hello breaktimers,
I just saw a thread about how awful this forum is…
personally, I think it is a rare gift…
anyway…I need some help with my business/life plan.
I’m the shy guy in the corner of the woodshed tavern-having a quick expresso to get back into the game at lunch …looking over my go list or like tonight, having a couple Molson
and …deciding to talk to the guy on the stool next to me…
Ya know,
I’ve still not totally comfortable with the “internet” but I have come to trust this place and I think it’s time to open up a bit…I play most of the time with my cards close to my chest…old habit.
I’m 57 and in a semi panic…we don’t have any money saved for retirement…so now it’s time for me to really dig in and make some serious coin…
I look around and I see my family has grown into fine young folks that I’m proud to know…and that I resisted the tempation to go to Victoria B.C. and start all over again…that was close though…I shut down my business and friends were expecting me.
That’s a few years back…before my 2 daughters decided to turn this farm into their business…and that’s one thing that has kept us busy the last decade…getting them set up.
Anyway-I’m looking around and thinking
shoulda coulda woulda
I have been flying without a plan for too may years now and as we know
failing to plan to planning to fail.
I had a salesman from Combined Insurance stop by out of the blue and I quickly went down the road of-hey I’ll sell disability insurance in my spare time-plan b…the most wonderful thing of being over 50 is… what you had to do when you were younger, now you can just try on the clothes…and I said-yeah the brain says go but the gut says no…
I’m tearing around Ho Depot this week and and on a whim decide to look over the cabinets and I see a sign-we apologize but we are unable to offer installations at this time.
Hmm-I says-opportunity…so I end up talking to the zone manager, easily impress him and he sends me an email to set me up as an installer.
So- I ask myself-how does this fit…you know…into the plan?
The plan:
I have a good reputation but I think my best bet is to to expand what I do…
I plan to sell my company’s unique skill sets at the highest possible price
I plan to specialize in
interior renovations
kitchens and bathrooms
interior and exterior handrails
and
interior and exterior wood door sales and installation
Stick to what you know
Although I have extensive training in cabinet making and fine wood working, I haven’t done any kitchens for quite a while.
My wife is my business partner and we are thinking of installing the kitchens for ho depot to tune up our kitchen mojo. They say they’ll have 4 installs a month so it wouldn’t take long…
I am too old to be stupid…way too old…so as we’re thinking this weekend I thought I would toss this out for some wisdom…
And I’ve read consumeraffairs.com and the complaints about HD go on and on…I would hate to get tarred with that brush.
I think I have a better plan…I know someone who had their own cabinet shop who now works out of a local lumber yard. He has a good reputation. I thought I would try to partner with him and when I sell a total kitchen package, I could take advantage of his experience…a win/win situation…
funny when you put it like that it seems like a no brainer…
I’m still going to take a chance and post this..I’ve learned some awesome stuff of this site and I’m a better man today because of it…
thanks to everyone for making this one of the best forums on the web…still
silver
Replies
I've known a couple guys who did this, and made some pretty "serious coin". Gotta get in, get out, wham bam thank you ma'am. Most of the work will be below your normal standards, but good enough to satisfy the uneducated public.
It doesn't appeal to me, but as the economy deteriorates, maybe it does, come to think of it. Good on yer for jumping on opportunity when it knocked. Wish you the best, let us know how it turns out. Another couple weeks of the business doldrums, and maybe I'll be following in your footsteps!
That's what we're thinking Huck...wham bam...and that we could train a crew to do these and have one aspect of our business on auto pilot.Thanks,silver
I'm 57 and in a semi panic
That sounds like a lot of carpenters that I've known. Very few have much of anything at age 57 and their abilities and bodies are slipping away.
In these "golden" years, we are supposed to be smarter and the earnings of the wealthy escalate in these years. It works the opposite for carpenters.
I know I've been preaching to deaf ears but I think the younsters (30 and up) should take heed of your situation. They'll be here soon enough.
Now, looking back, could you tell us what you did wrong? I know I can. It's simple: I never built a business that I could sell to someone else. I never built an income stream that wasn't dependent on me and my skills.
I chose framing because I loved it. I loved doing the big customs and the small production homes. But, it really wasn't a business. I can honestly say that I rarely made a 40% gross proft and without that as a starting point, I can safely assert that I was involved in a hobby for 30 years.
It's not too late to wake up and start charging properly for your time and effort. 40% should be the minimum you are shooting for.
Jim-
I know we disagree on what is a business, but I never planned on selling mine. I have been able to put away quite a bit of $ for a decent retirement, plus I plan on keeping working (probably doing handyman-type stuff) for as long as I can, if I feel like it.
What's hurt me is the stock market crash, but since I don't plan on really retiring for another 10 years or so, I'm not that concerned (yet).
I do agree about the mark-up. We shouldn't be giving our skills and knowledge away.
shep--- I didn't wantto overlook your post---all the way back at post #4. I never plan or planned on developing my business into a saleable entity. It's simply somnething I do--- to make money---and the money I make from it I invest in other things. I never figured i was gonna get rich--an I am not I am 46-- I semi retired on 7-2-08 as recently as 10 months ago I was looking at the eventuality of endowing 2 minor scholarships THOSE got put waaaaay on the back burner as events unfolded in the markets last fall and last winter---and I figured maybe I better "un-semi-retire", LOL so I bought all the way down---and as events unfolded this spring--- I am feeling much better about that possible scholarship endowment. i never figured I would get rich--and I am not--- but figuring I wasn't gonna be rich--meant that I had to put something away out of EVERY roof, EVERY porch floor, EVERY set of basemant stairs, EVERY spouting project I never want my business to be a saleable entity--and I absolutely think it is disasterously wrong for people in the trades to even contemplate that THEIR business will be saleable---- the odds are SO STACKED AGAINST IT----and it prevents you from making good long term decisions. how many guys to we all know------- that have a tool buying addiction that they camaflage as " investing in my business'--- or "working on my business" Pony had a good phrase in one of his posts- MIP---- Money in pocket this project will yield this MIP--- now what are you going to do with it???? gotta run,
stephen
Stephen-
IMO, the biggest problem with selling a business like you or I have is that WE are the ones the customer wants to deal with. We could sell the equipment, trucks, and a customer list, but I think the real value in our companies is the trust we've earned from our clients over the years. And that can't be transfered to someone else.
The stock market crash has hurt me too. We had quite a considerable sum invested there. But not any more. I'm still hopeful, and pretty confident, that it'll rebound.
I don't work as hard as I used to. DW and I have pretty much everything we want, so earning money just for the sake of having "more" makes no sense to me.
Thanks Jim,I've always tried to apply what you were preaching about...And I'm only in a semi panic... because I know I will think this through and regroup. Armed with wisdom and knowledge, I'm confident I can do a lot in a short period of time...and I'm a late bloomer to boot. "Now, looking back, could you tell us what you did wrong? "
"I don't have a business that I can sell to someone else.
I never built an income stream that wasn't dependent on me and my skills." I agree with you.My wife and I try to do all the work ourselves...and
I wasn't charging enough. However, that changed as I read BT and I started adding 35% and now use a 50% markup most of the time... I chose custom work and it's labour intensive...some problems can easily eat into the profit margin... And we also invested heavily in the farm...instead of banking money, we built a hayshed, a barn,4 generations of fencing including high end electric fences, a horse trailer,bought some horses.We are mentoring our daughter's and they are developing a business plan and working on getting some grants...so our investment in the farm and their business may pay dividends in the future."It's not too late to wake up and start charging properly for your time and effort. 40% should be the minimum you are shooting for."Right on and I'm with you on this one. I worked hard but I didn't pay enough attention to the business side of things. Now I know I make my money in the office. Learning excel was a huge advantage and now I work the numbers until I'm satisfied all my costs are covered and I've added 50%. Given what I know now, I am going to put together an actual business plan.I'm thinking of marketing more aggressively so I have more and better leads.And I'm thinking of hiring some help...that a huge step for me...
It didn't work out well in the past but it may be what I have to do.silver
"It's not too late to wake up and start charging properly for your time and effort. 40% should be the minimum you are shooting for."
Right on and I'm with you on this one. I worked hard but I didn't pay enough attention to the business side of things. Now I know I make my money in the office. Learning excel was a huge advantage and now I work the numbers until I'm satisfied all my costs are covered and I've added 50%.
I don't think I explained myself clear enough. I'll try again.
When you add only 50% to your costs, you are only getting a 33% gross profit return. You should be shooting for 40% gross profit return. To accomplish that, you should take your costs and divide them by .6. That will give you your selling number. So, if you have $100 in costs, your selling price will be $166.66 Now...I'm serious about this: don't lose that 66 cents! Get every penny of your goal!
Don't be afraid to lose jobs by asking for your full retail price. If you don't get the job when you give them their quote, find out why. Sometimes, lowering the price will get you that job, other times it won't. The worst thing you can do is to give a discounted price and then get the job without a battle.
Thanks for the tuneup, Jim...yes I lost something in the translation...costs divided by .6 ok and I've already been shocking customers with my prices...I have been marking up material/subs 25%
and all labour costs 50%you're saying take the job cost and divide by .6 and sell it.I am putting together a marketing plan as I regroup so I can attract more leads and have a larger base to sell to...the bank of Canada officially announced the end of the recession yesterday. True or not, that will give most folks confidence to spend money and renovate. As it is, I rarely discount a job...I don't want to leave any money on the table...However,I think that is one of the biggest mistakes I made in the past...I was underselling jobs...and not marking up enough.Smarter now, not harder-silver
blue,
selling roofs after a hail storm---is shooting fish in a barrel It's VERY easy to get an inflated idea of how well you are really doing---and to totally lose track of the big picture Hail storm work comes to an end--as hard as it is to imagine right now--- it DOES end------and when that happens 6 months from now--- then what-- what is your new company going to do then? Every DIYer thinks they do quality work---because they don't know what they don't know your partner-- lost a bundle when he went into something- not knowing what he didn't know right now-- YOU don't know what you don't know. You are learning--- but you are focused on the wrong end of things. you are concentrating on "what will happen if everything goes right" long term success in roofing means being obsessed with "WHAT can go wrong?"--- and then preventing that from happening. in another thread- tim mooney -a guy with decades of experince in rentals and flipping houses--- pointed out to you what could go wrong in a Lease option deal--- but you dismissed hisreal world presentation-- because you are thinking primarily of " what can go right?-- what can I make if everything falls into place" your approach to roofing is looking the same--you are willfully ignoring " what can go wrong" for inbstance-- you don't understand why or how a low level employee of a sub could intentionally or un-intentionally do something that could come back to bite you months or years down the road.-- let's just say their dailey existance and cut out of these deals--- is very different than yours--- you do not share the same motivation on a 20 square roof-- there are a minimum of 7200 nails---ANY one of which can come back to bite you down the road. your $12/hour laborer that you are working in 100 degree heat 6 days a week---doesn't care if one of those 7200 nils goes HERE-- where it is gonna eventually leak-- or if it goes THERE 4" away where it will remain dry for the next 25 years like it or not-- that $12/hour high school drop out who is hung-over and disgruntled because his girlfrien looked at another guy last night?- HE is the one determining the actual quality of your installation-- not YOU.Stephen
Stephen, your warnings about me not knowing what I don't know are certainly welcome but midguided because you are dismissing the other half of this partnership. My partner has already lived through your learning curve. In fact, he made himself into a self made millionaire in the roofing business, without every laying one hailstorm roof! He did give it all back in the custom building business but guess what....every other builder in MI did too.
It's just the nature of that beast.
300,000 people left MI last year. Guess where many of them are headed? Yep...here in central Texas. So what does all that mean? Nothing, except that the economy here is as robust as MI was when Clinton was in office.
So what does that mean? That means that maybe, just maybe, someone with experience in different industries has a chance at making a go of any business if they relocate in Austin. Yes, they are going to face challenges and yes, there will be some failures. I'm not looking at anything through rose colored glasses. But, does that mean I should not sell one or two roofs per day because some guy might not nail every nail perfectly? Are you really sure every one of your nails, that your guys nail, is perfect? Don't you face the same possibilities of that errant nail causing a leak?
I expect a nail or two to fail. That's why I put felt on (properly).
And don't even get started with Tim. He was the guy that can't understand why anyone would give their house away to someone like me without me putting up a substantial amount of cash. He simply has his own ideas about how he would sell (and buy) a house. He doesn't recognize that others have different needs and therefore different solutions apply. He can't even conceive of the concept of what a sandwhich lease option offers even though he would be in a much better position, riskwise, if he picked them up, and sold them, on options. Instead, every time he buys a house, he puts his own name and credit on the line and he exposes himself to the exact same threat that any landlord is exposed too from his tenant. Yes, a lease option tenant might tear out all the copper and sell it but so might his tenants that don't have an option. And...a lease optioner can be much more choosy and wait out the market and wait till he finds a tenant that will put substantially more down than Tim gets. Why? Because of the way the original lease and lease option is written up. So, why doesn't Tim embrace that idea? Because he really hasn't taken the time to understand the concept. I don't know why but my wild guess is that he's too busy telling me that no intelligent person would sign over their house and since he believes that theres no reason for him to try to understand anything further in that type of transaction.
I also think you should stop worrying about the 100 degree heat. Down here, that's comfortable. When it dips below 90, we get cold. 95 is just right for me, just like you might prefer 72. The wage structure is different too. A carpenter can buy a brand new starter home, in a sub, for under 100k. I think I remember seeing those homes, new in a sub, for 89k down near San Marcos. Heck, the bums can stand on a corner and pay all their bills in two hours (they need a dollar for a hamburger and three dollars for their smokes).
We don't have any high school dropouts. I'm fairly confident that none of the guys have ever stepped foot inside a highschool. Their life has been out in the construction areas. They live and breathe construction. I know you want to think that none of them are worth anything but I have a lot of respect for them. They drive nice trucks and like nice things just like you and I. The lead guys are good and the young ones look up to them just like I looked up to the mentors that taught me. There aren't any $12 per hour guys running the tools. The skilled guys want the same dollars that any journey man wants....and they get it. I don't know what the guys carrying the shingles get but I doubt that they can affect the quality of the roof. They only thing they get to hammer is the plastic caps when they are putting on the felt. And yes, they lap the felt properly and puts lots of plastic caps in it.
Blue - you talk like a general contractor! I think a lot of the misguided worry you speak of comes from a lack of the type of management / leadership skills that a good general contractor develops over years of supervising subs and employees. If I had to drive every nail myself to make sure it was done right, I'd be in a heap of trouble as a general. You learn how to get the best from your people, or else you go into the type of business where one guy and a helper can do everything! Different strokes for different folks. View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Misguided worries is maybe a misnomer. I am worried, that's why I'm watching and supervising. I'm also out there trying to source the best local subcontractors that I can find. I don't want to use crews that will leave town after the hailstorm work is done. We aren't in the hailstorm business, we are in the roofing business.
Of course, we won't rule out entering the hailstorm business though if we can find a good traveling crew. There are lots of them but I don't know about their quality.
I think it's important to mention that all subcontractors aren't schmucks. I think there is a general rush to judgment that labels all subs as worthless and non-caring. That just isn't true. I was a framing sub for at least twenty years and I don't think you'd find many framers that cared more. There are roofers too out there like that. They don't jump out of bed and think "I'll go find a roof to mess up today". They are thinking, caring human beings too.
The main difference with them is that they don't sell retail. They don't like the sales and marketing side of retail sails so they choose to work for builders and general contractors instead of being out there like Haz and co. I was that kind of guy. I preferred to work for builders rather than deal with the zillion little quirks of homeowners. It was just easier for me. I knew I was sacrificing the money that goes with the retail sales gigs, but I didn't care. Time was more important to me. I didn't have to do much after I left the jobsite when I subbed to builders. I didn't have to have an organized approach to marketing and selling and setting appointments and keeping them. I'd sell one builder and he'd sell me for months or years. Now, I'm on the other side of the coin, selling quality roofing subs. My challenge is to find the best sub, then keep him busy because I know if I don't, he'll be working somewhere else.
Silver-
Somethine else to consider is doing handyman-type services, and smaller 1 or 2 day jobs.
I get a lot of calls from customers saying they can't find anyone interested in doing small jobs.
Well, right now even the big guys are doing small jobs. But since I've got a very loyal customer base, I'm still getting calls.
The trick is to not be afraid to charge enough. If you're there just an hour or two, you still have to make it worth YOUR while.
My work is mixed between small repairs, and small renovations. I've had about 2 months this year where I wasn't busy, but now things are moving again.
I am not a business man but I think doing the 1 day jobs even when times are good would be beneficial.
I agree. If nothing else, it kind of keeps my name fresh in the customers mind when they want the bigger stuff done.
Hi Shep,"Somethine else to consider is doing handyman-type services, and smaller 1 or 2 day jobs."I've tried quoting on these-someone called me this week...Could you hang a door, and case 3 sides of doors. Sure, I says, no problem...doesn't matter what it is, I can do it... $70. per hour...never heard from her again.I charge myself out at 50. plus 50%- 75.00. And I learned from BT that it's best to quote by the job, not hourly so I try to stick to that.I'm open to handyman-type services-just not sure how to make it work.I have lots of work, always busy...mostly referrals...I change from year to year but I've been playing it safe with the recession-doing lots of hardwood floors and interior handrails...both are too labour intensive.thanks for your thoughts,silver
don 't give hourl;y quotes. give job quotes, 1/2 day minimum. I make more money on two 1/2 day jobs that fill up most of the day than I do on 1 whole day job.
I asked her how long she thought it would take...4 hours...So I said 350.00 for myself and my helper-we had a small window and would get in and get out.She balked at that so I said 75.00 an hour just for me...some folks can't be pleased...and are still looking for tradesmen who will work for 35. an hour.I like bigger jobs-1 week minimum mainly because I don't like humping my tools around for small jobs...as I used to tell my students...
inclination
motivation
styleI'm inclined to do 1 week to 1 month jobs
which motivates me
and becomes my style or MOmy 2 cents on saturday morning-have a good weekendsilver
inclinationmotivation style
I'm inclined to do 1 week to 1 month jobswhich motivates meand becomes my style or MO
I like that! My personal motto has been do it with some sort of style and class, the reputation will follow.
Exploit might be the wrong word.But I have a sterling reputation earned by during every project to the best of my ability over the last 20 years.And now I want to exploit/take advantage of my reputation to position my company for more profitable renovations.Kitchens actually fit in perfect to my style/MO...I'm a high end woodworker and I don't really want to build custom cabinets...but I got into handrails because they are fairly lucrative and they require a lot of finesse to do well...all carpenters can frame but not all carpenters can do handrails...A contractor who I worked for years ago is now building a 30,000 square foot custom home and he once told me-You don't have to be the best-just the best at marketing.I don't agree with him -although for an ####, he's done very well
for himself.but being the best at marketing is where I'm heading as well.cheers,
silver
He does have a point about marketing. In marketing you don't necessarily have to tell the truth, just convince the prospective customer that you are telling the truth. I don't like it, goes against my sense of decency/honesty but that's the world we live in.
Those that fall to the BS marketing skills of the lesser quality won't be calling the guy back though, unlike my customer base does for me.
Funny thing is...his initials are BS.I too have zero tolerance for bs-coming or going...
While we are on the subject of marketing, I came across this link last night-about selling a $30,000 watch in a recession.I don't agree with all of it but there are a few gems in it...http://www.reddit.com/tb/946pqsilver-all that glistens isn't gold
I'm open to handyman-type services-just not sure how to make it work.
Look at how the franchises are doing it and mimic them.
At the very least, you should be charging a minimum showup fee of at least one hour drive and one hour work. I'd probably move that number up to three hours minimum, then bill by quarter hour increments after that. The retail labor rate for skilled is around $75 for carps.
Jim,"The retail labor rate for skilled is around $75 for carps."
That's good to know-that's what I'm shooting for these days.BTW,I read in other threads that you are in roofing now...I'm really curious how you got into it and what you're doing. I know roofing cab be very lucrative...silver
The roofing thing sorta/kinda evolved.
My SIL's friend in MI had started a roofing business and became very successful at it. I've spoke about his path in here in the path. He went into the "roofing business" instead of becoming a "roofer". That fact inpressed me everytime I thought about it and I tried to learn from him.
After he became successful, he got the urge to build custom homes but his timing was awful and he put up a three million worth of specs and lost them to the bank. In the meantime, the roofing business continued but at a much slower pace due to the bleak MI economy.
So, in the past year, he and I had had several conversations about his business, how it might work here in TX and the possibility of trying to duplicate it here. At some point we agreed to work together in 09. The goal was to see if he could duplicate his success, teach it to someone else and then possibly franchise it in some form. So, that is what we are doing now.
As far as the actual roofing; we are simply selling roofs to people that need them. Luckily for us, the area got hit by a hailstorm so we are doing a large volume and most of the roofs are being paid for by the insurance companies. Of course, we all know that that comes with it's own set of problems but we are working though all that.
I was apprehensive about the roofing business and that is one reason that I didn't get it started in 08 when we first started discussing it. At that time, I was very busy with the remodels that we had sold. I tired very quickly with the remodel industry though. I've never been a great fit for it so that is when I escalated the talks about roofing. Even though roofing is remodeling, it's a much smaller subset and I decided that I'd give it a try because it's so much more focused. I liked framing because I could do the same thing every day and then work to improve every aspect of it. I'll do the same for roofing.
Roofing might be a "lucrative" subset in the remodeling industry. We are not quite hitting the 40% goal but we are very close. Most of our problems has been the learning curve. For instance, I built a job last week with 30 year shingles that should have been 3 tabs. The homeowner got a free $1200 upgrade LOL. It was a paperwork mistake, but we learned something from it and we'll avoid that in the future. The job certainly will bring our overall average down and we will not be happy about that.
That is one of the keys you should focus on: getting that gross profit margin up to where it should be. One thing that I once read said "Anything that you measure and analyze will improve." Take that to heart and you'll soon see your bottom line improving.
Thanks for filling me in on the roofing business... "That is one of the keys you should focus on: getting that gross profit margin up to where it should be. One thing that I once read said "Anything that you measure and analyze will improve." Take that to heart and you'll soon see your bottom line improving."Right on Jim...I'm working on it.I was reflecting on mistakes of the past...I wasn't focused on making money...I was focused on being a craftsman and that impacted the bottom line. silver
I was focused on being a craftsman and that impacted the bottom line.
Unfortunatly, most carpenters are focusing on being craftsmen too at the expense of the bottom line. The result is catastrophic to basic business principles on a widespread scale. Thats the primary reason that I say that carpentry isn't a business, it's a hobby. It might also be safe to say that carpenters are artists and we all know that artists usually starve. In any case, it's a bleak analysis of the state of the trade.
I know it's not impossible for a carpenter to elevate his lifelong pleasure to a reasonable business level, but I just don't know how to do it. I never came close.
Blue---- I would not be remotely excited about doing roofs------at the insurance companies price but-- you will live and learnstephen
Stephen, I've done nine of them in the last two weeks at the insurance prices. I am very excited about it! We obviously have a different business model.
"We obviously have a different business model."I would be curious to know what your current business model is...thanks,silver
My current business model is such that I'm not working with any tools, other than my computer, cell phone, notepad and pen. And I'm not selling them either although occassionally, I fill in when needed.
If I were into kitchens, I'd be using you to install them.
Essentially, we are at the top of the food chain, selling at the retail level and buying our products at wholesale and using subcontractors that will deliver excellent quality installations at wholesale prices (and terms) to us. Its just basic business practices and there are no big secrets other than lower your costs as low as possible and then sell it for what the market will bear.
One difference is our attitude. We have negotiated every step of the way with the attititude that we will be selling, and installing, a minimum of one roof per day. That makes a difference. The suppliers want our business and the roofers want our business and their prices reflect that.
Now, contrast our attitude to how most tradesmen run their businesses. They don't walk into the supply house and demand the best prices. Most tradesmen would walk in and pay cash, without even setting up an account. Why? Because it's easy. Or, maybe they think they are getting a cash discount. Or, they might not want to use a credit line because they don't like to have bills to pay at the end of the month. The problem is: the supply houses don't get excited about a guy buying one roof or kitchen every month. They like the guys that are buying one, two or three houses a day and they'll bend over backwards, with their pricing and service, to accomodate them.
At this point, I am running a business. I don't have any time left in the day to be a carpenter, craftsman, artist or even do any labor. I'm too busy for any of that.
"Essentially, we are at the top of the food chain, selling at the retail level and buying our products at wholesale and using subcontractors that will deliver excellent quality installations at wholesale prices (and terms) to us. Its just basic business practices and there are no big secrets other than lower your costs as low as possible and then sell it for what the market will bear."Thanks for explaining your business model, Jim. Come to think of it...that is basically what Home Depot does.I'm getting myself to the top of the food chain as quick as I can.buy low sell highkeep overhead as low as possible sell skills/time as high as possible...I am going to talk to an extremely well seasoned kitchen guy who had his own shop and is now selling kitchens for a lumber franchise. He once referred me to a bar reno that I just about blew off...it turned into $10,000 MIP so it was a great referral.With his expertise in designing custom kitchens and my installation skills, I would be far higher in the food chain than Home Depot and
I could offer -1 call does it all-kitchen transformation experiences...way closer to the top of the food chain... silver
since he has no idea what the insurance company quoted... it was just a mouth fart..
I like how people post "opinions" without know'n facts...
i once had the insurance co pay me 9k for a 3ft x 150ft rubber roof.. took less than a day to do the job...
Alot of folks who talk about have'n no money... won't work for it....
the real fact is... sometimes you make a base hit... sometimes you hit a homerun...
if you think you will do well by being "constant" in your set "mark-ups" you really have to be lucky to make money...
I've read all these posts for years on here about mark-ups and how much you should make on each job... from my point of view I'd say 95% are BS... do what you have to do... find a better way to do it... do it at a higher quality level... whatever... the end result is MIP... ie... money in pocket after the job is done and everyone paid... that is the ONLY measure of each and every job.. I don't care if it's my 20 unit condo project... or hang'n one door... the end is the same...
count the money... how much more do you have than before? are you happy with that outcome? and would you do it all over for the same reward? anything else is just BS...
I've never been proud... i've done work just so I can eat... what someone else gets for the same work has never been an issue or a concern...
p:)
I've really been thinking about what you said earlier and I'm glad you expounded...It is easy to get hung up on markup and thinking I should be making 70 bucks an hour... "MIP-count the money... how much more do you have than before? are you happy with that outcome? and would you do it all over for the same reward? anything else is just BS..."perspective-makes me think...I was just looking over my customer listLast week I quoted 1300.00 on a PITA parquet floor job BUT I have time to do that job and need some coin...So I'm going to rethink that and come up with a lower number by bringing a helper, doing it faster for less...and end up with MIP.thanks,silver
Pony,
I have no idea what the insurance company"allows" on blues projects but I know what they "allowed" here in akron after we had a hail storm 6-8-07. they "allowed" $260/sq.---which is less than I was getting 10-12 years ago they "allowed"$40 to flash a chimney I spent the 2 years after 6-8-07 re-roofing a good number of roofs I had roofed in the 20 years prior to the storm----at over $400/sq. I ma now in the process of starting to repair many the roofs the storm chasers effed up at $260/sq.---including those $40 chimney flashing jobs last week-on monday or tuesday( I forget which)-- i did a repair on a roof screwed up by somebody who was maybe in a similar situation to the one blue is in now local contractor--------hailstorm--decides he is gonna clean-up big time-----sold TONS of jobs at the insurance companies price---- got in over his head--- took deposits---couldn't get the work done-----paying subcontractors--ran out of money---OWED $60,000 and went to jail just a few months ago blue is on the fun end of this right now--- where he is selling jobs right and left and subbing out the work we will see if he thinks it is STILL fun12 months from now when the storm chasing crews are gone and he is holding the bag for somebody elses install there is a well known company here---- got involved in this like blue ----hail storm 6-8-07---- by september of the same year they had 8 lawsuits against them like i said earlier-- a year or so from now blue will know more about this than he does now. He would do well to look up some of the threads from 2007---- grant and I talked about this a lot back then because we experienced almost simultaneous hailstorms---and as well established local roofing contractors--- had to deal with the aftermath best wishes,
stephen
Stephen
Good post.
I know what Blue is doing and I respect his trying to work the office end of construction. I wish him well. I hope he has good subcontractors under him.
IMO most contractors don't put any value on a good roof job. I see very nice new homes built and then they hire a group of illegals to throw a roof on quick.
It doesn't make sense. All the protection of your investment starts with a good roof. Once water starts to get in, then you're in trouble.
Anybody can lay shingles in the field. Then again I have seen that screwed up too. Nails too high or overdriven. Most blow offs are from poor applications.
The details, the valleys and the flashing have to be done right to have a leak proof roof.
I can see both sides of this one and the reasons both of you make your choices, but as for my house I will get a good owner/installer if I want to have my roof installed.
Rich
I can see both sides of this one and the reasons both of you make your choices, but as for my house I will get a good owner/installer if I want to have my roof installed.
I agree. I want an owner/installer doing our roofs too.
With that said, I wouldn't want to deal with an owner/installer if I was getting an insurance roof laid. The reason I say that is because there is substantially more back office legwork that has to be done. I can't imagine that an owner/installer has the energy to do all this "behind the scenes" work in a timely manner while installing roofs all day.
For instance, I scheduled a very easy roof on Saturday. I knew the guys would be tired because the temps were over 100 every day last week (actually for the last two weeks). The job was a paltry 22 square or so and the owner did not want to have this dragged out. In fact, he turned down a neighborhood "handyman" that offered to do the roof for 1k over material costs. He chose us instead, partly because we guaranteed a one day roof. I arrived at 7:oo am. By 7:30 am, we discovered that the supply house had shipped five square of the wrong color. I sprung into action and found out that the supply house was not open on Sat. I scrambled and found the five at another but I didn't have much time because they close early.
Long story short, I got the five square back to them. I also inadvertantly chased and got one square of caps (didn't need it). To get those caps, I made it to the supply house just as they were locking the doors. I also chased a couple of roof jacks that weren't included on the original purchase order (my bad). In the end, I inspected the final roof at 3pm. The guy was happy. He commented that he was impressed that the crew had worked so dilligently all day and was extremely pleased that it was done in one day as promised.
My question is this. Would an owner operator have the ability to chase down those missing pieces AND get the job done? Im sure some would. I'm sure some wouldn't. Today, there is additional work going on in the office to finalize that job including some insurance stuff as well as the normal accounting etc. It's a lot of work. I'm not saying an owner/installer can't do that....I'm just wondering if they are handling it in a timely manner.
blue,
I am not gonna argue with you--because you are clearly in a position where you are trying to make a "virtue of necessity"the wrong 5 square?--- i would have known about it on Friday at the latest--saturday would never have entered into it. Despite that----- I could have handled the situation Saturday-----with one phone call. your one roof a day plan?--- we have done plenty of roofs in one day-------- but to do one roof a day consistently---- that's a procedure that leads to things coming back to bite you 6 months, 12 months down the road. in roofing-- you are always at the mercy of the dumbest, most disgruntled or apathetic worker on the roof. again,- i have spent 2 years watching the down side of the very system you are describing-----but best of luck to you,
stephen
I make some money on the side as an editor of journals and books. Given that this is taxed at a self-employment rate--a total of nearly 50% going to various taxes--I charge $50 an hour and blush and wince a bit apologetically and explain that only half of that money actually goes into my pocket.I spent last weekend with an attractive lawyer. She gave me a ride in her new $100,000 BMW series 6 convertible (she'd just traded in her 2009 for a 2010). She told me what her law firm bills for her services as an acquisitions and mergers specialist: $720 an hour! She works one hour a month to pay the lease.I gulped unobtrusively when I heard that. Then I grabbed a wrench and tightened some loose nuts on her toilet. No charge. Oh well. She's booked three nights in a fancy suite for us for next weekend, and a concert at Tanglewood and a Shakespeare play and some hiking and a long ride in that BMW. Imagine. I'm a 55 year old boy toy who knows how to use his tool. Nice work if you can get it.
Stephen, I'm learning a lot and one of the things I learned now is that sometimes they ship five squares of the wrong color. I was actually out to that house on Friday evening and I didn't notice that there were five squares wrong. I'll be more cognizant in the future, I can assure you.
The one phone call wouldn't have been much good because their phone system wasn't taking calls. I could have driven down there but I opted to drive somewhere else. If the phone call would have went through, I'm somewhat certain that they would have shipped the five squares out immediately but I can't say that with certainty at this point because our sales rep is on vacation. I was looking forward to discussing this situation with him today. I'll know what his solution is when he gets back from vacation. Since there are several other suppliers that are now interested in our business, I'm sure I'll find the right supplier soon and mistakes like this will be handled with one call too. I'll keep looking for a supplier till I have that type of service in any case.
Could you elaborate on why I should be concerned about building one roof per day and why it will haunt me? I don't see any advantage in stringing these jobs out over a couple days and every roofing crew here in Austin seems to do them in one day so I'm not sure where you are going with this. Since I have to go to a jobsite every day and do inspections and supervise, I don't see the advantage or disadvantage in going to the same place two days in a row.
Jim
I think what Stephan is getting at....and I don't want to put words in his mouth. You are building an inventory of roofs (roofies, rooves???) that have a warranty. A very small thing like one crew that goes sideways and all of a sudden you have 1 month of inventory (30 roofs) that maybe worst case need to be torn off and replaced.
So maybe the next crew is only half bad. And screws up 15 roofs. Now you have 45 roofs in 60 days to warranty. At 10k per roof this is $450,000. (I know it's retail)
Do you have a plan to address this? (besides moving back to MI) lol
Stephan and CU have seen the tail light warranty guys go through town.
that's an excellent point Scrapr but I was thinking primarily about something slightly different-----------but it ties in with your point blue is producing 1 roof a day---and he is working on Saturdays---which means the men are working5-6 days a week in 100 degree heat-----and on the roof that means it is over 140 degrees so--while blue is thinking" isn't this great----look at all the money I am making in the roofing business!"------ the guys actually doing the roof are making maybe $12/hour----and they show up to work each day hung over and still drained and exhausted from yesterday AND---all they can think about is slamming this roof out so they can get off that roof ASAPso----short cuts happen---maybe a WSV doesn't get bedded in mastic or Geocel---or A SBV doesn't get bedded, or the corners of the valley shingles don't get clipped, or the chimney flashing is simply face nailed to the chimney instead of being ground out and inset into the mortar------or a GAS flue flashing isn't properly prepped or replaced or the storm collar isn't caulked, or----on and on and on most of these things aren't visible---- but they come back to bite you down the road---maybe 2 months later---- 6 months later---2 years later blues sub crew is paid off and is long since down the road Storm work ends-- he may be doing 1 roof a day NOW---- but 3 months from now-- 6 months from now????? the one roof a day plan-------is an unholy beast that must be fed---- once you stop feeding it 1 roof a day---it falls apart but what is left behind---are all those vents that weren't bedded, all those shingles that were high nailed or short nailed and so forth that Blue is now on the hook for Now--- blue thinks he is at the top of the food chain---- but he is the one who the " call back" is gonna come to.--- his plan seems to be that the SUB is the responsible party for the call back------- but what is gonna happen is----6 months from now when Blue can't feed the subs 1 roof a day--- he no longer has a hold over them and his calls don't get returned--------- this next part is gonna sound harsher than I really mean it to be----
10 years ago blue was a happy framing contractor in Michigan and framing was the greatest---- THEN he was an un-happy framing contractor and framing was a horrible business, then pre-paid legal services were the greatest thing ever, then real estate was gonna be the greatest thing ever, then gonna sell out and get out of michigan and go where the grass is greener, then austin is the greatest and his saleswoman and craigs list subcontractors were gonna be great in the remodeling industry( as recently as 9-12 months ago) Now he is in the roofing business jumbing aboard the storm damage train----6 months from now-- then what? At best right now he is building a reputation for producing inexpensive roofs quickly---- but when that work dries up---and it does-- what then? Me personally?---------- i am going to likely spend a good portion of the next 10 years cleaning up after "roofing contractors" who thought much like blue in 2007. I can't tell you how many of these "roof a day operation " roofs i have been on---- that the new roof is WORSE than the allegedly storm damaged previous roof. I KNOW the previous roof----and I watched the roof a day guys put 9-10 guys on a new roof in 90 plus degree weather and watched them walk all over the new shingles---- scuff the bejabbers out of them etc. we did comparable roofs-- in 2 days with less guys-- typically done by lunchtime for the day--- the guys got paid for a full day---and spent the afternoon fishing---and came back the next morning rested and ready to concentrate and do a higher caliber of work. I am probably jinxining myself here-- but I have ZERO call backs out of that storm on my workAND-- I was getting requests for repair service on the "roof a day" storm chasers work WHILE they were still in town! gotta run,
stephen
so--while blue is thinking" isn't this great----look at all the money I am making in the roofing business
So, are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't set my goal for 40% gross profit margin, even though I've been pricing all my remodels at that rate for the last two years? And I shouldn't use salespeople to sell and I should wear all the hats myself?
You really haven't given me any reason for not putting on roofs except to say that it's better to put the roofs on in two days instead of one day. There is one problem with that though: the customers prefer to put the roof on in one day. They don't like the noise, the commotion or the hassle. They don't like roofers showing up before dawn and making noise on their roofs. So, while I meet their needs, you are suggesting that I change my business model to go against their wishes.
Thanks for the warnings about what to look for to make sure I'm getting a good roof. I don't know what you mean when you saw WSV or SBV so I'll have to do a little research. I do watch for all the other tidbits you've offered and I thank you for those warnings.
On a personal note, I wouldn't worry too much about us not knowing how the roofing business works. I've partnered with someone that has been doing exactly what we are doing since 1996. Our goal will be to have our own crews working everything in house but that isn't possible at this time till we get the shop. We are looking now for that. I guess it might comfort you to know that he has never done a hail job until he got here so the entire business plan is set up for "normal" roofs. We are just enjoying the easy sales while they are here.
I see this roofing business as a more focused subset of remodeling. We are essentially still out there in the retail world, selling services but since the product is focused, the demand on me personally, as a craftsman, is significantly more manageable. That wasn't the case when the girl was selling interior remodels and I just didn't want to be in the field so much working with the tools everyday. So, while you may not like my style or suggestion of using salespeople to build your business, I stand by that advice. It makes sense for every aspect of residential remodeling and it would probably help you manage your time, and money, if you found the right person for your business but I also understand why you would never head down that path.
We all have to accept that things change in our worlds. I think the book Who Moved My Cheese, spells that thought out clearly. I would have loved to stay in the framing business in MI but I can say with certainty that I would have been bankrupted by now. I was lucky to have enough experience (I went through the same thing in the early 80's) to be able to read the handwriting on the wall and I thank my lucky stars that I've landed here in Austin where the economy is still somewhat normal. Unfortunatly, the framing business here is dominated by hispanics that frame houses for 1.75 per foot whereas I was getting $7 per foot. I just dont see any opportunity there and I'm not too stubborn to change. My name aint' Hem.
I think you are taking a lot of heat here for nothing and should ignore it. Your game plan is admirable, a roof a day would just mean keeping in touch with customers who had their start dates delayed from rain. A seasoned remodeler knows how to talk to people about those problems.
I wouldn't characterize this discussion as "heat". Haz is giving me fair warning and I appreciate that in him, after all, we are providing the same service and he's got decades more experience aimed precisely at my market. I benefit greatly from his comments.
One of the ways I benefit is by being ready to overcome those objections that will surface in our sales process. If I can't answer Stephen, I can't answer the homeowner. I know there are many, many Stephens operating in my market and they often have already made their case to the homeowners when we sit down with them. I win some and lose some, just like in any competitive situation.
He makes his case by explaining that he will be on the roof doing the work. I make my case by explaining that I will be carefully supervising the workers on the roof. Either way the client wins because the job will be carefully built and closely scrutinized. Haz also has the advantage of knowing his market personally and intimately. Thats a huge obstacle for me to overcome and the only way I will win that battle is to match quality (in the selling process) and then beat him on price. I don't have any doubt that his actual work is superior because the roofers I'm using don't have as much experience as him. That is a fact but after that, it's a numbers game. Haz can't build everyone's roof so some people will have to choose others. If its me against Haz and money's not a factor, I lose. But, while he's building that roof, I'll get others. It's that simple.
We are working in neighborhoods with as many as fifteen different roofing signs on the lawns. I'm okay with that. My only focus is on my customer and I'm doing everything in my power to deliver more than what we've promised. I had that same attitude when I framed a house and I'll carry that attitude till the last job I do for people on this earth. In the process, I will strive to streamline the process and hone the techniques in any way I can. That's my nature.
Right now, I'm trying to systematize my installation process beginning from the first time the contract gets handed over to me. I've got a lot to learn and I'm gaining ground fast LOL. I've never had to handle any volume like this and it's been an eye operner. Its an interesting challenge to say the least.
My biggest challenge has been the money. We have had to learn to understand the rythym of when the people will have their money. It has created holes in the schedule that have been challenging. The best thing that could happen to me at this point is to get a backlog of people with their checks ripened, so I can schedule them out a week or two. That hasn't happened yet. We haven't had a true five day build week yet, but I'm looking forward to that. The closest I've had was four in a week but when you consider that one of them was a "double" (65 squares), I'd say I'm doing okay. I learned a bit that week too. I made the mistake of scheduling a hard 32 square job on Saturday and the guys were too tired to get it done. They had to come back on Sunday to finish. They took Monday and Tuesday off to recoup though. The circumstance that caused them to work Sunday was unique (the proud parents of a newborn were bringing their child home on Monday morning) and the guys agreed to "gitter done" to avoid the noise situation that would occur for the little gal.
In any event, the homeowners aren't pressing us to get these roofs scheduled faster than we are able. They understand that the hailstorm has strectched the production abilities of all the crews and the different trades and most people are very gracious and patient. They don't expect miracles. They are being very realistic.
My only focus is on my customer and I'm doing everything in my power to deliver more than what we've promised. I had that same attitude when I framed a house and I'll carry that attitude till the last job I do for people on this earth. In the process, I will strive to streamline the process and hone the techniques in any way I can. That's my nature.
them's beautiful words, right thereView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I think a lot of folks in here live by those words. Some might not strive to speed up the processes as much as I but that really doesn't usually matter much to homeowners. They don't care if a five day job takes four days. Builders do but homeowners don't.
Thanks for the warning Srapr.
I don't see how I could end up with 30 roofs that go sideways. Maybe you missed the point that I'm out there personally supervising them. I see what's going on. I inspect everything, before, during and after the roof installation. I'm not there 100% of the time and I suppose they could intentionally sabotage things but I'm not understanding why they would.
Yes, we have lots of roofs to warrant and thats why I watch so closely. I've partnered with Don Anthony Roofing and he literally has millions of roofs under warranty right now back in MI.
I think we all should remember that roofs aren't rocket science.
"I've partnered with Don Anthony Roofing"I'm thinking "partnering" is a good way to get ahead.I'm working on a WSIB issue with Home Depot but I'm also looking around and trying to line up a better for me partnering. The older kitchen guy has moved on...not sure where...but I may approach a few businesses with the idea of selling 20 + kitchens a year in partnership with them...not 1 a day but 2 a month...silver
I've done a few partnerships in my days. I like working with others as equals aiming for an equal goal. I'm still partnered up in some real estate deals right now with two different partners. Both of them would do another real estate deal buy I'm not too keen to do much until I have a better understanding of where the market is heading. The questions regarding the rates of inflation and lending are too big for me to comprehend. I have started the process of building a client list (buyers) though because the roofing business is putting me in close contact with so many different people that I think I would be foolish to ignore the possiblities.
Because I've been around the block with partners, I'll offer this. Find someone that is smarter and works smarter than you. Don't go down the ladder to find a partner. Don't partner with someone equal to you and your skills. Make the partnership have a reason for existence. Each segment must compliment the other.
Don't fear partnerships but think them out thoroughly including your exit strategy. I partnered with a guy named Forest for about four years framing. Each house was an open and closed partnership. We never shared tool expenses. We didn't really share tools. Basically, we'd close out the "company" after each and every framejob. We'd split the gross income based on hours. He typically put in twice as many hours on each job (I was coaching at the high school and I only worked half days) and he basically took two thirds of the gross on every job. It was fair and it worked. If you do kitchens as working partners, I'd suggest splitting the jobs in the same way based on hours worked.
I don't think anyone would expect you to sell one kitchen a day. Kitchens are a "want" so in this market, I'd be surprised if you sell twenty in a year but I don't know how your market is. I know this: you better be aggressive with pricing if you want to get the sale.
Tell me a little bit about the entity or person that you are thinking of partnering with. Let's critique the arrangement. It sounds like a fun exercise that may prove fruitful if we can help you sort out the problems.
"Tell me a little bit about the entity or person that you are thinking of partnering with. Let's critique the arrangement. It sounds like a fun exercise that may prove fruitful if we can help you sort out the problems."I talked to Emile tonight...I heard he left Home Hardware so I had a hunch to call him and see what he's up to.Emile is 70, fair guy, straight shooter -owned his own cabinet shop for 20 years or so and the last 5 he had an arrangement selling our of with Home Hardware.He's a kitchen designer with 25 years + experience who told me he doesn't like watching tv and his wife likes him to work because it keeps him out of mischief...translation-he's in the same boat as me;his business motto is done right the first time and that's my MO so we're a good fit that way.I asked him if he thought we could work together and he thought we would be a good fit...#### went down at HH and I have a few calls in to check the back story...A bit of spin:Custom Kitchens designed for you by Emile and installed by Phil Hill Custom Inc., owner/craftsman on every installation and responsible for all details Walking you through the process and making it all work seamlessly in your life. Done right the first timeI'm a detail person-devil's in the detail...He has been a major player in the kitchen market for years. He said he has some condo jobs coming and we should get together and talk.Feels better in the gut than Home Depot...work is like a bargain...hard to say no when it's in front of you.I'm still in the game at Home Depot...will commit to workman's comp tomorrow or not. If I go that route it's an extra $3000. a year for comp over sales of 50,000-60,000 year. I'm thinking it's possible to train a crew to install the Home Depot jobs...a big leap for me...I have to leap in some ways so I'm rolling that in the mix as well.Phil
I don't envy you.
A year or so ago, I was talking with a painting contractor. He mentioned that he was contemplating signing on with Home Depot as their paint contractor out of one of their stores. I asked him if he had ever had any experience dealing with Home Depot. To my surprise he said "yes, I used to manage one of the stores" in some fashion. I don't remember the details.
Anyways, we talked about their requirements and their programs. He had to basically go out on every sale call and sell his services. They clipped a major portion of his sale price for them selves. That put him in a pretty high priced ticket as compared to the one man shops that he was competing with...but, he did have the Home Depot name behind him and that is significant, no matter how we try to belittle it.
Then, we started discussing the procedures regarding customer complaints. By the end of the discussion he and I had basically figured out that when a problem arose, Home Depot was always right. The customer was also always right. That left only one chump holding the bag and he confirmed that they always held the contractor responsible and deducted everything from their pay.
Now you know why I don't envy you. You will naturally have to pay for your own mistakes but you will also have to hold the bag when Home Depot makes the mistake. That means, all your service calls will be done for free when they can't get their special orders right. That probably doesn't happen that often though eh?
No, I don't envy you with this decision because it sounds like you really need to get in on some of that Home Depot work.
Read your post this morning over coffee...went out to the shop and milled some oak for an install...getting ready to fly to a stair job...In the meantime, I called a high end cabinet job-one of the best in town...new owners...interested in working with me...Home Depot got my brain working...I'm going to establish myself with 2 or 3 cabinet shops so I can offer my customers choice...to work with their budgets...at the top of the food chain.I was attracted to railings because they require a lot of finesse-to design and install-not all contractors can do them and I can ask a premium price and consistently deliver a very good product-I knew kitchens were lucrative-but I didn't want to build them in my shop-and I stopped there...but I can do with kitchens what I do with railings and the numbers: 1 25,000 kitchen a month x 10 250,0001 20,000 kitchen a month x 10/yr. 200,000.2 10,000 kitchens a month 200,000.I want to shoot for 250,000/year so as I put this together:forget about home depotramp up my marketing with a focus on kitchensestablish relationships with 1 high end and 2 middle to high end cabinet suppliersfocus on doing 1 or 2 a month extremely well-more my styleanyway that's what I'm thinking...I've enjoyed this thread and it's helped me bust through some assumptions in my mind that were like road blocks...Thanks to all and i hope we keep throwing ideas around...
silver
Jim
I saw your point about being on the roof with your guys. And that is probably the only way your system works. Trust but verify.
I think the weak point in your system is that you are relatively new to roof construction. And you don't know what you don't know. So something that you "think" is OK is installed. Rainy season comes. You have 120 roofs out there in warranty. And your sub is out of business
And millions of roofs? At 1 million over 20 years that is 200/day. Millions? Thousands I believe
I meant millions of dollars. Literally. Most of that is in MI. We'll have at least a million by the end of year one here but if that's all, I'll be dissappointed.
I may be new to doing a roof a day but my partner isn't. He's been doing roofs as a business since 1996. From day one, he always intended to build a successful roofing business but started his business with the hammer in his hand. He started that way but never intended to continue building the business based on his own labor.
I truly am thankful for any helpful warnings about what to look for. I'm not totally oblivious to what constitutes a quality roof though. There is plenty of information available from the supply yards and manufacturers. For instance, Don has given me a handly little roofers bible put out by GAF which details how to install all their products...or about 350 pages of them. But you can't overlook the fact that I laid my first roof back in the 70's. I did my first roof for myself as the GC back in the 80s. I'm not exactly a rookie LOL. I also consider myself to be somewhat intelligent, meaning the boys aren't going to fool me easily. I've been sneaking around jobsites supervising men since 1978. I know about all the ways they want to cut corners.
I really don't care if my sub goes out of business. We'll warrant and fix anything that is wrong. I can say with certainty that I don't expect very much to be wrong....after all, I've been watching carefully and the guys are actually very skilled roofers.
I think you guys might be thinking that the roofs are being put on by day workers or something. I can assure you that they are not. The lead roofer is as skilled as a craftsman as I would want. He has one other nailer that he supervises. They both have someone feeding them shingles and doing all the prep. The man lays shingles for about 50 hours per week. Do you not agree that if someone lays shingles 50 hours per week, that he wouldn't get good at it?
I'm really not worried at all about the quality of these roofs. I know for a fact that they are of a higher quality than if I would do them myself personally because I lose patience very fast after I lay about five square. I'm good for ten square per year max, then I'm shortcutting everything. I'd fire myself midway through the first job.
Seriously though, I do appreciate any help that you may offer to help me smoke out the problems that could occur. At this point, we haven't run into any issues. Most of the chimneys are fake so the flashings are the "normal" here which is L-flashing with a "turnback". That's local lingo. I never saw this done in MI because everything needs to be stepflashed (ice dams would sneak past these L Flashings) but who am I to tell Texas how to flash their roofs LOL? So, please, let me know what I should be looking for.
I first saw those L flashing with turnbacks in 1986 in Nebraska. Solder all joints.
I don't think I would allow an L flashing if we were subject to freezing conditions. I don't see how soldering would help them if snow and ice could occur. When I first saw them here I thought the roofers were being cheesy but I now agree that they probably will work. They better work though because there are 1.6 million people in the Austin area living in houses with no step flashing LOL!
jim
I'm happy for you that you are out of the framing rat race.
Sounds like you are enjoying the roofing business.
Would an owner operator have the ability to chase down those missing pieces AND get the job done
Of course he would. Would the job take a little longer. Yeah.
I work in a small town enviroment, 2 or 3 yards to chose from. Only one in town and 2 others that deliver in town. 10 and 20 miles away.
The yard that is 20 miles away is the fastest on deliveries. LOL
I'm not saying an owner/installer can't do that....I'm just wondering if they are handling it in a timely manner
You were there. Every contractors dilema --do you spend time in the office or in the field?
Rich
Homes in Austin are way different than where you are. Most are gonna be 1-story lowpitch. And Texas subs are making 40-50 a square.
Stephen, I'm not worried about going to jail because we took deposits and didn't do the work because we don't take ANY MONEY until the job is completed. So far, we are batting 1.000% on collecting after the job is done.
I'm also not too worried about the roofs leaking due to shoddy workmanship. I have pictures of the roof before, during and after the work is done. I have pictures showing the paper properly installed, the valleys properly laid and cut. I have pictures of the nailing and the nails. I have pictures of the gable cuts, shingle layout and caps.
The agreement with the workers is this: if we have to do any of the work to finish the job in a workmanlike manner, we don't have to pay them anything for the roof. They agreed to this and to protect their money, they are doing an excellent job.
My job is simple: I supervise the supervisor who supervises the supervisor who supervises the jobsite forman. I really don't care how many layers of supervision there are, I'm still going to walk every roof, before, during and after the roof is done. They see me there at many different times. It's all random. They see me taking pictures, taking notes, lifting shingles, looking under flashings etc, etc, etc. Will they get away with some shortcuts? Possibly: probably...but they have to be good to sneak it by me.
I also hope we can capitalize on some of the shoddy workmanship that is being done by unethical stormchasers. I'll be more than happy to do the repairs for any of the slop that they left behind; after all, I'm not a storm chaser, I'm a local contractor that intends to do business here for the next few decades and maybe beyond.
One other thing. I'm using local roofing labor. They live in the same city I live. I'm not opposed to using out of staters because I will know that the roof is properly laid and I will be able to service any small issues that might occur. No one is perfect so I'm more than willing to do what I promised. In fact, I'm heading out right now to put a piece of drip flashing on that I decided needed replacing. This is one of the few times I'll have tools in my hand. I don't really have to but because I'm a nice guy, I decided to take care of this one myself. I'm just trying to save the installer a little time because it really wasn't anything of his fault and I felt like I was being a bit picky. In reality, I was replacing this piece more for show: six additional roofs hinge on us doing an excellent job.
"It might also be safe to say that carpenters are artists and we all know that artists usually starve. In any case, it's a bleak analysis of the state of the trade."I tried to stay away from saying artist but yeah artist.failing to plan is planning to fail...
I'm working on a business plan and I think I will start a new thread trying to pick some brains ...mea culpa...I've been stupid...stupid is as stupid does...but I'm a man and I can change if I have to, I guess(red green)I've looked at the options even roofing but it comes back to inclination, motivation, style...I have no inclination towards roofs...lucrative or not...I'm inclined thus motivated to be a carpentry contractor because
I love working with my hands and tools
I enjoy solving customer's problems and improving their living space.But my style, my plan, my MO , my business model is now changing,
evolving to better meet my financial goals. That's my challenge...silver
never quote by the hour... 99% of people will not like NOT knowing what something will cost... they have no idea what you know or how fast you work... $70 hr could cost em $70 or could cost em $350 to do the same job by different people with different skill sets
you are the professional... YOU should know from past experience exactly what it will cost the customer ...
i bet if you had told her $200 and I can be there first thing in the morning... you'd be $200 richer right now...
p
"i bet if you had told her $200 and I can be there first thing in the morning... you'd be $200 richer right now..."I 'm trying to cut to the chase faster...there was a red flag on the play-might not get paid...she was trying to flip a house to someone who wanted this done before they closed the next day...I was doing her a huge favour... and I figure I would have worked close to 6 hours and get 200.. I could have done it tho...but 200. wouldn't have motivated me to do it...But I will think the next time a few hun slips through my hands...what's better at the end of the week? a bird in the hand or 2 in the bush... thanks silver
Thats a very good point Ponytl. Jobs can often be won when the sales guy demonstrates confidence and competence, especially with pricing. Sometimes, the prices can be higher than the competition but the method of delivery tells the buyer that the higher price is probably the right price....then they buy.
I just built a small job (under 6k) yesterday for a guy that had collected 44 different business cards of people trying to sell him a roof. One thing he mentioned was that our price was 18 dollars different than what the insurance company was going to pay. To him, that demonstrated competence because we had told him that our price would be almost exactly the same as what the insurance company was going to pay him. We made the statement and he made us prove that we could back up our words. We did and we won his business. The exciting thing about this guy is that he has three neighbors that we will be doing business with. We already have an appointment set with one of them.
On stuff like that. folks get scared of high hourly rates.I often see the moderate to cheap customers get a fifteen dollar an hour man to do something vs my rates.but after watching some of these guys work, and hearing what their bill comes to, I know they are overbilling and/or sitting down on the job.But I don't try to compete with lowballers. For instance, I once quoted $200/sq for some cedar shingle work. They hired a $15/hr guy and after watching his progress, I know it cost them twice as much as it would have to let me do it, but you would never convince them. It is a mindset with some people. You have to learn to spot them and work one side or the other.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I learned here on BT to avoid quoting by the hour and try to stick to contract pricing only.I had a well to do customer grind me yesterday because I quoted 14,700
on an entertainment centre.She told me my prices were too high and she had a price of 7000.00 and it's getting done and it's gorgeous.{she didn't tell me that he worked for her before, quit in the middle of a job AND OWES HER DEEP)I stopped by yesterday to drop something off and she showed it to me...she said it was his first attempt at something like that and it showed.I could have quoted lower but I added the PITA factor...but when I checked, I had marked material up 25% and labour 67%... I should have seen that we were not a good fit but ...I'll be watching closer next time. silver
She told me my prices were too high and she had a price of 7000.00 and it's getting done and it's gorgeous.{she didn't tell me that he worked for her before, quit in the middle of a job AND OWES HER DEEP)
I stopped by yesterday to drop something off and she showed it to me...
she said it was his first attempt at something like that and it showed.
Story of my life! Man, I run into this stuff A LOT!! Underbid by hacks, and then we're supposed to feel guilty for "gouging" because we charge for quality work. Someday that elusive mythological customer will show up, who wants quality, recognizes quality, appreciates quality, and is willing to pay for it without complaining!!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Good to know I'm not alone on this one...I quoted a lady on a handrail-supply, finish and install and later heard from my supplier she found someone to do it for what she said was 1/4 of my price...good luck with that one<grin> BTW-today is summer here in northwestern Ontario so I took the rest of the week off and am alternating between getting sun and chilling at the computer in my basement office.Our hay is arriving today-and is over a month late-lots of rain.
I make good money when I have really big jobs, or nothing but small jobs.Problem is with a vacillating economy and limited geographical exposure, I have to take both at times like these.There is a valid reason for sticking to a business plan.
But I don't do it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi to all and to you silver 77!!! You still young as long as you think you are. You are what this Great Country is all about, hard workin Americans that don't give up and sit and waith for the government to take care of. You have the skills to make it and you will. GOOD LUCK.!!!!!!!!
Edited 7/25/2009 1:02 pm ET by snoofy
"Hi to all and to you silver 77!!! You still young as long as you think you are. You are what this Great Country is all about, hard workin Americans that don't give up and sit and waith for the government to take care of. You have the skills to make it and you will. GOOD LUCK.!!!!!!!! "Hi snoofy...
thanks...I gotta laugh though...I'm an expat... now a canadian citizen.I'm not planning on retiring and I figure I have at least 20 years to make some serious coinage... and you're right...my dad is 82, just recovered from a serious car accident and he says-I'm getting older but I'm not old.thank god age brings wisdom!cheers,silver
Hi Phil
I am glad you have resurfaced. Although after reading thru the thread I can see that you have been lurking. I worked yesterday until about 6:30 on a rental and then I saw the thread later in the evening but I have not had time to form a reply. But I have been mulling this around in my mind.
I might say some hard things here. Or I just might ramble around for a while. Seems the thread has been focused mainly on running today's business better. (Making more coin)
I believe the focus of the thread should have been on
I'm 57 and in a semi panic...we don't have any money saved for retirement...
and never built an income stream that wasn't dependent on me and my skills
I, like many of us are in a similar position. We have modest retirement savings. Very small compared to what I could have had if I would have saved when I was young or if I had worked at a job that took money out of my paycheck since I was 20.
IMO at this point in life guys our age (I'm 53) should be looking at getting a secondary income stream going that can help us into retirement, give us some slack in our budget now.
And we also invested heavily in the farm...instead of banking money, we built a hayshed, a barn,4 generations of fencing including high end electric fences, a horse trailer,bought some horses.
That's great but who is going to profit from this investment? You don't have to answer on the forum or at all. Are your daughters going to be making you payments? Or are you going to get part of the income from this horse business?
We are mentoring our daughter's and they are developing a business plan and working on getting some grants...so our investment in the farm and their business may pay dividends in the future.
I think it is time that you start to take care of Phil and Min and looking at investing in ways that can provide income if you get hurt, start slowing down either in the body or in the motivation to work.
I'm 53 and I know I am not as strong in either area as I was 10 years ago. I get tired. And I get tired of solving everyone else's problems. Sometimes I just want to kick back and do BT or ride a bike or go fishing without thinking about doing estimates or making sure work is lined up for tomorrow.
At this time we are saving just over a $1,000 month. $600 in our Roth IRAs, $300 into a mutal fund and $150 into health savings account. I don't know what it is like in Canada but in the US the Social Security system is scheduled to be insolvent in about 2017 about the time I turn 61. And a guy is going to have a hard time living on SS alone.
Let's look at secondary income possiblities.
IRAs, mutual funds and CDs Just great but it takes some serious investing and some years of growth to get a substantial nest egg. Best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago and the 2nd best time is today. If I was you I would set up a plan to take X number of dollars a month and put it away whereever you are comfortable with. I would not put in tools or barns or other areas where you already have assets.
I would put it in a secondary place where it can grow independent of how well or how poorly the horse business or the handrail business does over the next few years.
Rental properties Good properties are hard to find in our area. People who make poor life choices are always going to need to rent a place to live. It takes some money and at times it can take alot of spare time. (This summer it has been all of my spare time.) You have to deal with alot of people and their problems. It can be very frustrating.
Another business As I say this I am thinking of the local Dairy Queen and when I go in there in the evening they are very busy and the only people running it are teenagers. How do people set up a business that can run on autopilot or be opened and closed by teenagers? I know it is not as simple as it looks and I have seen way too many coffe shop failures to think that this is a viable secondary option for you. This is where I get into rambling.
The HD kitchen install could fall into this category. I can't see it from the valley I am standing in. To do 4 a month and to have others install them on autopilot sounds kind of far fetched for a serious craftman like yourself. Most kitchen jobs are not a surgical strike. (Remove old cabinets and install new) Most have alot of collateral damage like tearing out walls, upgrades to plumbing, wiring, interior and exterior doors, windows and flooring.
On most of my kitchen jobs the hard stuff is all over and the easy work is to install some cabinets. Sorry I just don't see that kind of surgical strike kitchen work around here. When I get called in they are sick of more than just the cabinet boxes.
This is getting kind of long and I had better just post this. I would welcome more comments of other secondary income streams. I certainly did not put together an complete list and I would like to explore other ways that I could get another income stream going.
Rich
PS I think you/I have to focus on what we do best and have serious saving plan that we stick to.
Hi Rich,
great post, man. Lots to think about...I finally found the article from JLC about a contractor in a similar situation to me who wanted to grow his business ...who decided to install for HD. He developed an efficient system for installing and was able to make money on each install...MIPPlus it developed a completely different market than the one he was working in that 3 years later were turning into very good jobs...win/win.I talked to Min about it and I think after 4 or 5 installs, she would be able to do a basic install with low priced talent to help. Plus the girls would help...I have one subcontractor I can count on and I have enough contacts to
find lots of help...so I can always sub what I can't handle.Anyway, I sent off the paperwork...suppertime...I'll think about some of the things you mentioned.silver
phil
Anyway, I sent off the paperwork...
I'll pray for your success.
I'm glad you trusted us enough to put out the OP
What I said was friend to friend.
I am largely in the same boat as you
Rich
Don't worry Rich...you can't be too hard...this thread has really got me thinking and thinking is good as it will help to facilitate change in my life.As we know-insanity is doing the same things and expecting different results.Got a long way to go and a short time to get there...so just need a really good plan."What I said was friend to friend.I am largely in the same boat as you"Thanks for that Rich,Phil
I work with a guy who helps us as we flip houses.We work on vacant houses.We work any hours we want.This allows him to be free to bid other jobs and he bids them highIf he gets the job he takes a couple of days off and makes some great money and then he comes back to work with us at his convenienceA couple of months ago he remodeled a bathroom for someone for a weekA month or two ago he built a garage for someoneI just wanted to throw that out to you as not all jobs are flexible like this and you might want to think about something where you can bid the other jobs high and then be choosy and take the ones you want(rather than being stuck somewhere 8 to 5 where you punch a time clock
"I work with a guy who helps us as we flip houses.
We work on vacant houses.
We work any hours we want.
This allows him to be free to bid other jobs and he bids them high"This sounds like a pretty good plan...the market I'm in is unbelievable...houses are increasing in value every month.so I have thought about flipping houses...a good buddy of mine bought a firesale house for 19,000. and is putting it on the market for 85,000.this week. 4-1/2 bedrooms figures he'll make 20,000. profit...appeals to me...blue said he had read 50 books on the subject and I'll start by reading and see if this is something I could make work.We are masters of flex time. And there is something to be said to be in a position to bid high...thanks for your thoughts,silver
You are fortunate to be in a market where the prices of houses are increasing monthly but you also have to understand that at some point, it will stop. So, if you should decide to enter the market, you need to insulate yourself for the time when that happens, unless you have a substantial sum set aside to help you when that time comes.
If you decide to enter the real estate flip market, don't do it on your coin or credit. Since you've already said you are in a semi-panic, you can't overexpose yourself without putting yourself in a worse panic. Find someone that will finance all the deals for you for a split of the profits. Of course, make sure you pay yourself for any work done on these houses first.
You won't need to read fifty books but I'd suggest a minimum of twenty. Twenty will give you a broad basis of how these folks are getting the deals done. After reading and letting it settle inside you, you'll be able to choose a path that fits well with your skills and personality. For instance, I know that I would never want to be a residential landlord. But that wouldn't eliminate me from the residential lease option business.
Also, don't worry about finding someone to finance your deals. There is money everywhere. You won't find it till you start seeking it. It will all depend upon the deal. If the investors can make a little money, without involving themselves, they will fund your deals. Keep in mind that every investor will have a different opinion about what is fun, safe or profitable. So, when you talk to an investor, don't expect that they will buy into every plan. They won't but when the right plan crosses their desk, they'll invest. Remember, they really are investing in you first. If you have skill, integrity, and can put something in writing that makes sense, they'll be interested.
There was some great advice in your post,Jim... thank-you.What 5 real estate/investing books would you suggest?silver
very well said... It's not that i live in fear...
but i have seen way too many people either live way to long... or plan too little... either way the money runs out before the heart stops tick'n
Junkhound is the best at this... but I live it everyday also... what you don't spend... you don't have to make... at todays tax rate (which is sure to increase) you have to earn at least $1.50 for every $1 worth of product or service you consume or use... I'm sure we will see it @ $2 to $1 before too long...
I think my A.D.D has served me well... I don't do just one thing and never have... truth being I'll do anything... if it sounds fun... and it has the chance of put'n a few $$ in my pocket or building equity... i really don't care which...
I think your rentals are nuts on for most people on this board... yes they can be a PITA... but if you look at each property as it's own business... then time spent really isn't that great... arount hear you can buy pretty OK very low end property for less than 10k that rents for $450-700 mo... ($700 is if you furnish electric & water because many can't get utilities in their own name)... Hell the best bet is a trailer park... and i'm talk'n a trailer trash trailer park... 15yo trailers/Mobil homes smallest you can find... around here thats $175 a week... and come under "inn keeper" laws meaning... your #### is on the street if you don't pay... it's a new agreement each week...
it's hard but it's fair... there are ways for those with basic skills to put those skills to work where they pay them often vs just once for the job done...
p
ponytl
silver started this thread about planning for the future. It's a great topic. Most us tradesman are too busy putting out today's fires to plan for the future.
And then one day we wake up in the future. Semi panic.
around hear you can buy pretty OK very low end property for less than 10k that rents for $450-700 mo...
I would be happy if I could find one for $25-$30 K. Last auction I went to of a potential rental ( wrong side of the tracks) had about 12 landlords in attendance. The house had new shingles and vinyl siding. After that it needed new everything. Old lady lived there and it smelled like she was losing control.
The place went for $50,000. Average rent in town is $500 absolute top end is about $800. There is no way that is going to cash flow.
Hell the best bet is a trailer park... and i'm talk'n a trailer trash trailer park...
All my rentals are trailers. Old trailer park (133 lots) with mature trees and low lot rent. I don't want the 15 year old trailers. Too much Abitibi siding that goes bad. Alot of my trailers are from the 70s with metal siding.
I can buy them cheap, put in a new bathroom, do some upgrades to the kitchen and the flooring, sometimes new windows and I can have a 3 bedroom rental. 3 bedroom rentals are as rare as a unicorn in this town. All my units are on the edge of the court so they have pretty nice yards and privacy.
I have pretty good people right now and that's the key. Get good people and keep them happy with their home. Rent ranges from $325 to $475.
I was hoping people would chime in with secondary income stream ideas for Silver and the rest of us.
Have a nice day tomorrow.
Rich
Lot of good info in this thread
this is one I will need to re=read a couple of times
I'm with you there...good news is we're just warming up...silver
Phil<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->Well, what’s the conclusion from your latest soul searching?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->You don’t really have to answer. Just thought I would pop the question and find out what your current thinking is and what steps you are going to take to prepare yourself for the next 15 years of your life.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->Have a good day.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->Rich<!----><!---->
Hi Rich,Real summer today...hot for the first time this year...and I'm taking the rest of the week off.Starting a rail job next week...but I have been thinking and planning...and I think what has been missing in our market positioning is kitchens.We're lined up to start installing cabinets for Ho Depot...4 kitchens a month or so. I'll be showing Min all the tricks I know and we figure she'll be able to install with one helper down the road shortly. About a year ago we finished a hardwood floor and were starting on the 4" mdf base. I showed her how to miter and cope...she nodded... tried one and then just started cutting to my measurements. My customer, Hans, shows up about an hour later and watches her miter and cope for a while. Then Hans says-you make it look easy; to which Min spins around-hands on hips and says-Yeah I'm good and goes back to work. Which is to say she's a natural and will have no trouble installing cabinets.I plan to focus on higher end custom kitchens and hope to work with Emile, a kitchen designer with 20 years + of design/install experience.In 3 to 6 months I plan to sell 1 middle to high end kitchen a month at 15,000-20,000. Kitchens will be our main focus which seems natural for someone who has his carpenter and cabinetmakers papers with extensive woodworking experience so it's sticking to what I know.I'll still specialize in rails but I'll bid high on these so they are more lucrative.I also plan to add general contracting of kitchens ,renovations and additons to my scope of work as an interior renovation specialist.It's still a plan in process but this is what I'm thinking...I also would like to invest in real estate. I see how using someone else's money to buy a property for yourself is a great asset...but it's like eating an elephant at this point...I can't figure out how to make it bite size... silver
I see how using someone else's money to buy a property for yourself is a great asset...but it's like eating an elephant at this point...I can't figure out how to make it bite size...
Im curious about why you think it's a difficult thing to start doing. Like any business plan, you lay out the model, then you talk to potential investors.
jim
Im curious about why you think it's a difficult thing to start doing.
Becasue he onlyu has so much time in a day.
He is trying to get a new venture going with Min, he has the horses, the rail shop and real estate in new to him. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.
I would be very careful of going into real estate. There are many ways to get burned.
Rich
Like any business plan, you lay out the model, then you talk to potential investors.
That sounds easy enough...fear is a factor...of the unknown-what I don't know-I don't think being a landlord is my stroke-so ignorance of other real estate plans that would work...I've always been intrigued when I've read details of your plan...is there a good book that you would recommend?thanks,silver
I don't know any one book that will answer every question. I think any book by Peter Conti would point you in the right direction. I don't think Conti does landlording. Landlording is one segment of the real estate biz. I think there might be dozens of segments.
Peter Conti-right on-sounds like a good start-thankssilver
I probably read a couple dozen books before I discovered the Conti books. The thing that I liked most about the Conti information was his chapter on how to make the offer. His "system" takes you through the process from the moment you walk in the door to the time you walk out. He calls it his "instant offer system" and I know from experience that it is easy and it works.
One interesting thing about the offer system is that it is a valuable tool for selling almost anything. I find myself incorporating the principles and words when I'm selling other goods or services.
All of the elements of the "instant offer system" are offered in other books, seminars or sales training meetings. Conti just pulls it all together in one chapter that makes it very easy to see, understand, learn, implement, and have success with.
Exactly what I'm looking for,Jim.I've got a long ways to go and a short time to get there and I love cutting to the chase...and I like easy.I also could use a tuneup on my selling skills-I hate high pressure sales but I think I'm a bit too low key...and I plan on doing lots of selling... I'll check the library, Chapters and Amazon for Conti, read a few books and maybe start an investing for dummies thread. thanks!
silver
Phil
I'll post later.
I might pull a Silver and disappear into the IA cornfield for a couple od days. :)
I need to think before I post.
Rich
I might pull a Silver and disappear into the IA cornfield for a couple od days. :)that's funny right there-I didn't realize that was my MO <grin> silver
Did not wade thru the whole post, but the only time I ever made big $$ trades wise was building own home and refurbing one on the 'live in it for 2 years no capital gains tax" plan. Son and DIL lived in it at < 1/2 market rent for 2 years.
I'm in Canada so the capital gains laws are different...but I have the inclination, motivation and I'll make the time to research a real estate vehicle that will be the stroke for me...silver
Phil
I didn't realize that was my MO
It just means you have a life outside of BT. :)
Rich
Good evening Phil
I'm back out from the corn fields.
Thank you for the update on your current thinking.
I showed her how to miter and cope...she nodded... tried one and then just started cutting to my measurements.
Min sounds like a keeper. It is a great asset to have a helper like that.
For a man of your skills I find it hard to understand how or why you haven't been into kitchens and built-in before this. Maybe it is because I have such an eclectic business myself.
I have never said I am going to do, say kitchens and bathrooms, and then set out to do only those types of jobs. We kind of do what ever the cat drags in. Sometimes it's kitchens and baths and sometimes it roofing or barn steel.
I now have a customer base and a reputation that looks to me to solve their problems either in the house, outside of the house or on the farm.
Making money is only part of the solution. Putting it away in a systematic and disiplined way is the 2nd part of the plan. You have to commit to saving money or investing money where it will grow and where you can't tap into it when you need a new toy/tool.
By saying that you need to add kitchens to your work, are you saying that the railing business (or other shop work) is getting slow?
It would definetly be a plus if you can have Min installing cabinets with a helper.
All this kitchen stuff is probably going to involve you becomeing a GC on some jobs, lining up the drywall and the plumbing type stuff.
God bless your new ventures and may many kitchen follow you.
Rich
"For a man of your skills I find it hard to understand how or why you haven't been into kitchens and built-in before this. Maybe it is because I have such an eclectic business myself.I have never said I am going to do, say kitchens and bathrooms, and then set out to do only those types of jobs. We kind of do what ever the cat drags in. Sometimes it's kitchens and baths and sometimes it roofing or barn steel."I installed kitchens with a cabinet maker years ago and it stuck in my mind that kitchens seemed to go on and that you were at the mercy of a housewife going through the project drawer by drawer. I also had the false assumption that I had to custom build every kitchen. But after looking at the different phases of housebuilding, at this point in my life/career, I think kitchens make the most sense and dollars. And I too have taken willy nilly what has come to me and now I want more control over that by focusing mostly on kitchnens, where
the big bucks are. I never understood the value of marketing and thought that word of mouth was always the best way to go.I learned in the rail business that there is no money in new home installations. The big bucks in rails is in older homes owned by upper middle class couples over forty who both have well paying jobw. This is the demo graph that will pay to have their old rail torn out and what I like to sell as "built in furniture", their new rail supplied, finished in the shop for minimal mess and touched up. And I charge top dollar for that.So I would like to take that business model and apply it to kitchens where older folks are willing to drop some bucks to get what they want. My marketing will be targeted to this demograph. "Making money is only part of the solution. Putting it away in a systematic and disiplined way is the 2nd part of the plan." I think we have made some decent coin over the years...I see it invested in the kid's horse business...that was a choice we made-and still make-but it's time to move on.Now is time we are focusing on making and saving money for ourselves.The other reason I plan to focus on kitchens-big bucks projects that require my specific skill sets-very well organized,attention to detail, conscientious, able to work with miminal mess and disruption...I feel I have a valuable service that I can deliver in a timely manner on budget and with value.It' slow right now but my business has always been tied into my head...if I focus on renos, I start getting lots of calls for renos...in thinking mode, it takes a while to redirect the focus.. and the calls.This last week turned hot and I took off the sunny days to work on own place-how novel is that! Something we haven't done for ages and we're installing a hardwood floor in our office. The 5" maple was given to me by my super at a large American Eagle reno. "All this kitchen stuff is probably going to involve you becoming a GC on some jobs, lining up the drywall and the plumbing type stuff.God bless your new ventures and may many kitchen follow you."Thanks very much that...in the big picture, I enjoy doing a great job for customers that appreciate what I do for them.The kitchen is also the heart and soul of pretty well all homes and I look forward to enriching customer's lives in that way.Can't sleep tonight and I'm rambling...BTW, how do you turn HTML on??cheers!silver
Good Morning Phil
Caution I am going to step on your toes.
I think we have made some decent coin over the years...I see it invested in the kid's horse business...
It can only be called an investment if it grows in value and makes you a profit. Other wise it is just a liablity just like a truck that needs oil changes and repairs.
I believe in investing in my kids too. Because you want to launch them into the world with their life front loaded and not in debt. And you don't want them coming back and living off you when they are adults.
If the horses return you money then it is an investment, otherwise it is a hobby.
Sorry to be blunt.
BTW I don't know how to turn on the HTML and I don't understand what it does. I'm kind of puter studid.
Rich
Edited 8/15/2009 7:44 am ET by cargin
Blunt is always good, Rich...you can never be too blunt with me.We invested in their lives and their livelihood...Min has worked out a very elaborate business plan for the girls because they are applying for major grants...and it's a slow build but they will eventually make very good profit...over 200% per horse.We/they are improving our property and in their case-"taking ownership" I know we still subsidize their business,but in the future it's likely they will give us a foal with very good blood lines..they are breeding german riding ponies(1 of 2 breeders in Canada) and will soon own one of the world's finest GRP stallions, with the potential to sell his semen as well. Once trained and established in the show rings, these german riding ponies will sell for upwards of 15,000. Our first born filly is worth 10,000 at 6 months old, untrained. I see a foal every year for Min and I within the next 5 years...a very odd investment plan, but we have seen this model used by other horse people...Both of my daughter's plan to do this for a living...hobby? investment? One of them will probably take over the farm...when they came back from working on a breeding farm near Calgary Alberta they looked around and said-this place is worth a million bucks out west...and then decided to turn it into a breeding facility.It's all relative, Rich. I'm just coming into my own happiness if you will...I was thinking the other day,if someone offered me a billion dollars for this farm-would we take it??The answer-we all love it here...even with that money we need to live somewhere and this place is like heaven on earth to all of us.BTW,how do you get the blue writing?? cheers,silver
Phil
It sounds like you have found the right spot on this earth.
What were you thinking when you wanted to go to BC?
Rich
the grass is greener??the girls were training in Germany, Sky had an apartment in town and we became empty nesters...I've always wanted to go to BC and I thought I would just split and leave...I came close-shut down all my jobs here and friends were expecting me any day...It seems as you get older, the lessons come easier and faster...Min and I found our way back to the love we had shared and the rest unfolded...one of the reasons for my present perspective-I look around and count my blessings.silver
Phil
Here is a screen shot of using color in posts.
You highlight the sentence you want in color.
Above there is dialog boxes paragraph, Font, Size, Color.
Click on the arrow next to color and choose a color. I always use blue for other peoples' comments.
Your screen may look different than mine. Because you live in Canada? :)
Or because you have horse colored glasses on :)
Rich
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Phil
Check out this post on handrails.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=123433.1
Min and I found our way back to the love we had shared
One of the most important aspects of loving your job, your life, your situation is the love and support of your wife.
We keep it fresh by doing a date night once a week. Reading a marriage book together and attending marriage conferences.
One of the best books on marriage is Love and Respect.
http://www.loveandrespect.com/
Gotta go
Rich
Edited 8/16/2009 1:12 pm ET by cargin
When I was working for American Eagle last year, I invited the super and 2 carpenters I was working with back to the farm for a home cooked meal. They were working out of town and I figured they would appreciate it...they were from Michigan and Minnesota respectively.Anyway-they looked around our place and said-Phil you're living our dream...all 3 of them said it...I looked around with fresh eyes.after
that...
America's 78 million baby boomers are richer than any group in history; the group controls 50% of all U.S. discretionary income and accounts for 75% of drug spending. As an investor you cannot afford to ignore this demographic in the coming years and where they will be spending their retirement money.The article goes on to say they will also spend $$$ on travel and leisure.I have to laugh-this was the next thing I read after posting...I'm thinking improving their kitchens will be one of the things they do-often after the kids leave is when they decide to spend money on
themselves. silver