i have read through the archives and found some confusing advice on pan liners and the mortar bed, any clarification would be greatly appreciated. here goes
1. i have installed a 40 mil. vinyl pan liner but i did NOT pre-slope, i had never heard of doing that until i read through the archives tonight. is this a huge problem?
2.i have not yet mudded the pan, i was planning on using type s mortar (dry mix) this is what i was told to use. does that sound correct??
3.do i have to put any steel in the mud (i.e. lath etc.)???
4.can i do the mortar bed in two or three sections (over a few days) this is a huge shower approx. 40 sq. ft. and i will only have one helper and he will be mixing while i am setting.
5.is there any GOOD waterPROOFING agent i can add to the mortar so hopefully water never even gets to the liner.
i would hire this out but EVERYONE is busy and will be for a few months, i have been calling around for 3 weeks already to no avail. i’m sure i can do it, but i just wanted to see if i’m on the right track
oh, i promise not to block the weep holes;-)
thanx in advance,
fm2
“the large print givith, and the small print taketh away” Tom Waits
“those with accurate observation are often called a cynic by those who have not got it” george bernard shaw
Replies
I 've only done a few shower pans, but I'll share what I know. I always pre sloped with mortar and then installed my liner, but you can simply slope the mortar now instead. It's easiest if you rip some wood on a taper to simulate your desired slope. Set the wood taper strips in your shower area and pack your mortar around theses wooden strips.... later, remove the taper strips and fill in these gaps with remaining mortar.
As for mortar, I believe type S is fine...I usually just used prepackaged regular strength mortar ( Quickcrete or Sacrete brands worked fine ).
As for metal, I did not use it in mine, and they have not cracked, but these showers were both small ( approx 15 S.F.). Normally, it is recommended that chicken wire or regular metal lath be used. In your case, being the shower is fairly large, I'd probably use some. Just fill install mud to about one half the finished thickness before installing the lath into the mud. Then install rest of mud on top.
If you use the taper sticks as a guide, simply mix up a large (wheel barrow) batch of mud and start dumping in...40 S.F. or not, this should not take you more than an hour or two to accomplish...there is no reason you should have to string this process into several days. It would be stronger for the mortar to be down and packed all at one time...with a helper, this should not be a problem at all...what?...your shower is say 5ft X 8 Ft?....mud pan is only a few inches thick?....C'mon you can do it!
As for waterproofing agent, I'd just use any recommended latex additive such as Thoroseal or something similiar.
Do make sure you dont block the weep holes or else all your hard work is for not. Use tile spacers or just some plain pea gravel around this area to keep mortar out.
Good luck...this really isn't very hard...especially if you have ever worked with concrete before.,...just keep mix as dry as possible, yet just wet enough to gel together. First time I did one, I was nervous as hell, but it really turned out fine...was a piece of cake...you too will find this task to be easier than first thought.
Davo
The reason for the preslope is so the vinyl liner will be sloped toward the weep holes. If it is flat, the moisture that get to the liner may not drain.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Make sure that an area that size is very very stable...if joists under, double them, for instance. MIght be overkill, but that's the sort of crack that isn't funny
cheers
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
I don't agree that you can simply try to 'waterproof' your setting bed and hope that water does not saturate the bed with no slope to the drain. I would remove the liner, install a preslope using 'deck mud' (available in sacks at good tile stores), and then install your setting bed, also using deck mud.
For the size of what you are doing, the right mud will be critical... you need to be able to shape and screed the mud to the slope you need. Deck mud has the working properties that will make that possible, and you will be able to work with it in a methodical, controlled way. I'm not sure if Quikcrete makes a deck mud but this is NOT a job for ready-mix concrete or anything like that.
I suggest you call a halt to the work and read Michael Byrne's book 'Setting Tile', which has a chapter on shower floors. There are many details ahead of you still that you may not be clear on. Check the John Bridge tile forum for the refinements to the method that have come out since the book was published.
No sense in doing all that work and having it turn out poorly.
Dude:You are fine. Just unbolt the drain assembly and remove the pan liner carefully. Don't tear the bolt holes.Float a pre-slope per instructions, about a quarter inch per foot. I actually like to goose it to about three eighths. Re-install the membrane. Cost is about $20 for the mortar.Speaking of mortar, just go to a local tile store and buy some "Deck Mud". It is $5 a bag. Or make your own, Portland Cement and Sand, about a 5-1 mix. You'll need "Wall Float" (Deck Mud with some lime in it) for the curb, though. Regular deck mud isn't sticky enough.Get a book on shower construction--Michael Byrne's or John Bridge's. Good Luck.
Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Freeman is going to be working for free demoing the shower if he keeps going.
The pre slope is so whatever water gets to the pan drains. With a flat pan there is no drainage so the water will just sit like a big petri dish.
Mortar mix ain't the kind.
You need something in the pan, wire or lath. It's only an inch thick, needs something to keep it together.
You need to do it in one pour (not the right term, but that's the idea).
Admix will make the bed itself waterproof I think, but water will get under it at the edges anyway. It doesn't stick to plastic so imagine a big slab sitting on plastic with water under it and no drainage.
Get the book, do more research or wait until you can get it done. A shower is a huge expensive project, and tearing it back apart is a huger mess.
Good luck.
Joe H
Joe H is right, its a whole heck of a lot cheaper to do it right NOW.
Around our area, we have to get inspections along the way , from so many leakers, and liability has gone up , so some tile guys dont do it anymore, they actually sub it to someone else.. the pan liner has to hold water for 24 hours and weeps have to be free. On the last one, the inspector actually went under the house to check for leaks.
He, the specialist , now charges $500 minimum just for a pan, and laughs, because he considers it a no brainer
somewhat related, did you all see that greenboard can no olonger be used in wet applications, such as behind tub and shower surrounds. It was at the JLC site.
o.k. i'll stop production and try to find the books recomended here. i feel stupid for following the advice of the home depot tile book. i'll have to get a new liner, i don't think it will survive a tear out intact with the dams glue on already, but thats o.k. like ya'll said do it right! small price to pay at this stage. thank you everyone for your expertise.
fm2"the large print givith, and the small print taketh away" Tom Waits
"those with accurate observation are often called a cynic by those who have not got it" george bernard shaw
You might try the local plumbing supply for liner material and someone to install it.
There is more than one liner material, HD only has PVC.
Joe H
You've made the right decision. It will avoid a future job like the one that I'm on now.
The HO will be paying me more than ten grand, because his shower leaked. He never realized it (crawlspaces don't complain), and he needed about 10 feet of main carrying beam replaced, along with the floor, subfloor, joists, shower, and a couple of interior walls.
Pat yourself on the back, and sleep well.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
ok
big red flag now, that you should have mentioned first
you got your advice from Home Depot
now I really say
start over with real advice
You have chosen wise grasshopper; to get an education first!
Your job is an "advanced" pro job. If you are a beginner or an ho, I would suggest leaving it to a good tile setter.
If you know waht you are doing it is not a difficult job. It is REALLY EASY to screw this up so bad you will be kicking yourself in the azz long after writing the check to the pro 2.5 years from now. Not to mention the damage from the leak beneath!
Good luck.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
why would anybody take advice from someone that makes less than $8 a hour, if they knew what they was doing they be in the real world.
It's still not too late to remove the pan liner...and throw it in the trash. Then, forget the pre-slope, install KERDI drain, mud the floor, and KERDI it (and the walls). Done.
No leaks, no weep holes clogged, no water and fungi under your shower floor, ever.
I would take it one step further and use the new Kerdi preslope kit.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
I agree; whole hearted lee!!
But do they make them that big. last I looked the largest was for a tub replacement, something like 61x32??
4.can i do the mortar bed in two or three sections (over a few days) this is a huge shower approx. 40 sq. ft. and i will only have one helper and he will be mixing while i am setting.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
whats thsi Kerdi you guys are talking about
Go to http://www.schluter.com and burrow down into products. Search and you will find.
There is an excellent video of a guy putting a whole shower together.
The heart of it all is the membrane, a plastic mat with a fleece backing and a textured face, which is bonded to your substrate with unmodified thinset, then tiled over.
Used on shower walls, all the pros do here is just put up plain old drywall, then Kerdi over it for tiling shower and tub walls.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
That Kerdi pre-slope looks pretty cool..Have you tried it?Kerdi ROCKS.
Nope. Want to, but the planned shower size is not compatible with the product.
Whaddya figure to be your mud preslope cost to be, with the mud and labor? I haven't priced the Kerdi stuff.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Gene,
You can't compare costs on this. It's apples and oranges.
http://www.tile-experts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=KK82152%2FE
It's a labor of love. It's just a different product.
I've watched the videos and looked at the product specs. quite thoroughly.
I had a job lined up to use it and it fell through, I think I was more disappointed that I didn't get the chance to play with this stuff than that I lost the job.
To me it seems the way to go. You don't put a membrane beneath a leaky roof to catch the water and direct it out. That is what a mud job is currently.
The Schluter system waterproofs the job where it should be, above the substrate, just like a roof.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I've got indirect experience with Schluter's Kerdi shower system, in that I had a tile sub do a couple in a house I built. It was his first time doing it with Kerdi, so I helped, meaning that I was the one who read the instructions and watched the video, then gave the oral presentation, mixed mud, and supervised.
My previous experiences were using felt over the studs, Durock, mud preslope, CPVC pan liner, yadda yadda yadda.
I'll never have it done without Schluter, in future.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
i didn't get my advice FROM the h.d. creeps i just happen to have an h.d. book called tile 1-2-3 among other publications as well, including one by taunton. NONE of them mention anything about pre-slope. last night i was able to find some good books on the subject. i now feel like i am on the right track. no book yet has mention the kerdi stuff, i got the phone number for the only distributor here (redding ca.) but no one ever answers the phone?? so i must procceed without his product. i will spread modified thinset on sub. after dry do my pre slope then put down 30# felt and then the liner, and finally my deck, after protecting the weep hole of course.
by the way the entire shower (cieling included) is 1/2" backer board with taped and mortar joints, scratch coat of modified thinset, the finish is cultured stone (ceiling included)stream stone to be exact. i have done the entire shower except for the bottom 2 feet. after the liner goes down i will install the rest of the wonder board keeping it 1" off the floor and then lay my deck down. all of the framing has been beefed up thoroughly all around. and should more than accomodate the est. 5000 lbs. this shower will weigh. there are windows on the long wall of the shower that look out into a rock mountainside in the lovely shasta-trinity forest. there is no other type of shower that would do this setting justice, everyone thought i was completly nuts trying to do this, even the guy who sold me the cultured stone wants to put up pictures in their store when i am done with it. this is the most creatively fullfilling job i have ever done, but i probably would never do it again.
thanx
fm2
"the large print givith, and the small print taketh away" Tom Waits
"those with accurate observation are often called a cynic by those who have not got it" george bernard shaw
You have tar paper on the wall behind that backer board? Or plastic sheet.
The paper has to hang over the pan to drain into it.
Joe H
yes i hung 10 mil. sheeting behind the backer board
fm2"the large print givith, and the small print taketh away" Tom Waits
"those with accurate observation are often called a cynic by those who have not got it" george bernard shaw
"i will spread modified thinset on sub. after dry do my pre slope then put down 30# felt and then the liner, and finally my deck,"
Why put thinset on the subfloor? Michael Byrne's method is to put felt on the floor as a cleavage layer and then deck mud with embedded wire mesh directly over that. Then the liner, then another layer of deck mud as the setting bed. I also am not sure about your reference above to felt and then the liner. No need for felt under the liner. I still say you oughta buy and read his book.
edit: you could also buy the Tile Council of America handbook, which has detail drawings of everything you need.
Edited 6/15/2005 2:11 am ET by davidmeiland
Please come back and post pictures when you're done.
You can use the same thread.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Gene, did you use that metal corner joint stuff?
I haven't ever seen that stuff in the flesh, but I watched the video a few years ago & thought no way would I want that in my shower. Looked like hell in the video.
Joe H
No. Never have used an outside corner.
But, we have used end strips, inside corners, and coves.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Joe, the trim pieces are not necessarily part of the waterproofing process. And yes; I'd say they are a 'bit' commercial looking, or perhaps European if you will.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
What Eric said. It's not about saving money (at least on the front end). Kerdi is simply a superior concept. And yes, a professional installation can be used directly over drywall for a shower (although for a steam shower or a sauna, I think I'd still be more comfortable using at least Denshield under it).The traditional mudded shower will still always have moisture under the tile. It may never leak, but it will grow mold. A copper shower pan may be the exception. But I've done repairs on properly mudded--in fact entire mudded showers, walls and floors--which were completely infiltrated w/ fungi mycillium beneath the tile. Kerdi stops the water dead at the tile/substrate interface.
What will happen if you don't preslope is mildew and a musty smell. The moisture in the mortar will constantly feed and support mildew.
Shower pan specialist trick for mortar slope is to premix cement and moist sand in a pile, shovel it in to place, pack it down with the shovel head and then sprinkle with water.
I saw one lady call 3 of the biggest plumbing advertisers who charged her over a $1000 to change trap and vent, that did not stop the smelly shower. Flashlight down the drain revealed no weep holes.