I just worked with SIPs (structural insulated panels) for the first time this week. I’ve been hearing their praises sung now for a while, so I was interested to finally work with them. I can’t say that I was particularly impressed, but I wasn’t put off by them either. I’m really not sure what to think at this point, so I’m wondering whether anyone who’s worked with them has strong opinions either way. Do they in fact create a superior building over conventional framing with the latest insulation techniques?
Curious to know.
Replies
I am also looking for information from tose with practical experience using SIP's. Looks like a great way to go but nearly all the info I have seen is from TV or manufacturor hype. Any real experiences out there??
Tom: I have put up two SIP panel houses , one of them with SIPs on the roof, and like the system for the most part. If you use them for the roof, be sure to make them long enough to form the overhangs also. Our architect didn't want overhangs built with SIPs , so the customer paid dearly to have us stick frame them after the fact. The electrician I work with does not like SIP panels at all, and will usually decline to work on one. After getting over the learning curve its a relatively easy way to build.
Give Frenchy a holler.
We're completing a two story 24' x 30' addition with SIP walls. Not understanding the construction, we went with the 'factory approved' installers, instead of my GC and his crew. The upshot? A large labor cost for installation (labor was 5X materials), but the shell was up and the roof trusses were installed in 2 1/2 days (we used the installer's crane to fly the trusses).
If I did it again, the local crew could have done the same amount of work (even without the crane) in about 4 days at a considerably lower price (about 25% of the factory guys)
Materials cost was actually a good 20% less than the stick method, and the insulation was already to go.
The biggest caveat I can give on the SIPS is to know where you'll be running electrical, plumbing, and mechanicals BEFORE you start construction. Snaking a plumbers bit through the wall to create new chases insn't difficult, its just annoying.
As far as insulation value. we went with a non-standard size (8.24 inch wall overall) to give us a R-30+ system with a R-60 roof. We'll see this winter how good it is. The non standard size was ordered as my wife wanted a high efficiency wall, so we went up one size which would slide over a 2x8 plate, instead if the normal 2x6.
What didn't you like about them?
I'm very biased about them; easy to use, inexpensive, great structural integrity and energy savings. What's not to like?
How do you fix them if the sheathing rots out or what if you want to add in a window later, or run some new cable?
I like standard framed walls because they are easy to change, add on, easy to fix etc....
How flexible is the SIP system?
I would be very interested to hear from someone who has lived in a SIP house for an extended period.
What have been the benefits?, drawbacks, any unforeseen moisure problems etc. etc.
Inquiring minds need to know!
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Hmmm....let me see if I can answer your questions. Sheathing doesn't rot out in properly constructed walls of any type...so that's not an issue. It's simple to add a window...in most, you can add any type of opening under 4' without a header. Can't say that with regular walls. Moisture issues I think Mr. T asked about....don't know what you're referring to. SIPs are simply another framing method; they are only as good as the people installing them...if you have to worry about rotting, well, there's something else wrong besides the SIPS.
Running another cable is no problem; the brand I use already has channels at both horiztonal and vertical spacing built in at the factory. Want to run another wire? Just locate the spot, drill your hole, and you've got a built-in wire chase. Not like trying to run a fish tape through a 90 year old wall full of dead cats and insulation!
Effeciency? Huge. You talking about construction, or energy? Either one it's a win. Must be why they use them so much at the South Pole. My own home (timberframe with SIPs on outside), uses as much gas in a winter as my neighbors log home does in a month. Ditto for the framed house next door (they spend about three times what we do).
Drawbacks? Initial expense is higher than similar materials...but not overly so, particularly when you compare the effeciency. OSB facings can become dented from straps, so getting some panels on can be a bear. Framing stage might seem more expensive in some areas, depending on your labor rate...but savings come down teh road in insulation. Advantages? I can have a house up faster than most people, and save money in the end. They are totall flexible as far as room layout and planning go, and can offer very serious competition for small builders or DIYers'.
Edited 7/29/2002 7:00:27 PM ET by JASON_MI
"Sheathing doesn't rot out in properly constructed walls of any type...so that's not an issue."
Not all walls or roofs are properly constructed 100% of the time, rot happens and it is an issue.
What if you had a roof leak and it rotted out the sheathing on the SIP panel. How would you fix it, rip out the entire panel and replace it? What if it was a wall SIP that had its sheathing rotted, same thing?
What if a couple years down the road you want to run some new electrical circuits. How do you do it on a finished house with SIP walls?
I like the increase in effeciency but it just seems a very inflexible system once the house is built. At least with stick frame construction it is a modular system that is easy to fix and modify.
27Sean,
Yep...if you want to run a new wire through the wall a couple years down the road, like I said, the panels we use already have raceways built in. Wiring is simple and straightforward once the outlet/switchbox holes are cut. Those raceways will always be there.
Adding on isn't any more of a problem than it'd be for regular interior walls, given common sense and basic good construction practices...you can fasten a new wall or stud just about anywhere you want.
As far as rot goes, yep, that'd suck. A lot. You'd probably have to replace the whole panel. But right now I'm replacing sections of wall on a stud-framed house, and I've got to say I can't see it being any easier or harder (doing that with SIPs) than what I'm doing now. Probably pretty even, given experiences. We've used them on remodels where you've got to slide them in from the end...you'd have to figure out a similar method.
I really like the product and hope I get a chance to work with it in the future. I still don't think it should be used for roofs though, of course that is just my opinion. The best application in my mind is for timber framed houses. I don't know if it will ever go mainstream though. I would think metal framing is next in line.
They built a small (100 homes) tract home development by my house and every single house was framed completely in metal. It is only a matter of time before most houses will be framed this way.
Thanks for the information.
I've lived in two SIP-built houses, one for three years and the current house for two. Both were (are) tighter and more solid and I'd do it again if I had to move. I'm in a very windy area and the houses didn't shake or leak cold or hot.
Let me confirm the information on installing new windows and doors. With our SIPs an opening less than 4'wide and greater than 12" from a corner or the ceiling can be cut out without needing a header. The foam can be channeled out to slide in a 2x to create nailing surfaces from the inside if you're adding an opening.
My SIPS have vertical and horizontal channels pre-drilled in them at specified distances. Inserting a short run of wire would be easy to do, turning a corner of the house would be difficult. Access to the top and bottom plates from the attic and basement would be important.
Plumbing cannot be in the SIPs that I've used. Pipes on outside walls have to be in chases. Otherwise run the plumbing through interior walls.
Drywall goes up real nice! But if you are hanging cabinets or shelving or heavy antique mirrors on an outside wall you should consider installing a 1x4 or 6 on the outside wall with a lot of 2 1/2" deck screws to grab into the OSB skin, and then hanging your cabinet or shelf. I've had no problems with the shelves and cabinets that I've hung and overloaded the past five years, but I was nervous at first about not being able to fasten into studs. Or you could install a horizontal piece of 1/2 plywood to hang your cabinets and not put drywall over that strip.
No Moisture problems so far. If the outside layer of OSB were to rot due to a leak or bad drainage I imagine I would fix the leak, take off the siding, brace the wall depending on how wide a portion had rotted (say over 2 or 3 feet wide), cut out just the OSB with my blade set at 9/16", pry off the OSB from the foam and top and bottom plates, and then install a new piece of ply with adhesive onto the foam and screws into the plates, then reside. Hope I never have to, but I don't think it would be any harder than replacing rotted outside wall studs.
Go for it!
D&L
"It is only a matter of time before most houses will be framed this way."
In the past few years, I've heard that about steel trusses, steel framed walls, SIPs, Icynene insulation, Wet blown in celulose insulation, ICFs, wood foundations, and countless other things. So I hope you'll understand if I'm a little skeptical.
The trouble with political jokes is that they get elected.
I understand completely, but when a 100 tract home development uses it (and these where small, budget homes) I think it says something.
This is the first time I have seen residental metal framing or any alternative type building methods (like SIPS) used in such quantity.
It was a very weird feeling when you walked onto the jobsite and didn't see any wood.
I wish I took a picture, if I see another tract going up in all metal I will snap a picture and share it here.
"when a 100 tract home development uses it I think it says something"
I don't agree. It only means that one particular company tried it out because they thought it would be cheaper or sell better.
A company near Sprinfgield, Illinois tried it a few years back - lots of small steel homes real cheap. But they soon switched back to all wood framing.
No single framing system will ever be the answer for everybody.
Never trust a stockbroker who's married to a travel agent.
Use the search feature on this board. Type DeWalt. There's many recent postings there on this very subject.
Er....one of us is on the wrong thread...
Yea, there was some kind of stall and glitch when I posted. Couldn't find my post when I looked later, either. You're okay, I'm not.
As a distributor for a Canadian manufacturer of EPS panels here in Pa. I will add my 2 cents. There are Pros and Cons for both convetional 2x framing with batt insulation and SIP's. Before I became a distributor I was looking at becoming a distributor for several SIP manufacturer's, but came across a panel that I like to refer to as a Hybrid panel that takes the best elements of conventional framing and SIP's and comnbining them. One of the faults of fiberglass insulation is that is allow air (moisture) to pass through it. If there is any type of air movement into the wall cavity the insulating value of fiberglass is compromised. If the fiberglass is replased with EPS foam the problem goes away. That is where SIP's have the upper hand. Unfortunately SIP's are a little harder to work with than conventional 2x framing until the framing crew has done a few projects. What the company I represent has done is taken 2x6 and 2x8 I-Joist and replace the dimentional lumber, giving total control of the quality and straightness of the stud (I-joist). Profiled EPS panels are then placed between these I-joist to create an solid wall.Top and bottom plates are installed with a 1/4 inch foam backer rod to stop any air movement between the foam and the plate. A second plate is supplied and site installed. All window and door openings are factory installed at no extra cost. The biggest advantage is that the learning curve to install them is about 30 minutes. Allthough I still believe there are situations where SIP's have an advantage and we use them when the instance arises. As far as the question as to whether they create a superior structure, having done 6 houses for architests own personal homes speakes for it self. All were looking at using some type of SIP and not conventional framing. Hope this helps with your search for answers to this all confusing discussion between stick built and SIP's.Picture enclosed.
John