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Discussion Forum

Single Phase to Three Phase

| Posted in General Discussion on May 4, 2001 05:48am

*
I’ve been rewiring the 3 car garage for my new shop. I got a 100 Amp sub-panel installed, a gazillion outlets, 240 Outlets all over the place, and great lighting. (Don’t worry, AJ my electrician did it all–However I DID fill in the trench by myself 🙂 ).

Now, as I’m about to button up the place, a friend rushes to my house to let me know that a cabinet making friend is shutting down shop and wants to get rid of all of his “industrial” 3-phase woodworking machines…My question is HOW DIFFICULT/EXPENSIVE WOULD IT BE HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN WIRE FOR 3 PHASE?

I don’t know nuttin about 3 phase–perhaps someone could enlighten me…Thanks.

Newman

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  1. Joe_Hennessey | Apr 23, 2001 04:45pm | #1

    *
    Newman, Call your power company, three phase is not available in residential neighborhoods here (Southern Calif). JoeH

    1. diddidit_ | Apr 23, 2001 05:16pm | #2

      *There are converters available, I think they are just a single-phase motor driving a 3-phase generator. Another option, though, is a variable frequency drive. Usually, those work by converting 3 phase to DC and then back to 3 phase with variable frequency, but if you oversize the unit you can start with single phase and still get 3 phase out. One concern with this is that the output is not a true sine wave voltage, so you may shorten motor life. The only manufacturer I can think of off the top of my head is Electromotive.did

      1. CaseyR_ | Apr 23, 2001 06:22pm | #3

        *Around here I can get 3-phase to my shop, but the electric utility wants about $2,000 for the extra transformers and running the extra wire about 200 ft. And they also want an additional $20 per month surcharge for 3-phase service over and above any usage charges. There are several types and configurations of single to 3-phase converters. I plan on making one out of an old 10 hp 3-phase motor that I have. The following are my bookmarked links to 3-phase converters. I haven't look at these for over a year so hope they are still good. They also do not include info on the newer all electronic converters that are supposedly dropping in price. http://web.wt.net/~hmsc/phconv/phconv.htmhttp://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.htmlhttp://www.theoak.com/specific/msgtools/393.htmlhttp://www.gwm4-3phase.com/u&s_index.htmSome info on 3-phase powerhttp://www.franklinelect.com/Manual/AIM_29.htm

        1. Chris_Koehn | Apr 23, 2001 06:45pm | #4

          *My dad installed 3 phaze in our basement when I was a kid. He used a converter (and an electrician) and didn't tell the power company, because the city also had regulations against 3 phaze in a residential area, supposedly to discourage too much industry and noise. You would throw a big lever switch on the converter to start up the motor. He ran a Bridgeport mill, 2 South Bend lathes, etc etc, for years without difficulty.

          1. John_Sprung | Apr 23, 2001 10:07pm | #5

            *I had a friend who did the Bridgeport and lathe thing in his garage. He found the most cost effective thing to do was to sell the three phase motors and buy single phase motors.-- J.S.

          2. Kyle_Bartlett | Apr 23, 2001 11:07pm | #6

            *Everyone is right 3 phase power is probably expensive to install and might not be avalible anyway. Converters work well too but there are extremly inefficient. But if you can get 3 phase power it is very efficient, motors are cheaper to buy and repair which keeps machinery costs down and because the motors are so much more efficient it may even keep down that crazy electric bill down. One thing with 3 phase motors the breakers will be smaller. For example if a single phase 5 H.P. motor draws 30 amps full load at 240 volts, a three phase motor will draw half that, 15 amps and if you get 480 volts again you divide that figure by 2. I wouldn't recommend 480 though because you would need another transformer installed in your shop to bring it back down to 240 to run lights, outlets and single phase equipment. One simple way to figure out if it is avaliable in your area is if you have overhead wires in your area look at them, if there are two wires it is not availble if there are four call your power company about an installation.

          3. Joe_Hennessey | Apr 23, 2001 11:25pm | #7

            *Casey is right, the Edison company charges me a "3 phase surcharge" every month too. Motors are cheaper, but by the time you pay all the extras for a new install you could probably cover the cost of the motors anyway.Besides, you built a 3 car garage for a shop. Where you gonna put all this big equipment you're thinking of buying? JoeH

          4. Don_Papenburg | Apr 24, 2001 01:44am | #8

            *Joe that equipment goes in the new addition to his three car garage.

          5. Ryan_C | Apr 24, 2001 01:56am | #9

            *We've used solid state converters to drive three phase motors off of single phase before. All they are is a bank of capacitors to shift the sine wave alittle and create a third leg. But they're not very efficient and don't work on real big motors. I'd definately replace the motors.

          6. L._Siders | Apr 24, 2001 06:10am | #10

            *I think a 5 HP moter is all you want to run off of a converter.. Thats what an Elec. Engineer tol me. Who Knows for sure?

          7. Ryan_C | Apr 24, 2001 12:58pm | #11

            *Bigger loads can be run on the rotary converters (sorry if someone already said this. These look just like electric motors there's a set of wires for the single phase to run the thing (it turns just like a motor while it's running) and another set for 3phase out. Expensive.

          8. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 24, 2001 01:37pm | #12

            *Newman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Go to the closest chalkboard and write the following...a hundred times...Fine HomeBuilding...I'll start it for yaa...Cause I am a nice guy...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...Fine HomeBuilding...near the interesting...but rediculous...stream,aj

          9. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 24, 2001 01:40pm | #13

            *hey...I do think this topic is interesting...But as was said...the idea is not cost effective...not legal....not safe for future owners...and on and on...interesting armchair electrimacution spitle...near the stream,aj

          10. PNut_ | Apr 24, 2001 04:02pm | #14

            *Hey AJ--Do you have a hard-on for me or what? Once again, I thank you for your informative reply. Sheesh.I always considered electricity to be an integral part of homebuiliding--Kinda like plumbing. Both of these seem to be modern day conveniences that you may have ovelooked in YOUR home building...you may want to bone up on these new-fangled inventions--they really make modern day living much easier. PLUS, when you use electricity, you don't have to fool around with those messy Kerosene lamps...AND if you install modern day plumbing and stop crapping in your backyard, you'll keep that stream of yours crystal clear. In the meantime stop drinking from it...your abdominal cramps are stinking up the place.Thanks to everyone else for your input...I truly appeciate it. I've followed up with some suggestions and found out the following:1. It IS legal: Called my building inspector--turns out my house is zoned both residential AND commercial.2. It IS available in my area: Called my utility company and it is available, but at a cost of about 2K (This may be worth it since I'm getting about 30K worth of machines for nuttin).3. Many converters available out there that are also legal according to my building inspector...and relatively inexpensive (less than 2K PLUS no surcharges from the utility company).Hope this helps others who my be considering the same...Newman

          11. Allyson_Stiles | Apr 24, 2001 04:07pm | #15

            *Don't worry about AJ the bozo, Newman. You just brought up something he knows nothing about. Happens often.****ing in his stream as we speak,Billy

          12. Joe_Hennessey | Apr 24, 2001 04:11pm | #16

            *Newman, $30K of free equipment puts a whoooooooooole different shine on this question. If the costs are comparable,I'd go with the 3 phase installed, not the phase convertor. It's one more big heavy thing you really don't have room for now, unless you can find a used one really cheap. I see AJ enlightened no one, only left his usual asinine crap. It's not you Newman, it's him with a problem, near his stream of spittle. JoeH

          13. John_Sprung | Apr 24, 2001 08:35pm | #17

            *Newman --It's not the machines, just the motors. Make a list of all the motors on the machines, and shop around. Here there are lots of little shops that buy and sell used motors. Compare the price of the single phase motors minus what they'll give you for your three phase with the $2k it would cost to get the three phase service. The decision will probably be clear.-- J.S.

          14. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 24, 2001 11:13pm | #18

            *Bullpatootie Hennessey...I said the thread is interesting...I also am of the opinion that the idea is basically bad....but possibly OK if Newman can pull off the free thing and now that he says he is commercially zoned...It still aint FHB...Ir's Fine SHop Building...near the stream,ajHey yaa amatuer electramacutionist wanna be's trio...My posts are not flames...learn to read. They are just my opinion....Yaa don't have ta agree...but yaa might wanna get a sense of humor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          15. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 24, 2001 11:19pm | #19

            *newman....just teasing yaa for the way past how to run 12-2 questions!Listen...Gets a sense of humor!I see yaa posted the info that makes your idea almost sensible...Go for it Newman if all works out to get the machinery for nuttin..I'll take a lathe if there is a spare.Near tne stream posting to my buddy, 3-phase Newman,ajbe nice...now...I got's a humor bone too!

          16. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 24, 2001 11:27pm | #20

            *Allyson.....learn to post with at least a funny bone...or I'm gonna cut off your supply of alter boys....near the 3-phase stream,ajAs I said...Newbuddy...yaa sound like yaa got a good thing going now that yaa filled in the missing info...Yaa might still think of going with single phase motors...Especially if you only use the tools a few hours a month...

          17. Dave_Arbuckle | Apr 24, 2001 11:34pm | #21

            *I'm curious, what would make 220v 3 phase electricity more dangerous than 220v single phase electricity?Newman, you're lucky. I know a gent here in the Dallas area, got a quote of $27,000 from Texas Electric to run him 3 phase. ;-)Dave

          18. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 24, 2001 11:41pm | #22

            *Dave....the next homeowner may not know that there is 3-phase...and whack himself wiring to the wrong wires...I just think 3-phase is not to be mingled in a residential setting...Now if it goes to a dedicated panel in a commercial facility that happens to have a home too...then fine...label well.near the stream,aj

          19. Ryan_C | Apr 25, 2001 01:26am | #23

            *If there's only single phase in a residential area (meaning only two hot wires), the power company can still hook you up for three phase using what they call "open delta". I used to know how they wired this using two transformers but just tried it on paper and can't get it to work for me now. My dad had this done to get three phase for some blowers on the farm when I was a kid.

          20. Brent_Hornick | Apr 25, 2001 01:47am | #24

            *Hey Newman,If you leave the motors 3 phase and re wire the shop you will be alot happier.1. 3 phase motors are quieter and run smoother creating less vibrations to the tool bits.2. They are cheaper to service, build and/or replace. The worst you can really do is have to change out some $5 bearings unless you fry the windings.3. As they are fitted in your machines already you will not have to shop for single phase motors with the same frame size and mounting bracket or modify the machine to fit a new style motor.4. Converters are large and a pain in the arse and will not be cheaperas they draw more power than they output (simple law of inefficiencies when transfering power)5. An MG set (motor Generator) using single phase motor to drive 3 phase generator is also expensive.6. You will have to have a dedicated panel in the shop for the 3 phase and this is better as you can have a seperate meter to keep track of usage. The 3 phase is easily divided out into 120, and 240 single phase runs for outlets.7. if you go with the single phase you may need to have your original motors re-wound to single phase (not cheap)I think your lucky and should go for it. Just remember if your motor runs backwards change two leads and it will run the other way.

          21. Joe_Hennessey | Apr 25, 2001 03:42am | #25

            *AJ, your rants went past any hint of humor long ago.You make an ass of yourself and blame others. Whether or not this question has anything to do with what you consider to be "Fine Homebuilding" is of no interest. Your tennis courts and docks interest me not, so what? You've been all over this guy since his first post,why? What gives you any right to dish out your crap to anyone here? You take a dislike to a poster and crap on them again and again while others apologize for your drivel. You're a blowhard, and apparently a mean drunk too come Friday & Saturday night. Up yours, Joe H

          22. p_m | Apr 25, 2001 04:18am | #26

            *I think you need a different forum.Try this-http://www.chaski.com/wwwboard/machine/index.htmlI'm not sure what will happen but Chaski is the general board. On the left is bulletin boards. Click on "Machine tools (reopened)"This should get you to that forum which is mainly concerned with machinerery such as engine lathes. But a lot of them use 3 phase power and will clue you in better than I can or even AJ.Basically the scenario is you get a 3 phase machine. Your choices are 1) Change the motor to single phase.2) Get some 3 phase power somehow.There are about exactly three ways you can do this.1) Get your power company to supply it. As mentioned above, this may be expensive.2) Get a Variable Frequency Drive. I have no idea how much these cost, but these machinists seem to like them. You can vary the speed of your machine. They seem to take 1 phase power, convert it to DC and then invert that into 3-phase. You can evidently twist aknob and vary the speed.3) The home brew method uses 1 phase to power a 3 phase motor which somehow puts out 3 phase juice. The "Machine tools (reopened)" site should lead you to other sites with specific diagrams and other such details.Hope this helps.-Peter

          23. Frank_DuVal | Apr 25, 2001 05:02am | #27

            *p.m.Item 3 you have as home brew is the commercially available Rotary Converter! Of course one could get a three phase motor bigger than the the machine motor and kludge some capacitors and inductors to get it to start, this would be the home brew method, not recomended.aj:I have seen a few homes in the Richmond area that have 3 phase power. With homes this size, I don't think the owner will be giving up his golf and private jet time to do his own wiring though. They would be in the Fine Homebuilding classification.Frank DuVal

          24. Ryan_C | Apr 25, 2001 12:56pm | #28

            *Ome more note. someone said that you can also get 120 & 240 single phase off of a three phase system. Not always true.You can get single phase out of three phase systems but it's not usually half the three phase voltage. If you're lucky enough to have 250V 3phase motors, they can provide you a neutral wire to give you single phase 125V but otherwise, Typical voltages are 277V & 208V. Alot of commercial equipment runs on these voltages but I wouldn't think they'd be worth much in a home.

          25. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 25, 2001 02:04pm | #29

            *pm...Excellant post...And exaclty what I am saying....Newman...pm is your man....I'll write that on the board a million times for yaa...Joe H...your post is hateful. Hit the ignore button buddy...or go find your dog and kick it somemore.I kid harshly...but sometimes reality bites....newman is a great guy and has been very civil with me...Thank you Newman...you are on my A list...I now know yaa like to experiment and all...take risks...So do I bro...Come ski with me in deep powder in the trees that are as tight as joe's whoopy spot...hey all...enjoy your day and your posting...I do...near the stream,ajOh.and my new pup Alaska...juuust gets kisses from me!...Is learing to ride the tractor...Hang gliding soon I bet.ryan...frank...great posts also.

          26. SamD_ | Apr 25, 2001 02:22pm | #30

            *AJ, You and those damn skis... Come dirtbiking with me and I'll show you some tight trees.... Sam

          27. Art_B | Apr 25, 2001 03:58pm | #31

            *Ryan: I believe you couldn't get a open delta connection from single phase to work on paper because you need any 2 phases of a 3 phase system to use the open delta configuration -- the rating is 58% of the 2 transformers used.

          28. Paul_Weber | Apr 25, 2001 07:26pm | #32

            *Three phase power is generally reserved for industrial and commercial use. All of your three phase motors will require motor starters with individual disconnects. This equipment is by no means cheap even if you are obtaining the shop machinery for free. Refer to Article 430 of the National Electric Code for information on motor circuits and controllers.

          29. Frank_DuVal | Apr 26, 2001 06:12am | #33

            *Paul,Even single phase motors of modest size will require magnetic motor starters. The size of the motor starter (NEMA Size) for a given horsepower will be smaller for a three phase motor than a single phase motor. So, the three phase system may cost less.Ryan,Never heard of or sold a 250 volt 3 phase motor. If one wants to have a three phase service with 120/240 volt capability, one just asks the power company to install it. This would be a delta system with the bottom of the delta being the 120/240 split, center tap being the grounded neutral conductor. This gives 240 volt three phase for mototrs, and 120/240 volts for single phase uses. The Y system has the center of the Y as the grounded neutral conductor, and if you have 120 volts from the ground to any phase, applying the square root of 3 you get 208 volts phase to phase. Similarly, if there is 460 volts phase to phase on a Y system, the phase to neutral voltage is 277 volts, a very common lighting circuit in industrial/ commercial uses. Just ask for a delta when talking to the power company, it is very common in small commercial applications.Frank DuVal

          30. Ken_McWilliams | Apr 26, 2001 12:58pm | #34

            *Newman,Don't be discouraged by the replies. Making a 3 phase converter is quite simple. Also, there are many solid state 3 phase converters that will do the job. A 3 phase converter to drive a 5 HP motor is around $500.I've run my shop off of a home-made 3 phase converter for almost 20 years with no problems. I used another 3 phase motor as the converter. Usually, you'll get about 80% torque from this type of converter, but unless you're using the equipment to the extreme you'll never notice. I have 4 pieces of equipment (Bridgeport mill, lathe, surface grinder, and 10" bench grinder)that are 3 phase and are operated off of a converter.Ken McWilliamsDayton, [email protected]

          31. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Apr 26, 2001 01:27pm | #35

            *My bud does the bike...trees thing up to like 60mph...scares the bejeeses outa me...!near the stream,aj

          32. Bucksnort_Billy | Apr 26, 2001 10:42pm | #36

            *Newman, I've been running a 3hp/3phase 12" Northfield jointer in my shop for so long that I can't even remember how I hooked it up. I think it was a long ago Taunton article, that was actually in Fine Home Building first. I got a 10hp 3ph motor for 75 bucks and crank it with an old washing machine motor, it runs the jointer great. Dirt cheap converter, and no electromucutions.30k worth of tools for free, go for it!Holly

          33. Don_Rogers | May 03, 2001 01:45pm | #37

            *NewmanI've been running the 3ph machines in my shop for about 6 years now off a phase converter (single in, three out). 3ph equipment consists of a 14" jointer/thicknesser, sliding table saw, drum sander, overhead router & dust extracter. I got a converter big enough to handle the load from the dust extracter & any two other machines. So far no problems but as Ken says torque is down but so far only really noticeable when rip sawing big stuff, the other machines don't appear to be affected. If I had the choice I'd get a 3ph supply into the shop but because we are out in a rural area my elec co can only get me 2ph.

          34. Allan_Marsh | May 04, 2001 05:48am | #38

            *Newman,One thing I didn't see anyone else mention was that for a given HP and RPM the single phase motors will usually be physically larger. You might want to check this out first if you have tight clearances near the existing three phase motors. Otherwise single/ three phase is an economic decision. 30k of free tools? I wish this problem on everyone I know including myself!Allan

  2. PNut_ | May 04, 2001 05:48am | #39

    *
    I've been rewiring the 3 car garage for my new shop. I got a 100 Amp sub-panel installed, a gazillion outlets, 240 Outlets all over the place, and great lighting. (Don't worry, AJ my electrician did it all--However I DID fill in the trench by myself :-) ).

    Now, as I'm about to button up the place, a friend rushes to my house to let me know that a cabinet making friend is shutting down shop and wants to get rid of all of his "industrial" 3-phase woodworking machines...My question is HOW DIFFICULT/EXPENSIVE WOULD IT BE HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN WIRE FOR 3 PHASE?

    I don't know nuttin about 3 phase--perhaps someone could enlighten me...Thanks.

    Newman

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