I designed a home for a friend of mine on the east coast. We are using 4″ exposure cedar clap boards for the lower half of the structure. The design calls mitered corners, basically we are omitting the modern corner board. To compromise on craftsmanship and cost I recommended the use of “tin corners”. These are the preformed metal corners which will cover the gap between poorly mitered clapboards. The problem is that I’m having difficulty finding them. Do any members have a source?
Certified boat fetish.
Replies
Dunno where you can get them any more (since they were most commonly used on hardboard siding), but I'm gonna jump in and say that they're an excellent choice (before others jump in to say the opposite). No caulking, no chance of the joints opening up, and they have a neat, business-like appearance.
I don't understand why they aren't more frequently used.
Because everybody has gone maintance free and cheap. It's either vinyl siding or a corner board.
Certified boat fetish.
It really wouldn't be too hard to make your own. You'd have to build a jig to bend them, of course, but not that complicated. Hard part would be cutting out the blanks, but should be doable.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
A mitered corner would never stay tight. Whoever specced mitered corners is an idiot who has no idea how wood moves with temperature and humidity. It will look fugly in a year guaranteed. The tried and true corner board is the way to go. Be sure to butt the siding to the corner and do not cover the siding with the cornerboard unless you want to make many happy homes for spiders. Here is a nice detail for cornerboards that looks nice, does not have a crack and has equal reveal. It may take a little ripping though to rabbet the edge.
I appreciate your opinion, but realize that corner boards were only used on barns and out buildings where as the woven corner was used on the main house. This is a very standard detail from the 1800's to late 1930's. The detail persisted through the 60's, but was simplified using these tin corners. As for an idiot, well I guess that I designed this house so I do take offence at your comment. Thanks.
Certified boat fetish.
Well... Maybe cornerboards are a west coast thing but I doubt it. I respectfully disagree with Dan. Corner boards do not have to be caulked. If you think so then please explain why. Always lay the tarpaper continuous under the corners and the siding. Cut the pieces spring tight. They will not shrink very much in length so you don't have to worry about a gap opening up. You have to prime and paint/stain the end grain though.
Here are some homes circa 1870 that are not barns or out buildings that have cornerboards. These homes are near and around Port Orford Oregon. These homes are typical of homes in that era on the west coast. On the east coast too I might add.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
Corner boards are / were common in Tennessee on homes built during the era mentioned. Many times the corner detail in the old homes includes a radiused corner (3/4 round over). We duplicated this look in a historic home many years ago.
Trim often includes a 1 x 12 starter skirt with drip cap over the top as siding starter / 1 x 6 window and door trim with cornice and bedmold / 1 x 6 corner boards with radused corners / 1 x 6 freeze board with bedmold at the soffit....very common and typical of homes in the south. Lots of the siding and trim was cypress....still avalialbe.
I'll bet some the South Carolina BTers know what I am taking about, especially if they have been to Charleston.
Add to the detail above a bead board porch ceilng that may be the only thing on the house painted sky blue. Why? Old wives tale...sky blue porch ceiling helps keeps the bugs away...it may be true.
Don't know where you're getting your historical info but I live in the center of classic New England village. Most of the dozens of houses within the historic district date from the mid-18th through late 19th century. With the exception of a few that are brick, they ALL have corner boards. I'd opin that this detail is the standard, at least in this region.
Just for grins I went out during lunch and checked out the siding on some of the older homes in Rochester MN. Rochester is a relatively "new" town (founded 1854) and hasn't done a terrific job of historical preservation, so the oldest homes generally date back to about 1900, with a few maybe to 1890. The area where I toured (the east side of Pill Hill) has some of the oldest homes that are still relatively well preserved, most dating, I'd guess, between 1900 and 1940. There are other homes of similar vintage farther north (on the other side of 2nd St S), but they've almost all been resided at some point. (Observations were done from the car, so couldn't always discern details of mitered vs woven vs tin corners.)What I found is mostly what I expected. With siding narrower than 6" or so you tend to see corner boards, while with siding wider than that you don't. Note that most of the good lumber in Minnesota had been shipped to Chicago by 1900, so wide wood siding was rare and the wider stuff was usually either shakes or asbestos shingles, with hardboard on many of the newer (post 1930, I'd guess) homes.Interestingly, two of the oldest (possibly pre-1900) homes, with narrow siding (roughly 4" exposure, I'm guessing) had (apparently) mitered corners, and several other homes with narrow siding had a mix of corner boards and mitered corners.Tin corners appeared to be present on most of the hardboard homes and on at least one home of uncertain vintage that appeared to have about 6" wood siding. Tin corners were present maybe half or 2/3rds of the time on the asbestos shingle homes.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Take a closeer look.
I'm betting that more than you think of those you reported to be mitred were actually woven - or crosss lapped, which is far easier to install and a better job to boot.I'll agree that this particular design looks good without breaking up the horizontal lines, and since he is using mteal caps to cover the corners anyway, he would be better off weaving a lap instead of wasting all the time mitreing them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm reasonably sure that at least one of the old narrow clap houses was mitered, but I couldn't tell for certain from the distance, and figured it wasn't really the issue here, so I didn't try to make a positive ID.Point is that around here even narrow clap was occasionally done without cornerboards, and the wide claps/shingles usually were. Now, Rochester MN isn't exactly an architectural wonderland, but most of the folks who built those houses were from Out East, and they picked up the style from somewhere (and of course adapted it to existing conditions and materials).
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
(I should have said in my earlier post, though, that I was using "mitered" generically -- to mean "not with corner boards".)
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Piffin,
Good to see you posting again. I hardly knew the place for the past two or three days.
I agree with you that lapped siding would work better than mitred and was just wondering how to make the install easy. I was thinking you could let a board run over the corner, hack it off in place with a (Milwaukee) circular saw and trim with a bottom bearing template type router bit. You'd need a guide to trim the first board up on each level. A wooden bevel "square" assembled from two pieces of scrap would work. (You'd need two.) For the second board, the first board would be your guide.
It might be easier than marking each one separately. Might not, too.
Ron
Take a look at greek revival and feederal architecture details. Woven corners are for shingles.
Cornerboards date back to true classical design.
Mitered corners are designed for failure.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Corner boards require caulking and are a potential source of leakage. Plus they're not very forgiving with regard to getting lengths exactly right. And they add a "heavy" look that isn't always appropriate to the structure.IIRC this is fiber-cement siding, so even if the tin corners did hold moisture (which they don't), there'd be no serious danger of rot (except in the corner boards).[Oops -- I see this is cedar lap. I **do** wish we could view the entire thread when posting.]
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Edited 8/17/2006 3:42 pm by DanH
"[Oops -- I see this is cedar lap. I **do** wish we could view the entire thread when posting.]"Open up a second window. The only problem is that I forget to do it before I start replying.
Yeah, but the second window is a PITA to open, and there's not enough real estate on my display to have two open.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Oops..... Now I notice that you are the designer. I only meant to call some clueless architect an idiot. Sorry.
Cornerboards are not "modern". Perhaps you could weave corners using medium cedar shakes if you do not want corner boards. Metal corner covers would be hard to make good looking. I also think unless the wood is well primed under the metal corner it would be a likely place to cause rot because water would seep in and stay there. I think tin corners would be more work too and a compromise in curb appeal.
Here are the corners on our house. The siding was replaced (with Masonite "Woodsman") about 15 years ago, has been repainted once since then. The corners are standard aluminum ones.[Deleted the erroneous file.]
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Edited 8/21/2006 6:21 pm by DanH
Dan, if you chose - edit post, then you will have a button to "manage attachments. That will take you to a list of the attached photos, where you can mark the one you want to delete.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I knew that but forgot it. I knew you couldn't add any files when editing, but forgot you could remove them.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
When I was growing up my parents had a house which was over 100 years old and the corners were mitered. The area being mitered is not more than about 1/2" to 3/4" of thickness. To help siding to stay put, I was taught 37 years ago to back prime or completely paint the siding first. A building I did in 1984 had siding that had been on only about three years and some of it had fallen on the ground. I replaced the siding in 1984 and it is still just like the day I put it on. When I put wood siding on I completely paint the siding and paint each joint. Never once has there ever been any problem. I also check the moisture content of the lumber first. Today a lot of the softwood driers are greedy to make a buck and turn out garbage that contractors and lumber yards buy unknowingly. Some of that wood will hardly be dried to 15% MC. Nobody who dries hardwood would be so stupid to think that their buyers would buy such material. But the softwood industry is an ever changing chain of events in an effort to sell the public a bunch of nonsense. The good suppliers have and still are good but it is others who are out there producing junk.
I think any good lumber yard would have them or could get them. Bet a True Value Hardware store could order them. If not let me know how many you need & we can get them for you. We get them all the time from BMC West Lumber .
1110D
I couldn't find those corners either (ya they could be ordered but huge $$$$)so i had a sheet mtl co make them. Min 500 pcs. but much less per pc than the aluminum ones. These were for a specific deck face detail that was exposed and constantly wet. I would opt for a corner board as suggested... a 10 foot corner with metal isn't going to look good IMHO
Also, I would agree that the mitred corner can prone to movement/opening up over time however this depends on exposure, climate, material/fastening technique etc. The mitres on the 1959, 10" bevel siding on my house are as tight as the day they were installed but are well protected by large overhangs. I have repaired many on much newer that were not so good.
These are the preformed metal corners which will cover the gap between poorly mitered clapboards.
To compromise on craftsmanship and cost I recommended the use of "tin corners". The problem is that I'm having difficulty finding them.
Why in the world would you design in a problem like a mitered joint when it is going to be exposed to the weather if you did not have to. After a rain the sun is going to dry one side of the house faster then the other so the wood on that side will shrink faster and move more then the side that is not getting the sun and destroy the joint.
Not only that but trying to fix a problem joint you designed into the project you speck out a fix that you can't find. Now tin corners may also have to have manufactured by a tin smith or the sideling installer. To me it sounds very expensive. Unless the owner suggested it and insisted on that fetcher why would you do that to a customer and especially a friend.
1110d
Louisiana-Pacific, the largest, maybe the only, manufacturer of the hardboard siding mentioned above no longer supplies metal outside corners of the type you want for use with their product. They still supply metal joiners for butt joints and they will supply continuous outside corners similar to vinyl outside corners,
I wonder why they dropped the individual outside corners from the product list? Maybe because they used to get knocked off, beat up and they were impossible to replace ten years on??
There was a long discussion here a few months ago about mitred corners on clapboard. As I recall, the weight of opinion was against, but house building doesn't depend on consensus and there was also some discussion about how to do it right if you absolutely had to do it.
My opinion is that it takes way too much time and effort and results in a job that is more vulnerable to damage from all kinds of causes. I could happily put in the time and effort if I thought it would make a better job, but I don't think that.
I have no direct experience confirming this but I think that metal corners might be the exact wrong thing to do with mitred claps, becasue they would hold water at the corners in the end grain even when the rest of the board was drying. This could establish some very destructive internal stresses in the board.
A corner board doesn't have to be big to work, you know. A common corner board on old shingle jobs around here is a quarter cylinder with a radius of about 1 1/2" and a square removed from the centre so it will sit on the sheathing corner. It isn't all that hard to make, if you have a big router or know where to find a shaper. Corners like that can last for a century or more.
Ron
Metal corners are no more subject to damage than a wood cornerboard. (And far more durable than plastic.)
I suspect that LP dropped the corners because styles changed and they stopped selling.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Dan,
They corners in question used to be thin aluminum with a crinkle finish. I don't remember if they were nailed at all. I have often seen them missing from hardboard siding and I have seen them dented and flying in the wind. A thrown rubber ball wold knock them off.
Being more durable than plastic doesn't impress me.
Certainly you could make metal corners better than those old ones and I think they'd be fine on Hardie or hardboard, maybe even on vinyl, but I think they would damage wood siding.
Look at it this way - I'm not completely out to lunch on that, am I? Would you risk many thousands of dollars betting that I'm totally wrong when you have nothing to gain but "a certain look"? Will 1110d place that bet with his friend's money?
Ron
The corners were supposed to be nailed. Yeah, often hacks didn't, but that's no surprise. Another common problem would be that the siding pieces were cut a half-inch or so too short, leaving the corners with no support. The siding should be cut so the end is flush with the sheathing on the adjacent wall.Properly installed they fit tight and would be very hard to knock loose. And they cheaply and labor-efficiently produce a neat, finished look to the corner.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Gee, I never thought I'd opening myself up to a architectural review by asking where to find a product. Thankfully there are at least a couple of guys that know what I'm looking for and were able to point me in the right direction. I posted a pic of one elevation for you guys to debate over. As you can see, I'm not trying to create a cookie, easy to build home that you typically see today. As for the risk, I know that there is none. The tin corners on my home have been on for 30 years.
Certified boat fetish.
Here's my architectural review: I like it. It is obvious that that house will be no cookie, first because it is obvious that it was designed to suit a particular site, which I find is a rarity in our times. What do the green lines on the chimney side of the roof represent?
Cedar is your best possible choice for the clapboard. Vertical grain board is the best cedar in that wood movement due to changes in moisture content will be minimized. Back prime.
Ron
Thanks for the compliements. Yes it was custom designed for the owners exact wants, needs, and the site. Unfortinatly, it gained squarefootage (by the owners insistance) which has cramped the budget.
I'm not sure which green lines you are refering too. There are some cyan ones on the bedroom dormer in the back ground. There are also some green squares with a X through it, these are the timber frame knee braces.
Certified boat fetish.
1110d,
I was looking at the roof of the bedroom dormer. I don't know what I was thinking it could be.
What kind of boats?
Ron
High performance catamarans. My last one had 600hp and ran over 90mph.
Certified boat fetish.
600 HP!
Gas Turbine?
Holy poop!
I like to sail fast - like maybe 10 12 knots.
Ron
I can make them out of copper which you have the option to paint or leave as is. I did not yet see the locale you are at, but shipping is cheap.
I'd venture that each pc. of hemmed Cu would run about 3.00 each..or less than 5.00..somewhere in that ball park.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Enjoyning the finite of matter, in an infinite realm of possibilities...
Sadly, the finish will be painted, so it would be a shame to make them out of copper. I was actually able to find a source on the west coast out of aluminum for less than a buck a piece.
Do you do much custom work? Years ago I had a ridge roll custom bent for my house, but I've never found the ball finial ends. Sound like a project you'd be interested in? I'd be looking at 5 of them in two different pitches.
Certified boat fetish.
Sure. Send a rendering of what you need.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Nice design, IMHO.
I usually don't comment on these issues, because I am neither an architect nor (any longer) a building professional. But the corner detail that you are speccing is not as unusual, in my experience, as some of the posters seem to think. I've seen it on both bungalow and four-square homes. It seems to be appropriate where the design emphasizes horizontal lines, rather vertical elements.
Unfortunately, I can't help you find the corners. Good luck.
Source for Siding corners of all kind
A company in Portland Oregon has been making this type and many other types of siding corners for 50 years or so.
They still make them and other siding accessories.
They have an informational website:
http://www.simplicitytool.com
and and ecommerce web site where they can be purchased online.
http://www.prosidingaccessories.com.
I reccomend that you go to the http://www.simplicitytool.com website first to determine which type corner you want.
There are several PDF informational documents on each page.
They also have wholesale and retail dealers over much of the U S and Canada.
Call them if you need any further help, 503-253-2000
Cheers and Good Luck,
Omnipotent1
Where to get metal corners
Simplicity Tool Corporation still manufactures aluminum siding corners and accessories. They make corners for cedar siding, hardboard, aluminum, and fiber cement siding. They even started making a vintage corner. Check out there website which also links you to there online store. http://www.simplicitytool.com