We have a brand new timber framed barn style home that is sheathed and roofed with SIP panels. The home is located north of Boston along the coast.
The roof shingles are buckling in a straight line along joints where the panels connect. The panels are vertical panels. To use the language found here the roof is a “hot” roof. There is heavy tar paper between the OSB panels and the shingles.
Any thoughts as to what might be happening?
Thanks
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Replies
Are you looking for a remedy or have you determined how to proceed?
What is happening is that the panels are moving.
A -Maybe they are expanding or contracting - not likely
B - Maybe they are not welll fastened to the timber frame
C - Maybe there is no frame and the panels are overspanned
D - Maybe 5the timber frame is poor and moving
E - Maybe the edge joints were not sealed against air/moisture and moisture/heat is migrating out and pushing
F - Other
G - Pick any combination of the above.
Tell more about the design, and history of this structure and how it came to be erected.
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The frame was erected in May of 2006. The SIP's were installed soon after. The roof was completed in June 2006.The timberframe is a gluelam frame. It was designed and purchased a few years ago but was not used by the owner. We bought it from the original owner. It had been stored tightly wrapped but outside for at least a year.The frame has been drying out a bit. Occassionally a check will appear along the face of one of the beams. More troubling is that there have been some loud cracking noises and some of the glue joints between the 2x's are showing a small amount of signs of pulling apart. Nothing more than a piece of paper might be slipped a fraction of an inch into but the glue joints are clearly a potential issue here.I have attempted to upload a photo of the roof that hopefully will clarify the problem. I personally think that it is heat migrating through the roof panel joints somehow. The photo was taken today in 10 Farneheit temps.Thanks
Edited 1/26/2007 2:00 pm ET by KLawler
I thought seeing the frame might help. There are 5 roof panels across. The roof frame does not fall under any of the joints.
Edited 1/26/2007 1:59 pm ET by KLawler
If you want us to look at them, you gotta post reasonable sized pics. those are WAY too big.
I have feelings too. I am still human. All I want is to be loved, for myself and for my talent. [Marilyn Monroe]
I clicked on them in preview and they looked like the got re-sized to fit the window. My apologies...
If you repost 'em at 800X600 or 1024X768, or around 100K, you'll have many times as many people look at them.It's the size of the FILE that's the problem, not the size of the picture.
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I hope this is a little better.
It doesn't look like the frame has anything to do with this. How were the panels fastened together? It almost looks like they weren't.http://logancustomcopper.com
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It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
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KLawler--
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Shingle ridging is caused by heat escaping from the house, or worse moisture accumulation. It can also be caused by substrate movement. It’s not a strictly SIP phenomenon, however you do want to get it checked out.
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Couple questions -- Do you know the SIP manufacturer and/or the installers?
jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
I think you are right. Yes, we do know the SIP manufacturer and the installer. They are great people and are highly regarded. They are not new to this. I know we will have a solution by spring but it's good to be armed with knowledge. Thanks for your responses thus far.
On the couple of SIP houses I was on a long time ago, we bituthane taped all the joints and at that time the factory edge of the panels were all keyed. Not much information for you but that's all I got.
Best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
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Those file sizes are just right!It is clear that the problem is worse at the top than lower down, suggesting that escaping heat and maybe vapour is the cause of the problem.Also - th eseams where the buckling occours do not align with the beam layout, so there could well be movement panel to panel if they were poorly joined, which also coincides with the heat escape probability.
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The first one is a full resolution clipped image to so one seam.The 2nd is clipped just to show the house and reduced resolution..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You've clearly got roof gophers digging around under the shingles. Get a big cat.
That ain't my roof, but some of those do look like they are big enough for a mole run..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It could be heat migrating thru the joints combined with shrinking movement in the frame.But there is no way I'll tie up my dialup connection and browser for the next 45 minutes to download those photos.
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Klawler,
Part of the problem is that shingles shouldn't be on that roof, er they need something to lift them off. I used hand split wood shakes and put a cedar breather under mine to prevent that sort of problem..
Second I suspect but don't know since I wasn't there that the contractors failed to put a vapor barrier underneath the panels as the manual calls for, instead they counted on the foam to act as their vapir barrier and clearly as you can see it didn't work.
Third it takes a great deal of effort to pull panels together properly. the adhesive needs to be properly spread. the splines need to be the correct size, any one of those things could be causing the syptom you show
Where would the vapor barrier go? Would it go between the ceiling drywall and the OSB of the panel? If so how would you do that with the beams in the way?I doubt moisture is playing much of a role yet. I'm sure it will in the future if it's not rectified. It looks like it is heat escaping at those joints causing the shinlges above to expand. One solution we have discussed is to fir out the roof and put a second layer of plywood that would act as a cold roof. My suspicion is that his is what will happen.I am very surprised that heat is able to travel through the plaster, drywall and 8" of plywood and foam. I saw the guys pulling the panels together. They looked like they took some care to spline, foam and then cover the underneath side of the joint with a liquid material of some sort.
Actually yes!
When I did my SIP roof (see, I know what I'm talking about) I put the vapor barrier under the sheetrock and left a flap so when the next panel went in place I could tape that up and tuck it under the beam. Important that there is a continous vapor barrier clearly what you have is vapor at the seam forcing the shingles up.
IN retrospect if I had it to do all over again, I'd lay the panels horizontal. Then only the area under the beam rather than the full length would have been difficult to do.
Laying it horizontal does several other things as well. Instead of spending a great deal of time clamping panels together in a futile effort to get the glue to squeeze evenly, I'd let gravity do that for me. In addition once the first panel was laid down it would hold all the other panels in place making it far easier to assemble. I know what the manual says but if you study it from an engineering stand point it's actually stronger that way than vertically..
Finally moisture is far higher when the house is new than as it dries out.. Timbers that feel dry to the touch can easily have 20% moisture in them and given a timberframe that's a lot of moisture! add all the moisture in sheetrocking and painting plus whatever moisture is in interior stud walls etc. (lumberyard wood is 19% moisture and that's if it's kiln dried)
"from an engineering stand point it's actually stronger that way than vertically.."Study it for me. I don't believe it.SIPs are strong as they are made. They transfer loads across the space they span.What that span is, whether in the vertical or the horizontal mode is based on how the timber frame is designed. That frame does not make the SIPS more or less strong. They are what they are.
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Piffan,
I see what you are saying,, no you are correct the timberframe doesn't make the SIP stronger, but the package would be stronger. (A case where the total is greater than the sum of it's parts. sort of like a TGI is stronger than the strength of it's parts)
I was told by the manufacturer to put my panels vertically. I think they are like 25 feet long I suppose I could dig it up and give the exact length but what the heck. close enough.. That means there is 42 inches unsupported down the whole 25 foot length. If I'd laid them horizontally the longerst span that would have been unsupported would have been that same 42 inches.. sure it would be the 42 inches times the 25 feet but with spines horizontally rather than vertically cutting up each into a 48 inch segment.
K...
<<<I doubt moisture is playing much of a role yet. I'm sure it will in the future if it's not rectified. It looks like it is heat escaping at those joints causing the shinlges above to expand. One solution we have discussed is to fir out the roof and put a second layer of plywood that would act as a cold roof. My suspicion is that his is what will happen.>>>
i think moisture IS your big culprit
do some google research on the SIPs failure in Alaska... your's looks like a classic example
there is no reason your roof should be exhibiting that failure if everything is kosher
i think you have open joints.. i know you have open joints
and heat will not puff up your asphalt shingles either
as for frenchy and his wood shingles... BS.. 99% of SIPs roofs are done with asphalt
send a picture of your roof to Branch River Foam and see what they have to sayMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Smith,
I'm not sure why you are saying BS to my wood shingles.. I do have them. I hope you don't think I suggested that they are the solution because you're right they aren't. What I was saying is that I raised my shakes off the deck of the roof with cedar brather, something like that should be done at a minimum. Asphalt shingles shouldn't be on the laid directly on a hot roof.. they'll last longer that way..
I do agree with you that open joints are the culprit. Some might think that since the joints are over beams that's gonna stop vapor from getting out.. you and I both know that's not the case.
frenchy..
<<<Part of the problem is that shingles shouldn't be on that roof, er they need something to lift them off. I used hand split wood shakes and put a cedar breather under mine to prevent that sort of problem..>>>
i misunderstood you to be saying that asphalt shingles shouldn't be on that roof
as for wood shingles.. you're right .. they should be on cedar breather or on skip sheathing.. but it has nothing to do with hot roof /vs/ cold roof
it has to do with the shingles needing to dry from the back after they have been soaked in the rain / snow
hot roof / cold roof .. all of the roofing experts and researchers are now saying that "hot roofs " are not that much hotter than cold roofs.. and the difference in longevity is almost not measurable
the temperature of the shingle has MORE to do with the shading, orientation, the climate, and the color of the shingle than it has to do with hot roof / cold roof
or vented vs non-vented
uh.. you could look it upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
K... i think this pic tell the story
View Image
i'd have the mfr's rep out there and up on a ladder with a ridge hook
i'd be working about 3' from the ridge and i'd open up that seam , i'd cut out the plywood and a large chunk of the seam say 12" x 12" right thru the roof..
i think your seams are letting interior air out .. with a sips roof there is no DIFFUSION all the vapor can only move thru the seams ... OR... get recycled back into the interior if there is no path
i see paths.. there they are...
AND this sounds like the ALASKA case
i think SIPS are great..one of these days i'll use some.. i see them used all the time around Rhode Island with no problems
but in your case... you have either a failed product.. or a failed installation
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Where can I find the thread on the Alaska case?
i don't know about the thread.. but here's the SIPA report i got form google
http://www.sips.org/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?tabID=0&ItemID=45&mid=11127Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Why aren't you on the links - It's a golfer's day here if there ever was one for this time of year.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
it's 20 deg, overcast.. you're right... i should be out there
however... my main man is at Disney World with his grandkids
da noive a some peopleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike!
Elk and Certainteed will honor their warranty on a hot roof install, but, I think they are the only ones...at least that's what our foam intaller is telling me.As far as the problem at hand, something's getting out those seams...I'm betting an installation issue. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Mike Smith,
That's news about hot roof/ cold roof. Every single thing I've ever read warns of the dangers of laying roofing on a hot roof..
I certainly can agree that color and sun orientation etc. makes a great differance, but shouldn't something be done to allow the back side of shingles and the top of plywood to dry out between rains or whatever? Can you tell me where to read more about this? Last I heard shingle manufactures weren't honoring warrantees on hot roofs.
Of course it's been a while since I did my research.. Don't expect to be doing the roofing for a while so if it'sdifficult don't bother..
<<back side of shingles and the top of plywood to dry out between rains or whatever>> of course you are only talking about wood shingles
asphalt shingles don't get wet on the back unless the roof has failed
wood shingles get wet on the back when thye become saturated.. so.. yes .. they will fail prematurely unless they are installed with an air passage on the back.. such as provided by Cedar Breather or Skip sheathing
lot's of shingle mfr's ARE honoring warranties on hot roofs.. if they don't they will lose market share
AND as the new research becomes better distributed, i think mfr's and code will stop requiring ventilated roofs
a lot of code officials will accept non-ventialted roofs if you can demonstrate alternate technologyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Some might think that since the joints are over beams..."Take another look - these joints are NOT over beamsI don't know if you had some of my earlier comments in mind here, but in mentioning beams, my thoughts were as to whether these SIPS were fastened down and together adequatly and splined correctly to resist movement.
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Piffan.
I'll go back. I don't remember seeing any pictures of the assembly going together.
OK I see the problem Took forever for the picture to down load, I had to try several times..
Water vapor soaks into the osb.. slides along the OSB untill it reaches the joiint and then pressure forces it up up and away..
Edited 1/27/2007 6:41 pm ET by frenchy
I'm sure you know more than me but how does moisture "puff up" the shingles. I'm seriously not arguing just inquiring.I have another photo that I found that shows how the joints were handled from the inside. The only way to see it clearly is to post the full picture which is rather large. I apologize in advance for this.A cuople of more facts. The house is heated with radiant floor heat on the first floor (concrete floor). There is a gas burning fire place. There is a device for bringing in outside air which is tempered by the exhaust air. The upper floors are heated with forced hot air but have never been turned on because the first floor keeps the whole building comfortable somehow.
Woowee, the size of that pic 'bout froze the puter.
View Image
---Never show a fool a half finished job---GrampsyI feel like a bunny in a hillbilly meadow at noon..........jjwalters
Thanks Rez. That's the detail I wanted you all to see. It shows a gap between the panels very clearly. The other thing this shows is the material which was/is essentially bitchathane. If it didn't stop it here I doubt it would be good practice to put it on the roof and trap the moisture inside. Any thoughts?This is actually my fathers house. He and I own the property together. We run our rep business out of the light green building in front. I was the one pushing heavily for the SIP panels because I have been reading about them for years. The builder wanted to stick frame. It was even cheaper to do it conventionally but the energy efficiency argument won out. We all love the end result including the economy of the building and the comfort as well as decreased noise from the street. We know this because the shed addition on the side is conventionally framed (2x6) and the street is louder in that room.It snowed last night - about an inch. A few weeks ago we got an inch and I noticed the roof had melt lines in the same place as the now famous shingle ridging. Today I drove by and there are no melt lines. I have a sneaky suspicion that the ventilation system was not turned on until recently. My father believes it has been on since they moved in in December though.I'm still confused as to how to make sure this is rectified properly. It would be awful to try and fix from inside but fixing it from the outside may make it worse for the panels themselves by trapping moisture. I'll try and update you when the weather warms up and we can get people up there to inspect it safely.
KLawler,
It can only be repaird from the inside. the solution is to install a vapor barrier (plastic sheet) to prevent the vapor from coming thru the seam..
You can't just tape the seams. Vapor will enter the OSB as moisture, wick it's way to a place where it can escape and then go up and raise the roofing as it's clearly done in this case..
Believe it or not it will wick thru those big timbers as well. Only you can decide if you should have them pull the SIP's and do the job really correctly or if you can accept a less than prefect repair that leaves the area under the beams capable of accepting the moisture in the house and wicking on to the outside.
I understand what a stretch that is, I mean you are sitting there wondering how water (another word for moisture) gets thru those beams into the OSB and then up thru the seams to the roof..
Let me try to explain how, timbers start out with say 25% moisture, varies depending on a lot of factors..
All of that moisture works it's way out eventually which also means that moisture can work it's way thru the wood..
Having a hard time believing me? Look at a waterlogged log. Starts out with wood dry enough to float, winds up sinking to bottom..
You can fix the cosmetic damage from the outside, but the moisture is coming from the inside.
If you don't cure that, someday you will be replacing the entire roof structure.
Joe H
Your description suggests that they did the right things to secure that joint, but the evidence of the pictures says that they didn't do it very well, in spite of their reputation.Doing a cold roof over will solve the symtom, but not the problem. There is heat pushing moisture up there and that moisture is going to be feeding mold soon if it isn't already.
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http://www.google.com/search?q=SIPs+%2B+mold+%2B+juneau&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialhttp://www.sipweb.com/2001-10_juneau.pdf
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I am not a roofer, nor do I play one on TV - I have, however slept at a Holiday in in the past.
The problem is not in your shingles or your SIP.
During installation, the joints between the SIP's were not sealed adequately against moisture passage. The felt paper under the shingles expanded causing the ridges. It does not retract when it dries. No easy remedy. Sip's must be re-sealed and roofing replaced.
Just my two cents worth based on a similar experience with our roof.
Grampsy, I agree with you. On the very first thread the homeowner said that a the roofers used a "very heavy tarpaper." I took this to mean 30# roofing felt. Here's some 30# roofing felt I installed last month. It did its job; it protected the house for one day's worth of rain. But here's what it looked like two days later. In order to get the shingles to lie flat, I sliced it with an abandon that would make O.J. Simpson recoil in horror. And I felt no more remorse than Juice does after the crime. I've been doing exactly this for well-nigh 40 years.
>>>>>But here's what it looked like two days laterNo wonder. You didn't put any nails in it. It's a wonder it stayed on the roof for 2 days. Felt will wrinkle, but not that bad if it's nailed properly.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
What a hack job! Why run the tarpaper at all when you ruin it like that? It's too bad that in forty years, nobody ever taught you how to roll paper, stretch it tight and straight, and then nail it off.Sheesh! I'd be embarrassed as hell to do something like that, let alone post pictures and then brag about it. You for real?OK, Must be local lower standards. I see you are from that part of the country where they don't always use drip edge, or tarpaper, citing costs instead of quality. what a shame...
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Come on Paul. Don't hold back. Let him know how you really feel............http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
OK, Must be local lower standards. I see you are from that part of the country where they don't always use drip edge, or tarpaper, citing costs instead of quality. what a shame...Whoa, I can't defend that slashing...but we do have to use tarpaper, and nobody sez we have to use drip edge...not that that's a bad thing<G> Actually, I've never seen a job without it, even though it's not officially in the code...so see, we do go above and beyond, ha. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Didn't mean to denigrate EVERYBODY else working around there, but it does seem like every tiome I hear about somebody roofing with no tarpaper and no drip edge, it is in Georgia or Carolina.This guy left my mouth hanging open in shock tho...
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No hack job, Piffin. The tarpaper was flat and tight the night I laid it. You and I both know that tarpaper stretches due to moisture and temperature change. For this reason, I have sliced tarpaper in several states, including New Hampshire, since the 1960s and, guess what? I've never once had a leak caused by this. That's because tarpaper is not essential to a leak-proof roof. I have had complaints, however, by customers who didn't like tarpaper bubbles that showed through the finished roof. In the late 1980s, by the way, I built a house in North Berwick, ME. When I went to the supplier in Kittery to order the shingles and at the same time ordered six rolls of tarpaper, the salesman expressed great surprise. He said--and I quote--"I haven't sold tarpaper for a roof in years". Like almost all the roofers in that area (around Portsmouth, NH) I decided not to use the felt. I followed the local practice of installing two rows of Ice and Snow shield at the eave and raw plywood for the rest. Guess what again? No leaks. Using "brown paper" is not a Southern aberration as characterized by you; I have never seen it more common than in southern New Hampshire. You really ought to try "brown papering" something before you die. It can be very liberating.
Tarpaper puckers when it gets wet, but if it is laid tioght and right in the first place, it will not cuase any wrinkling of the shingles, it lays right down. It is only when it is not stretched tight or not rolled straight that it can wrinkle enough to show through the shingles.and I have torn off dozens of roofs that showed water sign under shingles as they begin to wear out. With good TP, there is no damage to the sheathing. When the TP was omitted or torn, there was rotted sheathing. In almost every case, there was no noticed "leaks" on the interior of the house, but a roof can leak enough to destroy sheathing and framing and to grow mold without ever letting enough water in to damage a ceiling.That's the first I've heard of skipping the TP up north, but I really don't care where it is, leaving the TP off or all sliced to shreds is hack work and won't ever happen around me.
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Recently, a friend, who was a GC in the Portland, ME area for about 20 years (until he moved here about 5 yrs ago) had to go look at his inlaws house back in Portland. We had a big blow back in October that tore a bunch of the shingles off their house. The roof was only about 3 yrs old, and was done by a roofer that he recommended to his inlaws. He was absolutely shocked by that fact that there was no felt, no bitch, nothing! Just ashphalt shingles nailed to the deck. Loosing the shingles didn't help, but the resulting water damage (which was major) might have been minimized had there been a properly installed underlayment. Mudslinger may be right about the current state of things in the Portland area.
Second comment, and back to the original thread, assuming the ridges are due to vapor migration through the failed SIP seams, you think a complete bitch layer on the entire deck would prevent this problem? I realize this won't solve other ventilation issues that the house may have, but if water vapor can't blow through the deck, or in the case of a SIP, through the seams, shingle ridging seems nearly impossible.
I see SIPs in my future. Other than cost, what's the downside of putting I&W over an entire roof.
Only downside would be if a location where you would EVER want to take it off again.;)On SIPs it might prevent the problem we see here, but with poorly sealed seams, the problem would still exist. Moisture couldmigrate up into the seam until it hit the I&W, then stop, soak, and feed rot.
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This past December I had to replace an old poly bubble with a velux. The roof had been done just a couple of years prior (don't ask me why the owner didn't replace the skylight then). Anyway, after removing the shingles around the unit, I discovered the bituthane and figured that I was in for a long day. I made a couple of slices through it and discovered that it lifted right up, was barely stuck to the deck. The deck was sound and dry, and I know it was originally installed in the summer. I surmised that maybe it's "stickability" changes as a function of temperature. I know when it sticks to a sunny deck on a warm day, it is permanent, or so it seems. But maybe not. Have you ever had the pleasure of having to remove it on a cold day? If so, was it as tenacious as you'd have imagined or did it pop off relatively easily? Just wondering if I got lucky on this one.
IMO, it is more a matter of how hot the day it is installed and of wether there was a lot of dust kicking around. I've had it welded to the deck, and I've had it pop right off again. I have some to demo in the next week or so, and will find out on that one. It was laid in moderately cool weather, but has several seasons in the sun with blck finish over it.
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Piffin, Don't open this picture until you've taken your heart medicine. The building is mine. I have some electronic equipment, furniture and artwork stored within. I put the roof on last year. In the interim, we've had about 4 ft. of rain. The normal annual rainfall here is 42 inches but we had 55 inches last year. There has not been one drop of rain inside. One of the things I like about brown paper is that the shingles always lay nice and flat. I'm telling you, man, you need to try it. It's very liberating.
You are welcome to roof it with brown paint for all I care -= on your own house.But that'll never come close to being acceptable work for me or to normal standards. It will always be substandard work no matter how you cut it or how many people do it.I'll give you credit tho - at least you get four nails in the headlap zone. Not too many hacks do that.
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But that'll never come close to being acceptable work for me or to normal standards. It will always be substandard work no matter how you cut it or how many people do it.
I've had to endure the brunt of your hack attacks before about this issue and it took me a while to find a decent reply.
First, I know first hand that roofs that are roofed properly without felt do indeed function as intended. When I started my career, I witnessed ALL THE ROOFS BEING ROOFED WITHOUT FELT. I was working in the richest zip code in the country and the roofs did not leak. I followed their example in my earlier days and layed a roof on my garage that is still functioning twenty five later sans felt. I've never once worried about leaks.
Today, there are many different types of roofing underlayment and I will unequivically say that anyone that doesn't install a full deck of ice and water shield is nothing more than a hack, if they believe that an underlayment is necessary. I say this because I've never seen one piece of tar paper that will seal a nail hole and since every roof puts thousands of nail holes through the tar paper, I can't see any value, other than adding time, weight, expense and the risk of getting subshingle bubbling that will destroy the aesthetic value of the roof shingles, which are really the materials shedding water.
If some people choose to not inspect their roofs on an annual basis and let the shingles wear out and rot their decks, I simple don't have time to feel sorry for them. If they are going to rely on the tar paper instead of sensible maintenance on their homes then they should be ready to bear the consequences.
So, to those who only use tar paper....YOU ARE A HACK!
Join the crowd.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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"I was working in the richest zip code in the country and the roofs did not leak. "Got some news for you.Some have been leaking - just not enough that the ceiling is sagging, staining, and falling off.But it will cost the owners more when it comes to re-roofing, because some sheathing will need replacement, costing more than was ever saved by the original roofer.
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Piffin
In all fairness to the gentlemen from the south the only time I ever hear of skipping the felt is in northern states!
First time was up in the New England area, it always seamed odd to me but hell, I'm not a roofer, just played one from time to time, well, enought times to know that I didnt want to become a full timer!
I've always used 30# felt, and I never had it wrinkle like mudslingers pictures. I've put it down and on several occasions wasnt able to finish the roof for 5 or 6 days and I never had it lay like in those pictures.
I use it because I think it adds at least a small sense of security, keeps the roof dry while I lay the shingles, allows the shingles to move to some degree. Even if code said that I didnt have to put it down I'm sure I would, that is if I ever crawl up on a roof again!
Doug
Now back to the problem of the SIPs - I got nothing!
I've been trying to remember when you and I did hackattacks before together...I'm thinking that was when you were argueing that your state officials were wrong in requiring hurricane ties for framing there. That's all I can come up with.That is a perfect example of how you really don't understand the concept of what a STANDARD is. Standards - you know - the objective line in the sand.
One of MANY WAYS OF REALIZING QUALITY WORK.
The better ones work above the standard and the cheaper ones work below it, while arguing that it must be OK, 'cause so many guys do it...All the while, ignoring that there is a reason for having a standard to work to in the first place.
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Piffin, I understand standards and I think tar paper is a very low, useless standard. When there was no such thing as ice and water shield, I could understand someone embracing it. Now though, there are much better products than tar paper and anyone that uses it, or uses nothing is a hack.
If you want to debate the hurricane issue, I'll be glad to go over it again. I just don't see much sense in attaching a hurricane clip to a plate that is held on by foam. Do you?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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you like the music my chain makes when you yank it like that?
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you like the music my chain makes when you yank it like that?
Not really. I just don't see the need for you to be calling the guy a hack, simply because he doesn't see the value in tar paper that has a zillion holes in it. Furthermore, I think it's hypocritical to state that those that use tarpaper are "quality" builders when the reality is that it's the lowest standard that current roofing companies suggest.
It really boils down to respect. The gentleman has a long history of keeping roofs dry without paper and sometimes reality actually counts for something. Theory is all good and well but real world results are valid too. In either case, it doesn't make much sense to me to be calling anyone a hack for using an outdated product when there are much better products available. For me, I'd rather lay the entire deck in ice and water shield if I was inclined to do a poor job on my shingles. I'm a firm believer that the shingles are the product keeping the water out and if I want a backup (I dont), I'd lay ice and water shield. I wouldn't call anyone a hack either way unless they layed the shingles without a lap, or something insane like that.
It is my belief that tar paper is a product that was critical in the days before the modern ashpalt, self sealing shingle but hung on as something important simply because "grampa taught me to do it that way". Laying paper was critical when using wood shakes because they had to be laid with spaces to prevent buckling. The gaps would allow water to drip through the skip sheathing before the shakes swelled up and sealed out the rain. None of those things happen with today's modern shingles.
Even in the early days of asphalt shingles, the shingles had a tendency to blow up in a driving windstorm because they weren't self sealing. I could see where someone could make a case that minor water intrusion was a regularly occurring situation and a secondary barrier would be beneficial. I'd buy into that idea if that was the best there was to offer.
Nowadays, those ideas are moot. The self sealing shingles don't flap up in a breeze and let driving water get in. If someone is shingling in severe climates where wind driven rain will penetrate the self sealing shingles then I certainly wouldn't be thinking about tar paper as my safety backup. I would insist on nothing less than a fully covered ice and water material or something equivalent.
Suffice to say that I could see where this newbie needed a little support for his ideas, which have survived the test of time. Very few in here will stand with a new guy like that because most are afraid of the "hack" designation... which has been aimed at me many times. The difference between the silent supporters and me is that I don't need the approbation from the community here. I have a long track record of real world experiences that prove to me that some things work, even when the "experts" say they won't. I'll all for fine homebuilding, but I'm also okay with eliminating useless products that really don't do anything for the modern home.
Summed up, I think it's better practice to withold the term "hack" unless you're sure someone's building something that is failing. I framed my first house on 3/8 ply, 24" oc. on a 4/12 roof in 1977. The shingler layed the 15 year shingles on the bare deck and after twenty years I re-roofed it and sold it to someone I know. It's been thirty years now with no leaks. The entire neighborhood is built like that and the roofs are functioning fine. It may not qualify as upscale living but it worked fine for a one income rough carpenter raising a family. It's insulting against the poor people that could only afford that type of house (me- I qualified for a state subsidized (MSHDA)mortgage when I was in my second year of my apprenticeship) but it functioned fine and I wouldn't qualify it as "hack" work. The gutter installers on that house "hacked" their job in...literally. Many in here would deride the sparse framing and claim that it won't hold up, but what can I say....the facts are that it does in some climates, I know it's still holding up fine.
Anyways, if someone's not going to install a full ice and water shield and fifty year shingles...they are doing hack work if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
"the reality is that it's the lowest standard that current roofing companies suggest."So- what do you call somebody who does even less than the lowest standard?"Theory is all good and well but real world results are valid too"My experience is at least as long as his, and reall world. Every roofer I have ever worked with would describe that picture of his as a hacked up job. None would allow shingles with no underlayment."tar paper is a product that was critical in the days before the modern ashpalt, self sealing shingle "Tarpaper is actually more necessary if anything now that shingles are thinner and have less asphalt"his ideas, which have survived the test of time"The whole point is that they have NOT stood any test of time.
And if you are going to claim that somebody will be denied the possibility of owning a home because the felt costing about the same as one meal out is pushing them over the top, the air is getting too thin that you're breathing.I have differed from you on a couple of things and i respect you for a whole lot more of things and have learned some from you. But that respect is earned.And I will never agree that any one man can set himself up alone to ignore a standard that the mass of an entire industry has learned from experience is a quality standard, unilateraly do away with it, and expect not to be given a title designating something missing in the quality of his product. Give me a different name to use for somebdoy that does away with the normal standards and I'll use that one instead of hack.
What would you call it if a concrete guy did your driveway slab and did not use steel?Maybe he is a fine guy, just suffering from poor training and background. I don't know.
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What would you call it if a concrete guy did your driveway slab and did not use steel?
Normal.
We don't put steel in our driveways or slabs.
No,they are not all cracked up. They function just fine as long as you put the required 4" base under it.
Again....I can safely say that at least one million homes are like this all over the metro detroit area.
Back to the felt. Felt = worthless "standard". Ice and water shield = someone who actually cares.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
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"We don't put steel in our driveways or slabs."I surrender
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"We don't put steel in our driveways or slabs."
I surrender
Sorry, I'm just stating the facts.
Steel is only used in the overdig area in the slab of the garage. NO mesh is used, nor is re-rod. I'm sure there are some mud guys putting the stuff in, but I'd say the ratio would be 98% no steel, 2% steel.
They all use felt under the roof shingles now because the manufacturers state that it's a requirement for warranty purposes. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about putting it under my shingles because I know that the roofing companies aren't going to warrant the roof anyway if it blows off. They'll find some reason why it's all wrong. I would warrant the roof myself however and if a roof that I did leaked, with or without paper, I'd stand behind it. This house I'm in now, I put paper on it and I honestly felt stupid rolling it out and stapling it. I felt it was a waste of effort and money and time and still do. The only reason I did it was so I could look someone in the eye and tell them that they have a transferable warranty and know that I"m not lying.
The roof is stapled though....it's allowed if it's wide crown. We are in a high wind area off Lake Huron and after five years or so, I havent' noticed any shingles missing. I know I'm a hack by your standards for using staples but I cant help myself...I do things that I know work and in thirty years I've never had a call back on any roof I did for shingles blowing off or leaks because of staples or lack of paper.
On a re-roof, does everyone lay felt over the old shingles? If not, does it void the warranty?
blue "...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Gentlemen,
Lstiburek summed it up in the intro to "Building for Cold Climates" (and probably in all his other books as well). Good craftsmen can take the best materials and still wind up with crap. This problem is not solely due to the framers, installers, roofers, or whoever was supposed to (or not) install an interior vapor barrier. These guys all took their one-sided view of things resulting in a defective system.
Sure, there may be hairline cracks in the seams, but I believe the major issue here is a ventilation problem, the OP mentioned that once the air was turned on, the snow melt tracks that were apparent early on were no longer evident. He could reroof with it with rubber, and put a foil vapor barrier on the underside, but if there is excess vapor in the building, it will find some other way out.
We are seeing the next generation of tight, energy-efficient buildings getting a bad rap because someone under-engineered the air handling system, or simply forgot to turn it on. We never saw the ridging problem on conventional roofs, with or without interior vapor barriers, because vapor was able to migrate through the entire deck more or less evenly. With SIPs, water vapor is funneled to the seams because it will take the path of least resistance which is not through the foam core.
I still don't think this roof is toast, although it may look like crap. And if the air handling system is now up and running, the mold issue goes away (unless there are other water infiltration issues). If I was a SIP manufacturer or installer, I'd be looking to require properly sized and operating ventilation systems as a condition for any warranty.
We need to stop trying to blame someone else's workmanship (although there is plenty of room for criticism) and recognize, and start figuring out how to make these new systems work as they were intended.
Excellent post!
After the OP talked about the air handling this morning you may have hit the nail on the head.
Please take a look at the attached photo. It shows the roof at 5pm here in Mass, today. As you can see the ridges are visible because the snow has NOT melted on them today. Now I'm really confused but I strongly suspect that somehow the ventilation system shut down at some point.I will say that if the key to this roof not pealing up is the ventilation system running properly then there is a flaw in the design from my perspective. The ventilation system was not a must have but rather a strongly recommended because of the health benefits NOT because it would prevent roof shingle problems.
snort
be Can't help but love BT, ya know it?
View Image
"being human is a complicated proposition"-DavidxDoud---Never show a fool a half finished job---GrampsyI feel like a bunny in a hillbilly meadow at noon..........jjwalters
Edited 1/28/2007 5:41 pm ET by rez
Thanks for the enlightened pic.
I find it interesting that your most recent pic shows snow still showing on the raised "ridges".
Strikes me that if the problem is vapor driven by warm air passing thru the SIPS seam that the snow on the ridges would be the first to melt.
Not sure why the melt ridges are still apparent but I'll offer a couple of possibilities. Maybe the buckling has created a mini-cold roof in the area of the ridges, since the shingles have lifted, cold air can now get under the vertical ridges keeping that part of the roof a lot colder. Another explanation may be the fact that this looks like the north side of the house and we are looking at it from the east. In other words, the eastern half of the ridge showing snow hasn't seen the sun since early this AM when it was still below freezing. Was there still snow on the western side of the ridges at 5 PM? If not, then the presence of snow seen on the ridge in the picture is simply due to the fact that those areas never saw enough sun to melt.
I wouldn't call the need for ventilation a design flaw. In fact, given what is known about SIPs, I think it ought to be a design requirement. That's exactly the reason for the sudden explosion of mold issues. We finally figure out how to build a tighter house whether it's SIPs, foam panel insulation, whatever. In theory these technologies should be less expensive to heat and cool, and hopefully less expensive and better for the planet in the long run, which is why we use them. But we are lagging in our willingness to put thought into managing the air inside our increasingly tighter envelopes, and money into the ventilation.
Proper ventilation shouldn't be an option just to improve the indoor air quality, it's a basic necessity to keep the cellulose-based building materials from premature decay.
Or the raised shingle lines are just catching the drifting snow.
"being human is a complicated proposition"-DavidxDoud---Never show a fool a half finished job---GrampsyI feel like a bunny in a hillbilly meadow at noon..........jjwalters
That was my thought. We just had a stange wind and frost storm here
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DUH..never thought of that .
I agree. It's clear that the reason the snow is not melting on these ridges is because cold air is allowed underneath them because the ridges are raised. The sun by itself can't melt the ridges like it can the rest of the roof. The roof faces northwest.The question remains, why were these very same spots melting 3 weeks ago after a storm but today they are not.I'm leaning towards the ventilation issue but I don't want to mislead myslef or my father into thinking that everything is OK as long as the ventilation unit is on 100%. Still doesn't seem right that these buildings need a device to keep them safe from the effect of moisture although it does make sense. It just seems to diminish one of their selling features. PS - I wish there was a way to know which of these posts had something to do with my issue and which didn't I love these forums but they always seem to get derailed. Thanks again for everyone's input.
Sorry for the side track. Your problem does make an example of how one little tiny item somebody thinks is un-necessary could compromise an entire structure and why it is important to pay attention to do it all right.
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Other than the remote possibility that the panels have swelled and sealed themselves shut in the past three weeks, the only thing I can see that is significantly different is the weather.
Three weeks ago it wasn't 15 degrees outside like it was today, it was cold but not the bitter cold we've had recently. Maybe there's some break point in ambient temperature, above which you'll see melting at the seams, below which you will not. In other words, if the snow is almost ready to melt off the roof at 32 degrees outside temp, just a minor amount of heat leaking at the ridge will accelerate the melting at the ridges. But at much lower air temps, the minor heat leak isn't strong enough to get the roof temp at the ridges above freezing. Just a thought.
And the rest of you guys need to take a breath and lighten up. Life is short enough.
i was part of one SIP project that ended up having ice dams in the valleys. the problem was that when they sprayed the valley with expansion foam they missed some spots. the upward warm air infiltration caused the water to melt and the rest is history. were our problem not in a valley my bet would be that the shingles would have buckled. if i had to guess i'd say that the seems were not sprayed with expansion foam properly or sprayed with a bad batch (it's not uncommon to get faulty cans of spray foam).
peel back the tape on one or two of the seems and see if it's filled with expansion foam. if not , or if it's not constant then that is your problem.
as to the problem of the shingle fix, my hands are up in the air..?????
Thanks, Blue.
At the age of 57, I have never been called a hack until now. Both Piffin and Grant Logan have indicated that the 30# felt that I installed wrinkled because I didn't install it correctly. But if you read the excerpt from the article that I've attached from the May 2002 issue of JLC, it's pretty obvious that wrinkled felt is an industry-wide problem. I will repeat what I said before: The day I installed it, it was tight and flat and there were plenty of nails in it.
Note the three reasons given by the "industry expert" (JLC's term) concerning the use of felt. The primary reason--which I have always agreed with--is that it serves as a temporary roof. A second reason is that it helps roofs with 3/8-inch sheathing become fire-rated. Who uses 3/8-inch sheathing? I certainly don't. The third reason is a tentative suggestion that it can reduce damage when "water gets past the shingles". If water "gets past" a 4-in-12 or steeper roof, the roof is not installed correctly. If the shingles blow off, chances are that the tarpaper will blow off as well. Even if the tarpaper doesn't blow off, it's filled with holes and there's a water-catching edge at the bottom of the area.
Note also that the "industry expert" says nothing about the tarpaper being a slip sheet, or a sacrificial layer that gives up asphalt to the deck, or any of the other made-up things that have cropped up in recent years.
Hey Mudslinger, I'm a hack, and a neighbor over on the light blue side. You a basketball fan? "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
"The day I installed it, it was tight and flat and there were plenty of nails in it."So - did you take the rest of the nails out when it posed for that picture?It's interesting to see somebody quote from a paper on industry standards and the needs for them to try to make an arguement against them.Tell me you can proudly proclaim "I provide less with my roofs"Maybe you've got something there ! Like playboy or Penthouse - They sell their jobs with less on or under too.You are forging ahead into a whole new world of advertising - the shoe store can proclaim, "Our shoes have thinner soles so you feet can breathe while they hurt"Universities can tell parents, "We'll get your children working to pay off their loans faster, because we teach less for the money"And I can see you buying your next truck. Look for one with a five gallon gas tank because you rarely drive far enough in one trip to need more anyway.
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"So - did you take the rest of the nails out when it posed for that picture?It's interesting to see somebody quote from a paper on industry standards and the needs for them to try to make an arguement against them."
It wasn't "a paper on industry standards." The editor, Jon Vara, gathered six industry experts and asked them about 20 questions about asphalt shingle roofs. Did you miss the one about wrinkles in felt? The question was: "How can you prevent felt from wrinkling?" The answer wasn't 'put more nails in.' It was that "felt wrinkles as a result of dimensional change that follows wetting and drying." There was no mention of a nailing schedule. In fact, this guy didn't suggest any measures that a roofer might take to avoid buckled tarpaper. The expert's "best advice" was to shop around for felt that doesn't wrinkle as much. The felt I installed was saturated with a torrential downpour a few hours after I installed it. It buckled severely as a result. It is supremely arrogant on your part to look at a snapshot in Maine and declare that the problem with this roof in North Carolina was due to poor workmanship. You didn't see the installation and you simply don't have enough evidence to pass judgement on it. Nor do you have enough information about me or my work, to judge me.
"Nor do you have enough information about me or my work, to judge me."That may be true, but I know enough about felt and about roofing to know it can be done far better than what you display in your photo, and that deleting felt is no good answer to the problem of buckling felt. you subjected your work to peer review by posting it here. Then you pushed a substandard idea. If you can't take criticism for it, then don't do it, but don't post substandard stuff and expect everyone to kiss up and praise you for it. Acting like it's the best way to do it because other guys do it too is adolescent BS.
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"you subjected your work to peer review by posting it here."
No. I posted the pictures of the buckled felt to show KLawyer how much 30# felt can buckle in the presence of wetting and drying. I still think that the ridges in the shingles were caused by the felt puckering up due to moisture from below. This is consistent with both my experience and what was said in the JLC article. There have been a lot of posters who have conjectured that the shingles were deformed by the moisture from underneath. I think this is unlikely because shingles have an excellent track record of stability in the presence of water. Shingled roofs are regularly soaked and regularly baked in the sun--without buckling. We'd all be in a heap of trouble if they bubbled up when they got wet. Of course, my theory is just that: a theory. I am willing to wait until KLawyer physically investigates the problem. Unlike you, I don't have the ability to do a definitive diagnosis from a thousand miles away.
Edited 1/29/2007 11:08 am ET by Mudslinger
"At the age of 57, I have never been called a hack until now"Didn't notice that line at first.
I don't know how you define "hack", but I use it for somebody who makes a choice to do work that is below standard. You got a different one?
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"Loosing the shingles didn't help, but the resulting water damage (which was major) might have been minimized had there been a properly installed underlayment"
The operative word here is "might". JLC ran an article in the wake of Katrina about the damage sustained in the storm. In every picture they showed with shingles blown off all the tarpaper beneath them had also blown off. Do you think that the wind suddenly stops blowing after it has stripped off the shingles?
Every roof repair I have been called for because of wind removing shingles involved only a few shingles and the tarpaper was still left intact, protecting the house from damage.Hurricanes removing most of a roof is another story, but These more common repairs happen a lot, mostly because of other hack habits where nails are placed too high in the shingles or where staples are used instead of nails.
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Here's a link to the article. Look at the pictures and see how much good the tarpaper did.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-local/view.pdf/d7c9adbf48549c6d4be3520e8d8e1b15/www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/45bc05fb000d2a6d27177f000001056d
This be more common
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Good ol sips, all this work and hassle for.......
(sorry this doesnt help the poor guy but someone had to say it.)
kayaker,
It's not the fault of SIP's it's the fault of someone who didn't know what they are doing installing something improperly.
Are you telling me that stick built homes never get built improperly?
NO no no, they are and often. not on this thread, but It bugs me when people make the product out to be some miracle idea. Didnt mean any harm
My guess is that really poor workmanship resulted in fairly large air leakage into and through the spline joints, condensing on the underside of the osb and/or felt. Caulk? Foam? What's that?
If it were my house I'd be up there pronto since it's many times easier to fix the roof before it rots the osb.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Question for all: Does 30# felt tend to wrinkle worse than 15#?
BTW - I am aware of premium type roofing underlayments like RoofTopGuard, Roofers Select and Titanium-UDL but am not talking about stuff like that... Just regular old felt.
No ,15 lb. felt wrinkles much worse than 30lb.
I can felt in a roof with 30 lb. with plasic button caps and have it viable to slate in for some time to come. With 15 -if anyone still uses it- you'd best cover it up that same day.
Walter
Hmmm, is it getting worse? I never had that, but it's been years since I've use 15. edit - I'm remembering too, that in the mid seventies, when they first started coming along with cheaper felts, that the cheap ones wrinkled a whole lot worse, while the quality brands like GAF rolled straight and flat and stayed that way.
We would dry in when the sheathing went on the trusses, and then go back in a week to three weeks when the fascia etc was finished to shingle it, and the paper was still fine. With 15#.
But that got harder to do when quality fell into the ditch.
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Edited 1/28/2007 12:19 pm ET by Piffin
Yes, absolutely.But if laid straight and tight, it drys even tighter. It is only when damp that it tries to buckle up.
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KLawler,
Sorry I've answered this a couple of times and most of them have disappeared.
Let me try again..
The only repair is from the inside.. You need a full vapor barrier across the roof.. Moisture is wicking past the sealant and up thru the seams causing your problem. Only you can determine if you can accept a less than proper repair where they staple up some plastic between the beams or require them to lift the panels and put the plastic on properly..
Having touble believing that moisture (water) can go thru the beams and be forced out thru the roof seams?
Think of a waterlogged log.. it starts out with maybe 25% moisture, light enough to float . It soaks in enough water so it eventually sinks to the bottom, then someone pulls it out and it will give up all that moisture.. and may dry out to 7% moisture.
I used to do alot of repair work on various types of buildings but I have limited experience with SIPS. I do remember reading a book on the subject and one of the things that hasn't been asked was how were the roof panels connected. There are a few kinds of methods 1/2" splines and I joists are often used. I believe that some people use 7/16" splines to help ease installation and this may possibly be part of your problem.
Do you have a copy of Structural Insulated Panels by Michael Morley from Tauton Press. It is an excellent resource on SIPS.
I hope this may be of some help.