Just read a couple of interesting articles about SIPS, structural insulated panels, Curious if anyone has ever used them or has any type of experience with them, good or bad?
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Replies
I am certainly no expert, but we used them on an addition we built two years ago. I thought they were great. I was going to try to use them for the roof of the project I am designing now, but it doesn't look like it will be practical. What specifically are you curious about?
I'm building my home now with SIPs Great and terrible things to say about them. In the end let me say I will never build another home without them! feel free to ask away!
In a SIPs wall, What do you nail siding to?? also what to you screw cabnets to?
thanks
the siding you can nail into the osb, it will hold if you use ringshanks. Cabinets can be set on a ledger board that is screwed into the osb. If you use the SIP that has a spline connection you have a one inch thick joint that is 4 inches wide, every 4 feet. It will take a lot of pull to remove a #10 screw from one inch of OSB (don't forget, engineered beams are just glorified OSB)
It's real fun to sheetrock a SIP panel. You never miss a stud! and nothing comes close to SIPs for insulation value.
The only 3 real negatives are,
1. care you need to use to make certain everything is square when you start becasuse it's much harder to cut a panel to meet a crooked wall.
2. It takes more time to cut a panel than to cut a piece of plywood.
3. It's tons faster to bang a bunch of nails in then to run a bunch of screws in......
I've used them quite a bit now...as a matter of fact I'm seriously considering switching from being a General Whore...er...Contractor to doing nothing but SIPs installations. Great products and energy effeciency; my own home uses in a year what my neighbors do in a month in propane.
As far as nailing siding; shortened nailing pattern on SIPs for most types of siding (e.g., 8" instead of 16"). Hardie products can be used with no problem over them. For cabinets, I like to glue and nail an additional 1/2" nailer to the wall, then drywall up and around them...voila...instant surface for attaching cabinets.
And yes...things need to be square before starting...but then again; shouldn't all the buildings we build?
You may not like being a general whore, but you could do worse. Our VP for operations once gathered everybody together and announced that it was time for the company to make the transition from being a slut to a whore. We'd still lay on our backs for anybody who asked, but from now on we wanted money for it instead of just promises.
Edited 11/25/2002 2:39:47 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
Do you have to fur out a wall for plumbing or does the plumbing run through the panels, I read there are cavities for the electric but it did not saying anything about the plumbing. How are headers for doors and windows handled or are they not needed?
One other question,
How do you attach a sips panel to the floor?
You might find some answers here...
http://www.winterpanel.com/manuals/wph/constman.html"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Uh...Okay, let me see if I can remember all the questions and take them in order.
Plumbing; we don't run plumbing on exterior walls around here with any system (stick, SIP, log, ICF, etc.)...too much chance of freezing or other problems, too hard to get enough insulation. You might find something simply installed on an exterior wall (maybe a sink), but that's it. You don't/can't (in general), cut the skins of the panels because that's where all the structural integrity is. So cutting out 5" of OSB on the inside could cause problems....kind of doubtful....but it's just not a good idea. So for instance if you've got a toilet on an outside wall, the supply comes through the floor, rather than the wall, for instance.
On the panels I generally have used (Murus, R-Control, Insulspan, and WinterPanel), you generally are set on headers (that is, not having to have them), on most spans up to 4' on no more than a 2-story home. Obviously if you did something strange or had a weird point load, things might be a little different. For most companies, headers larger than that will get, instead of some type of insulated spline between the panels, actual 2x material that supports some type of insulated header. Those can go (on R-Control), up to I think 12' unsupported. The bottom (for a window, for example), would be a real short SIP; a door of course would just be sans-panel (no panel). The insulated headers are REAL cool because they're so light...again...they're made usually in the same factory. The companies generally look at your plans and cut panels so they fit pretty well....so for instance you'll put in a bunch of 4' panels, then get a 2' so you can put in a header and a sliding glass door, then perhaps another odd size one, then regular size ones and so on.
Most SIP systems rely on first a nailed down bottom plate, that sits in from the edge of the home by 7/16"...so the outer face of the panel rests directly over support (in this case, the rim joist). It goes all the way around the peremiter...except for corners where you do a little funky butt or bypass assembly (one panel goes to the edge of the house, the one coming from the other direction butts up against this). The panels sit on this 2x floorplate and are glued and nailed to it. Think of it this way; for every panel, there is a bottom plate, a single top plate, and a "stud" (either a real stud or some type of insulated spline, double OSB spline, etc.), between each panel. You put down all your "bottom plates"...add your "studs" as you put the panels up, then once you do each wall, add your top plate and plumb and line (which is easy).
It really is a slick system. The first time I ever worked with them (years ago), it took me and one helper a day and a half to completely erect them on a 2-story 1800 square foot timberframe. These were "drywall" panels....so in 12 hours, we'd put on all the exterior sheathing, all the drywall (which needed some finishing), and all the insulation. Obviously there was more work than that...but it really worked out well....and with little experience (okay, I was terrified nailing that first panel on...but everyone knows what I mean!). And I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying "General Whore"; it's just that for ten years now, we've done everything from foundations to finish, paneling to painting, framing to rodent removal....and that's got to change (at least in my little world of business plans).
Finally, this is a very, very good system. Got it on my own home. However, like anything else, there's no end-all, do-it-all system. SIPs might be overkill or unwarranted on some projects (how much do McMansion owners care about heating bills?), and it can be difficult to do complex roof shapes. And like anything else, the real key is in the details. Hopefully I've answered some of your questions....just post more if you have them.
I've got a question for you, How close do you follow the letter of the mfg. instructions? For example R-control wants a 14 inch long screw every 4 inches into a oak timber. On a single beam 20 feet long that's 120 wrist numbing screws. 36x 120=4320 screws just on roof panels! (not counting the hundreds required for each dormer and thousands more for the walls) I just spent most of today doing it and have made my wrists feel like jello.
Incidently all my joints land on timbers.
Frenchy, My roof panels were 6 1/2 thick here in western NC and used 8 inch special screws. Large flat / washer type head for a # 3 square drive and only about 2 inches of threads. Hammered in the first 6 inches then driven in using a cordless drill. Timbers in my case are eastern white pine which takes these screws a lot easier than your oak. Still I think a high torque cordless should drive into oak too, but then maybe not? Backing them out is a different story. The long thin shafts on these screws just want to wind up on you and they are hard to get out. In other words you hope you don't have to move / reinstall many panels.
deblacksmith
Yeh I use a high torque cordless (18 volt Dewalt) but here in minnesota we need 14 inch screws because our panels are 11 1/2 inches thick. I foolishly made the mistake of drying the white oak before I put the frame up because I thought that would eleminate a lot of the checking...(it doesn't decrease it by a lot)
If I ever have to back the screws out,........I won't! after a while the tannic acid in oak will attack the screws and the only way to remove them will be a lazer......
Frenchy, Dude....are we reading the same manual? I'm looking at R-Control AF-200 thru 205....wall panels applied with big screws 24" o.c. That's how I've done it. For roof panels, AF-135 (which is what I've followed), shows 12" o.c. spacing for screws on floor and roof panels....are you looking at something different? I'm asking, one, because you kind of make me nervous...but also because the three sets of instructions I have all have various spacings for wall, roof, and floor panels, but never more than 12" o.c. I can tell you that I like the wrist-numbing screws better than the nails. I can remember getting winterpanels a couple years ago as part of a kit. We're unloading these semi-trucks, and placing stuff around. One of the guys I'm working with calls me over, pointing at a pallet. On it are boxes of Maze nails....lots and lots of boxes. 14", 3/8" Galvanized spiral shanks to hold the frame together (about 300 pounds of them), 10" ring shank for the roof system, 8" ring shank for the panels. Thousands of these bast****. I'll take screws any day over those.
And yes, all interior walls are stick built. That's where you basically run everything if possible.
Since I live close to the local plant I asked if I was reading this right. They showed me where it does call for screws on 4 inch centers if there are no midspan beams. It does seem excessive to me as I sit here waiting for the feeling to return to my wrist..
I really hope you are right because when I put up my west wing that's how I did it, 12 inches on center with the adjcent screws off set so there is a screw every six inches. However Rereading the manual convinced me to put them every four inches, and then when I asked the rep at the factory he confirmed that 4 inches was called for in my case.
Yeh, I guess I'd prefer the screws to nails in that case.... however it's so easy to sit there with a nail gun and bang those 8p nails into the splines. I just wish it were that easy to put the screws in...
It's 9 degrees outside and I've got to get up the warmth to go out and climb on a roof that's pitched at 17/12 and drill screws in while I hope the winds out of the north don't gust up too much......Tell me once again about the joys of homebuilding?
Ok so one more question, Interior bearing walls, do you use sip panels, or stick frame them, and I guess now I have another question kind of relating to previous one for plumbing, A lot of people, at least where I live, like there bathrooms insulated for sound reasons, have you ever used sips for a bathroom, I assume you would then have to fir out the walls requiring plumbing, how much more of an insulating factor can you get over a standard 2x(4 or 6) wall?
Thanks for all your help.
I know sips have been around for a while and getting more popular, never seen what go up around here though, but then again I am in kansas.
I am in Kansas also, and can show you SIP panel houses we built in Newton, and outside of Cedar Point. The one in Newton used SIP panels for the roof also. Although the roof design for this house was foolish, I would do it again on a well desinged roof. It's a good system, and produces a strong tight, quiet house.
Glad Im not the only one in KS, Im in lawrence
Iam in lawrence ks ,and I built my house with sips(wall panels only) roof is conventional framing if you like to take a look at it contact me. the house is closed in but not rocked yet. Doing the plumbing and electrical etc. sips are great and I would not hesitate to use them again.
Good looking house, what part of lawrence is the home in?
Thanks..its between Lawrence and Baldwin
Out of courisity, why didn't you use the panel system for the roof as well? To me the thermal effencancys shown are best used in the roof and then only slightly better in the wall since most heat is lost thru the roof.
Just courious.
I didn' word my message correctly. We did use SIP panels for the roof on one of the houses, but the designer didn't want to have the panels overhang the walls to form the overhangs. This is what was foolish. We stick framed the overhangs all around the house, which took a lot of time which cost the owner dearly. The idea was to have open overhangs with exposed rafter tails (although they were fake), and a facia which wasn't as wide as the 8" SIP cut on a pitch cut would have been. We used 2"x6 lumber for the framing, so the result was only a little narrower than would have been achieved with the SIP. The owner built his own trusses, which were exposed on the inside, on 4' centers , and we had to hit a 2x on edge with a 14" screw down through the panel into the truss. That was a challange. We missed more than I like to admit. Tilt the screw just slightly, and it misses its mark by enough to show. Once we got over the learning curve of how to erect the system, it was relatively easy. Be careful of the glue however.. it is used extensively, and has a way of getting on everything you own.
A couple of must-read web sites about SIPs ...
http://www.sipweb.com/
http://www.sips.org/
Regarding plumbing ... it's a no-no in SIPs. You need to get creative about routing your vents before you get there and find out you have a head-scratcher to deal with. All of your stick-framed interior walls need to handle your venting ... or voids behind cabinets, drywalled pilasters, etc.
I used them several times, and I just wanted to add to what the brainiacs have posted here. You can get SIPs made just about anyway you want them, just pony up the extra dinero. For instance, you can get plywood instead of OSB, drywall for the inside panels, electrical chases, window frames pre-installed, single-sided panels for laying on top of T&G ceilings, etc. The insulation is so good, you may have to get a fresh-air exchanger for your house so you can breath.
We just completed a quick stop oil change center. Everything went pretty smooth considering it was our first time. The inside walls were finished with frp which worked well for them. They can hose it down once a month or so.The trim strips were time consuming,so was the ceiling. They were 4 by 8 insul panels with 3/4 inch lip,so purlin spacing is critical.The highest panel was 17 ft wich we set by hand, any taller i would get crane.We covered with steel skin,steel roof.It has a two color wainscoating in there colors.headers were a tight fit .They went in last.I enjoyed building it and hoping to do more of them. I heard some company is talking about 27 ft walls.I think that might be pushing it a bit.
framer
R- control has a 24 foot panel available (most of mine were) I used a forklift to put everything in place. piece of cake With the 56 foot Ingersole Rand and a 12 foot jib I could reach over 70 feet in the air or over the wholle house when I needed to..
I have one SIP wall in my house. Its also the garage wall. Not realizing it was a SIP wall I inadvertently sent a 3" drywall screw through it and into the wiring for the bedroom on the other side. My stud finder indicated their might have been a stud there but obviously there wasn't.
It was my fault for not thinking about wiring being 5' up the garage wall since the garage is 3' lower than the house. I could have just as easily sent that screw through the wire if it were a stud wall. I now have a stud and wire finder combo unit. Repairing the wire was a pretty nasty job too.
Out here in Almost West Virginia I've built two houses with SIPs, and live in one of them. Very strong and wind-proof, if that is important to where you're building. We get all the wind in the world blowing over a low mountain range, across two miles of corn and soybeans and then blasting into the side of our place. But the SIPs keep the wind and cold out better than anything else.
I agree with the information posted here about the wiring and plumbing and cabinet hanging. It helps if you first work with somebody who's built with them already so that you can learn their tricks and skills without having to make the same first-time mistakes.
go for it!
D&L
I have SIPs on the timber frame that I am building. You have to be careful to run wiring as you put everything together since you can't just go back later and easily add another light switch or light outlet in the roof.
My SIP's attached with spiral spikes, not hard to drive with a BIG framing hammer, but my frame is Doug Fir. I have also purchased single side SIPS to cover the outside of my existing milled cedar log cabin.
Frenchy, 17/12 roof??? You using a climbing harness to shingle that thing? I have a 8/12 and I can just barely walk on it with a clean set of hiking boots.
Robert
17/ 12 is nothing! the west wing is 27/12. I work on it with my deck shoes and its pretty rare that I trip over the shoe laces since I started tying a double knot in them. (I prefer using my deck shoes since they are sooo easy to slip on and off)
Oh, When I work on it I'm on a work platform most of the time. The rest of the time well if I fall on the short side it's proably less than a 28 foot fall and only 36 feet or so to the bricks on the driveway side...;-)
27/12? I'm getting a picture of one of those old style A frames ;). I guess with that pitch you can just setup scaffolding and reach out to the roof.
I tried wearing a set of court shoes since I figured that the stickly soles would give more grip, but I always felt like I was about to slip out of them. I figure a set of climbing shoes would be the best things.
Robert