidmeiland | Apr 02, 2006 05:46pm | #22

      Sounds like you poured your own concrete pan? How did you integrate the drain, and how did you finish the surface?

      1. tab1 | Apr 02, 2006 06:18pm | #23

        That house was on a slab and I was redoing an existing shower, so the drain, tile floor and pan was already there. I put in a new liner on top of the old tile, extended the drain vertically to the new height needed then placed some gravel around the base so that if any water got through the concrete it would be able to drain. Poured new concrete right up to the new drain.Surface was troweled, and probably mostly due to my inexperience, just happened to end up with just the right amount of texture, though it looks fairly smooth. IIRC I then put on a concrete sealer.HTHThon

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