I am curious to know what the cost is to buy, have delivered, and a shell erected for a SIP-based ‘shell’ in my area. I do not know of any builders specializing, or even experienced in SIP construction, but I think (I don’t really know), that some manufacturers will factory custom-cut panels and ship and arrange erection of the SIP panels, roofs included.
I’m not looking to save money on the SIP-appoach, but rather not being robbed because its not a common building practice in residential construction in the south. I’d probably shoot for ‘simple’ rather than complex, but would also aim for overage in performance than minimal (8 or more inches for the walls, at least 12 inches on the roof), so a big rectangular box with a 2:1 aspect ratio on foot print and 40′ on the short-side (3200 SqFt), or 3:1 with 32′ short-side, with 10′ ceilings before any vaulting.
Curious as to where the solid walls (no cutouts) pricing begins for SqFt-wall using a 1:1 pitch roof (maybe a little lower like a 30º). I’d think this simplicity would be easier for construction (erecting panels). I figure the shell for the 2:1 would require 2400 SqFt of 8″ walls (10′ high) and 3840 SqFt of 12″ ceiling panels.
This is only a Monday morning ‘thought’ experiment and any examples of cost should include delivery & erection (can be separated from material costs). I figure a dozen 32″x60″ window openings can be done either at the factory (per opening cost), or on the job site (seen this done on TV). I’d hope for support-design to minimize interior loading-walls (can this actually be achieved?), and the final intent is on a massive walout (daylight) basement wo/garage (unless its part of the basement footage).
Any SIP builders out there in or near North Georgia that could put numbers to this thought experiment?
Replies
Here are the SIP contractors and suppliers listed on SIPWeb.com for Georgia : http://www.sipweb.com/search/search_results_sip.asp
I would investigate the benifits of Thermasteel over OSB style SIPs and get a quote on both types. I strongly favor R-Control for their borate treated foam and quality control but there are several other well qualified OSB SIP suppliers out there. That said, I would likely go with Thermasteel if I were building today and the price was as competitive as it was when I built with R-Control.
As to custom cut, I had all of my panels custom cut at the R-Control factory at a rate of about $20/cut. Even on pre-cut panels, field adjustment is possible with the right tools.
Edit: I checked a few links in that list and it wasn't all that helpful. Here is the R-Control plant nearest you: http://www.alliedfoamprod.com/
And the Thermasteel home page: http://www.thermasteelpanels.com/
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Edited 7/25/2005 2:56 pm ET by Golden Wrecked Angle
GWA, thanks for those links--checking them now. Since you have built with them before, can you give an idea as to the $/SqFt for panel cost in raw material, not including delivery or erection?
I find this to be commonplace to not publish on the Internet, and the one (1) I found yesterday was $3.90/SqFt for their thickest panels (OSB).
I just went to both those links. First, link shows a company within 30-minutes of me (sweet). I'll need to contact them on pricing, delivery, and erection as an idea. The second link and the product concerns me, though. While I have nothing against steel framing (this could be ignorance, though), I have to ask about the added cost of a) exterior sheathing, and b) interior sheathing.
Edited 7/26/2005 8:29 am ET by Nuke
My cost on the panels 2 1/2 or 3 years ago was quite a bit lower than panel costs today, but so was conventional construction. I spent about $2.00/S.F. for the walls and about $2.35/S.F. for the roof. That is raw panel cost only. It does not include the cost of adhesive, splines, fasteners, factory cuts, dimensional lumber, etc.. By my rough estimate SIPs amounted to about a 15% increase in the cost of my shell, but that is a very hard number to factor accurately because it's shell, insulation, construction time, and so much more. I didn't get too serious about running the numbers both ways. I knew I was going with SIPs so I didn't waste much time figuring the costs in another direction.
The only way I can tell you to compare costs accurately is to bid it with panels vs. conventional frame and decide how long it will take to make up the difference in energy savings. Bottom line... Spending an extra $20/month on your mortgage to save $70/month on your utility bill makes good economic sense.
If you will do a search for Structural Insulated Panels here there are quite a few threads that cover their benefits and shortcomings. You might also want to search for threads on the "Mooney Wall" for an excellent way to do highly efficient conventional framing that very well might rival SIP's performance.
On the energy savings, I can attest to the fact that it's pretty substantial with SIPs, but (and this is a very big but) you must have an HVAC system designed for an ultra energy efficient house. I cannot stress that enough.
What you will probably discover, if you have the system designed by a qualified engineer, is that you will need much less HVAC than you will need for conventional construction. That difference alone will start helping you recover the extra cost of a SIP shell. I recommend Richard Rue of Energy Wise Structures http://www.energywisestructures.com/ for the mechanical system design. He did our system and his fees were some of the best money I spent.
You should probably know that most HVAC designers will make fun of you when you hand them a set of Energy Wise Specs and load calculations. My HVAC installer went so far as to oversize the duct work in our house by 30% without telling me because he was absolutely convinced that I would need more air. Yea, thanks buddy... #%%#*^!!!
The system works perfectly as designed in spite of the installer. He didn't even hook up the condensate drain to the drain line provided on the downstairs air handler so I got a nice flood in the house one day. (Final draw? Ha - No check for you!!) The volume of water surprised me, so out of curiosity I ran the condensate drain into a one gallon jug for a while so I could measure how much water was being squeezed out of the air in our home. I had to empty that jug 4 or five times a day. The upstairs air handler was probably squeezing more water out of the system than the downstairs. That is where oversized systems will hurt you the most.
An oversized system doesn't run long enough to squeeze all that moisture out of the air, so many ultra tight houses, with over sized systems, often have mold problems. The systems also short cycle, which means that they kick on for a minute or two and "cool" the air without "conditioning" it then kick back off. They will cycle on and off like that all day long - constantly running in their least efficient mode and never long enough to actually do their job. It's like sitting in your car in stop and go traffic on a hot and muggy afternoon - gas mileage sucks and maintenance costs increase.
Anyway - there is tons of good info on this site for SIPs, and Richard Rue will fill your ear with more than you ever wanted to know as well. In many ways SIPs are a whole different ballgame than conventional frame construction. Take your time and do the home work and you will be delighted with the results. Good luck!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
GWA, all good information. BTW, I was sold on SIPS more than a decade ago. In fact, it was probably the mid-1980's when watching TOS when a barn renovation into a home turned into a completely new-construction virtual barn. Of course, the used timberframing, but the one thing they learned in their process was while it was winter outside, the body heat accumulation from the workers inside the closed shell more than kept it comfortable. I was sold.
I did investigae about 5 years ago, but I couldn't find anything in Gerogia, and what I did find was expensive. This approach in the south for residential was deemed unconventional, and worse: luxury. So, it was an expensive option. I think, though, SIPS have finally made some good inroads into the south, and some of the southern mentality of 'insulation is for cold climates' ideas.
I have recognized the design differences in HVAC as well with such a tight environment, and the need to assist the interior climate with an air-to-air exchange system, but you make an excellent point about the monthly mortgage differences vs. the monthly HVAC costs as a consideration. What is nuts is that around me their are electrical coops (I have Jackson EMC), but they do not encourage SIPS residential construction. Imagine the EMC load reduction, or demand growth inhibitor, that a 25% market penetration could produce during hot summers.
But, I must say a big rectangular box with a 3200 SqFt footprint for $50K with R34+ insulating performance (for walls, roof, and floor!) is very tempting.
There are better ways than air-to-air exchange. Why design in air leaks unless you have to? I have an outside air intake with a CO sensor that will open a fresh air intake if CO levels ever start building. I doubt it will ever open.
You would be surprised at how much fresh air is pulled in through those high quality windows and doors. Especially if you have active children!
Get the system sized right and let it "condition" the air. That's the real key.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
CO sensor or CO2 sensor? And where did you find it?
Sorry - that should have read CO2 sensor, and my installer ordered it from a local supplier. And I'm actually still waiting for that ##$%^&% to find the time to pick up and install the sensor. (Final draw? HA - No check for you!) At least I managed to get him out to pull the non-programable thermostats and install the ones specifed, after he swapped out the inccorect condenser units he tried to sneak in on me and got the upstairs air handler hooked up to the upstairs condenser and the downstairs unit hooked up to the downstairs air handler. He had them reversed initially. Oh, it's a much longer list... but I'll stop. (Did I already say, "final draw - HA, no check for you!?")
Richard Rue http://www.energywisestructures.com specified the sensor but I don't have the specs in front of me right now. I've got about $800 left from my HVAC contract so I'll probably look up a sensor in the next couple of weeks, get one ordered and try and have it installed before winter. The duct and baffle are already installed. I took care of that little oversight myself. (Did I already say...? Awe, never mind.)
As many times a day as the doors and windows get opened on our house right now I'm not too worried about CO2 build-up but I would like to have the insurance in place before we button up for winter hibernation.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
I'm curious, where does the incoming air come from when you are running the dryer, bathroom vent, or range hood? Does it come in through the same duct and baffle?
It's a dedicated six inch rigid duct running to a gable wall intake grill. There are no exhaust vents anywhere near it.
It could have been run trhough the roof much easier but I wanted to keep the roof penetrations to a single waste vent stack.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Makes sense. I wonder if there is a way to run the waste vent stack to a gable end as well.
Sure, just make dang sure it's not the same gable end as you fresh air intake duct!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Maybe build the house so the two opposing gable vents are along the predominant direction of the wind in your area. Surprisingly, my POS lot actually has wind blowing from one direction 90% of the time. Perception? Maybe, but its always coming from that given direction on my lot.
BTW, CO and CO2 are both bad, but CO being worse. CO2 will be a heavier molecule and and be dangerous by means of sufficating you. CO, on the other hand, will react with O2 and not just displace O2 byt chemically remove it.
GWA, where are you planning on installing the sensor in the home? Will this be a ceiling-mounted sensor, or one located within the HVAC system itself?
CO is a byproduct of incomplete combustion and if he is using a heat pump (don't remember if he said) there is very limited sources for CO. And even if using a fuel buring furance CO is an indicate of a fault and an alarm should be sounded.But CO2 is given off with normal breathing. So it would be a good indication if the air in the house is "stale" and needs ventaliation.So it is appropratie to use CO2 for an automatic vent control, but not CO. At least not in houses. I think that road tunnels "might" use CO for control of ventilation, but even if they that is very different from a house.
I just spoke with a rep from the gainesville r-control plant and they only supply panels. Can anyone recommend someone to convert a standard plan to panel construction.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom, what this Allied Foam Products? They do not offer to erect the panels? That's too bad as finding someone experienced enough in this part of the country will be difficult. That's ok, but do you mind my asking if you got panel pricing ($/SqFt) for the various thicknesses?
I got panel pricing from them. They faxed a sheet with all the pricing right over to me. How soon are you looking to do a project. I hope to have one under my belt by next summer.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Timeframe is open, but information known ahead of time so one can determine gold or iron costs is always nice. :)
I sent you an e-mail privately.Tom
Douglasville, GA
I replied, with a better email addy. :) Who was your contact at Allied Foam Products? Did they offer to mail you pricing if no fax?
Interesting, I never received the reply. I'm sure they would mail out th pricing info. Jim Clark was the contact I spoke with.Tom
Douglasville, GA