I have a client interested in using SIP’s. Their main concerns are about offgassing and greenhouse emissions from the foam and OSB. Mine are cost and difficulty of working with them, re: plumbing and electric.
So: Can we find panels made with environmentally friendly foam and with plywood instead of OSB?
Any ballpark prices per sf for an installed SIP frame?
Just how much tougher are the utilities?
Thanks
(Yes, I did do a search, and didn’t hit any relevant answers.)
Replies
i haven't built with sips yet, but have done some research and can answer the question about utilities, they are pre drilled with channels for electrical, so that is a piece of cake, and you don't put plumbing in exterior walls anyway, it screws up the building envelope when you do.
i honestly think that steel stud framing and spray in foam are the way to go, am currently working on a plan for such. the only disadvantage of steel is thermal transmission which is solved by double exterior walls, or foam sheeting on the outside.
i would like to be able to tell you just to send e-mail of CAD plan and i can get everything cut for you, and small sections pre-assembled and deliver to you at your site for quick installation, cheaper than local framers can build but better quality, but not there yet. it is my long term goal to work with the industry that manufacture's these components to put together a program to do just that. imagine you just unload the container and drag around and screw together complete framing package, then call for welder to glue up. no termites, no mold, cheaper, lighter, stronger, and straighter than wood
Skids, re: prepackaged steel stud framing.
That would be a neat package. You could do pre built sections up to trailer length, crane placement. Jig built at manuf's site with all openings perfectly square, welded where needed etc., for screw down, bolt together assembly. Also include wood blocking or straping for wall molding, chair rail, crown molding, shower bars, towel racks...and plan in duct work chases, returns, plumbing, etc.,per the plans. Be able to incorporate with either steel or wood floor I-beams. Carry anchor bolts from foundation through steel wall sole plates. As you stated, with good exterior vermin proof foam panel to provide stud thermal break, and foam filled walls (about an extra 20% of fill), you would have a very strong, accurate, efficient package. Please keep me posted. PaulEnergy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
actually paul i am trying to eliminate the crane, maybe just a small boom truck for trusses, and as far as packaging goes, i worked a framing job 16-17 years ago in bay area where all walls except rake and balloon frame chase for fireplace were built off-site. with minimum of equipment and a 4 man crew they were unloading semi's and standing walls as fast as you can imagine, longer walls in section so men can drag around and place once on subfloor. the advantage of steel framing is that it is light.
would very much like to take advantage of the new steel joists they have on the market as well, but the biggest advantage i see is eliminating anchor bolts altogether. heres the deal- fairly level lot site-to gentle slope, dig a trench for foot print, and drop in short steel stud wall sections, screw together so flush at top. intermediate wall sections in between exterior footprint as per plan. brace and level so it doesnt move when concrete is poured. pour concrete 6" above finish grade and roughly scrape to level with flat shovel, yer done! NO LOCATING AND INSTALLING ANCHOR BOLTS! NO WORRYING ABOUT FINISHING CONCRETE! most of us when we build go to a lot of trouble to get that first pony wall level so we have a flat base to start from. we cut and measure and dial in building off of foundation we have fussed over to get flat.
years ago i read in FHB an article on building a steel house. i remember at the time author took the job in part as a research project, just to learn how it is with steel. i remember one of his complaints at the time was fastening wall to joists, there was a picture of him with a plate of steel diagonally clamped and he was screwing around with a drill, maybe a mag drill even-ya i agree- big pain in the butt. i said at the time to the mag- dude just weld it an yer done. they build huge buildings by putting metal beams together with holes in them so they can bolt up to clamp, and then call in the welders to glue. just like calling in the foam guy with special equipment its expensive, but fast-done in a day. i would be surprised if it took a welding contractor more than 2 days to do all the welding a house could require. if you have access (scaffolding) set up those kind of filet welds go very fast.
http://www.heritagebuildings.com/homes/home_more_info.htm
This company will build a house out of metal for you, with your plans or one of theirs and ship it to you to be erected by a local company that does metal work.
Prices are very competitive with other kinds of construction materials and the houses are good quality.
They have a representative locally that I talked to but they were too far behind to use them myself. Have seen some of their work and it is good.
Since this house we are building is taking so long to start, I would have been better off to go with them after all!
To learn more about SIP's, Tauton has an excellent book on it, that you can buy thru this site's look offerings: "Structural Integrated Panels, SIP's" by Morley.
i have looked at their website, and i can improve significantly on what they offer. first of all they use a beam system that is all bolted, kind of like a post and beam wood house, i think its a bad design. a more typical framing design using light gauge is superior for a number of reasons. those are the same reasons you only see extremely high end post and beam (timber frame) wood houses, the typical frame is more cost effective.
they rely heavily on a crane, very expensive, one of the advantages of gauge metal is light weight. even trusses of light gauge are more easily manhandled than wood 2x4 counterparts. ease of installation is a factor, but all of the materials for construction need to be handled several times. when you multiply the reduction in weight by the number of times you handle a framing member the savings in efficiency add up. most framing crews are delivered on site at least some prefabricated (trusses) or precut packages (headers, cripples, corners,etc) even small custom builders use these techniques.
most of heritages homes are slab on grade, and if you want that detail my system will work for that as well. i prefer to lift it up off the ground and have a crawl space. with my system of foundation construction this too becomes more cost effective. (see above post for details)
Just trying to pull this thread back to my original questions. Thanks for the book info.
SIPs I love to talk about them,,
here are the facts..
raw costs start around three dollars a sq. ft. for 4 inch thick ones and go up to around four dollars a sq.ft for the 12 inch thick ones.. don't forget to add the needed screws (special) and glue (special) plus in my case I needed splines (the most efficent way to join them together).. I origanllly bought them ready made from the suppier but they were way too expensive (just buy some plywood and rip them with a ripping guide, takes less than 2 minutes per spline and you're costs are one tenth!
If you keep the panels reasonable size two guys can install a wall in a couple of minutes.. way faster then stick building (ask for details) strongly suggest that you make the foundation plumb staright and true,, while you can adjust panels it's much easier if you don't have to..
wire chases can be put in wherever you want them at the factory and it is really easy to do.. with just a moments forethought you can save the elctricain a lot of time and he will find that wiring isn't really any differant once you adjust for the panels method of assembly.
As for plumbing. you really shouldn't put plumbing in any exterior wall.. if you do you risk freezing.. (interior walls will be stick built so those are plumbed as normal) your plumber shouldn't find any real differance.
the sheetrock guys will love you.. flat walls for a change! no shimming crooked 2x4's plus anyplace they put a screw will work. they can hit "studs" blindfolded and drunk..
I'm a fat old (55 1/2) and terribly out of shape yet I could carry a 4x12x 6 inch panel around the house and toss it into place in about ten minutes with one other guy who had no idea of anything involved with contruction.. in less than an hour I had a 20 foot high x 12 foot long wall up, insulated and nailed in place.. all I needed to do was cut out the window openings and put the windows in place.. (which is really easy to do!)
If you need a wire chase running verticle just get a red hot length of rebar and drop it where the wire needs to be . Instant wire chase. hopefuly you have a hole under the sips for the rod to drop out.
I used a cheap spade bit with three extensions to drill a wiring chase after delivery when I realized that I couldn't wire up from the bottom the way originally planned.. the drill went thru like the foam wasn't there and probably took a lot less time than it would take to heat a piece of rebar.. for a moment it looked like it was snowing and we all had laugh at that considering it was like 90 degrees at the time..
What Frenchy said and more. SIPs do not offgass any more (actually a bit less) than conventional wood framing, they use far less wood and produce less waste than any form of conventional construction and they save, save, save, save and save more in energy consumption for the life of the structure. You would be hard pressed to find a more environmentally friendly form of building.
R-Control uses a mineral additive called Timbor in their foam that is very effective in detering insect infestation. An alternative steel stud version of SIPs is made by Thermasteel. I like their panels a lot and will probably consider them if I ever build another house (not likely). I'm building with R-Control panels right now. (when I have the time that is) IMHO SIPs are the best bang for the buck of any form of residential construction period.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Kevin, could you give any idea of cost to use sips? Are Frenchys numbers close to what you experienced?Tom
Douglasville, GA
My 4 1/2" walls were $2.00/SF and the 6 1/2" Roof panels were $2.33/SF for the raw panel about a year ago. With the jump in sheet goods pricing I imagine the price has gone up. The shop charged me $20 / cut to prefab the whole package. Additional costs include the dimensional lumber and splines to complete the package and the shop fabrication drawings which run between $600 and $800 if you have the factory convert your plans to use SIPs.
I used a set of their plans for reference and drew my own but it took a lot of research to make sure I knew what I was doing. Errors on the plans are the responsibility of the one who drew them so it's usually worth the money to have the factory convert them. Especially for hips and valleys on the roof where the angles get a little tricky.
Even with a factory pre-fab I ended up having to make several adjustment cuts in the field so be prepared to do a little tweaking. There were several panels cut wrong on my roof so I had to do some major modification there. The factory is sending me a nice check to compensate for my troubles.
I cannot stress the importance of finding a supplier with good customer service and support for a first time installer. It makes all the difference in the world. Here are a few resources you may want to check out.
http://www.sipweb.com/ Kind of the central database of SIPs on the web.
http://www.sips-chapman.com/ My supplier - very happy with them. Ask for Thad Chambers and tell him I recommended you call. He is a SIP evangelist and the single best resource on SIPs I've found. He would welcome the opportunity to answer your questions.
http://www.thermasteelpanels.com/ Here is the link to the steel stud panels I mentioned. They were priced a little high when I got my quote but they were working on streamelining some of their production techniques so they may be more competitive now.
http://www.energywisestructures.com/ This is the company to talk to for load calculations for your HVAC equipment. I believe they are also a rep for Thermasteel panels so you might get two information birds with one stone call on this one. Ask for Richard Rue - He's done thousands of HVAC systems for energy efficient homes and really knows what he is doing. Believe me, you want to get the HVAC right in a SIP home and very few conventional construction mechanical contractors know how just yet. My load calculations and energy analysis cost me about $300 and I got a spec for a system custom tuned to every corner of my house that was 1 1/2 to 2 tons smaller than my local HVAC guys were calculating. Well worth the money to get it right on this one.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-BREAKTIME/messages?msg=31536.1 Here is the thread about my house that I started here a while back. I'll do an update on the install of the second floor and roof as soon as I get it completely buttoned up. I'm averaging about 8 hours a week on the project right now so it's taking a while. Almost there-just three dormer caps left - maybe this weekend...
I really hope you decide to go with SIPs on this one and give us some feedback on your experience. I look forward to our country having an installer base that makes them a viable option for everyone. Good luck!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Thanks for the detailed info. I'll be bookmarking those sites for sure. I have some lake property in NH that I want to build on eventually and SIP's are the way I would like to go. Don't really care how long it takes to complete but I like the fact that it can be dried in really quickly with panels.Tom
Douglasville, GA