Siding-which is greener
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The discussion about ICF vs stick building started me thinking about siding. At some point our 100 year old house needs residing. Someone had put vinyl over the cedar clapboards which are in real rough shape. I had always figured that I would use cement board siding such as Hardie, but the recent discussion makes me wonder which (cement or cedar clapboards) would be the best choice.
The questions that come to mind are: 1) if installed PROPERLY (using a rainscreen wall and backpriming) which is likely to last the longest?
2) Which requires the most maintenance?
3) Which has the most embodied energy over its lifetime?
4) Are there any other options that should be considered?
Thanks for any input.
John
Replies
Also which is more appealing to the occupants - I prefer wood
Hardie, from a distance, looks like wood. It is about as maintenance free as you can get (no such thing as maintenance free, I don't care what anyone says). If you follow the manufacturers installation specs, you can get up to a 50 yr. warranty. Properly flashed, caulked, and painted, you wont spend alot of time outside touching up and re-caulking (if you use the right sealant).
I like cedar too. I think a stained wood siding is the most beautiful thing you can slap on the side of a house. But unlike wood, hardie-planks don't rot, don't burn, don't feed ants and termites (very important around here), and one of my favorets, doesn't split when your trying to nail it up. But once up, both hardie and wood require the same kind of maintenance, wood just requires it a little more because it is less dimensionably stable. I've had hardie on my house for four years. I've had to do alot of re-installation because the original installers either completely ignored the proper specs, or half-assed them. The boards that I put up (I'm up to a little less than half the house) are doing just fine so far. Just my personal opinion, I've got a feeling there will soon be a heated debate.....
Happy New Year!
Do you know how frequently cedar claps that are installed properly need repainting as opposed to Hardie? And what the cost differential of the two materials are?
John
I haven't priced cedar claps in quite awhile. Hardie sells all day for about six dollars a board. Painting would really depend upon your climate. It rains alot here and stays humid. With hardie, your paint job lasts as long as the paint. It could with cedar as well, but there or more factors that are fighting a good paint job (warping, splitting, bleed-through, etc....) I don't think that you could really go wrong with either choice. I don't get to work with cedar nearly as much as I'd like (as in hardly ever). But I have worked with hardie quite a bit and am very comfortable with recommending it to you.Edit: as far as "greenness" hardie is 10% wood fibers and 90% portland cement (at least as of about 3 years ago. I think that they may have changed the ingredients to include "additives"). It also could be the last siding you ever see on that house.
Edited 1/1/2009 9:10 pm ET by arcflash
Why limit the discussion to two options (though I realize those are your two choices)?
Of those two, you all know what my answer is. But I would urge consideration of other wood species for clapboards, such as cypress or radial-sawn spruce. There are houses in New England with radial-sawn spruce claps that are 200 years old.
Also white cedar shingles make an excellent siding - and many people don't even finish them, just let them weather to a silvery gray.
I also recommend acrylic solid-color stains instead of paint. Nice color and UV protection, but it still lets the wood grain show and never needs scraping - just a wash and refinish when it gets dull.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I didn't limit the discussion to those two options, just mentioned them as the two I have considered. My question #4 in the OP was what other options should be considered. And you've given me some good ideas. Can you elaborate on the pros and cons of the choices from the standpoint of cost, durability, ease of maintenace, and "greenness"?
John
Edited 1/1/2009 4:24 pm ET by kiddoc
Depending on the source, white cedar shingles and cypress claps are less expensive than red cedar claps (I don't use HB, so I can't compare pricing). But shingles are more labor-intensive to install.
And, also depending on the source, they can both be more eco-friendly. Cypress is often salvaged from swamps where it's been lying submerged for decades (doesn't rot), but it's a knottier wood than cedar. White cedar comes from northeastern and northwestern forests, so it depends on your location whether it would be a local product.
Radial-sawn spruce claps are available in only a few places - they're sawn on antique machines here in Vermont - but the price is competitive with cedar. You can't get a more stable board than a radial sawn one, though spruce doesn't have the natural rot resistance of cedar or cypress.
If you leave cedar shingles unfinished, then there is very little maintenance (maybe replacing the few which curl too much).
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Of course the look may be completely inappropriate for where you are but I have been using a lot of steel galvalum siding. It is as close as you can get to no maintenance, has great longevity, is completely re-cyclable, and combined with wood trim or complementary wood siding adds an interesting contemporary update a traditional house.
We need pictures, man.Jim, thank you for the offer. It will be quite some time before I get back on it. I'm going to wait for the weather to improve. Until then, I'm going to try to find a local supplier.
I'm on a very slow dial up and have never managed to post any pics. The server just severs the connection. I'd be happy to e-mail you some. If you think they're useful, you could post them.
>> I also recommend acrylic solid-color stains instead of paint. Any particular brand?
I can get California "Storm Stain", 100% acrylic latex, in the matte finish (not their "urethane fortified" version). It's going on clear, vertical grained WRC clapboards, new construction.Do you first use a primer on new wood before applying acrylic stain?
Oil or water based?
Wew! Glad everyone was able to patch things up O.K. Hardie makes a shingle too, by the way. ;)You can see by the pictures that cedar is a wonderful choice. Good job to whoever posted those, that is beautiful house. You can also tell by some of the comments that any wood, even cedar, has longevity issues. But then again, its personal preferance. You will have to live with your decision, so think about it, research them both, and come to a decision that you can live with (quite literally, really).
Re: Cypress siding,
Just a month ago I had to replace siding on the 5 year old addition of a 100 year old farm house in the Philadelphia area. The siding was cypress "german" lap. It was backprimed and painted. On the south facing gable end the siding was horribly cupped and many boards were split. I don't know how long the siding was compromised, but it was long enough that the OSB sheathing was moldy and rotted thru in some areas. Big mess.
On the non-south facing sides the cypress fared much better.
The homeowner decided to replace the removed siding with the factory finished HardiePlank.
I thought there were some issues with it as well. First, at 5/16" thickness it's a bit thin for my taste. Second, I found the edges of the boards pretty "crumbly" and easily damaged. So I would be concerned that in the supposed 50 year life span of this stuff, many a ladder leaning on the house for any kind of maintenance would chip the corners on this stuff. And I can not see an easy way of fixing it, short of replacing the damaged board and necessarily all of the boards above it.
Also, I used the proprietary Hardie diamond blade to cut this stuff. On the long bevel cuts where the siding meets the rake board, the natural blade vibration seemed to delaminate the sharp points on the bevels pretty consistently into three distinct layers. Although I coated the cut ends with the proprietary paint provided and caulked all the gaps pretty good with the caulk provided, I could see the water still finding it's way into the cracks. And after repeated freeze- thaw cycles making the delamination matters worse.
James Hardie makes a beefier version of Hardie plank - "Artisan" series I believe. It's supposed to be a full 5/8" thick with an actual bevel to it. As opposed to a flat original.
I would be interested in trying it out to see if it is more durable, however it is not yet available in Pennsylvania.
So, red cedar still gets my vote of confidence over other siding choices, painted back and front, unless needed to be left clear for design considerations.Alexei.
There is a new product called "Microposite" which is being marketed back east. Does anyone have any experience with it?http://microposite.com/product_overview.htmlJohn
your's is the first i've heard of it... but i'll be watching for itMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Fiber cement shears are just what you need. I've got an old dull pair of Snapper shears I got almost for free because the pawn shop didn't know what they were (heh, heh, heh, stupid pawn shop!) Yes, the stuff is a little difficult to work with at first. It seems really fragile, but you get used to it. I saw a vidoe of someone shooting a 2x4 at it. It made a nice clean 2x4 hole in the siding, but that was it. I've had it on my house for four years. I wouldn't say that it is less durable than vinyl, metal, or wood for that matter.......once it is installed.
A lot of energy goes into creating cement, of course, but over time a lot more paint or stain will go onto the cedar, and even the greenest paints and stains have an environmental cost. Plus the cement siding will probably last 50-100% longer than wood.
And then there is always the North Texas approach -- corrugated metal.Never needs painting and is 100 percent recyclable. <G>
Or the old-time Maineard's approach: barn boards "treated" with used engine oil.
Recycling at it's worst (unless you're into heavy metal).
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
kid..... i've done rgh sawn cedar board & batten
lot's of white cedar shingles
lot's of rc shingles
mahogany claps
red cedar claps
cypress claps..... they were very popular on turn of the century victorians
atlantic white cedar claps.... good material, very stable but no longer available word i got was they were harvesting it in the carolina swamps and got shut down by envirmental concerns
3 different FC claps in 3 different exposures
the cedar has a very short life if left to weather naturally.... like 20 years for wc & 30 years for rc
the cypress is very hard to find in vertical grain.... and the flat sawn cypress loves to twist and deform.... even if painted.... the old cypress came from logs mined from underwater swamp areas.... huge logs.... sunk beneath the water..
apparently today's cypress is not the same clapboard they used 100 years ago
any siding if backprimed and maintained, will last as long as it is maintained, but some sidings ( wc & cypress ) love to twist long after they are installed
given all that .... my first choice for low maintenance, and esthetic appearance , is fiber cement.... and my trim chice is Miratech, with some special situations getting Azek.... or an Azek competitorMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
the cedar has a very short life if left to weather naturally.... like 20 years for wc
That's cuz you're using "swamp cedar" instead of northern white cedar, which is sustainably harvested and superior to red cedar in almost every way.
Eastern white cedar is ideal for both interior and exterior construction because it is naturally durable and resistant to moisture, decay and insect damage. It accepts stain and paint more uniformly than western red cedar, and it resists mold and rot naturally. <!----><!----><!---->
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For the energy-wise, white cedar has a unique cell structure that traps tiny pockets of air to boost insulation and reduce home heating costs. <!----><!---->
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Eastern white cedar has exceptional dimensional stability. It lays flat, stays straight and retains fasteners. It has an even grain, fine texture and the lowest density of any commercial domestic wood. <!----><!---->
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Properly pre-finished and installed, white cedar should be the last siding any home will ever need. There are examples all over the world of white cedar shingles lasting well over 100 years. <!----><!---->
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Eastern white cedar shingles offer numerous comparative advantages over western red cedar<!----><!---->
Differences between Eastern White cedar and Western Red Cedar<!----><!---->
Eastern White Cedar<!----><!---->
VS.<!----><!---->
Western Red Cedar<!----><!---->
Strong, resilient fibrous quality.<!----><!---->
Tensile Quality<!----><!---->
Strong, yet brittle fibrous quality.<!----><!---->
Less brittle, less likely to split or crack.<!----><!---->
Tensile Quality<!----><!---->
Splits easily, particularly during installation.<!----><!---->
Resists decay better than any other species, except cypress. Eastern white cedar shingles frequently last over 100 years.<!----><!---->
Longevity<!----><!---->
General decay-resistant life expectancy is 35 years, at best.<!----><!---->
Remains stable even flat sawn. Eastern white cedar, at all grades, will not cup or curl.<!----><!---->
Stability<!----><!---->
Requires vertical grain cutting to resist warping and cupping. Western red cedar at #2 grade and lower is always flat sawn, and subject to cupping.<!----><!---->
Accepts stain and paint evenly with superior penetration and without blotching. Excellent absorption and penetration of chemical fire retardant.<!----><!---->
Absorption<!----><!---->
Resistant to stain and paint. Exhibits blotches and streaks. Potential for uneven absorption and limited penetration of chemical fire retardant.<!----><!---->
Left untreated, eastern white cedar will acquire a silver-grey patina within five years.<!----><!---->
Maintenance Characteristics <!----><!---->
Left untreated, western red cedar will acquire an uneven, blackened appearance within five years.<!----><!---->
Produced from sustainable forest resources (35- to 70-year cycle).<!----><!---->
Ecological Sustainability<!----><!---->
Produced from diminished, non-renewable old growth forests.<!----><!---->
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Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
"Remains stable even flat sawn. Eastern white cedar, at all grades, will not cup or curl."I guess they have a different standard for stability.
Edited 1/1/2009 10:37 pm ET by MVAgusta
Well, that chart was lifted from here. I like cedar, but went with hardi on my house for various already mentioned reasons.http://www.truenorthcedar.com/about.html
man.... you rsfos
all my cedar comes from canada and the PNW
only the atlantic wc claps came frm carolina.... and that was a very superior wood
whadda ya think ?
i just fell off the turnip truck ?
i started with wc.... and it was ALL northern
further.... with wc the only grade we use is blue label Extras..
wc on sidewalls will have areas that need replacing within 20 years...
rc #1....within 30 years
this will be due to erosion of the wood fibers to where there is nothing left, just below the butt line of the shingle above, they will be as thin as a potato chip
also.... wc , even at the correct exposure, and properly fastened will not lie flat they will cup and curl...especially on the southern exposures after rain and heavy dew
then they will more or less lay down again
i always research my siding... i don't just take what they are selling.... why don't you admit that your experience is no more than lot's of others on this board instead of acting like a jerk
so take your attitude and get back to me...
and please.... spare me the reprint from the shingle mfr's
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You sure do get your dander up.
White cedar shingles are the standard on Cape Cod - in fact they pretty much define a traditional cape. And many have had their siding for well over a hundred years.
Sure, some of the shingles will curl, but for many people that's part of the charm.
The last shingle house I did we had one curled shingle on the entire place. And those were second clears.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
why did u post that dumb comparison btween wc & rc... it was close to useless and completely wrong in some of it's claims
i nget my dander up because you post stupid things at times
igrew up knowing all about Cape Cod and wc
i came of age when wc were the rage
i cut my teeth on wc
they are a huge disappointment to most users
they do curl on the south side
and they are subject to the same uneven weathering patterns that rc's are
one reason the Cape Cod house had fairly uniform weathering is because a tradtional cape has no overhang, thus no shading..... and the continual salt spray helped too
i know quite a bit about CC, i lived and worked in P'town for 3 years
if you want to duplicate the nice soft grey, you have to help nature out with a combination of silver grey stains and weathering stains
but the average person is going to be sorry the did't go with rc
and they will be surprised to find that neither siding fares very well in an untreated state
pretty nice details...
View Image
but i would never do a woven corner with wc.... and i notice the older portion is stained or painted
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/1/2009 11:43 pm ET by MikeSmith
why did u post that dumb comparison btween wc & rc... it was close to useless and completely wrong in some of it's claims...i nget my dander up because you post stupid things at times
Oh, come on. I hardly ever post stupid things. And most of what they claimed is reasonably accurate.
That was clearly the industry line, and I posted it to be as provocative as you were being by claiming that white cedar shingles have a life-span of 20 years.
they are a huge disappointment to most users...they do curl on the south side and they are subject to the same uneven weathering patterns that rc's are
Yes, they can curl and yes they can weather unevenly (people didn't used to care, they weren't as vain about their houses back when), but they can also be a very beautiful and durable natural siding, with or without stain or bleaching oils.
i know quite a bit about CC, i lived and worked in P'town for 3 years
I hung out in P-town back in the early 70s.
pretty nice details...
Thanks. Can't claim responsibility for the design - a cooky old architect who was looking over our shoulders all the time was the designer - but I did much of the exterior work.
but i would never do a woven corner with wc.... and i notice the older portion is stained or painted
Why not woven corners? I used a pin-nailer in places to keep them tight to the perpendicular shingle. It's the classic style.
I haven't done a lot of WC shingles, but I haven't had the problems you're talking about. I like RC claps as well, or radial-sawn spruce, but WC shingles are hard to beat for beauty.
I would have put some stain on them, but the owner didn't want it, except (ironically) inside the protected porches. And he didn't want to strip and reshingle the existing building, so it remains to show the history of the place.
That house was originally a two-story, jacked up and had the first (rotten) story removed and dropped back onto the foundation, then a new second story was added, and four years ago the current renovations, including a third story (formerly attic) pop-up kitchen and loft. The two pop-up sections have 10° sloping walls (which got quickly stained by roof runoff).
The tapered octagonal tower was added for a circular staircase to the second floor apartment where the owners of the art gallery live. The rear gable, in the loft area, has a 5' diameter "ocular" window to match the front circular theme.
I got to rebuild the brick chimney to the architect's specs and made some built-in cubbies for the yarn store.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Was it his cooky design to have a different exposure on the untreated shingles and to purposely not line them up.
At least everyone will know its an addition.
Was it his cooky design to have a different exposure on the untreated shingles and to purposely not line them up.
Primarily because the existing wall was out of plumb and the architect and owner decided it would be too difficult to match the new front section to the old with the circles and arches.
I questioned that too.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
robert
in the early "70's i was the supt on the breakwater job off MacMillan Wharf.... our office was on the first floor of the fish plant.... the Harbor Master , Pidge Carter, had his office right above us
this is very pretty...
View Image
but i would never do woven corners with wc, not stable enough
and i haven't pinned my corners for the last 20 years or so...
every corner i've ever seen that was pinned , is split.... and has little chunks missing..
we used to pin rc corners with hd galv 4d finish nails, at least they didn't rust... but they always split...... AFTER the fact
now we do our woven corners by selecting shingles that have a complimentary grain ( more parallel to the curve than vertical )....and we always install them with the concave out, so the more they curl, the more they clamp
i bet if you go back and look at the corners of that beautiful job, you will find lot's of splits
also.... on the large circle window......does the trim cover the shingle tops ?... or do the shingle tops just butt?
we've developed ( or probably stole from somebody else ) a habit of truncating all our butts at 1 1/2" because the little tiny points always like to break off and then fall out
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
the history of the housing stock around here is pretty well dominated by shingle-style victorian
which was always RC.... sometimes painted ( the houses become known by their colors ...."the red house".... or "green chimnys" )
but usually they were left natural......
after the Depression..... thru WWII....thru the '50's.... all the way thru the '70's....there was no money in this area.....so a lot of maintenace never got done.... lot's of victorian trim and shingle detail got ripped off and eaves were cut back... to make do
shingles were patched, and carpenters had to become proficient in theiving and replacing
wc's were for the poor people... and the craze for the Cape Cod look swept New England .... weathered grey shingles were everywhere
our first house was wc, with corner boards... and the reason i married Helen is because she could sidewall shingle (and her Dad made great fried chicken )
when the money started arriving in the '80's.... Red Cedar shingles came back with the money...... and most high end houses had rc....always left natural
most of those rc siding jobs are being replaced now... there is nothing left.... they have worn right thru from the wind, rain, sun, freeze-thaw... so...that is 30 years (or less)
the wc siding of the '70's.... was replaced in the '90's.... again... because you could see thru the shingles... they had holes worn in them... there was nothing wrong with the installation... it was just the nature of the material
most of the claims for longer life are not true....red cedar is not old growth red cedar ...... and wc was never a long lived siding anyways...
they are both beautiful siding materials, but neither , left alone, is long lived
the "red house" was recently bought and remodeled.... part of the job was replacing the rc shingles..... so.... that house dates from the late 1800's... the rc shingles were, for the most part...original.... more than 100 years.... but that is because they were painted... and they had good detailing to keep them from premature rot from water intrusion
me....i'll use FC claps, with factory finish and a field overcoat.... 2d choice would be FC shingles....if that's the look you want
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I used to make a lot of outdoor furniture out of cypress, and apparently it's not all the same. The way I got it, red cypress is the tough stuff, and it's not readily available. The yellow cypress is pretty squirrelly, and shows major shrinkage, especially when used as siding, unless it's quarter sawn, fully primed, and painted. Even then, it's still hard to work with. We just finished a remodel of 6" beveled claps w/ mitered corners. Major cuppage, even with prep.Anyway, on to the Atlantic white cedar... the mill/supplier I got cypress from, also made wc siding/shingles/shakes... Occasionally, I would get some wc planks thrown in with the cypress. Not a problem , weathers like cypress, smells good... but some of it rotted. Turns out it wasn't wc, but juniper, which grows along with the wc, and looks and smells like wc. Maybe more of that got into the siding bundles as the wc got harder to find?Me, I'll stick with good old T-111...http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
"Major cuppage..."
Wasn't she on M*A*S*H* ?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
no , you're thinking of Major Catastophe... major cuppage is a finesse kinda thing. Experience is best in these matters, call me to find a class opening in the TodayAway School. It's not cheap, but then neither are our prospects...http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
but i would never do woven corners with wc, not stable enough and i haven't pinned my corners for the last 20 years or so... every corner i've ever seen that was pinned , is split.... and has little chunks missing..
Maybe it's weather exposure differences, but I just haven't had any of the problems you're describing.
we used to pin rc corners with hd galv 4d finish nails, at least they didn't rust... but they always split...... AFTER the factm...i bet if you go back and look at the corners of that beautiful job, you will find lot's of splits
4d nails are 0.080" diameter. I used 18g brads which are 0.048" diameter. I've been by the "Hobbit House" now four years later and there are no splits or curls.
also.... on the large circle window......does the trim cover the shingle tops ?... or do the shingle tops just butt?
The circular trim was installed and painted first, flashed on the top half, and the each shingle bandsawn to the radius, butted and siliconed.
we've developed ( or probably stole from somebody else ) a habit of truncating all our butts at 1 1/2" because the little tiny points always like to break off and then fall out
That wouldn't have gotten past the architect - or the owner, for that matter - or even any of the carpenters. It would have ruined the clean look of the circles and arches.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
nah.... they would have loved it..... once you start truncating the points, you never go backMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's how the shingle guys do all the rakes, etc. in the Bay Area.John
i'm guessing San Francisco Bay area
as opposed to Massachusetts Bay Area
or Narragansett Bay Area
or Chesapeke Bay Area ?
am i right ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's right. And I thought there was only one. Makes me a regionalist I guess.John
I question the longevity of fiber cement in many instances because I believe people will get tired of it.
Asbestos siding was similar - lasted and lasted ( except where it got hit by something hard and chipped). But how many people have ripped off or gone over "good" asbestos with vinyl or some other siding because it looked old and dated. FC will be the same in twenty years. Even if it really would last for 50 years, I'd bet that 90% will be gone long before that.
I personally love wood siding, whether shingles or lap. I question whether we as a country can generate enough to keep using it. Around here, I see logging going on almost weekly. Lots of trees coming down, some replanted, not enough. too much of it gets wasted.
Maybe the metal is the way to go.
Isn't most asbestos siding the large shingles with 10-12" exposure?When I think of asbestos siding, that's what comes to mind. I can see why people would tire of that, but FC lap siding with a 6" exposure- that's a pretty classic look. Maybe not the look that people will want in 50 years, but I think it has a chance.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yup, asbestos shingles were larger exposure. But some had "shingle" designs in them. Some even had (IIRC) staggered bottoms to look like wood shingles.
They were popular for a few years, so I guess they did appeal to some people - especially builders.
Your perspective of the FC as a more "timeless" look is one that I appreciate, but it is not the same one that appeals to so many people any more. Now, they don't want timeless; they want today's contemporary look. They want lower upkeep. some are interested in saving energy or being green.
I think in 50 years, someone will have invented some fancy new thing to take the place of FC; who knows what it will be. Actually, with the way new stuff keeps getting created, I'd almost bet that it won't be half that time.
Keep in touch and we'll have this discussion again, then. :-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
> they want today's contemporary lookWhich is, based on the McMansions they put up around here, a bastardized Cape with lap siding.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
asbestos siding was a child of it's time..... as you said.... on most homes that it was installed on.... it's still there until they rip it off
binally , it was ugly ... FC is notut....it's not the same as FC.... it is, first of all .... asbestos
2d it was a product that didn't represent anything .... the exposure is normally 10"
nothing else has a 10" exposure
it is only 1/8" thick... so no definition
it was brittle and very easy to damage
none of those things are true of FC
and fMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Jeff Buck at your house drinking and typing?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I wasn't crazy about the Hardie shingles, too thin, so there wasn't a realistic shadowline, but these are a different story. http://www.nichiha.com/prod_sierrapremium.htmHere's some shots I found on another websitehttp://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0322045013624.htmlEven the taper at the base of the wall looks kinda close.
interesting links.... Nichea is available here alsoi did have to grit my teeth when some of the garden web posters kept referring to "shingles" as "shakes"Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Priced it out for my old dump, $390 a square with the green stain.
which product did you price ?and how are they doing the woven corners ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I got a quote on the shingle panels, but I don't have a clue on how they weave the corners, I'm thinking my favorite green Craftsman block plane wouldn't be much use though.OK, found this link: http://www.fourseasonsroofingandsiding.com/Nichiha.Fibercement.Shakes.htm
Edited 1/3/2009 8:27 pm ET by MVAgusta
Nice! I've been seeing some trim on a commercial job I'm at that looks suspiciously like that! I was under the impression that you couldn't stain FC. That last poster could be right, one day not too soon FC could be going the way of the dinosaur. But I'll tell you what, lately it's the only thing I've seen on commercial work around here. I don't think asbestos shingles ever got big on these "resi-mmercial" jobs like FC is.
staining FC has been around for quite a while.... you can get it factory stained
blodgett has done some in the field tooMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Tell me more about this stain of which you speak! As in, what stain is it?
i forget... but i do remember that i had sample boards from some mfr.
and Jim Blodgett seemed to really be into it.... seems like two years ago or soMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
After reading all the posts in this thread, I still have a lot of questions about wood vs fibercement. Obviously fibercement has more EE than wood initially. The advantages touted are longevity and needing painting less often. But if wood is installed well, with backpriming and installed on a rainscreen so that the back of it can dry properly, what is the real difference? How frequently does each product need to be repainted? And if properly maintained, can wood last as long as fibercement?
John
i have two spec houses two blocks from here that i built in '75 - '76
they had western red cedar clapboards CAVG.... all primed on site inside on racks with a spray gun..... probably oil based primer ( who can remember )... primed all 6 sides
then they had two coats SW A-100
the trim was pine.... but was PROBABLY not back primed..... who knew in those days ?
anyways... i took a ride and asked the owner if i could take some pics... here they are 1/3/2009...... 33 years later
here's the front... due North, because this was a solar house
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if you look close, the paint is perfect ( original paint ) on the clapboards.... the trim, not so good
if it was washed , the mildew would disappear ( not pressure washed )
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neither owner was much on maintaining their homes.. here's the original WC shingles..... that one is about 1/16" thick right under the butt... they should have been replaced about 10 years ago
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last year the owner called me and said his Kalwall covers were ripped... it would have cost about $15K to replace the covers.... so he had the 14' x 36' copper collectors removed and the old GAF Timberline replaced
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this was when copper was about $3/ lb... i asked him how much the roofer gave him for the copper... he said " what ? "
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
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Edited 1/3/2009 2:40 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/3/2009 2:42 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/3/2009 2:47 pm ET by MikeSmith
right next door was the control house i built to demonstrate the difference between a well insulated house and a solar house... both had 2x6 walls , R-19 fiberglass
and probably 9" fiberglass in the attics
the windows were single-glazed Crestlines with aluminum storms
this house was 3-tab black asphalt roof... redone last year
and the south gable was reshingled last year... but it was way past due on both of those ( the roofing and the wc sidewall )
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the blue paint is the original... if i see the owner i'll get some details from him and some closeups
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so..... attention to detail will keep wood siding pretty well.... this is not on any rain-screen... just 15# felt
if i had used Miratech trim , instead of pine... or even if i had backprimed it.. the trim would be in better shape
also .. i learned some things about NOT letting wood siding or wood trim touch a roof or a horizontal surface
me... i still intend to use FC and Miratech.... but give the devil his due... this wood siding and it's paint job held up pretty good
my customers .. i tell them to expect 6 years from a paint job on wood ... and 12 years on FC
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/3/2009 2:54 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/3/2009 2:59 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks for the info
John
Gives me hope that this one won't need repainting til I'm dead....
#30 felt, rainscreen, fc laps, SW Super. Who cares about embedded energy when it's their a$$ hanging on the roof?
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A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
boy, hackin.... that is some nise detailing.... those are Hatteras , right ?
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and a nice space under the watertable on the dormer...
i like everything i see here
where's the kids ?
i would think there'd be one on the ladder following dad around
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks, Mike. They are Hatteras.... I wanna be gone before they are, too. The detailing is just what's on the Hardie and Certainteed installation pages... nothing new or exciting. Just a bit of reading and attention.
It seems to me that everyone in this discussion has a different definition of "green".....
mine is "any siding material that, once properly installed/detailed, requires zero ladder time for the longest possible term."
The kids have many, many more interesting things to do than hang with dad on these various escapades...
as it should be.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Your dormer should be included with the factory specs as an example of exactly what to do! Nice and clean, looks really good.Break down that rainscreen for me, is it just furring, or is there any other details that you came across that were unexpected?
Thanks for the kind words, but really, this ain't rocket science. It's just requires following directions.
I developed a simple, cheap and easy way to make a rainscreen. My method is an attempt to solve a ladybug issue and keep the paint on those dormers. The bugs were wintering behind our siding and making their way into the house. Smelly, aggravating, and the asian variety bites.
Cut #30 felt into 1.5" strips. Apply 3 strips, vertically, to each stud after covering the sheathing with #30 felt. These are your firring strips (and nailing guides) and step the siding away from the tarpaper... forming a very narrow gap that allows any moisture out, keeps the bugs out and allows a small amount of airflow behind the siding to facilitate drying. It also equalizes pressure on front and back of the siding to prevent the paint from being driven off from behind.
I don't know whether the color change, tar paper, for felt firring strips are the reason.... but the bugs are all but gone and everything else seems to be holding up pretty well after a few years.
Here's how it looked before the FC, redwood corners (salvaged) and Miratec rake boards.
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Before the changes:
View ImageA La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Truthfully, the answer is...........(ready for it?).........it depends. A rainscreen wall is a good idea, regardless of which type of clapboards you do finally decide to install. Cedar would be the best choice in natural siding (the best cedar is still under debate). Mike's pictures demonstrate that cedar does have quite a bit of longevity. If that is indeed the original paint job, than 33 years is impressive. Fiber cement is relatively new to the market in its current form (I believe versions of it have been around for several decades). I guess the bottom line is, if properly installed and maintained, you can get a long time out of just about any siding.The rest is just a question of taste. I don't like the look of weathered cedar shingles, but I think that they are beautiful new or stained every couple years (that would make them a high maintenance siding). Shingles can look good painted, depending on color choice and trim (some of the old victorians around here have about ten colors but are marvelous to look at). If you install either correctly it comes down to your paint choice rather than your siding.
Thanks,
John
Try this link http://www.superdeck.com/masonsselect/6700spec.htm. I think it will get you to the website.We used it on our own house a few years ago, then again last summer on a customer's house. Just follow the directions on the jug, extremely user friendly.I like it a lot. We get a ton of compliments and questions about it from people in the trades - which I consider high praise. I have a few photos, but the photos on the website depict it accurately. Let me know if you want more and I'll see what's on my hard drive - I'm on my laptop right now.
That is what I'm talking about! Thank you!Wow, the wife had already picked out the colors for the painting I'm doing outside this spring. I'm almost afraid to tell her that I changed my mind, we're going for the wood look. Can I apply this stuff over a previously painted surface? If so, outside of normal preperations, what else do I need? The current paint is a white egg-shell (maybe, I do know that it is low-sheen). How do I get from that to superdeck?
Better check with the manufacturer. We used it both times on new siding. You might run into adhesion issues.
We pumped it on while the siding lay flat on a rack. That's pretty important because the label says to apply it in a "flood coat" and not back brush it or try to even it out on the surface of the siding. We used it on woodgrained (not smooth) siding and since liquids seek their own level the material pools in the low spots between grainlines which enhances the grain, accentuiates the shadowlines within each plank.
Another important detail is to let each coat dry out of direct sunlight or you invite what I think they call "alligatoring" - or tons of little interconnecting cracks in the surface of the stain, like the skin of an alligator.
Another thing I would mention is if you use different types of siding, you might need different stain mixtures on each type. We used lap on the lower sections of our house, and fibercement sidewall shingles on the gables and dormer. The lap comes with a factory applied primer but the shingles do not. We used a 1:1 mixture of two colors on the lap, and a pure color for the shingles to get close to a matching color.
But I'm not much of a painter. I'm sure you'll do a better job than we did.
Let me see what photos I have here...
Hack, I've never seen felt used like that, but I like it. The siding that I've had to re-do, I didn't use a rainscreen because I was going sections at a time, not all at once. I re-used as much as the original boards as I could. I like your approach because now I can incorparate the rainscreen on the remaining sections, and not have the new sections at a very noticabley different plane. Good on you, and I like your flashing details, you sure you don't do this every day?Jim, you just applied the stain over the factory primer? If so, it seems that I could just apply a primer, then stain coat over that. I have smooth hardie. Can the stain be effectively used over it with similar results? I will be spraying. I'd like to put those shingles on both gable ends, and stain them green. I think what I might do is just paint the planks, and stain the shingles, if the stain won't work for smooth planks. I'd like to mention that that project of yours is stunning. You just totally got my gears spinning with new ideas.I really hope this helps the original poster, 'cause its sure helping me!Edited 1/4/2009 12:41 pm ET by arcflash
Edited 1/4/2009 12:42 pm ET by arcflash
"Jim, you just applied the stain over the factory primer?"
Yeah. A small airless works fine. We have even used a small HVLP to spray a couple planks for retrofit work. The material is pretty thin, waterbased.
"Can the stain be effectively used over it with similar results?"
I don't know. I have my doubts, but I don't want to discourage you from trying. I'd reccommend getting some samples from a local supplier (I am pretty sure I requested samples directly from the manufacturer and in those days (maybe 7 or 8 years ago) they only made 4 colors of that product. They UPSed me small (maybe 4 oz) cans of each which I experimented with. Once I decided on the colors I wanted to use I asked at my local lumberyard and they got me the product promptly.
If you really get stuck, let me know. I could send you some to experiment with. It really would be better to find a chain of supply, though. That way you'll be able to purchase/order/reorder whatever you decide you want.
Our area is full of poor flashing, terrible wrap details and worse siding..... I prefer to think about what 50 years means to my work. I hope that someday, far into the future, someone will see the paint up close and say, "Well, I'll be danged" and think a little "thanks".
Few people find the expense of proper technique a value when compared to vinyl siding "Cover-up" considering our relatively mild climate. It's a shame to consider the ramifications for future owners, but everyone deals with home repair issues in what they consider to be the best for their situation. They're not bad people, or even wrong, just different in what they believe is important.
Make good use of it and I hope it never fails you. It's small payment for all the advice I've taken from this forum.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Some just want to make a profit. They buy forclosed properties, add a little lipstick and paint, then rent or sell. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money, I do it every chance I get, but I've seen some houses that had vinyl over the worst water damage I've ever seen in my life. It was obviously a cover-up and the only thing holding up the house was some poor fellow's half-assed attempt at a fix years and years ago. What would have happened if the house fell and killed someone? Who would have been responsible?I'm like you. I wan't someone to be taking my house apart many years after I'm gone and say "this guy was way ahead of his time". Nothing I do gives me a better feeling than that.
The asbestos shingles looked like carp when new, and the deep grooves in most styles collected dirt. Every time they were painted the oil paint would build up in the grooves in globs. Plus, since they were so brittle, you often had a number of broken corners. And painted shingles look like carp regardless, even if wood.Fiber cement is indistinguishable from wood at any distance (aside from the thinner profile and reduced shadow line). The one thing I don't know about is any tendency to crack over time.Metal siding eventually needs painting, of course. It can be painted nearly as well as wood or FC, but not quite. And it dents. Plus the joints often look like carp. And finally there's the problem with metal and vinyl that it's not a weather-tight surface.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
FWIW, I lived on the cape off and on over a few decades, and had house with untreated/unpainted/unstained white cedar.I love the stuff.But I've seen enough of Mike's experience and know enough about him that were I having to make the decision, I'd go with what he says.BTW, 25-30 years ago, Judge Bent in the NE kingdom bought an antique cedar saying machine. What a beast! (Made the bloodiest slasher horror film villains look like Mary Poppins<G>.) I have no idea if he still has it.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
So Mike, the cedar shingles I just put on my house will only last 20 years?
Durn, that means I will have to stain them. The originals lasted 130 years!
white cedar ?...... yes.... not all of them ,, but there will be portions that will not exist in 20 years if you stain them..... or paint them , then they will last pretty much forever... the stain
and / or paint becomes the weatherable surface which you can replace
unprotected siding , especially shingles, & shakes.... dissappears slowly but surely, by erosionthis is accelerated on the south side of most housesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
those two comparisons you posted are a
C R O C KMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
http://www.truenorthcedar.com/about.html
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
wood if installed properly will need regular painting and chaulking.. while wood has a low EE paint is directly the opposite. 100 years of paint is hundreds of gallons of EE plus the labor required to apply it and strip it..
Look instead towards something that provides low maintinace and relively low EE
Stone!
It's not very hard to do good stone work. Look at my home, that was my first attempt at masonary work and I am very pleased with it.
Stone can be either purchased or gathered.. The cost of gathering is minimal depending on your location farmers may have rock piles someplace where they will be happy to let you have all you want , deliever massive amounts for a nominal amount or sell at a reasonable price..
Minnesota and other lake country is the exception. Field stone is commonly used as rip rap on our thousands of lakes..
Are there any other options that should be considered
Ya wanna be green or just 'yuppie green' ?
The only 2 'true green' mentioned so far are recycled corrugated metal and the maineard used motor oil on old wood.
Old car hoods and roofs that you have driven the dozer over to flatten make good siding (and roofs) also. '3rd world' condos often have old 5 gal can siding and roofs.