Whenever I do anything complex, I always do at least one critical thing wrong.
Can’t seem to break the pattern.
I started building a custom shower in December, in my own home, in my spare time, inspired by FHB. Plumbing and tile and masonry work are things I have done on and off over the years, but usually avoided when possible. I prefer framing, electrical, HVAC, and even roofing. In spite of my weaknesses in this area, the shower turned out just about perfect and looks fabulous. I ran into some serious problems, but solved them all. After installing the tile, I got to the part where I install the face plate and test the fit of the shower handle. At this point, my morale went downhill. The Kohler valve body was installed 1/2″ too deep. I had misinterpreted the instructions and the diagram in the installation guide, in spite of studying them again and again. I will never make that mistake again. But how will I get out of this mess? The face plate is about 1″ thick. The two stainless steel screws that hold it in place are 2.25″ long and do not engage the threads in the valve body.
The only reasonable thing I can think of is to try to locate some 2.75″ ss screws and crank them down a bit more than normal. This might allow the handle to function, although with a bit of rubbing on the graphic ring.
A better solution would be to grind down the face plate about 3/8″. I am afraid this would lead to corrosion problems.
I hope I won’t have to go into the wall from the other side and move the valve body out. My wonderful wife has been very patient, but I have been abusing her tolerance.
I have asked for advice on BT before, but now I need help. I have learned there is a difference.
Although I would gladly welcome divine inspiration, my only earthly hope is this forum.
Replies
Because valves generally only install at one level, most valves have a threaded portion that brings the knurled portion in and out about a half an inch. If you valve doesn't have this, you will likely have to break up the tile in the front and re-install the valve unit.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I am prioritizing them in the order of what I will try to do first. Have sent an e-mail to Kohler. May start with the face plate grinding first. Plan to go into the other side of the wall before knocking out any tile. Will post the results because it seems to me this is a problem that could easily happen to anyone and there should be a reasonable solution short of demolishing the shower wall, considering the millions of shower valves sold and the relatively weak installation instructions and drawings.
LesLes Barrett Quality Construction
I should ask, which model Kohler are you using?
It is the Kohler Fairfax R 12007-4S-CP. I assume the CP means chrome-plated. It is a rotating single-handle pressure-balanced valve. The face plate is 1" thick, with a white plastic graphic ring mounted within the face plate. The handle goes on last and would press against the graphic ring very tightly if I were to force it into position. I am afraid that this would create a situation where wear on the graphic ring might be a problem.Les Barrett Quality Construction
That is the exact same piece I had to "trim" to fit around the installed to high rope tile. Just run a strip of masking tape around then mark a line and cut with tin snips. To clean it up, if needed, get some fine emery cloth on a flat surface and "rub" in circles. It will look fine. I would avoid breaking tile if I could.
If you go the route of cutting into the tile from the face side I would suggest that instead of the center punch, use a angle grinder with a masonary/tile blade to cut the tile.
Also if you need to machine the face of the cover plate and want it done to perfection you could take to a machine shop and they will be able to mill it to what you need. Maybe a little pricey but .
Thanks for the suggestions. I will definitely go the machine shop route if I grind the face plate. I have been struggling with ways to do it myself.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Plan to go into the other side of the wall
Now, around my fair cities, access panels are required behind the valves, so I kind of think that's good idea. So, lemons to lemonade, you get to add a feature to the bath, and use whatever craft or art you want to.
I wish my uh-ohs were simple, or predictable . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Go thru the back and move the body...
but try the screws 1st...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I am only guessing there, but you might check with Kholer and a plumbing supply house to see if they make any extenders or kits to solve this kind of problem.
Try what Boris suggested and if your Kohler valve doesn't allow you to do that I would just go through the back and reset the body.
Patching drywall and painting is easy and you don't have to look around for ss screws and extender kit etc., and wait for shipment. Trust me, you don't want to make your wife wait another week.
Just my 2 cents.
Les,
When I first came to CoMo. I got hired as a commercial plumber on a 500 unit job. Pretty soon I was the T-shooter and I probably replaced 50 shower valve bodies. All in tiled showers.
Takes about 2 hours, (after the first 25 or so,) Stick a pencil point into the end of the valvestem as a guide, slip the face over the pencil and mark the circle made by the face.
You'll need a DW hammer, a center punch, a pair of 12" channel locks, and a chisel sharp 1 1/2" putty knife.
Using the DW hammer (or similar weight and swing) center punch each tile that touches the face circle. Start with the closest tile to the stem, whack the punch as hard as you would to drive a 1 5/8 DW nail almost to the paper.
Use the pliers to break and remove chunks of tile, the knife can be driven behind stubborn pieces.
Cut and remove the feathers from the DW paper, (if applicable,) remark the face circle on the tile backing, and remove it, leaving 1" clear inside the face circle.
This should give you enough room to do whatever you need to.
A couple of backer slats and redo the wall and tile. If needed, you can get a larger face at any plumbing only supply house.
SamT
If its Kohler then its made of brass and you won't have a problem with rust. Triming it down neatly will be the trick. If you use shears try to keep a cutting edge rolling around as you cut. Or use a angle grinder with fine paper to clean it up. Its very thin so be very gental. Kohler will send you a new one (for a price) if you mess up. I have done it and it works out ok, don't forget to replace the foam around the rim.
Les,
I have no help to offer you. I think you will have to open up the wall to correct the problem.
But I do offer understanding. I have found the instructions for shower valves to be quite confusing on the particular point of how to get the face fluch with the wall. They are a pain.
Edit: "fluch"??????
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Edited 7/13/2004 12:02 am ET by Rich Beckman
I can't remember the brand name (I can check when I get home) but the shower valve I just installed at my place actually had a line in the instructions about how to order an extender kit if the valve were installed too deep.
If it's me, I'd much rather wait a week or two for an extender kit to be delivered instead of busting a hole in the wall. But then, there's nothing I hate more than trying to repair drywall.
That would be the ideal solution. It would be the miracle I am hoping for.Les Barrett Quality Construction
les
use a roto zip to cut the face tile they make a bit for that purpose, as long as it is wall tile which is softer than floor tile bit will just heat up red and break if used on floor tile wear glasses can make a nice circle cut on the wall for anti-scald control, use the depth guide
good luck
Thanks for the tip. I am actually using 11 1/2" square floor tiles for floor and wall, with the exception of the pan, where I have placed mosaic tiles to accommodate the slope. I did cut a very nic circle for the valve body by using my wet tile saw to cut a square out of the center of the 5 1/2" circle. I then cut grooves into the remaining material within the circle and broke the pieces out with a nipper. I smoothed out the edge with a masonry wheel in my 4" Makita grinder.Les Barrett Quality Construction
i've used the larger floor tile on bath walls not conventional, but looks good, fewer grout joints too can save some money compared to pricey large wall tiles
Ed2 and CaseyR,
In case you are interested, I had some trouble cutting the hole for the shower spout. Tried several methods, including a special carbide bit just for this purpose. Broke two tiles trying to make the cut, even using a drill press carefully. Finally, I used some diamond-covered bits that I had bought for my Dremel about five years ago on sale ($5.00) I burned up the first two bits getting through the glaze. Disclaimer: Don't try this at home: Then I decided to use the wet-saw principle. I submerged the tile in a pan of water on a rubber mat. Then I carefully used one diamond bit to grind out the hole. Worked great.
Capn Mac,
I was going to install a panel behind the wall anyway;however, I did not want to take apart the whole wall of shelves in my master closet. Figured I could do that later if there were any problems. When I build my dream house, I will have a walk-in access to all plumbing.
Spoke with Kohler rep today. They have a deep installation kit - $16.00 - Will find out if it does the job in about a week.
USANigel,
I will keep your excellent tips in mind if the kit is not appropriate to the problem. I especially don't want to break any tile since it is some very tough Brazilian floor tile.
Maverick,
I woke up again and again thinking about the problem, and at about four in the morning, I thought... Why not get some appropriate material turned to specs? I thought this might be a good thing to do just before taking my Bosch Rotary Hammer to the tile.
One way or another, the job will get done. Thanks again to everyone. I hope all of you have learned as much from your posts as I have. Again, I will update you as to whether the kit solves the problem. I usually try to use Delta or Kohler products after some disappointing results with others which I will not name. The custom shower was new territory for me. I learned a whole lot that I have not posted here, such as some information that would have made Tom Meehan's articles more comprehensive. I reviewed the installation instructions for the faucet system again this morning to see where I went wrong. I just took the blame on myself initially. Now I can see why I was confused. The instructions contained the right information in graphical form, although it was confusing. The text had conflicting information. Because I had not installed this type of valve before and because the graphics were subject to interpretation, I decided to go with the text. I will call the manufacturer before making that assumption again. I hope this will help someone else. Get somebody on the phone and get an answer before you take a possibly irreversible step.
Thanks again,
LesLes Barrett Quality Construction
Read the reply and would like to point out, though you now have gotten your degree. Obviously the most important issue when doing this job is the finish point. I always grind on the info to establish the centering of the valve so it's within the design range of the finished surface. And it seems that yes it's some of the worst presented info for ease of use.
Just for future ref, when I made holes in tile for our upstairs bathroom I used an old hole saw, working from the BACK, to bore for the shower head. This way I didn't have to break the glaze first. Recked the hole saw, of course, but this was a one-off job anyway.
Then (this was probably softer stuff, of course) I used an old fly cutter to cut the hole (about 5", IIRC) for the valve, also from the back. The fly cutter tip shattered just as I was finishing, but was close enough that I could finish up with nippers.
This was all using a grungy old tabletop drill press.
Dremel makes a tile bit for their small rotary tools. I found it drilled and cut wall tile with surprising speed. Used it to make cutouts for faucet stems and it worked well. Don't know about floor tile, however.
If you are going to a Machine shop anyway, just have them turn an extender on a lathe out of plastic. then get some longer SS screws.
Do you have a wood lathe or a drill press. Mount the face plate on a plywood disk and figure a way to attach to one of these machines. Drill press would need a bolt for the chuck to accept, lathe a faceplate to receive plywood disk. As the metal face plate spins draw a file across the edge. You will take off a very small amount each time. Eventually you will get to the depth you need. I have never tried this with your particular problem, I have used this method for similar things . Used this method to grind down round bar stock to be used as shafts for machinery I have built. The worst case scenario with grinding down Kohler plate is it does not work. Then you will have to chop tile and buy new plate.
mike
Thanks again. I appreciate the advice and will use it one idea at a time as practical to solve my problem if the kit does not do the trick. I expect it today or tomorrow. The tile is really hard and will not drill in conventional fashion. I used diamond dremel bits under water to do the showere nozzle opening and a wet saw followed by nippers to do the valve opening. Both of these worked out to be in the center of a tile. I plan to try a glass drilling bit for the towel bar screws. If that doesn't work, I will use cauld to build up a small water tray on the wall and use the diamond bits again - difficult but not impossible.Les Barrett Quality Construction
A glass bit will probably get you started with the holes more accurately, but regular masonry bit will be better for most of the depth. The key though is to use a hammer drill, not a regular drill. Trust me, BTDT.
Thanks! I will try your method. I will practice on some tile which has been thin-setted to backer board just for test purpose. I do not want to make a mistake at this point.
BTW, for all the other folks who have given me great tips, I have just received my deep rough-in kit from Kohler. It seems to be the miracle I have been hoping for. This kit extends the valve out about 3/4". It consists of longer SS screws, an extended valve stem, and a longer sleeve. I will be able to use all the other original parts. Will let you know if it works. Won't have time to install it for a few days. Les Barrett Quality Construction
Congrats!!!
Does this mean you will take a bath and quit stinkin the place up???
(|:>)
SamT
No, ge will now take a SHOWER and quit stinking up the place.
And for I am thankfull. I am downwind from him.